ufoclub said:

1725topp said:

*

While Prince is obviously making a pun of "red," as both a financial hardship and what he views as oppressive communism, he's not painting a much better picture of America based on how Little Sister lives. She's "living in a 1-room monkey jungle," she "can't get over," which means she can never seem to escape poverty," and "she's almost dead." What's good about being "almost dead?" This image doesn't glorify America nor does it seem that conservative of a statement. Thus, it seems that the term "conservative" can only be applied to "Free" and "America" if one would say that Martin L. King was considered a "conservative" reaction to American evil as opposed to Malcolm X. In that vein, neither song promotes waging open warfare against America, but both clearly indicate that people within America must be diligent against the loss of their national/domestic freedoms. In "America" Prince only addresses domestic issues with each image painting a negative portrait of America. Therefore, he is not attacking US patriotism but merely making commentary that freedom comes with struggle and that one can be thankful for what one has while also fighting to make it better. At most, one could say that Prince is asserting that America is better than some other places, but it still has its evil that must be addressed. (As a black Mississippian I fight daily against the legacy of white oppression as symbolized by the still remaining Confederate Flag, but I also traveling the country celebrating Mississippi's literary legacy. Does it make me "conservative" that I can denounce what must be denounced and praise what must be praised simultaneously?) In the case of the Civil Rights Movement, some black folks wanted to return to Africa and some wanted to fight to make America better because they understood that their ancestors had contributed to developing the country. The latter group would only be deemed conservative if compared to the former group, but I don't think that J. Edgar Hoover would consider them conservative as he deemed King the most dangerous and anti-American man in America. As such, the portrait that "America" paints of the country is not much different than the one King painted of rich folk (aristocrats) exploiting the poor (Little Sister) and killing anyone (Jimmy Nothing) who dared to defy them. I just don't see that message or portrait as "conservative" or "US jingoism," but we all have the right to agree to disagree while enjoying this jam.

I'm trying to take into account what is happening with the lyrics as a whole thought:

In less words: So what if little sister is poor, she is still living in America, and she is happy for that.

I think you keep cutting that down to the incomplete fragment: "little sister is poor".

You asked the question "What's good about being almost dead?" I feel like that is exactly what makes you Jimmy Nothing according to "America". These songs answer that question with "At least you're in America" "Be glad for what you've got".

Now, on the progressive end it does say that Jimmy Nothing should have been in school. Prince was not anti education (akthough he didn't go to college), but he is most definitely pro-pledging allegiance in this song.

Prince is not bringing up any loss of freedom within the USA in either song in the lyrics. He is not equating poverty with loss of freedom, likewise, I don't think he is critical of aristocrats on a mountain climb. I think he thinks rich and poor are all part of it. "Everybody can't be on top". He is saying the threat to freedom is coming from outside of America, there's a foreign threat, so just be happy you are inside America. The aristocrast are losing their time to be alive because of communism looming. They need to be USA proud and aware.

Remember these songs were written in the first half to mid 1980's. Prince seems to be buying into a lot of hype and was understandably scared of nuclear war.

At least he was on record (literally) pro gun control, and that was a direct result of John Lennon being shot dead.

I'm following your description of the meaning of the songs, to me it looks like you're blending interpretations of 3 different songs to describe them as 1 complete idea on Prince's thoghts on life in America and the USA's place in the world hierarchy of achievement. I do think that he was feeling the times of the Cold War environment and he expresses his thoughts toward these pressures in his songs, but I also think that Prince accents a specific theme in each of the 3 songs that u mention. "Free" describes his high valuation of democratic freedom and defending one's posession of the universal human privilege; "America" speaks generally of valuing the imperfect nation--people are making big bucks while others are scraping together cents--and encouraging the deflection of communism, seen in his view as oppressive but can be philosophically debated; and "Pop Life" ("everybody can't be on top")--to me the most expansive song--professes self-love, embracing life's pleasure, valuing knowledge, education, sobriety, hard work to survive and thrive, and belief in the salvation of God's love ("there won't be no water when the fire blows"--the juxtaposition of water and fire reminds me of the religious prophecy of Armageddon).

I seem to simplify my Prince lyric interpretation, while others may conjecture deeper meanings toward the lyrics--conservative vs liberal political meanings and projecting toward vs detracting from America's "goodness"--and it's all good, LOL.

