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Reply #90 posted 01/03/16 3:13am

airth

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midnightmover said:

Sorry, but those explanations you came up with earlier were a bit of a stretch. My explanation requires much less creativity. And you're showing how much you're deluding yourself here by saying that Prince was surely being sarcastic when he described "America" as "straightforwardly patriotic". I assure you he wasn't. It was in a 1986 interview with a DJ from Detroit whose name escapes me. Take a listen to it if you can find it. There's no sarcasm there. Prince had a patriotic streak. Nothing wrong with that by itself but unfortunately it often goes hand in hand with an arrogant militarism.

But I think "Free" is a great song nonetheless. I like "America" too.


We're talking about art here. I'm not stretching in the least; it simply pays to put a bit more thought into what you can see or hear on the surface. I think your interpretation is interesting but it seems to me that you're the one doing the stretching by trying to link Prince to "arrogant militarism".

I'll listen to the interview later. Why do you think I'm deluding myself? Even if he said it with sincerity, it doesn't change the fact that the song isn't patriotic. What an artist says about a piece of work and what that work is or what it becomes are two completely different things. The way I hear it, he's singing in support of democracy, not America.

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Reply #91 posted 01/03/16 3:20am

midnightmover

airth said:

midnightmover said:

Sorry, but those explanations you came up with earlier were a bit of a stretch. My explanation requires much less creativity. And you're showing how much you're deluding yourself here by saying that Prince was surely being sarcastic when he described "America" as "straightforwardly patriotic". I assure you he wasn't. It was in a 1986 interview with a DJ from Detroit whose name escapes me. Take a listen to it if you can find it. There's no sarcasm there. Prince had a patriotic streak. Nothing wrong with that by itself but unfortunately it often goes hand in hand with an arrogant militarism.

But I think "Free" is a great song nonetheless. I like "America" too.


We're talking about art here. I'm not stretching in the least; it simply pays to put a bit more thought into what you can see or hear on the surface. I think your interpretation is interesting but it seems to me that you're the one doing the stretching by trying to link Prince to "arrogant militarism".

I'll listen to the interview later. Why do you think I'm deluding myself? Even if he said it with sincerity, it doesn't change the fact that the song isn't patriotic. What an artist says about a piece of work and what that work is or what it becomes are two completely different things. The way I hear it, he's singing in support of democracy, not America.

Then why is the song called "America"? The very title is making it explicit. Can you not see how you're going out of your way to avoid the obvious? Even when Prince expicitly calls the song "patriotic" you find a reason to avoid that explanation.


I have no problem with digging deeper, but there's a difference between that and just flat out refusal to admit what's staring you in the face.

“The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
- Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #92 posted 01/03/16 4:26am

bonatoc

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Now wait a second.


"Patriotic", in the purest sense, can also mean taking arms against your own government if necessary.


I just read the "America" lyrics, I see nothing that can be deemed "patriotic" in the bad sense.

From the very first verse, he clearly points out how America is one-sided and won't accept nothing outside the established views.


I do think he denounces the very thing midnightmover is referring to : the brainwashing the system does since the day of your birth. That anything outside liberalism is considered devilish.


I don't see any "patriotic streak". As airth correctly pointed out,


"Soldiers are a marching, they're writing brand new laws

Will we all fight together 4 the most important cause?"


Prince is clearly saying, it's the soldiers we have to fight against.


Lastly, it is a little stupid to assume that "America" is pro-america just because of the name.

What about Jimi Hendrix's "Star-spangled Banner" ?

Again, patriotism does not necessarily mean accepting everything your government does.

It's about reminding your country what it originally stood for.

[Edited 1/3/16 4:27am]

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #93 posted 01/03/16 5:11am

midnightmover

bonatoc said:

Now wait a second.


"Patriotic", in the purest sense, can also mean taking arms against your own government if necessary.


I just read the "America" lyrics, I see nothing that can be deemed "patriotic" in the bad sense.

From the very first verse, he clearly points out how America is one-sided and won't accept nothing outside the established views.


I do think he denounces the very thing midnightmover is referring to : the brainwashing the system does since the day of your birth. That anything outside liberalism is considered devilish.


I don't see any "patriotic streak". As airth correctly pointed out,


"Soldiers are a marching, they're writing brand new laws

Will we all fight together 4 the most important cause?"


Prince is clearly saying, it's the soldiers we have to fight against.


Lastly, it is a little stupid to assume that "America" is pro-america just because of the name.

What about Jimi Hendrix's "Star-spangled Banner" ?

Again, patriotism does not necessarily mean accepting everything your government does.

It's about reminding your country what it originally stood for.

[Edited 1/3/16 4:27am]

Jesus Christ, the levels of denial here are off-the-charts. Prince didn't just say the song was patriotic, he said it was "straightforwardly" patriotic. In other words there's no need to be racking our brains trying to invent novel definitions of the word. One verse in that song clearly condemns someone called "Jimmy Nothing". Jimmy Nothing refuses to pledge allegiance, he feels no pride to be American and he comes to a bad end. The message is clear; Jimmy is a fool. If you don't wanna end up like Jimmy, go to school, love your country and pledge allegiance. God knows what contortions of logic you guys are going to invent to blind yourself to that clear message.

As for the soldier part in "Free". Yes, of course it's soldiers you would have to fight against. The soldiers of the other countries. Duh! This idea you guys have dreamed up that it's the American soldiers Prince is saying we would have to fight against is a pure invention on your part. What evidence is there for it? None! You've just thrown it in as a way to avoid the more obvious interpretation.


And this whole idea about fighting the government in armed conflict for your "freedom" is itself a piece of right-wing fantasy. It usually comes from gun-lovers who are paranoid the government is going to take away their "freedom". It's usually massive corporations and sleazy politicians like Ronald Reagan who promote that anti-government rhetoric so that they'll con the rubes into supporting the deregulation and tax cuts that enable them to maximize profits. Don't get me wrong I'm no fan of the government, but I recognize the particular brand of nuttiness you guys are mentioning here and that is not Prince's brand.

And Jimi Hendix' star spangled banner was clearly a deconstruction. He was taking that and making it mean something else. Making it more ambiguous and questioning. Conservatives criticized him for it. No conservatives would criticize "America" or "Free". I think they would be pleasantly surprised if they heard those songs to realize how patriotic and friendly to the government Prince can SOMETIMES be.

[Edited 1/3/16 5:12am]

“The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
- Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #94 posted 01/03/16 5:41am

airth

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midnightmover: "Then why is the song called "America"? The very title is making it explicit. Can you not see how you're going out of your way to avoid the obvious? Even when Prince expicitly calls the song "patriotic" you find a reason to avoid that explanation."

That's your argument? It's called 'America' so it must be in favour of America? Seriously? And you take everything Prince says literally? Well, let's strip down the lyrics.

America is led by the privileged who only care about making money.

At the other end of the scale people are living on minimum wage barely surviving.

People are *made* to pledge allegiance when there's nothing to be proud of.

But at least America isn't a communist country.


