ufoclub said:

The very first sentence of your post: "In the wake of Prince's passing, something has dawned on me: Prince and his offbeat behavior with the caretaking of his music really cost him an opportunity to be a very special and extremely beloved entertainer." is false. Did you see what happened in Los Angeles? On the charts? He IS a special and beloved entertainer in the pop universe. One that is now passed away in real life.

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He IS special and beloved...in death. He could have had it in life throughout the later half of his career if he hadn't been so difficult getting his records out there to the public.

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The fact that you say this: "Yes, downloading the music by joining an online club is easier than ordering and getting a delivery or driving out and buying a CD," is very strange. Joining a club, paying membership is easier than paying $12.99 for a CD at Target? Wow. You have got to be the first person on Earth who loves doling out money for membership fees.

Aerogram said:

He's only going to be known forever as The musical genius of his era, his name associated with a colour and his very own symbol, a body of work that stretches as far as the eye can see, leaving a mountain of iconic imagery for future generations to refer to forever and a day.

But he "blew it"????

Good one.

All of those things were destined as of 1996 when he left WB. I'd compare Prince's business decisions over the last 20 years to Donald Trump... Trump may have a fortune today, but if you'd invested his then-wealth in an S&P index fund 20 years ago it would be worth a lot more. He's underperformed the mean. From a business perspective, Prince was the same way. His legacy would be even greater today if he'd made sure his live material was archived and made available for purchase in soundboard/professional quality. Thank God for people disobeying his instructions and taking illegal audio/video of his concerts or his greatness might have been lost forever. Granted, perhaps we'll find out that it's all safely in the Vault and that it was going to all be releaed someday... but that's hopeful speculation at this point.

ufoclub said:

The emotional outpouring now is proof that he didn't cause any serious damage by being difficult to fans. It's proof that he won out in the end. This explosion of testimonials and the online deluge of videos and music is more than any marketing firm could have engineered. It's also more than what happened with Elvis, Kurt Cobain or John Lennon in terms of suddenly work unveiled dramatically (both charitable, personal, and artistic). Inadvertently, he created a full knuckle punch of a wake. A wake up. Almost like how a tidal wave works.

He "won out in the end" ? by dying so young and unexpectedly that hardcore fans and music/media peers are shocked, while still being young enough themselves, and in their peak period of social media and mainstream media control, to create the tidal wave of their own youth on his behalf. It's an accident of time.

He may well also have continued keeping much of his work under wraps for another 20 or 30 years and then died. There wouldn't have been a large enough base who remembered or cared what might be in the vault to create more than a paddle bump. It's an accident of time.

[Edited 5/8/16 15:07pm]

beacheemom said:

To keep it simple: the way Prince was is what made us desire more of him; well besides his musical genius abilities. I mean, he didn't want to be like other artists, he wasn't like other artists. I understand the frustration of not being able to get to some of his music, but it kept us desiring. He was complex and so many different sides to him that made us normal folk shaking our heads wondering his motive behind some of his decisions. Bottom line is I believe he knew how special he was. He has stated in interviews he did not fame. He just wanted to make music and great music at that. His songs were his babies and he just wanted to protect them is all.

Agree with every word.

beacheemom said:

He was complex and so many different sides to him that made us normal folk shaking our heads wondering his motive behind some of his decisions.

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Wait a minute. Because the guy was a master musician and could write some incredible songs, that means everything he did was marvelous and us normal folk should shake our heads in wonder? If he dribbled the basketball with his elbow all of us normal folk should say, "Wow, remarkable" instead of saying, "That's a stupid way to play basketball"?

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Prince's brilliant musical acumen does not mean his decision making elsewhere was brilliant. Just because we shake our heads in wonder and awe over his guitar playing doesn't mean we have to shake our heads in wonder and awe over his NPG Music Club.

C

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The guy chose not to share his music readily. He kept making it, but for some reason he made his fans jump through hoops to get it.

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And I didn't even talk here about how he left no option at all for new fans, for young people to discover, obtain, and cherish his music.

I agree with this. I've been asking people to share with me their essential tracks from the past 10 years because I haven't been able to readily consume it. Hearing some of these tracks now, I think they're great. But even many serious fans are limited in time and energy, and my experience with "Crystal Ball" permanently soured me to fan club releases and the like.

More importantly, in talking to young people these past few weeks, I'm finding that they haven't been exposed to Prince beyond Purple Rain and Little Red Corvette. It's frankly a shame. Having all of this stuff up on YouTube was likely not what Prince would have wanted, but it certainly is giving people access to stuff that should have been widely heard a long time ago.

