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Then why is the song called "America"? The very title is making it explicit. Can you not see how you're going out of your way to avoid the obvious? Even when Prince expicitly calls the song "patriotic" you find a reason to avoid that explanation.
“The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
- Thomas Jefferson | |
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Now wait a second. "Patriotic", in the purest sense, can also mean taking arms against your own government if necessary. I just read the "America" lyrics, I see nothing that can be deemed "patriotic" in the bad sense. From the very first verse, he clearly points out how America is one-sided and won't accept nothing outside the established views. I do think he denounces the very thing midnightmover is referring to : the brainwashing the system does since the day of your birth. That anything outside liberalism is considered devilish. I don't see any "patriotic streak". As airth correctly pointed out, "Soldiers are a marching, they're writing brand new laws Will we all fight together 4 the most important cause?" Prince is clearly saying, it's the soldiers we have to fight against. Lastly, it is a little stupid to assume that "America" is pro-america just because of the name. What about Jimi Hendrix's "Star-spangled Banner" ? Again, patriotism does not necessarily mean accepting everything your government does. It's about reminding your country what it originally stood for.
[Edited 1/3/16 4:27am] The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
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Jesus Christ, the levels of denial here are off-the-charts. Prince didn't just say the song was patriotic, he said it was "straightforwardly" patriotic. In other words there's no need to be racking our brains trying to invent novel definitions of the word. One verse in that song clearly condemns someone called "Jimmy Nothing". Jimmy Nothing refuses to pledge allegiance, he feels no pride to be American and he comes to a bad end. The message is clear; Jimmy is a fool. If you don't wanna end up like Jimmy, go to school, love your country and pledge allegiance. God knows what contortions of logic you guys are going to invent to blind yourself to that clear message.
[Edited 1/3/16 5:12am] “The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
- Thomas Jefferson | |
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midnightmover: "Then why is the song called "America"? The very title is making it explicit. Can you not see how you're going out of your way to avoid the obvious? Even when Prince expicitly calls the song "patriotic" you find a reason to avoid that explanation." That's your argument? It's called 'America' so it must be in favour of America? Seriously? And you take everything Prince says literally? Well, let's strip down the lyrics. At the other end of the scale people are living on minimum wage barely surviving. People are *made* to pledge allegiance when there's nothing to be proud of. But at least America isn't a communist country.
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You've just inserted a load of your own projections into "America" that aren't there. Please tell me exactly where in the lyric Prince criticizes the priviledged leaders who only care about making money. There's nothing of that in the song. It's your projection. When he talks about "little sister" making minimum wage his message is the same one he gives in "Free" which is that she's lucky she's not in a Communist country. That may well be true, but it's also exactly the kind of argument right-wingers make to stop people from protesting injustices here at home. [Edited 1/3/16 6:16am] “The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
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I've been on the Org nearly 17 years. This is now the most insufferable thread I've ever seen. Congratulations! "Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
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The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams | |
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I know. Now isn´t it great that some orgers discuss the lyrics in a Prince song and Prince´s political stance in a civil manner like it should be ? On a board dedicated to Prince and his music? I find your comments on this thread and you calling some orgers "nutbags" a bit strange, and, to be honest, a bit disappointing, because I usually agree with many of your posts and quite like you since day one. What do you dislike so much about this thread and its participants? I think Midnightmover came up with some excellent examples and arguments, and yes, Prince´s views and how they have changed over the years and discussing the song "Free" are a good reason to have a discussion, no? I don´t really understand the level of mild aggression on this thread. " I´d rather be a stank ass hoe because I´m not stupid. Oh my goodness! I got more drugs! I´m always funny dude...I´m hilarious! Are we gonna smoke?" | |
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The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams | |
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KoolEaze said:
I know. Now isn´t it great that some orgers discuss the lyrics in a Prince song and Prince´s political stance in a civil manner like it should be ? On a board dedicated to Prince and his music? I find your comments on this thread and you calling some orgers "nutbags" a bit strange, and, to be honest, a bit disappointing, because I usually agree with many of your posts and quite like you since day one. What do you dislike so much about this thread and its participants? I think Midnightmover came up with some excellent examples and arguments, and yes, Prince´s views and how they have changed over the years and discussing the song "Free" are a good reason to have a discussion, no? I don´t really understand the level of mild aggression on this thread. Midnightwhatever's posts are so seething with hate for Americans that he's lost all rationale perspective on Free. The song is a fairly simple, non-objectionable number buried in the back half of a classic album. Trying to associate it with Reagan-era support for the Mujahadeen etc etc is ludicrous. The soldiers marching? Clearly it's representing soldiers marching trying to take away people's freedoms. It's just a simple song against totalitarianism and expressing joy and appreciation for freedom. There's nothing saying it's ONLY about America, and it has NOTHING to do with whomever's issues over all the terrible things the United States government has done. I don't care how Prince's views have changed over the years. We're talking about interpreting the lyrics to Free. People are looking WAY too deep into this song and projecting their own prejudices and ridiculous assumptions onto it. People want to think America is nothing but hate and Reagan and militarism and sponsoring juntas and so on? That's bullshit. America is also jazz and rock and blue and funk and great artists of all types. It irks me when threads get bogged down in anti-American bullshit. I don't back down from that. "Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
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I mean, I'd like to think it's possible for us to discuss whether Free is a good song or not without having to go miles deep into everyone's grievances about the United States, which have fuck all to do with the song Free. Look at how much it derailed this thread. "Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
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Free and America are quite different lyrically.