Is that what you call patriotic?


midnightmover:
"As for the soldier part in "Free". Yes, of course it's soldiers you would have to fight against. The soldiers of the other countries. Duh! This idea you guys have dreamed up that it's the American soldiers Prince is saying we would have to fight against is a pure invention on your part. What evidence is there for it? None! You've just thrown it in as a way to avoid the more obvious interpretation."


And what evidence is there for your argument? It's ambigious. An "obvious interpretration" doesn't make it the right one. Aren't you the person who wrote "That line is an absolutely brilliant one. This guy trying to dissect it is missing the point. Poetry is a nonliteral means of expression"? Why are you taking the literal approach now?

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Reply #95 posted 01/03/16 6:14am

midnightmover

airth said:

midnightmover: "Then why is the song called "America"? The very title is making it explicit. Can you not see how you're going out of your way to avoid the obvious? Even when Prince expicitly calls the song "patriotic" you find a reason to avoid that explanation."

That's your argument? It's called 'America' so it must be in favour of America? Seriously? And you take everything Prince says literally? Well, let's strip down the lyrics.

America is led by the privileged who only care about making money.

At the other end of the scale people are living on minimum wage barely surviving.

People are *made* to pledge allegiance when there's nothing to be proud of.

But at least America isn't a communist country.


Is that what you call patriotic?


midnightmover:
"As for the soldier part in "Free". Yes, of course it's soldiers you would have to fight against. The soldiers of the other countries. Duh! This idea you guys have dreamed up that it's the American soldiers Prince is saying we would have to fight against is a pure invention on your part. What evidence is there for it? None! You've just thrown it in as a way to avoid the more obvious interpretation."


And what evidence is there for your argument? It's ambigious. An "obvious interpretration" doesn't make it the right one. Aren't you the person who wrote "That line is an absolutely brilliant one. This guy trying to dissect it is missing the point. Poetry is a nonliteral means of expression"? Why are you taking the literal approach now?

You've just inserted a load of your own projections into "America" that aren't there. Please tell me exactly where in the lyric Prince criticizes the priviledged leaders who only care about making money. There's nothing of that in the song. It's your projection. When he talks about "little sister" making minimum wage his message is the same one he gives in "Free" which is that she's lucky she's not in a Communist country. That may well be true, but it's also exactly the kind of argument right-wingers make to stop people from protesting injustices here at home.

You say that Prince is criticizing people "being made to pledge allegiance when there's nothing to be proud of". No, it's Jimmy Nothing, the foolish character in the song who resents being made to pledge allegiance. Jimmy Nothing thinks there's nothing to be proud of and Prince clearly disagrees with that. He's using Jimmy Nothing as a negative example to deter people from having those unpatriotic views. The very name "Jimmy Nothing" tells you that Prince is criticizing him. The name itself is a diss.

As for poetry being non-literal that's a seperate point. We are making competing claims here. My claim requires far less stretching and is consistent with the known facts, fits the context, etc. Prince lives in a culture inundated with those ideas about "freedom". It just happens to match exactly the rhetoric of politicians, etc. That all fits. But what's the context for your alternative explanation? The idea that we may have to get militaristic against the military. If that was the case then it would totally jar with the message that things are pretty good here that the song otherwise gives.

[Edited 1/3/16 6:16am]

“The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
- Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #96 posted 01/03/16 6:54am

KingSausage

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I've been on the Org nearly 17 years. This is now the most insufferable thread I've ever seen. Congratulations!
"Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
-Eugene Tackleberry
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Reply #97 posted 01/03/16 9:03am

bonatoc

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Bluu said:

Loved this song since the first time I heard it: the music, the lyrics, the subject. Beautiful. Never understood the attitude it gets here on the org. I have always included "Free" on my slow jams tapes and playlists. The piano is SO pretty. Simple and melodic like a nursery rhyme sung to a child (in the same vein as "A Place In Heaven") yet adult with the dark poignancy of the refrain. I love these songs of his where you get this juxtaposition of opposing emotional forces, with the song's blend of inspired lyrics of hope and heroism, and somber unease of the coda at the songs conclusion. Personally evocative and very touching.


You nailed it as well. To me, "Free to change your mind" has also a kind of romantic connotation, and bears the unavoidable suffering that comes with freedom, the cost of letting the other choose her/his path. The song is much more than just politics, and again, I don't think it speaks of politics at all.

"Be glad for what you have, glad for what you've got". They may be simple words, but they're also a statement against consumerism, and what it does to our brains if we forget that we've grown in countries where the basic needs of freedom of thought and speech were covered since the day of our birth.

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #98 posted 01/03/16 9:22am

KoolEaze

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KingSausage said:

I've been on the Org nearly 17 years. This is now the most insufferable thread I've ever seen. Congratulations!

I know.

Now isn´t it great that some orgers discuss the lyrics in a Prince song and Prince´s political stance in a civil manner like it should be ? On a board dedicated to Prince and his music?

I find your comments on this thread and you calling some orgers "nutbags" a bit strange, and, to be honest, a bit disappointing, because I usually agree with many of your posts and quite like you since day one.

What do you dislike so much about this thread and its participants? I think Midnightmover came up with some excellent examples and arguments, and yes, Prince´s views and how they have changed over the years and discussing the song "Free" are a good reason to have a discussion, no?

I don´t really understand the level of mild aggression on this thread. wink

" I´d rather be a stank ass hoe because I´m not stupid. Oh my goodness! I got more drugs! I´m always funny dude...I´m hilarious! Are we gonna smoke?"
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Reply #99 posted 01/03/16 9:43am

bonatoc

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midnightmover said:

airth said:

midnightmover: "Then why is the song called "America"? The very title is making it explicit. Can you not see how you're going out of your way to avoid the obvious? Even when Prince expicitly calls the song "patriotic" you find a reason to avoid that explanation."

That's your argument? It's called 'America' so it must be in favour of America? Seriously? And you take everything Prince says literally? Well, let's strip down the lyrics.

America is led by the privileged who only care about making money.

At the other end of the scale people are living on minimum wage barely surviving.

People are *made* to pledge allegiance when there's nothing to be proud of.

But at least America isn't a communist country.


Is that what you call patriotic?


midnightmover:
"As for the soldier part in "Free". Yes, of course it's soldiers you would have to fight against. The soldiers of the other countries. Duh! This idea you guys have dreamed up that it's the American soldiers Prince is saying we would have to fight against is a pure invention on your part. What evidence is there for it? None! You've just thrown it in as a way to avoid the more obvious interpretation."


And what evidence is there for your argument? It's ambigious. An "obvious interpretration" doesn't make it the right one. Aren't you the person who wrote "That line is an absolutely brilliant one. This guy trying to dissect it is missing the point. Poetry is a nonliteral means of expression"? Why are you taking the literal approach now?

You've just inserted a load of your own projections into "America" that aren't there. Please tell me exactly where in the lyric Prince criticizes the priviledged leaders who only care about making money. There's nothing of that in the song. It's your projection. When he talks about "little sister" making minimum wage his message is the same one he gives in "Free" which is that she's lucky she's not in a Communist country. That may well be true, but it's also exactly the kind of argument right-wingers make to stop people from protesting injustices here at home.




I often found myself guilty of intolerance, but you, Good Sir, break every record.

What makes you so sure that "red" is about the Soviet Union, and not about native americans?