Cloreen said:

Cloreen said:

ufoclub said:

The very first sentence of your post: "In the wake of Prince's passing, something has dawned on me: Prince and his offbeat behavior with the caretaking of his music really cost him an opportunity to be a very special and extremely beloved entertainer." is false. Did you see what happened in Los Angeles? On the charts? He IS a special and beloved entertainer in the pop universe. One that is now passed away in real life.

.

He IS special and beloved...in death. He could have had it in life throughout the later half of his career if he hadn't been so difficult getting his records out there to the public.

.

The fact that you say this: "Yes, downloading the music by joining an online club is easier than ordering and getting a delivery or driving out and buying a CD," is very strange. Joining a club, paying membership is easier than paying $12.99 for a CD at Target? Wow. You have got to be the first person on Earth who loves doling out money for membership fees.

Everyone on the planet switched to the ease of online transactions. you know that. It's changed the music biz.

Eileen said:

ufoclub said:

The emotional outpouring now is proof that he didn't cause any serious damage by being difficult to fans. It's proof that he won out in the end. This explosion of testimonials and the online deluge of videos and music is more than any marketing firm could have engineered. It's also more than what happened with Elvis, Kurt Cobain or John Lennon in terms of suddenly work unveiled dramatically (both charitable, personal, and artistic). Inadvertently, he created a full knuckle punch of a wake. A wake up. Almost like how a tidal wave works.

He "won out in the end" ? by dying so young and unexpectedly that hardcore fans and music/media peers are shocked, while still being young enough themselves, and in their peak period of social media and mainstream media control, to create the tidal wave of their own youth on his behalf. It's an accident of time.

He may well also have continued keeping much of his work under wraps for another 20 or 30 years and then died. There wouldn't have been a large enough base who remembered or cared what might be in the vault to create more than a paddle bump. It's an accident of time.

[Edited 5/8/16 15:07pm]

don't twist it into me saying that death was the win, I'm saying the public recognition and respect is the win.

FUNKYNESS said:

ufoclub said:

Cloreen said:

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He IS special and beloved...in death. He could have had it in life throughout the later half of his career if he hadn't been so difficult getting his records out there to the public.

.

The fact that you say this: "Yes, downloading the music by joining an online club is easier than ordering and getting a delivery or driving out and buying a CD," is very strange. Joining a club, paying membership is easier than paying $12.99 for a CD at Target? Wow. You have got to be the first person on Earth who loves doling out money for membership fees.

Everyone on the planet switched to the ease of online transactions. you know that. It's changed the music biz.

Sure, every major artist is making their music available online. I'm pretty sure that would have happened without Prince, just like proportional fonts would have happened without Steve Jobs.

The difference between Prince and other artists is that Prince made you join a "club" which overpromised and underdelivered. Rather than spending your money on a specific item that you wanted to purchase, you paid a monthly fee and you got whatever Prince felt like giving you. And Prince didn't exactly open the vault for his loyal subjects -- he actually left them feeling fleeced and duped, and that's why his online ventures failed.

His latest collaboration with Tidal is no different: $9.99 for the sub-par 96kbit option geared toward Prince's hearing impaired audience or $19.99 for those who think it makes sense to pay $239.88 for 3 CDs worth of new music per year. I'll buy my 3 CDs and own my music for decades to come, thank you. Call me a crazy old fool who just doesn't "get" new technology, but I understand when I'm being "taken" and that has nothing to do with the method of distribution.

And I have to laugh at ignorant statements like FUNKYNESS's:

"fans" have come out to keep on bitching about what isnt on the web and made easy to steal.

Everything is and always has been "on the web". Yes, I have purchased everything that has been available through legitimate channels, but, to illustrate my point, I could download Prince's entire discography as a single archived package right now without paying a cent to anyone. That is why I find it so bizarre that Prince made it difficult for people to buy things from him directly at a reasonable price and without some BS monthly fee. What was he thinking?

Indeed, it's the bootleggers, many of them in it for the love of the MUSIC and not the $$, who have leveraged the Internet to distribute some of Prince's best work. Since you all are fans, I am sure you know what I'm talking about: soundboard concerts, unofficial concert videos, out-of-print albums and extended singles, studio versions of unreleased material, music videos etc. All of these things Prince could have made available to the fans, but did not.

Sure, that's his prerogative to keep everything hoarded in his vault till the day he dies, but it's also my prerogative to say "eff that fool." If Prince doesn't know to use the Internet to his advantage, I do.

ufoclub said:

don't twist it into me saying that death was the win, I'm saying the public recognition and respect is the win.

Oh for pete's sake. Completely missed the point. OTOH, you believe "everyone on the planet" is doing online transactions, so in this particular case I will pass on restating.

Eileen said:

ufoclub said:

don't twist it into me saying that death was the win, I'm saying the public recognition and respect is the win.

