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Thread started 06/17/16 2:39am

MattyJam

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Prince's refusal to let The Time and The Family reform under their original bandnames.

In the past, even when I didn't necessarily agree with some of Prince's decisions (such as his stance on YouTube), I could at least understand where he was coming from.
But his treatment of the original bandmates in The Time and The Family, refusing to let them reform under the names that made them famous and forcing them to reform under The Original 7ven and fDeluxe respectively was just plain cold and indefensible.

What was Prince's reason for doing this?
[Edited 6/17/16 2:42am]
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Reply #1 posted 06/17/16 2:46am

jaypotton

Sometimes he could be a bit of a dick! Oh and likely no money in it for him. Also in later years he was at pains to ensure people knew he was behind ALL of that great music and started to inceasingly include Time songs (and others) in his sets.

Harcore fans knew who Jamie Starr was but the general public didn't.

'I loved him then, I love him now and will love him eternally. He's with our son now.' Mayte 21st April 2016 = the saddest quote I have ever read! RIP Prince and thanks for everything.
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Reply #2 posted 06/17/16 2:55am

MattyJam

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jaypotton said:

Sometimes he could be a bit of a dick! Oh and likely no money in it for him. Also in later years he was at pains to ensure people knew he was behind ALL of that great music and started to inceasingly include Time songs (and others) in his sets.

Harcore fans knew who Jamie Starr was but the general public didn't.



Surely anyone who knows The Times music would know about the Prince connection? And I can't imagine anyone listening to The Family without first being a Prince fan.
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Reply #3 posted 06/17/16 3:01am

jaypotton

MattyJam said:

jaypotton said:

Sometimes he could be a bit of a dick! Oh and likely no money in it for him. Also in later years he was at pains to ensure people knew he was behind ALL of that great music and started to inceasingly include Time songs (and others) in his sets.

Harcore fans knew who Jamie Starr was but the general public didn't.

Surely anyone who knows The Times music would know about the Prince connection? And I can't imagine anyone listening to The Family without first being a Prince fan.


Aha but you say that with the benefit of hindsight AND being a big Prince fan! I am not sure the general public really knew (or cared).

Not sure how old you are Matty but I remember the excitement of trawling the wrekka stow and finding these albums that were produced by a mysterious dude called Jamie Starr. I was sure they sounded like Prince but not exactly the same. Oh great times! Not sure how long the "secret" stayed a secret of course.

Saying that though just look at how many websites carried articles following Prince's death around the theme of "ten songs you never knew Prince wrote" etc

'I loved him then, I love him now and will love him eternally. He's with our son now.' Mayte 21st April 2016 = the saddest quote I have ever read! RIP Prince and thanks for everything.
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Reply #4 posted 06/17/16 3:02am

inovio

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Unless you're a musican you may not understand how to music industry works.

Eye wanna make Love to U, 2 times maybe 3,
If u want to go 4 or 5, Baby that's alright with me,
eye will be your little baby,
eye can be your big strong man....
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Reply #5 posted 06/17/16 3:03am

jaypotton

Oh and he explicitly "reclaimed" Nothing Compares 2 U from Sinead O'Conner by starting to play it live (no mention of The Family)

'I loved him then, I love him now and will love him eternally. He's with our son now.' Mayte 21st April 2016 = the saddest quote I have ever read! RIP Prince and thanks for everything.
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Reply #6 posted 06/17/16 3:04am

jaypotton

inovio said:

Unless you're a musican you may not understand how to music industry works.


Care to say more?

'I loved him then, I love him now and will love him eternally. He's with our son now.' Mayte 21st April 2016 = the saddest quote I have ever read! RIP Prince and thanks for everything.
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Reply #7 posted 06/17/16 3:18am

bluegangsta

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If they couldn't make it with their original names, then isn't tat the litmus test?

Always cry 4 love, never cry 4 pain.
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Reply #8 posted 06/17/16 3:19am

bluegangsta

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And while I'm here, I think The Original Se7en and FDeluxe are much better names.