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #100 posted 01/03/16 10:27am

KingSausage

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KoolEaze said:



KingSausage said:


I've been on the Org nearly 17 years. This is now the most insufferable thread I've ever seen. Congratulations!

I know.


Now isn´t it great that some orgers discuss the lyrics in a Prince song and Prince´s political stance in a civil manner like it should be ? On a board dedicated to Prince and his music?


I find your comments on this thread and you calling some orgers "nutbags" a bit strange, and, to be honest, a bit disappointing, because I usually agree with many of your posts and quite like you since day one.


What do you dislike so much about this thread and its participants? I think Midnightmover came up with some excellent examples and arguments, and yes, Prince´s views and how they have changed over the years and discussing the song "Free" are a good reason to have a discussion, no?


I don´t really understand the level of mild aggression on this thread. wink




Midnightwhatever's posts are so seething with hate for Americans that he's lost all rationale perspective on Free. The song is a fairly simple, non-objectionable number buried in the back half of a classic album. Trying to associate it with Reagan-era support for the Mujahadeen etc etc is ludicrous. The soldiers marching? Clearly it's representing soldiers marching trying to take away people's freedoms. It's just a simple song against totalitarianism and expressing joy and appreciation for freedom. There's nothing saying it's ONLY about America, and it has NOTHING to do with whomever's issues over all the terrible things the United States government has done.

I don't care how Prince's views have changed over the years. We're talking about interpreting the lyrics to Free.

People are looking WAY too deep into this song and projecting their own prejudices and ridiculous assumptions onto it.

People want to think America is nothing but hate and Reagan and militarism and sponsoring juntas and so on? That's bullshit. America is also jazz and rock and blue and funk and great artists of all types.

It irks me when threads get bogged down in anti-American bullshit. I don't back down from that.
"Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
-Eugene Tackleberry
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Reply #101 posted 01/03/16 10:46am

KingSausage

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I mean, I'd like to think it's possible for us to discuss whether Free is a good song or not without having to go miles deep into everyone's grievances about the United States, which have fuck all to do with the song Free. Look at how much it derailed this thread.
"Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
-Eugene Tackleberry
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Reply #102 posted 01/03/16 11:13am

Aerogram

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Free and America are quite different lyrically.

The latter for me initially was total satire of the "no matter how hard you have it, just be glad you're not in a communist country" school of rethorics but today, now that I know he had some republican leanings, I'm not so sure he didn't mean it literally, as in "better poor and free than red".

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Reply #103 posted 01/03/16 1:41pm

dadeepop

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KingSausage said:

KoolEaze said:

I know.

Now isn´t it great that some orgers discuss the lyrics in a Prince song and Prince´s political stance in a civil manner like it should be ? On a board dedicated to Prince and his music?

I find your comments on this thread and you calling some orgers "nutbags" a bit strange, and, to be honest, a bit disappointing, because I usually agree with many of your posts and quite like you since day one.

What do you dislike so much about this thread and its participants? I think Midnightmover came up with some excellent examples and arguments, and yes, Prince´s views and how they have changed over the years and discussing the song "Free" are a good reason to have a discussion, no?

I don´t really understand the level of mild aggression on this thread. wink


Midnightwhatever's posts are so seething with hate for Americans that he's lost all rationale perspective on Free. The song is a fairly simple, non-objectionable number buried in the back half of a classic album. Trying to associate it with Reagan-era support for the Mujahadeen etc etc is ludicrous. The soldiers marching? Clearly it's representing soldiers marching trying to take away people's freedoms. It's just a simple song against totalitarianism and expressing joy and appreciation for freedom. There's nothing saying it's ONLY about America, and it has NOTHING to do with whomever's issues over all the terrible things the United States government has done. I don't care how Prince's views have changed over the years. We're talking about interpreting the lyrics to Free. People are looking WAY too deep into this song and projecting their own prejudices and ridiculous assumptions onto it. People want to think America is nothing but hate and Reagan and militarism and sponsoring juntas and so on? That's bullshit. America is also jazz and rock and blue and funk and great artists of all types. It irks me when threads get bogged down in anti-American bullshit. I don't back down from that.


Much agreed, Sausage. And right now the U.S. at an amazing #12 rolleyes freest in the world! http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

Free is a simple, universal, positive message. But since it came from an American, the negative reactions to it are very telling. "Jingoistic" . . . lolz.

"The password is what."
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Reply #104 posted 01/03/16 2:50pm

herb4

bonatoc said:

midnightmover said:

You've just inserted a load of your own projections into "America" that aren't there. Please tell me exactly where in the lyric Prince criticizes the priviledged leaders who only care about making money. There's nothing of that in the song. It's your projection. When he talks about "little sister" making minimum wage his message is the same one he gives in "Free" which is that she's lucky she's not in a Communist country. That may well be true, but it's also exactly the kind of argument right-wingers make to stop people from protesting injustices here at home.




I often found myself guilty of intolerance, but you, Good Sir, break every record.

What makes you so sure that "red" is about the Soviet Union, and not about native americans?

Wow. I thought this thread would sort of die on the vine but look at this now. This is not directed at you bonatac cause you're nailing it.

"May not be in the black but she happy aint in the red" means "She may not have a lot of money but she doesn't owe"...She's happy for what she has.


bonatoc said:

Bluu said:

Loved this song since the first time I heard it: the music, the lyrics, the subject. Beautiful. Never understood the attitude it gets here on the org. I have always included "Free" on my slow jams tapes and playlists. The piano is SO pretty. Simple and melodic like a nursery rhyme sung to a child (in the same vein as "A Place In Heaven") yet adult with the dark poignancy of the refrain. I love these songs of his where you get this juxtaposition of opposing emotional forces, with the song's blend of inspired lyrics of hope and heroism, and somber unease of the coda at the songs conclusion. Personally evocative and very touching.


You nailed it as well. To me, "Free to change your mind" has also a kind of romantic connotation, and bears the unavoidable suffering that comes with freedom, the cost of letting the other choose her/his path. The song is much more than just politics, and again, I don't think it speaks of politics at all.

"Be glad for what you have, glad for what you've got". They may be simple words, but they're also a statement against consumerism, and what it does to our brains if we forget that we've grown in countries where the basic needs of freedom of thought and speech were covered since the day of our birth.

Agreed. "Free" and "Born in the USA", any song or novel, can be critical of America and also be pariotic. The two aren't mutually exclusive. See "Blowin in the Wind", "What's Goin on", "Progidal Son", "Sleep Now in the Fire", etc. "Maggies Farm".

"America", to me, hardly seemed jingoistic in the slightest. "Free" either. I feel like I started this because I posted I remember listening to it after 9/11, but it wasn't in a "rah rah..USA..USA!" sort of way. It was much more reflective and emotional. More about forgiveness and acceptance than anything.

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Reply #105 posted 01/03/16 7:26pm

RufusRawfield

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midnightmover said:

airth said:


Until I read this thread, it had honestly never occurred to me to view 'Free' in the way you do. There's no contorting, creativity or wild dreaming going on. I've always heard it as a statement about freedoms in our everyday lives. We just think differently.