The latter for me initially was total satire of the "no matter how hard you have it, just be glad you're not in a communist country" school of rethorics but today, now that I know he had some republican leanings, I'm not so sure he didn't mean it literally, as in "better poor and free than red". | |
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"The password is what." | |
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Wow. I thought this thread would sort of die on the vine but look at this now. This is not directed at you bonatac cause you're nailing it.
"May not be in the black but she happy aint in the red" means "She may not have a lot of money but she doesn't owe"...She's happy for what she has.
Agreed. "Free" and "Born in the USA", any song or novel, can be critical of America and also be pariotic. The two aren't mutually exclusive. See "Blowin in the Wind", "What's Goin on", "Progidal Son", "Sleep Now in the Fire", etc. "Maggies Farm". | |
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MTV interview 1986 not radio I've dated outside of my race and I discovered that Good Pussy is Good Pussy and Good Booty is Good Booty regardless of ethnicity...I don't have a Fetish for only Big White Tits, Big White Butts or Phat White Pussy.(chancellor) wise man ! | |
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"America" is very clearly pro-USA, and RED-scared. Let's break it down. Actually, there's no reason to. There is absolutely no sarcasm in those lyrics, it's quite plainly and unpoeticly didactic, completely clear. Nothing bad? He is clearly saying that it doesn't matter if you are a minority living in poverty... as long as as you are in the USA it's all good!
Also he points out that somone who doesn't pledge allegiance and questions the coolness of America... ends up DEAD from a nuclear attack. How does this happen? The implication is that bending from USA patritoism willl lead to the REDs winning. It like Prince called up Ronald Reagan (he was calling on him to talk to Russia, remember) and wrote a song with him.
He just can't understand why you wouldn't pledge allegiance if the bomb goes "BOOM".
"America" Yeah
Peace! Aristocrats on a mountain climb Making money, losing time Communism is just a word But if the government turn over It'll be the only word that's heard America, America God shed his grace on thee America, America Keep the children free Little sister making minimum wage Living in a 1-room jungle-monkey cage Can't get over, she's almost dead She may not be in the black But she's happy she ain't in the red America, America God shed his grace on thee America, America Keep the children free Freedom Love Joy Peace Jimmy Nothing never went 2 school They made him pledge allegiance He said it wasn't cool Nothing made Jimmy proud Now Jimmy lives on a mushroom cloud America, America God shed his grace on thee America, America Keep the children free America, America God shed his grace on thee America, America Keep the children free Freedom Love Joy Peace Boom, boom, boom, boom The bomb go Boom, boom, boom, boom The bomb go boom. Teacher, why won't Jimmy pledge allegiance? My art book: http://www.lulu.com/spotl...ecomicskid
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* First of all, you clearly know nothing of the American Civil Rights Movement and Freedom songs, because, if you did, you'd understand that "Free" is written both musically and lyrically in that vein. Black people as well as whites fought against the American military right here in America, especially those blacks and whites who fought for blacks to obtain their Civil Rights and against the Vietnam War. You do know that from 1968 to 1970 three college campuses--Kent State, Jackson State, and North Carolina A & T--were shot-up by American police and military officers, with black and white students killed? You do know this history, right? If you'd do some research, you'd know that. So, there is the basic and real context for which you are asking. The sounds of the soldiers marching in "Free" are the sounds of soldiers that marched in the 50s, 60s, and 70s against black and white folks who were in the streets fighting to make America a better place. * As for "America," you are assuming that Jimmy is "nothing" because he doesn't believe in the America dream. However, looking at the first two elements of the narrative Jimmy could be considered "nothing" by the same people who pay low wages to "Little Sister." In that context, Jimmy living on a "mushroom cloud" can be read as a warning to America to give their people something in which to believe. That said, nobody claimed that "America" is an anti-America song because most people don't think that challenging one's country to do better is being anti that country. On the other hand, it seems myopic that you can't see the fact that Prince is, essentially raising the same issue in "America" as he is in "Free," which is "America has some good qualities, but the citizens must be willing to fight to extend those liberties to all of the citizens." In short, Prince is not saying "Go to Hell America," nor is he saying "America is superior to everyone else." He seems to be saying with both songs that each person has the responsibility to do one's part to make the country great while recognizing that not all people have always been given the rights and benefits of being an American citizen. And, I applaud him for making that very nuanced statement. I hate to inform you of this, but most rationally thinking people can love something that is not perfect while working to me it better. That's the history of the Civil Rights Movement in America. Read a book dude. | |
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He cautions (or is that threatens?) that we will all die from a nuclear bomb if we question allegiance to America. He even put the flute in the mix.