Oh for pete's sake. Completely missed the point. OTOH, you believe "everyone on the planet" is doing online transactions, so in this particular case I will pass on restating.

Your point seems to be the labeling of the tidal wave of sympathy and the surprise flooding of video and audio an accident. But that doesn't change the fact that it is an inadvertent win for Prince's art and persona? See whats happened on the charts? The attitude of most of the news reports? The unveiling of all the charitable work which contradicts the previous public image of him?

I'm pointing out what has actually happened in reality right now. Not some imagined future in "20 or 30 years "

You believe that online consumption is not the major marketing shift in behavior by consumers for music?

https://www.boundless.com/users/235420/textbooks/business-fundamentals/adding-products-and-services-13/adding-products-and-services-52/examples-of-business-models-from-the-music-industry-245-15548/

and beyond that:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/01/buying-music-is-so-over/384790/

Eileen said:

Any musician who forces his fans to get his music illegally is doing something wrong. Prince could have had my money many times over but I guess he didn't need it..

[Edited 5/9/16 3:11am]

mynameisnotsusan said:

Exactly who's business practices and living beloved-ness should he have been closer to?

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How about Paul McCartney?

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The issue here is not having hits on the charts right now. I can only think of two old fogeys who charted songs on the pop charts: Sinatra at 65 with "New York, New York" and Cher at 52 with "Believe." No one is expecting Prince to be all over the modern charts. But what he could have had was what Paul McCartney has. As many have pointed out in this thread the younger set really have zero idea of Prince and his music. A song or two and a Dave Chapelle sketch. But Paul by not removing himself from the music bizz, by allowing his stuff on youtube where young people listen to music, has remained a performer who is not a "whatever ever happened to" question. Prince turned himself into that question for millions and millions...and not just young people. Many of the PURPLE RAIN fan set also wondered whatever happened to Prince.

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Taking your new material out of the record stores (amazon.com) and not allowing one snippet of your material to be listened to on youtube was not the business model to create.

lynx said:

Any musician who forces his fans to get his music illegally is doing something wrong. Prince could have had my money many times over but I guess he didn't need it..

[Edited 5/9/16 3:11am]

Nobody forces anyone to get music illegally. Do you realize how you sound?

Funkmeimfamous said:

I'm tore about this. . I think Prince recognised that the same people that own YouTube were the ones that owned Warner Brothers. Essentially he did not want big business to profit from his art. . I think it's admirable that Prince wasn't so obsessed with his celebrity that he was willing to overlook his own values.

Great answer. Prince had every right to say NO. Why couldn't people understand that ?

Wlcm2thdwn3 said:

Funkmeimfamous said:

I'm tore about this. . I think Prince recognised that the same people that own YouTube were the ones that owned Warner Brothers. Essentially he did not want big business to profit from his art. . I think it's admirable that Prince wasn't so obsessed with his celebrity that he was willing to overlook his own values.

Great answer. Prince had every right to say NO. Why couldn't people understand that ?

I think the problem is that too many people in this thread are hung up on Prince's moral value. That's not what is being asked or questioned.

Did his choices, for whatever reason he chose to do them, hinder new and casual listenders from being able to access his music? That's the question. Whether it was the right, wrong, morally-driven choice plays no role in one's answer. We, as fans, must exclude our experiences, as we can always find his music (illegally or not) because we know where and how to look for it outside of the typical means.

Prince eschewed typical means. And again, the questions posed is: Did this type of thinking keep more people from truling finding out who the music maker was and what all he did musically?

rocknrolldave said:

My thing with music is this: I don't like the whole 'iTunes exclusive bonus track'/ 'Best Buy Exclusive' thing, I think music should be INclusive not EXclusive. Music deserves to be heard, music should be available to buy for anyone who wants it, not given away once in newspaper and then impossible to find...etc etc... So that side of Prince's business model definitely left me behind.

The "exclusive bonus track" thing has been around for a while now, many musicians use it simply for more money. It's the old concept of limiting supply to increase demand, but I do think it backfires on the musicians.

Look at Lenny's Black and White America album, there's a "Target Deluxe Edition" that includes "What Do You Want From Me". It's my favorite track on the entire 22-song album, but I often wondered if the reason why the song never became popular was because Target was literally the ONLY place it could be purchased legally.

Wlcm2thdwn3 said:

Funkmeimfamous said:

I'm tore about this. . I think Prince recognised that the same people that own YouTube were the ones that owned Warner Brothers. Essentially he did not want big business to profit from his art. . I think it's admirable that Prince wasn't so obsessed with his celebrity that he was willing to overlook his own values.

Great answer. Prince had every right to say NO. Why couldn't people understand that ?