I didn't know that Prince said 'America' was "straightforwardly patriotic". It'd be nice to know the context as I can only imagine he was being sarcastic. It's clearly a song written out of fear of communism while at the same time conceding how terrible life can be in democratic America. I don't see how that matches the definition of patriotic: "expressing devotion to and vigorous support for one’s country".

Sorry, but those explanations you came up with earlier were a bit of a stretch. My explanation requires much less creativity. And you're showing how much you're deluding yourself here by saying that Prince was surely being sarcastic when he described "America" as "straightforwardly patriotic". I assure you he wasn't. It was in a 1986 interview with a DJ from Detroit whose name escapes me. Take a listen to it if you can find it. There's no sarcasm there. Prince had a patriotic streak. Nothing wrong with that by itself but unfortunately it often goes hand in hand with an arrogant militarism.

But I think "Free" is a great song nonetheless. I like "America" too.

MTV interview 1986

not radio

I've dated outside of my race and I discovered that Good Pussy is Good Pussy and Good Booty is Good Booty regardless of ethnicity...I don't have a Fetish for only Big White Tits, Big White Butts or Phat White Pussy.(chancellor) smile wise man !
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Reply #106 posted 01/03/16 9:42pm

ufoclub

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bonatoc said:

Now wait a second.


"Patriotic", in the purest sense, can also mean taking arms against your own government if necessary.


I just read the "America" lyrics, I see nothing that can be deemed "patriotic" in the bad sense.

From the very first verse, he clearly points out how America is one-sided and won't accept nothing outside the established views.


I do think he denounces the very thing midnightmover is referring to : the brainwashing the system does since the day of your birth. That anything outside liberalism is considered devilish.


I don't see any "patriotic streak". As airth correctly pointed out,


"Soldiers are a marching, they're writing brand new laws

Will we all fight together 4 the most important cause?"


Prince is clearly saying, it's the soldiers we have to fight against.


Lastly, it is a little stupid to assume that "America" is pro-america just because of the name.

What about Jimi Hendrix's "Star-spangled Banner" ?

Again, patriotism does not necessarily mean accepting everything your government does.

It's about reminding your country what it originally stood for.

[Edited 1/3/16 4:27am]

"America" is very clearly pro-USA, and RED-scared. Let's break it down. Actually, there's no reason to. There is absolutely no sarcasm in those lyrics, it's quite plainly and unpoeticly didactic, completely clear. Nothing bad? He is clearly saying that it doesn't matter if you are a minority living in poverty... as long as as you are in the USA it's all good!

Also he points out that somone who doesn't pledge allegiance and questions the coolness of America... ends up DEAD from a nuclear attack. How does this happen? The implication is that bending from USA patritoism willl lead to the REDs winning. It like Prince called up Ronald Reagan (he was calling on him to talk to Russia, remember) and wrote a song with him.

He just can't understand why you wouldn't pledge allegiance if the bomb goes "BOOM".

"America"

Yeah
Peace!

Aristocrats on a mountain climb
Making money, losing time
Communism is just a word
But if the government turn over
It'll be the only word that's heard

America, America
God shed his grace on thee
America, America
Keep the children free

Little sister making minimum wage
Living in a 1-room jungle-monkey cage
Can't get over, she's almost dead
She may not be in the black
But she's happy she ain't in the red

America, America
God shed his grace on thee
America, America
Keep the children free

Freedom
Love
Joy
Peace

Jimmy Nothing never went 2 school
They made him pledge allegiance
He said it wasn't cool
Nothing made Jimmy proud
Now Jimmy lives on a mushroom cloud

America, America
God shed his grace on thee
America, America
Keep the children free

America, America
God shed his grace on thee
America, America
Keep the children free

Freedom
Love
Joy
Peace

Boom, boom, boom, boom
The bomb go
Boom, boom, boom, boom
The bomb go boom.
Teacher, why won't Jimmy pledge allegiance?
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Reply #107 posted 01/03/16 9:49pm

1725topp

midnightmover said:

airth said:

midnightmover: "Then why is the song called "America"? The very title is making it explicit. Can you not see how you're going out of your way to avoid the obvious? Even when Prince expicitly calls the song "patriotic" you find a reason to avoid that explanation."

That's your argument? It's called 'America' so it must be in favour of America? Seriously? And you take everything Prince says literally? Well, let's strip down the lyrics.

America is led by the privileged who only care about making money.

At the other end of the scale people are living on minimum wage barely surviving.

People are *made* to pledge allegiance when there's nothing to be proud of.

But at least America isn't a communist country.


Is that what you call patriotic?


midnightmover:
"As for the soldier part in "Free". Yes, of course it's soldiers you would have to fight against. The soldiers of the other countries. Duh! This idea you guys have dreamed up that it's the American soldiers Prince is saying we would have to fight against is a pure invention on your part. What evidence is there for it? None! You've just thrown it in as a way to avoid the more obvious interpretation."


And what evidence is there for your argument? It's ambigious. An "obvious interpretration" doesn't make it the right one. Aren't you the person who wrote "That line is an absolutely brilliant one. This guy trying to dissect it is missing the point. Poetry is a nonliteral means of expression"? Why are you taking the literal approach now?

You've just inserted a load of your own projections into "America" that aren't there. Please tell me exactly where in the lyric Prince criticizes the priviledged leaders who only care about making money. There's nothing of that in the song. It's your projection. When he talks about "little sister" making minimum wage his message is the same one he gives in "Free" which is that she's lucky she's not in a Communist country. That may well be true, but it's also exactly the kind of argument right-wingers make to stop people from protesting injustices here at home.

You say that Prince is criticizing people "being made to pledge allegiance when there's nothing to be proud of". No, it's Jimmy Nothing, the foolish character in the song who resents being made to pledge allegiance. Jimmy Nothing thinks there's nothing to be proud of and Prince clearly disagrees with that. He's using Jimmy Nothing as a negative example to deter people from having those unpatriotic views. The very name "Jimmy Nothing" tells you that Prince is criticizing him. The name itself is a diss.

As for poetry being non-literal that's a seperate point. We are making competing claims here. My claim requires far less stretching and is consistent with the known facts, fits the context, etc. Prince lives in a culture inundated with those ideas about "freedom". It just happens to match exactly the rhetoric of politicians, etc. That all fits. But what's the context for your alternative explanation? The idea that we may have to get militaristic against the military. If that was the case then it would totally jar with the message that things are pretty good here that the song otherwise gives.

[Edited 1/3/16 6:16am]

*

First of all, you clearly know nothing of the American Civil Rights Movement and Freedom songs, because, if you did, you'd understand that "Free" is written both musically and lyrically in that vein. Black people as well as whites fought against the American military right here in America, especially those blacks and whites who fought for blacks to obtain their Civil Rights and against the Vietnam War. You do know that from 1968 to 1970 three college campuses--Kent State, Jackson State, and North Carolina A & T--were shot-up by American police and military officers, with black and white students killed? You do know this history, right? If you'd do some research, you'd know that. So, there is the basic and real context for which you are asking. The sounds of the soldiers marching in "Free" are the sounds of soldiers that marched in the 50s, 60s, and 70s against black and white folks who were in the streets fighting to make America a better place.