These two songs are the eact opposite vibe of something like this from years later:
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midnightmover: "You've just inserted a load of your own projections into "America" that aren't there." Shall we go back to 'America'? Let's go. "Aristocrats on a mountain climb - Making money, losing time" What does this mean to you? Little sister making minimum wage - Living in a 1-room jungle-monkey cage - Can't get over, she's almost dead midnightmover: "You say that Prince is criticizing people "being made to pledge allegiance when there's nothing to be proud of". No, it's Jimmy Nothing, the foolish character in the song who resents being made to pledge allegiance. Jimmy Nothing thinks there's nothing to be proud of and Prince clearly disagrees with that. He's using Jimmy Nothing as a negative example to deter people from having those unpatriotic views. The very name "Jimmy Nothing" tells you that Prince is criticizing him. The name itself is a diss." | |
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* My concern about your analysis is that the three images (verses) of America are not overwhelmingly positive. Verse one, the aristocrats are busying making money but losing time. Then, immediately after that, he seems to compare American aristocrats to communists. Yes, he's not in favor of communism, but it also seems that he's saying that the American rich behave no better. So, I don't see that as a "pro-American jingle." Next, yes, "Little Sister" is content that she's "not in the red," as in negative financial condition, but she also isn't "in the black," as in earning a profit or having money left for leisure after she pays her bills. So, again, he's not saying that America is great or prefect; he's saying that it is cool to be thankful even if one is not in the best of conditions. Little Sister is not in a financial deficit, but she's also still struggling day to day and paycheck to paycheck, like most of us. I don't perceive that statement as being "Pro-America" so much as it is a statement of people trying or learning to make the best of their situation. Do you really hear his articulation or pronouncement of "making minimum wage" as something positive or something he's celebrating? I would love for someone to show me one example of a non-republican using "minimum wage" in a positive sense or with a positive connotation. Most times that "minimum wage" is used in art, it's usually in a negative connotation not a positive connotation. And, finally, Jimmy living on a mushroom cloud is what happens to people--within and outside the country--who don't swear blind allegiance to America. I don't read that as Prince saying that people must or should pledge allegiance to America but that it's sad that people like Jimmy suffer if they don't pledge allegiance to America. Again, that's not a pro-America statement but a statement that folks may not be as free as they think they are. Thus, Prince imploring America to "keep the children free" seems to suggest that there is something that can cause the children not to be free. And, since the three examples the song provides are all domestic issues, then it is plausible that the song is addressing/challenging America to evaluate itself internally to live up to its rhetoric of being "the land of the free and the home of the brave" because the three examples he provides do not paint the picture of America as a utopia. * As for "Free," I just don't understand how you can't see it in the vein of Civil Rights or Freedom songs that, while it acknowledges that Americans have some level of freedom, it makes clear that citizens must remain diligent and fight to retain those freedoms from a government that will--as history has proven--use its military to stop its own citizens from fighting for freedom. Have not the American police and military marched against blacks and others fighting for justice? And, I'm not inquiring about recent events, such as Ferguson, Baltimore, etc. I'm inquiring about the Watts, Detroit, Chicago, and Boston Riots of the 60s and 70s, as well as the law enforcement killings of college students in the 60s and 70s. In that sense, "The War" seems like a natural progression from "America" and "Free." | |
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I think people are really not seeing the forest for the trees here. To me, the emphasis of each of these songs is a conservative viewpoint that despite your hardships or lower place in society, or rebellious feelings, the USA is the best, you should be proud, loyal, and even fight for the freedoms you have here against the threat of communism. And he is making a joke about the word "red". He means she's happy to not be living in Russia by pulling a pun like twist on the slang that lifts "red" from just describing finance.