I guess the big question is, did he leave his music and videos up on OTHER video sharing websites? I do remember being able to see some of his videos on other sites such as Vimeo, but not a whole lot. Was Prince as aggressive in removing his music from non-YouTube sites?

Pokeno4Money said:

The "exclusive bonus track" thing has been around for a while now, many musicians use it simply for more money. It's the old concept of limiting supply to increase demand, but I do think it backfires on the musicians.

Look at Lenny's Black and White America album, there's a "Target Deluxe Edition" that includes "What Do You Want From Me". It's my favorite track on the entire 22-song album, but I often wondered if the reason why the song never became popular was because Target was literally the ONLY place it could be purchased legally.

Great point about the Lenny song. What I would change there is >>It's the old concept of limiting supply to increase demand<< What it actually is, is the old concept of a monopoly. Target wants a monopoly on a version of the album and Best Buy wants a monopoly on a version of the album etc. As you noted, limiting the supply of "What Do You Want From Me" didn't increase demand for the song. But it probably got a little extra traffic for Target, nothing that amounted to anything for Lenny, just a few more bucks in impulse sales at Target

Cloreen said:

Eileen said:

Pokeno4Money said:

The "exclusive bonus track" thing has been around for a while now, many musicians use it simply for more money. It's the old concept of limiting supply to increase demand, but I do think it backfires on the musicians.

Look at Lenny's Black and White America album, there's a "Target Deluxe Edition" that includes "What Do You Want From Me". It's my favorite track on the entire 22-song album, but I often wondered if the reason why the song never became popular was because Target was literally the ONLY place it could be purchased legally.

Great point about the Lenny song. What I would change there is >>It's the old concept of limiting supply to increase demand<< What it actually is, is the old concept of a monopoly. Target wants a monopoly on a version of the album and Best Buy wants a monopoly on a version of the album etc. As you noted, limiting the supply of "What Do You Want From Me" didn't increase demand for the song. But it probably got a little extra traffic for Target, nothing that amounted to anything for Lenny, just a few more bucks in impulse sales at Target

Exactly, only Target benefited from increased sales thanks to people like me who wanted the bonus tracks. However Lenny did benefit as well, up front, as his agreement with Target was no doubt more lucrative because of the bonus tracks exclusivity.

So basically it's a gamble for both the musician and the retailer. Would Lenny have made more money if he had allowed every retailer to sell the deluxe edition? Hard to say, without knowing how much more of an advance he got from Target and how many more CDs would have been sold through other retailers.

One of the most infamous "exclusive agreements" was the Best Buy/Chinese Democracy fiasco. Best Buy paid Guns N' Roses $14 million for the exclusive right to sell physical copies of the album in the US, and the album was a huge commercial failure. Eventually Best Buy marked down hundreds of thousands of unsold copies to just $1.99

Pokeno4Money said:

Exactly, only Target benefited from increased sales thanks to people like me who wanted the bonus tracks. However Lenny did benefit as well, up front, as his agreement with Target was no doubt more lucrative because of the bonus tracks exclusivity.

Oh yes, you're right about probable additional up-front money from places like Target for those exclusives. I was just thinking about increased popularity for the song. You are correct. And the GNR was another good example.

I came across another example today quite by accident. There is a really great site for learning guitar called Justinguitar.com where the guy who runs it teaches guitar completely free in his youtube videos and he is excellent at it. I just saw this message from him....

"I was of course gutted to hear about the passing of Prince and a lot of people have been asking about a tribute lesson and I really want to, but he pulled all the lessons of his songs I had done (including some that never went live!) and it nearly cost me my channel! So I'm reluctant to risk it again until it's clear what's going on - though it seems a few others have managed to get some done without them getting pulled... I'll do some as soon as I can."

Kind of sad that Prince wouldn't even let a video of somoeone teaching how to play one of his songs be allowed on the web don't you think?

(PS Sorry I can't figure out how to insert spaces between my pargraphs)

[Edited 5/13/16 9:03am]

It's not said that often, but Prince was a briliiant artist but a really poor businessman. What business decision or deal did he ever make that made him lots of money? He lost money on his Glam Slam clubs, Paisley Park records, etc, etc. He could always tour and bring in million$, so it never hurt him much but he just wasn't smart to take all his material off Youtube, etc. It cost him new fans and lots of revenue/profits in the end.

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But saying he was crappy at business is not a knock against him. He was an idealistic artist and that's what enabled him to make the music that we love so much.

Iamtheorg said:

lynx said:

Any musician who forces his fans to get his music illegally is doing something wrong. Prince could have had my money many times over but I guess he didn't need it..

[Edited 5/9/16 3:11am]

Nobody forces anyone to get music illegally. Do you realize how you sound?

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Illegal and Immoral are often far from the same thing.