*

As for "America," you are assuming that Jimmy is "nothing" because he doesn't believe in the America dream. However, looking at the first two elements of the narrative Jimmy could be considered "nothing" by the same people who pay low wages to "Little Sister." In that context, Jimmy living on a "mushroom cloud" can be read as a warning to America to give their people something in which to believe. That said, nobody claimed that "America" is an anti-America song because most people don't think that challenging one's country to do better is being anti that country. On the other hand, it seems myopic that you can't see the fact that Prince is, essentially raising the same issue in "America" as he is in "Free," which is "America has some good qualities, but the citizens must be willing to fight to extend those liberties to all of the citizens." In short, Prince is not saying "Go to Hell America," nor is he saying "America is superior to everyone else." He seems to be saying with both songs that each person has the responsibility to do one's part to make the country great while recognizing that not all people have always been given the rights and benefits of being an American citizen. And, I applaud him for making that very nuanced statement. I hate to inform you of this, but most rationally thinking people can love something that is not perfect while working to me it better. That's the history of the Civil Rights Movement in America. Read a book dude.

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Reply #108 posted 01/03/16 9:54pm

ufoclub

avatar

herb4 said:


"America", to me, hardly seemed jingoistic in the slightest.

He cautions (or is that threatens?) that we will all die from a nuclear bomb if we question allegiance to America. He even put the flute in the mix.

These two songs are the eact opposite vibe of something like this from years later:


I can't hear U, say it!
Y'all ain't ready, I can't hear U, say it

Do like this...

One, two. Evolution will be colorized.

This is the War
Right on. [sarcastically]

The war will go on and on and on...
If U don't wanna miss your Saturday morning cartoons...

One, two. Evolution will be colorized.
One, two. Evolution will be colorized.
Yeah... right on.

The war will go on and on...
Revolution will be...
Revolution will be...
Revolution will be on and on and...

(One, two) {repeated}

The war will go on and on and on
If U do not wish 2 be in the war U should leave now

We are about 2 challenge what U believe
If U do not wish 2 be challenged U should leave now
Saturday morning awaits

Do U love your country?
Do U love God?
Do U love your country as much as U love God?

If the government...
If the government...
If the government wants 2 put a microchip in your neck, heh heh
(Right on)

Do U still love your country?

The war will go on and on
If U do not wish 2 be challenged, leave now
The evolution will be colorized
One, two, the evolution will be colorized

We are running out of the essentials of life:
Oxygen, water, food, fertile earth

Underground right now as we speak, there is a metropolis
Awaiting, waiting... 4 U, me
Clean air, food 2 eat

Will U go, will U go?
Will U go underground 2 this metropolis, this metropolis paradise?

We are running out of the essentials of life here on earth!
Will U go, will U go, will U go?

Don't U love your country?
If your country no longer exists on this earth
But exists under this earth, will U go?

Underneath in this metropolis, there's food 2 eat, clean air
It's a paradise!

One condition: microchip in your neck

One, two, the evolution will be colorized
(Right on)

Would U stay above the metropolis, the microchip city?
Would U stay above and await your fate?

Do U trust your God?

Would U stay on top of the chip and await your fate?

2night U will be challenged, U best leave now
This war will go on and on.

One, two, the evolution will be colorized
One, two, the evolution will be colorized

Without God there is no country
Without God there is no metropolis
Without God there is no oxygen, there is no food to eat
Without God there is no chocolate microchip 4 your neck

Somebody say it!

One, two, the evolution will be colorized
In other words, there'll be a little bit of U and a little bit of me

One, two, the evolution will be colorized
The evolution will be colorized {x2}

1 4 me, 2 4 U
Preach a lie, not the truth
U give me candy and keep the stone
Gonna' need it in the war

I said, 1 4 me, 2 4 U
U preach a lie, not the truth
U give me candy and keep the stone
Gonna' eat it in the war

Batter up, pitcher down
What your teachers say, it ain't sound
Pledge allegiance 2 your flag
U tie me 2 a truck, 'n' then U drag

1 4 me, 2 4 U
U preach a lie, not a truth
U give me candy and keep the stone
U gonna eat it in the war

U give me AIDS, your history
When it comes 2 mine, another name
Many die and this is true
Red, black, yellow, even Jew
Claimin' God was backin' U
All across, what a fool.

1 4 me, 2 4 U
U preach a lie, not the truth
U give me candy, U keep the stone
Gonna eat it in the war

Shall I go on?

So U say
U got a cure?
HIV
I'm not sure

Every seed, fruit 2 bear
The great Babylon, I don't care

We know your name, it's the beast
All of God's child is your feast

When the righteous one plant the seed
No more kids with mama please

Only way 2 get there is the truth, y'all
In the war baby, come on me and U!

Come on! One, two. Evolution will be colorized
One, two. Evolution will be colorized
One, two. Evolution will be colorized
Play your organ, son

One Two.
1 4 me, 2 4 U
Preach a lie, not the truth
Give me candy, U keep the stone
What the hell is goin' on y'all?

There's a mountain that's mighty high
Can't reach the top unless U fly
Ain't about the money, it's about the gold
21st century, money just got sold, y'all

You hear me?

Money just got sold, y'all
Check the date.
It's has-been
It's all gone
Your pocketbook is next
It's about the gold y'all

One, two, the evolution will be colorized
One, two, the evolution will be
One, two, the evolution will be
The evolution will be
The... evolution... will... be... colorized

(One, two, the evolution will be

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Reply #109 posted 01/03/16 10:40pm

airth

avatar

midnightmover: "You've just inserted a load of your own projections into "America" that aren't there."

Of course I'm projecting onto the song, just as you are. That's the beauty of artistic work. Each person takes away a different message based on their beliefs, prejudices and environment. Even the original intention of the artist is a side issue. Any artistic work stands by itself and can be interpreted differently as times change. Your interpretation is perfectly valid and I'm interested to hear it. There's no need to justify it by continually stating how obvious it is. You seem to be under the misapprehension that we are making "competing claims". I thought we were just stating what each song means to us, which is surely all anyone can do.

midnightmover: "My claim requires far less stretching and is consistent with the known facts, fits the context, etc. Prince lives in a culture inundated with those ideas about "freedom". It just happens to match exactly the rhetoric of politicians, etc. That all fits. But what's the context for your alternative explanation? The idea that we may have to get militaristic against the military. If that was the case then it would totally jar with the message that things are pretty good here that the song otherwise gives."

I fail to see why the lyrics of 'Free' have to fit with the situation Prince was living in at the time. Have you considered that it might be hypothetical? We are free to make choices about our lives today but would you be prepared to fight for your freedom if they were under threat? If you insist on taking it literally, I assume you are saying that Prince is asking us to go and join the American military to engage in the Libyan conflict, which was ongoing at the time. Once again, I think that it's you who's stretching here.

Shall we go back to 'America'? Let's go.

midnightmover: "Please tell me exactly where in the lyric Prince criticizes the priviledged leaders who only care about making money."

"Aristocrats on a mountain climb - Making money, losing time"

What does this mean to you?

midnightmover: "When he talks about "little sister" making minimum wage his message is the same one he gives in "Free" which is that she's lucky she's not in a Communist country. That may well be true, but it's also exactly the kind of argument right-wingers make to stop people from protesting injustices here at home."