Always cry 4 love, never cry 4 pain.
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Reply #9 posted 06/17/16 3:47am

blacksignparad
e

.
.
What's more baffling is that he never made the family and madhouse albums in cd format. Can you believe that? Now that they're all over the Internet we, as in those that only had cassettes of them, can all finally listen to them again.
.
.
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Reply #10 posted 06/17/16 4:00am

BartVanHemelen

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blacksignparade said:

. . What's more baffling is that he never made the family and madhouse albums in cd format.

.

All three were available on CD.

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Reply #11 posted 06/17/16 4:10am

blacksignparad
e

BartVanHemelen said:



blacksignparade said:


. . What's more baffling is that he never made the family and madhouse albums in cd format.

.


All three were available on CD.


.
Yeah? I never saw any available the last 20 years. Did they just make one batch then pull them?
.
.
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Reply #12 posted 06/17/16 4:50am

PacManPlus

.

Yep. I have all three on CD. It's *vinyl* I can't find them on.

.

The 'Family' CD was a Japanese import (complete with OBI). The two 'Madhouse' albums were from here in the States.

.

.

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Reply #13 posted 06/17/16 4:53am

lwr001

bluegangsta said:

And while I'm here, I think The Original Se7en and FDeluxe are much better names.

you joking right

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Reply #14 posted 06/17/16 4:54am

MattyJam

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I wonder if Prince kept hold of some unresolved animosity, especially towards Jam & Lewis, St Paul and Jesse Johnson. Perhaps this is why he refused to help them out when the bands wanted to reform.

It's no secret that he wrote Dream Factory about Paul, and refered to him as "punk of the month." And I think he felt bitter about Jam & Lewis leaving the fold when they did and Jesse has ran his mouth off in the past about Prince.
[Edited 6/17/16 4:57am]
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Reply #15 posted 06/17/16 5:04am

FUNKYNESS

lwr001 said:

bluegangsta said:

And while I'm here, I think The Original Se7en and FDeluxe are much better names.

you joking right

lol Man, that Origingal Se7en has to be the worst band name in R&B history. FDeluxe is just plain horrible - just Deluxe would have been better than that.

I backed Prince's right to retain the names. The Time and THe Family are Prince products. No one would think that Proctor and Gamble would have to give up the name Tide just because some employees left the company and start making detergent on their own. An understanding of the value and concept of branding supports Prince.

Save America - Stop Illegal Immigration. God bless America. PEACE
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Reply #16 posted 06/17/16 5:09am

MattyJam

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FUNKYNESS said:



lwr001 said:




bluegangsta said:


And while I'm here, I think The Original Se7en and FDeluxe are much better names.




you joking right



lol Man, that Origingal Se7en has to be the worst band name in R&B history. FDeluxe is just plain horrible - just Deluxe would have been better than that.



I backed Prince's right to retain the names. The Time and THe Family are Prince products. No one would think that Proctor and Gamble would have to give up the name Tide just because some employees left the company and start making detergent on their own. An understanding of the value and concept of branding supports Prince.



Original Se7en is all the more disasterous when you consider that Jesse quit the band as soon as they dropped their album.

Still, Condensate was a worthy addition to their 80s work imo.
[Edited 6/17/16 6:10am]
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Reply #17 posted 06/17/16 5:15am

keenly

MattyJam said:

In the past, even when I didn't necessarily agree with some of Prince's decisions (such as his stance on YouTube), I could at least understand where he was coming from. But his treatment of the original bandmates in The Time and The Family, refusing to let them reform under the names that made them famous and forcing them to reform under The Original 7ven and fDeluxe respectively was just plain cold and indefensible. What was Prince's reason for doing this? [Edited 6/17/16 2:42am]

He was being a dick. Totally disgraceful.

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Reply #18 posted 06/17/16 5:16am

keenly

inovio said:

Unless you're a musican you may not understand how to music industry works.

That is not the point. Prince could have been kind hearted and let them make some money. He was very selfish at times.

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Reply #19 posted 06/17/16 6:21am

MattyJam

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keenly said:



inovio said:


Unless you're a musican you may not understand how to music industry works.