>

Annie Christian introduces more pointed commentary toward a panorama of social ills circa 1980s USA (sequel-killers, gun control, corporate-political corruption) . All of it is a trip.

JudasLChrist said:

bonatoc said:

And what about "Imagine" by Lennon?
One could argue that it carries the most naive, childish lyrics ever put to a song.
The "Free" lyrics suddenly sounds pretty adult when comparing the two.

Imagine is actually a pretty heavy lyric.

imagine no country

it isn't hard to do

nothing to kill or die for

and no religion, too

Pretty Heavy?
Gimme a break.
You're blinded by your will to diminish Prince.

"Imagine" always made me puke, starting with this stupid piano riff loop.
It's incredible how much of a cult everything Lennon did has become.
But outside of "Plastic Ono Band" and "Woman", maybe "Jealous Guy",
the post-Beatles decade was naiveness and depression for the most part.

"Imagine" could have been written in any adolescent's notebook.
That's why it's so popular and universal, nothing hurts in it, nothing is provoking,

it's the ultimate demagogic ballad.

It's so innocuous and apathetic, it makes me want to cut myself (and I'm really not into scarification).

Lastly, at least "Free" demands kids to take some action,
to stand against soldiers, there's a hint of Civil war in it,
where good ol' John sappy lyrics just stay in the vague : "you may say", "I hope someday"...
Bleah, a thousand bleahs, is the revolution supposed to be made by drooling snails?
Fuck the Flower Power era, it was just an excuse to smoke one joint after another
and pretend that just ranting about the world's problems would solve them.

Ive never liked the song America. The beat is funky and the verses are quite snappy, but that chorus is just horrid. It sounds like he was trying to create an anthem that could be sung (chanted) at a ball game. Cheesey.

Free, on the other hand, I really like. I think it was his first attempt at a rowsing, build up of a song that starts minimally and then goes all climatic at the end. He later improved on the concept with the song PR and then mastered it with Anna Stasia.

As for the intent and meaning of the songs? I coulnt care less. Ive never taken what Prince has to say with much seriousness. He isn't a protest artist. He isn't really a profound lyricist. He oozes musicality and craft though. And the funk is strong with him.

[Edited 1/11/16 1:06am]

Rebeljuice said:

Ive never liked the song America. The beat is funky and the verses are quite snappy, but that chorus is just horrid. It sounds like he was trying to create an anthem that could be sung (chanted) at a ball game. Cheesey.

Free, on the other hand, I really like. I think it was his first attempt at a rowsing, build up of a song that starts minimally and then goes all climatic at the end. He later improved on the concept with the song PR and then mastered it with Anna Stasia.

As for the intent and meaning of the songs? I coulnt care less. Ive never taken what Prince has to say with much seriousness. He isn't a protest artist. He isn't really a profound lyricist. He oozes musicality and craft though. And the funk is strong with him.

[Edited 1/11/16 1:06am]

Maybe so....but remember he did not write that particular part. But I bet you already know that.

(Samuel A.Ward, Katherine Lee-Bates, released in 1910).

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From Muppets Wiki: " Fozzie Bear sings "America" (also known as "America the Beautiful") in The Muppet Movie. He punctuates his performance exclaiming, "Patriotism swells in the heart of the American bear.""

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.

,

,

Aristocrats on a mountain climb
Makin' money, losin' time
Communism is just a word
But if the government turn over
It'll be the only word that's heard

I think this more an indictment of gree and infettered capitalism than either an endoresment or even a fear of communism. He seems to be saying that aristocrats are running the show, gobbling up the money and leading us to a crash where, if it happens, communism will happen.

Little sister make minimum wage
Livin' in a one-room jungle, monkey cage
Can't get over, she's almost dead
She may not be in the black
But she happy she ain't in the red

Here he's talking about the "little sister" who is NOT an aristocrat, barely scraping by, "making minimum wage" a slave to the system (capitalism) and someone who's looking on the bright side by being able to say "well, she's not making money but not she's not in crushing debt either"

Jimmy nothing never went to school
They made him pledge allegiance
He said it wasn't cool
Nothin' made Jimmy proud
Now Jimmy live on a mushroom cloud

This verse seems to the most misunderstood one in the thread. He calls him "jimmy nothing" because he didn't get an education. He was too busy trying to be "cool" and rebel so he likely wound up as a high school dropout and wound up in the military where he died. The other kids ask "Teacher, why won't Jimmy pledge allegiance?" believing that THAT was his failure.