Little sister making minimum wage - Living in a 1-room jungle-monkey cage - Can't get over, she's almost dead

But he is protesting here. Things are so bad that he can't understand how she can manage to survive. Yes, he's saying that she still values her freedom with "she's happy she ain't in the red", but I don't believe he's sidestepping her predicament. On the contrary, he's challenging us to do something about it.

midnightmover: "You say that Prince is criticizing people "being made to pledge allegiance when there's nothing to be proud of". No, it's Jimmy Nothing, the foolish character in the song who resents being made to pledge allegiance. Jimmy Nothing thinks there's nothing to be proud of and Prince clearly disagrees with that. He's using Jimmy Nothing as a negative example to deter people from having those unpatriotic views. The very name "Jimmy Nothing" tells you that Prince is criticizing him. The name itself is a diss."

Sure, the name Jimmy Nothing could be "a diss", or it could be a description of the environment he was born into. I've always heard it as he has nothing, and so nobody expects anything of him. Maybe he didn't go to school because he's an idiot or maybe it's because the American education system let him down.

Prince asks us "Teacher, why won't Jimmy pledge allegiance?" Why would he do that if he just thought Jimmy was a fool? In my opinion, he's asking us to face up to the problems in our society while still valuing the freedom we have. We're lucky to have what we have but we shouldn't overlook our failures. If you look at the structure of the lyrics, you'll see how these two themes are repeated in the rhymic shift from criticisms of America to warnings against communism.

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Reply #110 posted 01/04/16 12:06am

1725topp

ufoclub said:

herb4 said:


"America", to me, hardly seemed jingoistic in the slightest.

He cautions (or is that threatens?) that we will all die from a nuclear bomb if we question allegiance to America. He even put the flute in the mix.

These two songs are the eact opposite vibe of something like this from years later:

*

My concern about your analysis is that the three images (verses) of America are not overwhelmingly positive. Verse one, the aristocrats are busying making money but losing time. Then, immediately after that, he seems to compare American aristocrats to communists. Yes, he's not in favor of communism, but it also seems that he's saying that the American rich behave no better. So, I don't see that as a "pro-American jingle." Next, yes, "Little Sister" is content that she's "not in the red," as in negative financial condition, but she also isn't "in the black," as in earning a profit or having money left for leisure after she pays her bills. So, again, he's not saying that America is great or prefect; he's saying that it is cool to be thankful even if one is not in the best of conditions. Little Sister is not in a financial deficit, but she's also still struggling day to day and paycheck to paycheck, like most of us. I don't perceive that statement as being "Pro-America" so much as it is a statement of people trying or learning to make the best of their situation. Do you really hear his articulation or pronouncement of "making minimum wage" as something positive or something he's celebrating? I would love for someone to show me one example of a non-republican using "minimum wage" in a positive sense or with a positive connotation. Most times that "minimum wage" is used in art, it's usually in a negative connotation not a positive connotation. And, finally, Jimmy living on a mushroom cloud is what happens to people--within and outside the country--who don't swear blind allegiance to America. I don't read that as Prince saying that people must or should pledge allegiance to America but that it's sad that people like Jimmy suffer if they don't pledge allegiance to America. Again, that's not a pro-America statement but a statement that folks may not be as free as they think they are. Thus, Prince imploring America to "keep the children free" seems to suggest that there is something that can cause the children not to be free. And, since the three examples the song provides are all domestic issues, then it is plausible that the song is addressing/challenging America to evaluate itself internally to live up to its rhetoric of being "the land of the free and the home of the brave" because the three examples he provides do not paint the picture of America as a utopia.

*

As for "Free," I just don't understand how you can't see it in the vein of Civil Rights or Freedom songs that, while it acknowledges that Americans have some level of freedom, it makes clear that citizens must remain diligent and fight to retain those freedoms from a government that will--as history has proven--use its military to stop its own citizens from fighting for freedom. Have not the American police and military marched against blacks and others fighting for justice? And, I'm not inquiring about recent events, such as Ferguson, Baltimore, etc. I'm inquiring about the Watts, Detroit, Chicago, and Boston Riots of the 60s and 70s, as well as the law enforcement killings of college students in the 60s and 70s. In that sense, "The War" seems like a natural progression from "America" and "Free."

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Reply #111 posted 01/04/16 8:11am

ufoclub

avatar

I think people are really not seeing the forest for the trees here. To me, the emphasis of each of these songs is a conservative viewpoint that despite your hardships or lower place in society, or rebellious feelings, the USA is the best, you should be proud, loyal, and even fight for the freedoms you have here against the threat of communism. And he is making a joke about the word "red". He means she's happy to not be living in Russia by pulling a pun like twist on the slang that lifts "red" from just describing finance.

"Free" on the other hand can be taken in the context of a relationship, but it's still a very conservative way of looking at things. "Be glad that you are free, there's many a man who's not. Be glad for what you've got". That's what rulers want their subjects to live by. This can even apply to a relationship. The implication is that someone is not happy with what they've got. Someone might even be complaining or rebelling. The song is a like a parental tone of lecturing to change that person's perspective to be more complacent.

I wonder if Prince would sue if Donald Trump used one of these songs for his campaign?

When I first heard the song "America", I was into a lot of classic rock, so I immediately thought that the song must be sarcastic and an attack on US patriotism, since the hippy vibe was against serving your country, but rather serving your planet. And this album appropriated a psychedelic hippy vibe in many other ways.

But it was a few years later, when I actually read the lyrics and thought about what they meant in sequence and context, that I realized the entire meaning was completely the opposite. He was starting off seeming bitter, but then overshadowing it by saying: so what, the USA is great. Salute or get killed.

Then you also hear about insiders saying Prince at the time was feeling really patriotic (maybe he watched "The Day After" and "Red Dawn"), or that he was missing home while filming in France (hence the live video shot in France).

But hey, the one way he could mean the opposite is if he was playing a character that is blindly patriotic.

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Reply #112 posted 01/04/16 11:46am

starkitty

JudasLChrist said:


Tommorrow Belongs to Us was sung by the Nazis, but I suppose it could refer to any country, right?

best comment of the thread star star star star

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Reply #113 posted 01/04/16 11:51am

starkitty

oh, and, it's the only song i skip on the album.

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Reply #114 posted 01/04/16 11:53am

1725topp

ufoclub said:

I think people are really not seeing the forest for the trees here. To me, the emphasis of each of these songs is a conservative viewpoint that despite your hardships or lower place in society, or rebellious feelings, the USA is the best, you should be proud, loyal, and even fight for the freedoms you have here against the threat of communism. And he is making a joke about the word "red". He means she's happy to not be living in Russia by pulling a pun like twist on the slang that lifts "red" from just describing finance.

"Free" on the other hand can be taken in the context of a relationship, but it's still a very conservative way of looking at things. "Be glad that you are free, there's many a man who's not. Be glad for what you've got". That's what rulers want their subjects to live by. This can even apply to a relationship. The implication is that someone is not happy with what they've got. Someone might even be complaining or rebelling. The song is a like a parental tone of lecturing to change that person's perspective to be more complacent.