That is not the point. Prince could have been kind hearted and let them make some money. He was very selfish at times.



Yeah, I mean these people were his friends, fiancee, schoolmates... Regardless of what went down back in the day, by the time these two bands were reforming in the mid-late 00's, Prince was a multi-millionaire/legend and they just wanted to play together again for the fans who enjoyed their music. It takes a very petty and selfish man to stand in the way of that.
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Reply #20 posted 06/17/16 6:27am

MattyJam

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jaypotton said:



MattyJam said:


jaypotton said:

Sometimes he could be a bit of a dick! Oh and likely no money in it for him. Also in later years he was at pains to ensure people knew he was behind ALL of that great music and started to inceasingly include Time songs (and others) in his sets.

Harcore fans knew who Jamie Starr was but the general public didn't.



Surely anyone who knows The Times music would know about the Prince connection? And I can't imagine anyone listening to The Family without first being a Prince fan.


Aha but you say that with the benefit of hindsight AND being a big Prince fan! I am not sure the general public really knew (or cared).

Not sure how old you are Matty but I remember the excitement of trawling the wrekka stow and finding these albums that were produced by a mysterious dude called Jamie Starr. I was sure they sounded like Prince but not exactly the same. Oh great times! Not sure how long the "secret" stayed a secret of course.

Saying that though just look at how many websites carried articles following Prince's death around the theme of "ten songs you never knew Prince wrote" etc



But that makes no sense... He was happy to give them songwriting credit back in the 80s even though he wrote the music by himself. Fast forward 25 years, and everybody who knows the music of The Time/Family is aware that Prince was the mastermind behind them, and yet he won't let them record new material under their original bandname.
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Reply #21 posted 06/17/16 6:32am

lastdecember

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jaypotton said:

Oh and he explicitly "reclaimed" Nothing Compares 2 U from Sinead O'Conner by starting to play it live (no mention of The Family)

In all fairness though, most did not know at the time that PRINCE wrote the song, and even less almost NONE "mainstream wise" even know that the Family recorded this song first. We fail to realize that the Family were a protege band of his that did not even have a hit single, "Screams of Passion" was hardly a well known hit, so unless you were in the Prince world then we were the only ones knowing who these artists are. I mean do we think mainstream america know who Jill Jones, Eric Leeds, Madhouse etc... are?


"We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F
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Reply #22 posted 06/17/16 6:40am

novabrkr

lastdecember said:

jaypotton said:

Oh and he explicitly "reclaimed" Nothing Compares 2 U from Sinead O'Conner by starting to play it live (no mention of The Family)

In all fairness though, most did not know at the time that PRINCE wrote the song, and even less almost NONE "mainstream wise" even know that the Family recorded this song first. We fail to realize that the Family were a protege band of his that did not even have a hit single, "Screams of Passion" was hardly a well known hit, so unless you were in the Prince world then we were the only ones knowing who these artists are. I mean do we think mainstream america know who Jill Jones, Eric Leeds, Madhouse etc... are?


I was a bit too young at the time when Sinead's version was released to have much of an impression on what it was like then, but I remember seeing it always being mentioned that the song was written by Prince when it was mentioned in magazines and books a little bit later.

I think the "2 U" in the title gave many people the idea that it was written by Prince in any case.

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Reply #23 posted 06/17/16 6:40am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

bluegangsta said:

If they couldn't make it with their original names, then isn't tat the litmus test?

well the Time was actually going pretty good. As the Time, it was Prince who actually hindered their further success. The Time would have been huge in 1984 onward. But firing Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis which caused Monte to leave, and Morris to be done with it. The Time on the Purple Rain tour rounds, videos, performances etc
.
The Family during that period I know would have been big as well.
But again Prince (as he said) had his hands in to many different things. Didn't utilized the UTCM movie to promote the proteges etc The Family was in existance since 1984 but only had 1 live performance. And even when they were on the 6.7.1985 Birthday show, that one was so private that it couldn't be used as a promotion for them.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

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Reply #24 posted 06/17/16 6:42am

dualboot

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Jellybean got two short ends of the straw with this.
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Reply #25 posted 06/17/16 6:43am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

FUNKYNESS said:

lwr001 said:

you joking right

lol Man, that Origingal Se7en has to be the worst band name in R&B history. FDeluxe is just plain horrible - just Deluxe would have been better than that.