It's a statement about conformity and how it relates to education. Where you might wind up if you don't follow the rules and/or educate yourself and how you can't do one without doing the other.

Freedom, love, joy, peace

Boom, boom, boom, boom
(Oh lord, oh lord)
And the bomb go
Boom, boom, boom, boom
And the bomb go
Boom

Teacher, why won't Jimmy pledge allegiance?

Now armegeddon.

Freedom, Love, Joy, Peace...but "BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM". A CHILD asks why Jimmy won't pledge allegiance as if that's what led us to the mushroom cloud. A child. "Keep the children free" seems like an indictment as well in this sense. The way I read it, he's saying "keep the children free" not by pledging allegiance, but by embracing education and realizing that conformity is not the true measure of "doing well in school".

The whole song reads to me about a failure in the American education system, the unfair distribution of wealth, the elite power brokers who send the uneducated off to die in wars or suffer minimum wage uprbringings, a chlid's naive understanding and persepctive of what it means to be educated, and the costs and sacrifices of being rebellious in a conformist society.

I NEVER listened to this song and found it to be anthemic at all.

"Free" is much the same for me. When I listened to it after 9/11, it wasn;t in an "America! Fuck Yeah" sort of way but more in a "thank god that wasn't me and I can still walk around and speak, etc," I'm not a suicide bomber and caught up in that religous war. Prince is speaking about freedom fighters, not neccessarily American ones, but anywhere. The soldiers he speaks of are people fighting to be free anywhere, any time.

I think these songs are seriously misunderstood. I'll do a write up on the lyrics later when I have time.

^

Horrible simplistic jingoistic message ruins the lame song. I can't believe this song was put on an otherwise perfect album.

My sentiments exactly. I do like the musicality of it, especially towards the end. Wish it were an instrumental or that the lyrics were more in the vein of the rest of the album...partying, sex, relationships and Prince's inner life (always his best subject!)

1725topp said:

midnightmover said:

You've just inserted a load of your own projections into "America" that aren't there. Please tell me exactly where in the lyric Prince criticizes the priviledged leaders who only care about making money. There's nothing of that in the song. It's your projection. When he talks about "little sister" making minimum wage his message is the same one he gives in "Free" which is that she's lucky she's not in a Communist country. That may well be true, but it's also exactly the kind of argument right-wingers make to stop people from protesting injustices here at home.

You say that Prince is criticizing people "being made to pledge allegiance when there's nothing to be proud of". No, it's Jimmy Nothing, the foolish character in the song who resents being made to pledge allegiance. Jimmy Nothing thinks there's nothing to be proud of and Prince clearly disagrees with that. He's using Jimmy Nothing as a negative example to deter people from having those unpatriotic views. The very name "Jimmy Nothing" tells you that Prince is criticizing him. The name itself is a diss.

As for poetry being non-literal that's a seperate point. We are making competing claims here. My claim requires far less stretching and is consistent with the known facts, fits the context, etc. Prince lives in a culture inundated with those ideas about "freedom". It just happens to match exactly the rhetoric of politicians, etc. That all fits. But what's the context for your alternative explanation? The idea that we may have to get militaristic against the military. If that was the case then it would totally jar with the message that things are pretty good here that the song otherwise gives.

[Edited 1/3/16 6:16am]

*

First of all, you clearly know nothing of the American Civil Rights Movement and Freedom songs, because, if you did, you'd understand that "Free" is written both musically and lyrically in that vein. Black people as well as whites fought against the American military right here in America, especially those blacks and whites who fought for blacks to obtain their Civil Rights and against the Vietnam War. You do know that from 1968 to 1970 three college campuses--Kent State, Jackson State, and North Carolina A & T--were shot-up by American police and military officers, with black and white students killed? You do know this history, right? If you'd do some research, you'd know that. So, there is the basic and real context for which you are asking. The sounds of the soldiers marching in "Free" are the sounds of soldiers that marched in the 50s, 60s, and 70s against black and white folks who were in the streets fighting to make America a better place.