"Free" on the other hand can be taken in the context of a relationship, but it's still a very conservative way of looking at things. "Be glad that you are free, there's many a man who's not. Be glad for what you've got". That's what rulers want their subjects to live by. This can even apply to a relationship. The implication is that someone is not happy with what they've got. Someone might even be complaining or rebelling. The song is a like a parental tone of lecturing to change that person's perspective to be more complacent.
I wonder if Prince would sue if Donald Trump used one of these songs for his campaign?
When I first heard the song "America", I was into a lot of classic rock, so I immediately thought that the song must be sarcastic and an attack on US patriotism, since the hippy vibe was against serving your country, but rather serving your planet. And this album appropriated a psychedelic hippy vibe in many other ways.
But it was a few years later, when I actually read the lyrics and thought about what they meant in sequence and context, that I realized the entire meaning was completely the opposite. He was starting off seeming bitter, but then overshadowing it by saying: so what, the USA is great. Salute or get killed.
Then you also hear about insiders saying Prince at the time was feeling really patriotic (maybe he watched "The Day After" and "Red Dawn"), or that he was missing home while filming in France (hence the live video shot in France).
But hey, the one way he could mean the opposite is if he was playing a character that is blindly patriotic. My art book: http://www.lulu.com/spotl...ecomicskid
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best comment of the thread | |
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oh, and, it's the only song i skip on the album. | |
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* While Prince is obviously making a pun of "red," as both a financial hardship and what he views as oppressive communism, he's not painting a much better picture of America based on how Little Sister lives. She's "living in a 1-room monkey jungle," she "can't get over," which means she can never seem to escape poverty," and "she's almost dead." What's good about being "almost dead?" This image doesn't glorify America nor does it seem that conservative of a statement. Thus, it seems that the term "conservative" can only be applied to "Free" and "America" if one would say that Martin L. King was considered a "conservative" reaction to American evil as opposed to Malcolm X. In that vein, neither song promotes waging open warfare against America, but both clearly indicate that people within America must be diligent against the loss of their national/domestic freedoms. In "America" Prince only addresses domestic issues with each image painting a negative portrait of America. Therefore, he is not attacking US patriotism but merely making commentary that freedom comes with struggle and that one can be thankful for what one has while also fighting to make it better. At most, one could say that Prince is asserting that America is better than some other places, but it still has its evil that must be addressed. (As a black Mississippian I fight daily against the legacy of white oppression as symbolized by the still remaining Confederate Flag, but I also traveling the country celebrating Mississippi's literary legacy. Does it make me "conservative" that I can denounce what must be denounced and praise what must be praised simultaneously?) In the case of the Civil Rights Movement, some black folks wanted to return to Africa and some wanted to fight to make America better because they understood that their ancestors had contributed to developing the country. The latter group would only be deemed conservative if compared to the former group, but I don't think that J. Edgar Hoover would consider them conservative as he deemed King the most dangerous and anti-American man in America. As such, the portrait that "America" paints of the country is not much different than the one King painted of rich folk (aristocrats) exploiting the poor (Little Sister) and killing anyone (Jimmy Nothing) who dared to defy them. I just don't see that message or portrait as "conservative" or "US jingoism," but we all have the right to agree to disagree while enjoying this jam. | |
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In less words: So what if little sister is poor, she is still living in America, and she is happy for that.
I think you keep cutting that down to the incomplete fragment: "little sister is poor".
You asked the question "What's good about being almost dead?" I feel like that is exactly what makes you Jimmy Nothing according to "America". These songs answer that question with "At least you're in America" "Be glad for what you've got".
Now, on the progressive end it does say that Jimmy Nothing should have been in school. Prince was not anti education (akthough he didn't go to college), but he is most definitely pro-pledging allegiance in this song.
Prince is not bringing up any loss of freedom within the USA in either song in the lyrics. He is not equating poverty with loss of freedom, likewise, I don't think he is critical of aristocrats on a mountain climb. I think he thinks rich and poor are all part of it. "Everybody can't be on top". He is saying the threat to freedom is coming from outside of America, there's a foreign threat, so just be happy you are inside America. The aristocrast are losing their time to be alive because of communism looming. They need to be USA proud and aware.