I wonder if Prince would sue if Donald Trump used one of these songs for his campaign?

When I first heard the song "America", I was into a lot of classic rock, so I immediately thought that the song must be sarcastic and an attack on US patriotism, since the hippy vibe was against serving your country, but rather serving your planet. And this album appropriated a psychedelic hippy vibe in many other ways.

But it was a few years later, when I actually read the lyrics and thought about what they meant in sequence and context, that I realized the entire meaning was completely the opposite. He was starting off seeming bitter, but then overshadowing it by saying: so what, the USA is great. Salute or get killed.

Then you also hear about insiders saying Prince at the time was feeling really patriotic (maybe he watched "The Day After" and "Red Dawn"), or that he was missing home while filming in France (hence the live video shot in France).

But hey, the one way he could mean the opposite is if he was playing a character that is blindly patriotic.

*

While Prince is obviously making a pun of "red," as both a financial hardship and what he views as oppressive communism, he's not painting a much better picture of America based on how Little Sister lives. She's "living in a 1-room monkey jungle," she "can't get over," which means she can never seem to escape poverty," and "she's almost dead." What's good about being "almost dead?" This image doesn't glorify America nor does it seem that conservative of a statement. Thus, it seems that the term "conservative" can only be applied to "Free" and "America" if one would say that Martin L. King was considered a "conservative" reaction to American evil as opposed to Malcolm X. In that vein, neither song promotes waging open warfare against America, but both clearly indicate that people within America must be diligent against the loss of their national/domestic freedoms. In "America" Prince only addresses domestic issues with each image painting a negative portrait of America. Therefore, he is not attacking US patriotism but merely making commentary that freedom comes with struggle and that one can be thankful for what one has while also fighting to make it better. At most, one could say that Prince is asserting that America is better than some other places, but it still has its evil that must be addressed. (As a black Mississippian I fight daily against the legacy of white oppression as symbolized by the still remaining Confederate Flag, but I also traveling the country celebrating Mississippi's literary legacy. Does it make me "conservative" that I can denounce what must be denounced and praise what must be praised simultaneously?) In the case of the Civil Rights Movement, some black folks wanted to return to Africa and some wanted to fight to make America better because they understood that their ancestors had contributed to developing the country. The latter group would only be deemed conservative if compared to the former group, but I don't think that J. Edgar Hoover would consider them conservative as he deemed King the most dangerous and anti-American man in America. As such, the portrait that "America" paints of the country is not much different than the one King painted of rich folk (aristocrats) exploiting the poor (Little Sister) and killing anyone (Jimmy Nothing) who dared to defy them. I just don't see that message or portrait as "conservative" or "US jingoism," but we all have the right to agree to disagree while enjoying this jam.

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Reply #115 posted 01/04/16 2:04pm

ufoclub

avatar

1725topp said:

*

While Prince is obviously making a pun of "red," as both a financial hardship and what he views as oppressive communism, he's not painting a much better picture of America based on how Little Sister lives. She's "living in a 1-room monkey jungle," she "can't get over," which means she can never seem to escape poverty," and "she's almost dead." What's good about being "almost dead?" This image doesn't glorify America nor does it seem that conservative of a statement. Thus, it seems that the term "conservative" can only be applied to "Free" and "America" if one would say that Martin L. King was considered a "conservative" reaction to American evil as opposed to Malcolm X. In that vein, neither song promotes waging open warfare against America, but both clearly indicate that people within America must be diligent against the loss of their national/domestic freedoms. In "America" Prince only addresses domestic issues with each image painting a negative portrait of America. Therefore, he is not attacking US patriotism but merely making commentary that freedom comes with struggle and that one can be thankful for what one has while also fighting to make it better. At most, one could say that Prince is asserting that America is better than some other places, but it still has its evil that must be addressed. (As a black Mississippian I fight daily against the legacy of white oppression as symbolized by the still remaining Confederate Flag, but I also traveling the country celebrating Mississippi's literary legacy. Does it make me "conservative" that I can denounce what must be denounced and praise what must be praised simultaneously?) In the case of the Civil Rights Movement, some black folks wanted to return to Africa and some wanted to fight to make America better because they understood that their ancestors had contributed to developing the country. The latter group would only be deemed conservative if compared to the former group, but I don't think that J. Edgar Hoover would consider them conservative as he deemed King the most dangerous and anti-American man in America. As such, the portrait that "America" paints of the country is not much different than the one King painted of rich folk (aristocrats) exploiting the poor (Little Sister) and killing anyone (Jimmy Nothing) who dared to defy them. I just don't see that message or portrait as "conservative" or "US jingoism," but we all have the right to agree to disagree while enjoying this jam.


I'm trying to take into account what is happening with the lyrics as a whole thought:

In less words: So what if little sister is poor, she is still living in America, and she is happy for that.

I think you keep cutting that down to the incomplete fragment: "little sister is poor".

You asked the question "What's good about being almost dead?" I feel like that is exactly what makes you Jimmy Nothing according to "America". These songs answer that question with "At least you're in America" "Be glad for what you've got".

Now, on the progressive end it does say that Jimmy Nothing should have been in school. Prince was not anti education (akthough he didn't go to college), but he is most definitely pro-pledging allegiance in this song.

Prince is not bringing up any loss of freedom within the USA in either song in the lyrics. He is not equating poverty with loss of freedom, likewise, I don't think he is critical of aristocrats on a mountain climb. I think he thinks rich and poor are all part of it. "Everybody can't be on top". He is saying the threat to freedom is coming from outside of America, there's a foreign threat, so just be happy you are inside America. The aristocrast are losing their time to be alive because of communism looming. They need to be USA proud and aware.

Remember these songs were written in the first half to mid 1980's. Prince seems to be buying into a lot of hype and was understandably scared of nuclear war.

At least he was on record (literally) pro gun control, and that was a direct result of John Lennon being shot dead.

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Reply #116 posted 01/04/16 6:37pm

JudasLChrist

avatar

Much agreed, Sausage. And right now the U.S. at an amazing #12 rolleyes freest in the world! http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking


So, do you realize that you just linked to The Heritage Foundation's website?

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Reply #117 posted 01/04/16 6:47pm

JudasLChrist

avatar

little sister make minimum wage
living in a one room jungle

monkey cage

can't get over

she's almost dead

she may not be in the black

but she happy she aint in the red



This lyric is just dumb. Prince, from his 1985 position of opulence and wealth writes about a woman in America who is struggling, who is poor, and he says 'at least she/we aint communist!".

I love this song, but face it, Prince talking about politics just isn't all that.