I backed Prince's right to retain the names. The Time and THe Family are Prince products. No one would think that Proctor and Gamble would have to give up the name Tide just because some employees left the company and start making detergent on their own. An understanding of the value and concept of branding supports Prince.

It was a (former) Slave move. almost like someone with a poverty mentality. Someone who advocates for artists and musicians (except) he never messed with Sheila E or Vanity (both names he helped create)

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In
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Reply #26 posted 06/17/16 6:47am

callimnate

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keenly said:



MattyJam said:


In the past, even when I didn't necessarily agree with some of Prince's decisions (such as his stance on YouTube), I could at least understand where he was coming from. But his treatment of the original bandmates in The Time and The Family, refusing to let them reform under the names that made them famous and forcing them to reform under The Original 7ven and fDeluxe respectively was just plain cold and indefensible. What was Prince's reason for doing this? [Edited 6/17/16 2:42am]

He was being a dick. Totally disgraceful.


Last time I called him a dick I was bombarded with PMs calling me insensitive, so I'll stay out of this one. wink
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Reply #27 posted 06/17/16 6:54am

databank

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MattyJam said:

In the past, even when I didn't necessarily agree with some of Prince's decisions (such as his stance on YouTube), I could at least understand where he was coming from. But his treatment of the original bandmates in The Time and The Family, refusing to let them reform under the names that made them famous and forcing them to reform under The Original 7ven and fDeluxe respectively was just plain cold and indefensible. What was Prince's reason for doing this? [Edited 6/17/16 2:42am]

My take is that it was about the masters and was advised by P's lawyers.

WB owns the masters for all The Time albums. I'm pretty sure Prince wanted to get them back at some point.

The status of The Family's master is unknown: might be Prince, might be WB.

In all cases affirming his ownership of the band's names made sure that he could have a claim on the masters when trying to reclaim them from WB, and it helped making sure the original bands couldn't claim the masters for themselves after 35 years.

In the mid 2000's Prince filed copyright notices for several band names including Mazarati and Good Questions (2 bands he was hardly involved with, not at all even in the case of GQ). Incidentally Prince owns the masters for those 2 Paisley Park albums: I see no other purpose than making sure he could do his best to keep a hold on them. I am pretty sure that if Prince had had any legal way to prevent Sheila E., Carmen Electra, Eric Leeds or Jill Jones to use their names he would have done the same for the sake of the masters falloff

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Reply #28 posted 06/17/16 7:05am

Militant

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As far as Prince was concerned, "The Time" was him and Morris. That's it.

During the "Corporate World" sessions, it was *literally* just Prince and Morris doing the album, aside from saxophone overdubs from Candy and backing vocals from Elisa, Margie Cox and Jana Jade.

To Prince, it didn't matter what other musicians were performing the songs, because they weren't writing thm. They were glorified session guys. Hell, Prince's own crew like Dez and Lisa had more input on The Time's songs than actual members of The Time!

To have an album released by "The Time", presumes that Prince is involved. And as the primary songwriter, I get where he's coming from.

As for The Family...... You've got a similar thing happening plus the fact that one of the singer is his ex-fiancee, so that adds a whole level of emotion to it.

At this point, I think both bands should be using their original names.

As a songwriter myself, if I put together (and financed, and owned) a project, I would be very wary of other bandmembers going off and doing that project without my involvement, too.



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Reply #29 posted 06/17/16 7:17am

MattyJam

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Militant said:

As a songwriter myself, if I put together (and financed, and owned) a project, I would be very wary of other bandmembers going off and doing that project without my involvement, too.


I'm pretty sure Warners would've been the ones to finance The Time and The Family, not Prince.
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