Remember these songs were written in the first half to mid 1980's. Prince seems to be buying into a lot of hype and was understandably scared of nuclear war.
At least he was on record (literally) pro gun control, and that was a direct result of John Lennon being shot dead.
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* I get what you are saying, but where you state that I'm cutting the entire statement to a fragment, I would state that you are overly emphasizing one aspect of the statement while minimizing the other. It seems that you are, and correct me if I'm wrong, putting all your eggs into the part of the statement of let's be glad that we're in America whereas I'm saying that being glad that one is in America doesn't mean that one isn't willing to criticize America as being one hell that's just a tad better than another hell. After Prince states that we should "be glad for we've got," he immediately states that we must continue to fight against the soldiers marching against us. As such, where you see Prince addressing a threat coming from outside America, it seems that the three scenarios that he presents in "America" are all domestic issues. It's not communism that's oppressing Little Sister; it's American capitalism that's oppressing Little Sister. It's not communism that's going to blow up Jimmy Nothing; it's America. It's American aristocrats more worried about money than anything else. And, based on the first two scenarios, of what would Jimmy Nothing have to be proud? He lives in a country in which the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and there seems to be no help coming to save the poor. Yes, Prince is obviously buying into the nuclear fear/hype, as most of us were at that time, but I don't see in the song where he's supporting America's use of nuclear warfare but simply showing that listeners should be fearful or angry at a country that allows aristocrats to exploit the poor (Little Sister) and bomb people who defy them. In fact, rather than promoting that people should be proud to be American, "America" seems to be stating that we should detest the aristocrats, celebrate people like Little Sister who find the inner strength and serenity to continue despite her hellish existence, and, again, feel discontent that the Jimmy Nothings of the world are murdered by America. My ultimate point is that a song can criticize America and not be anti-America. Some would state that the most American thing to do is to challenge the power structure. We both enjoy the song, but see the meaning differently. | |
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At least this is an in-depth debate about P lyrics even if it's a bit heated I appreciate that thread. . Regarding Free, inevitably it sounds a bit out of place on 1999: it's a political song in a (mostly) personal album, a very melodic track in a (mostly) beats oriented album, and a very organic sound in a (mostly) cold electronic album. It's also overtly naive but Prince's political statements in songs havce often been a bit naive in a way, but that's not necessarily a bad things as it also shows the inheritence of a certain hippie philosophy that's also fresh in those cynical days. . To add my 2 cents on America, I've always seen it as a mixed-feeling statement about the US. To me the chorus is mostly ironic, with a bit of recognition of the American dream's beauty despite its often dark reality. Here's how I personally interpret the lyrics, for what it's worth (don't flame me if u disagree, it's just how I see it and I'm open to debate): . Yeah Shotgun Peace (This bit immediately expresses the contradiction between America's ideal and mission as a global peacekeeper and its agressive nature with free guns and other military interventions) . Aristocrats on a mountain climb Makin' money, losin' time (a somewhat void, consumerist society and the elitism of the rich, but no spirituality) Communism is just a word But if the government turn over It'll be the only word that's heard (a recognition of the fact that communism is no viable alternative to the above and an allusion to its totalitarism/extreme propaganda, leaving no space to freedom of speech or individualism) . Livin' in a one-room jungle, monkey cage Can't get over, she's almost dead She may not be in the black But she happy she ain't in the red (unsure what Prince means by "being in the black" unless it means "little sister" is white and her condition would be worse if she was black, but again that's at the same time a recognition of the fact that the US allows inhuman poverty levels, while at the same time a recognition of the fact that communism is not an acceptable alternative - better be poor and free than to have a decent income in a totalitarist country) . Jimmy Nothing never went to school They made him pledge allegiance He said it wasn't cool Nothin' made Jimmy proud Now Jimmy live on a mushroom cloud (I always assumed the mushroom cloud means drug addiction. In every case here Prince seems to compare the brainwashing that's the pledge of allegiance in school to the brainwashing of communist propaganda evoked earlier, and the fact that nothing makes Jimmy proud implies that nationalism cannot replace the pride of personal accomplishment, which may be hard to achieve if a child doesn't find his place in the educational system, a definite possibility in the US depending among other factors of social class, as opposed the the more egalitarian ways of a communist society) . Boom, boom, boom, boom Oh lord, oh lord And the bomb go Boom, boom, boom, boom And the bomb go Boom In the end to me this means that Prince acknowledges that America has enormous flaws as a society, but that its ideal is noble, and the song is by no means an endorsement of communism. A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...scography/ | |
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