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Reply #118 posted 01/04/16 10:52pm

1725topp

ufoclub said:

1725topp said:

*

While Prince is obviously making a pun of "red," as both a financial hardship and what he views as oppressive communism, he's not painting a much better picture of America based on how Little Sister lives. She's "living in a 1-room monkey jungle," she "can't get over," which means she can never seem to escape poverty," and "she's almost dead." What's good about being "almost dead?" This image doesn't glorify America nor does it seem that conservative of a statement. Thus, it seems that the term "conservative" can only be applied to "Free" and "America" if one would say that Martin L. King was considered a "conservative" reaction to American evil as opposed to Malcolm X. In that vein, neither song promotes waging open warfare against America, but both clearly indicate that people within America must be diligent against the loss of their national/domestic freedoms. In "America" Prince only addresses domestic issues with each image painting a negative portrait of America. Therefore, he is not attacking US patriotism but merely making commentary that freedom comes with struggle and that one can be thankful for what one has while also fighting to make it better. At most, one could say that Prince is asserting that America is better than some other places, but it still has its evil that must be addressed. (As a black Mississippian I fight daily against the legacy of white oppression as symbolized by the still remaining Confederate Flag, but I also traveling the country celebrating Mississippi's literary legacy. Does it make me "conservative" that I can denounce what must be denounced and praise what must be praised simultaneously?) In the case of the Civil Rights Movement, some black folks wanted to return to Africa and some wanted to fight to make America better because they understood that their ancestors had contributed to developing the country. The latter group would only be deemed conservative if compared to the former group, but I don't think that J. Edgar Hoover would consider them conservative as he deemed King the most dangerous and anti-American man in America. As such, the portrait that "America" paints of the country is not much different than the one King painted of rich folk (aristocrats) exploiting the poor (Little Sister) and killing anyone (Jimmy Nothing) who dared to defy them. I just don't see that message or portrait as "conservative" or "US jingoism," but we all have the right to agree to disagree while enjoying this jam.


I'm trying to take into account what is happening with the lyrics as a whole thought:

In less words: So what if little sister is poor, she is still living in America, and she is happy for that.

I think you keep cutting that down to the incomplete fragment: "little sister is poor".

You asked the question "What's good about being almost dead?" I feel like that is exactly what makes you Jimmy Nothing according to "America". These songs answer that question with "At least you're in America" "Be glad for what you've got".

Now, on the progressive end it does say that Jimmy Nothing should have been in school. Prince was not anti education (akthough he didn't go to college), but he is most definitely pro-pledging allegiance in this song.

Prince is not bringing up any loss of freedom within the USA in either song in the lyrics. He is not equating poverty with loss of freedom, likewise, I don't think he is critical of aristocrats on a mountain climb. I think he thinks rich and poor are all part of it. "Everybody can't be on top". He is saying the threat to freedom is coming from outside of America, there's a foreign threat, so just be happy you are inside America. The aristocrast are losing their time to be alive because of communism looming. They need to be USA proud and aware.

Remember these songs were written in the first half to mid 1980's. Prince seems to be buying into a lot of hype and was understandably scared of nuclear war.

At least he was on record (literally) pro gun control, and that was a direct result of John Lennon being shot dead.

*

I get what you are saying, but where you state that I'm cutting the entire statement to a fragment, I would state that you are overly emphasizing one aspect of the statement while minimizing the other. It seems that you are, and correct me if I'm wrong, putting all your eggs into the part of the statement of let's be glad that we're in America whereas I'm saying that being glad that one is in America doesn't mean that one isn't willing to criticize America as being one hell that's just a tad better than another hell. After Prince states that we should "be glad for we've got," he immediately states that we must continue to fight against the soldiers marching against us. As such, where you see Prince addressing a threat coming from outside America, it seems that the three scenarios that he presents in "America" are all domestic issues. It's not communism that's oppressing Little Sister; it's American capitalism that's oppressing Little Sister. It's not communism that's going to blow up Jimmy Nothing; it's America. It's American aristocrats more worried about money than anything else. And, based on the first two scenarios, of what would Jimmy Nothing have to be proud? He lives in a country in which the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and there seems to be no help coming to save the poor. Yes, Prince is obviously buying into the nuclear fear/hype, as most of us were at that time, but I don't see in the song where he's supporting America's use of nuclear warfare but simply showing that listeners should be fearful or angry at a country that allows aristocrats to exploit the poor (Little Sister) and bomb people who defy them. In fact, rather than promoting that people should be proud to be American, "America" seems to be stating that we should detest the aristocrats, celebrate people like Little Sister who find the inner strength and serenity to continue despite her hellish existence, and, again, feel discontent that the Jimmy Nothings of the world are murdered by America. My ultimate point is that a song can criticize America and not be anti-America. Some would state that the most American thing to do is to challenge the power structure. We both enjoy the song, but see the meaning differently.

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Reply #119 posted 01/05/16 7:32am

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At least this is an in-depth debate about P lyrics even if it's a bit heated smile I appreciate that thread.

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Regarding Free, inevitably it sounds a bit out of place on 1999: it's a political song in a (mostly) personal album, a very melodic track in a (mostly) beats oriented album, and a very organic sound in a (mostly) cold electronic album. It's also overtly naive but Prince's political statements in songs havce often been a bit naive in a way, but that's not necessarily a bad things as it also shows the inheritence of a certain hippie philosophy that's also fresh in those cynical days.

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To add my 2 cents on America, I've always seen it as a mixed-feeling statement about the US. To me the chorus is mostly ironic, with a bit of recognition of the American dream's beauty despite its often dark reality. Here's how I personally interpret the lyrics, for what it's worth (don't flame me if u disagree, it's just how I see it and I'm open to debate):

.

Yeah

Shotgun

Peace

(This bit immediately expresses the contradiction between America's ideal and mission as a global peacekeeper and its agressive nature with free guns and other military interventions)

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Aristocrats on a mountain climb

Makin' money, losin' time

(a somewhat void, consumerist society and the elitism of the rich, but no spirituality)

Communism is just a word

But if the government turn over

It'll be the only word that's heard

(a recognition of the fact that communism is no viable alternative to the above and an allusion to its totalitarism/extreme propaganda, leaving no space to freedom of speech or individualism)

.
Little sister make minimum wage

Livin' in a one-room jungle, monkey cage

Can't get over, she's almost dead

She may not be in the black

But she happy she ain't in the red

(unsure what Prince means by "being in the black" unless it means "little sister" is white and her condition would be worse if she was black, but again that's at the same time a recognition of the fact that the US allows inhuman poverty levels, while at the same time a recognition of the fact that communism is not an acceptable alternative - better be poor and free than to have a decent income in a totalitarist country)

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Jimmy Nothing never went to school

They made him pledge allegiance

He said it wasn't cool

Nothin' made Jimmy proud

Now Jimmy live on a mushroom cloud

(I always assumed the mushroom cloud means drug addiction. In every case here Prince seems to compare the brainwashing that's the pledge of allegiance in school to the brainwashing of communist propaganda evoked earlier, and the fact that nothing makes Jimmy proud implies that nationalism cannot replace the pride of personal accomplishment, which may be hard to achieve if a child doesn't find his place in the educational system, a definite possibility in the US depending among other factors of social class, as opposed the the more egalitarian ways of a communist society)

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Boom, boom, boom, boom

Oh lord, oh lord

And the bomb go

Boom, boom, boom, boom

And the bomb go

Boom
Teacher, why won't Jimmy pledge allegiance?
(Another hint at the contradictions of war and peace, and the individualist ways of capitalism/liberalism against nationalist propaganda)
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In the end to me this means that Prince acknowledges that America has enormous flaws as a society, but that its ideal is noble, and the song is by no means an endorsement of communism.

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...scography/
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