*

As for "America," you are assuming that Jimmy is "nothing" because he doesn't believe in the America dream. However, looking at the first two elements of the narrative Jimmy could be considered "nothing" by the same people who pay low wages to "Little Sister." In that context, Jimmy living on a "mushroom cloud" can be read as a warning to America to give their people something in which to believe. That said, nobody claimed that "America" is an anti-America song because most people don't think that challenging one's country to do better is being anti that country. On the other hand, it seems myopic that you can't see the fact that Prince is, essentially raising the same issue in "America" as he is in "Free," which is "America has some good qualities, but the citizens must be willing to fight to extend those liberties to all of the citizens." In short, Prince is not saying "Go to Hell America," nor is he saying "America is superior to everyone else." He seems to be saying with both songs that each person has the responsibility to do one's part to make the country great while recognizing that not all people have always been given the rights and benefits of being an American citizen. And, I applaud him for making that very nuanced statement. I hate to inform you of this, but most rationally thinking people can love something that is not perfect while working to me it better. That's the history of the Civil Rights Movement in America. Read a book dude.

You are clearly misrepresenting the civil rights movement. For the vast majority of it's history that movement was (and still is today) non-violent. Black protesters on the whole never advocated taking up arms against the government. Only the Black Panthers for a very brief period advocated blacks arming themselves for a violent struggle. Other than that there was never anything militaristic about the Civil Rights Movement. Indeed, civil rights leaders like Martin Luther King spoke explicitly against the culture of militarism that America was infested with.

To this day if you look at the Black Lives Matter protests you see there is absolutely no element in it of armed confrontation with the state. As I said earlier it is usually right wing gun lovers who talk about arming yourself to fight the tyrannical government. Right now as I'm typing this there are a group of armed right wing thugs who are occupying state property in Oregon in an attempt to undermine the government. Right wing talk show hosts like Alex Jones also frequently speak in those terms.

Prince is absolutely NOT in that group. Indeed just a year before "Free" was released he was advocating for gun control on "Annie Christian" (a stance he has maintained for all these years, most recently on the song "Baltimore" where he called for the guns to effectively be confiscated). That completely contradicts your suggestion that "Free" is telling us we should be prepared to wage a gun war against our own government. If he felt that way then he'd be telling people to buy more guns, not asking for restrictions on gun access.

airth said:

midnightmover: "You've just inserted a load of your own projections into "America" that aren't there."

Of course I'm projecting onto the song, just as you are. That's the beauty of artistic work. Each person takes away a different message based on their beliefs, prejudices and environment. Even the original intention of the artist is a side issue. Any artistic work stands by itself and can be interpreted differently as times change. Your interpretation is perfectly valid and I'm interested to hear it. There's no need to justify it by continually stating how obvious it is. You seem to be under the misapprehension that we are making "competing claims". I thought we were just stating what each song means to us, which is surely all anyone can do.

midnightmover: "My claim requires far less stretching and is consistent with the known facts, fits the context, etc. Prince lives in a culture inundated with those ideas about "freedom". It just happens to match exactly the rhetoric of politicians, etc. That all fits. But what's the context for your alternative explanation? The idea that we may have to get militaristic against the military. If that was the case then it would totally jar with the message that things are pretty good here that the song otherwise gives."

I fail to see why the lyrics of 'Free' have to fit with the situation Prince was living in at the time. Have you considered that it might be hypothetical? We are free to make choices about our lives today but would you be prepared to fight for your freedom if they were under threat? If you insist on taking it literally, I assume you are saying that Prince is asking us to go and join the American military to engage in the Libyan conflict, which was ongoing at the time. Once again, I think that it's you who's stretching here.

Shall we go back to 'America'? Let's go.

midnightmover: "Please tell me exactly where in the lyric Prince criticizes the priviledged leaders who only care about making money."

"Aristocrats on a mountain climb - Making money, losing time"

What does this mean to you?

midnightmover: "When he talks about "little sister" making minimum wage his message is the same one he gives in "Free" which is that she's lucky she's not in a Communist country. That may well be true, but it's also exactly the kind of argument right-wingers make to stop people from protesting injustices here at home."

Little sister making minimum wage - Living in a 1-room jungle-monkey cage - Can't get over, she's almost dead

But he is protesting here. Things are so bad that he can't understand how she can manage to survive. Yes, he's saying that she still values her freedom with "she's happy she ain't in the red", but I don't believe he's sidestepping her predicament. On the contrary, he's challenging us to do something about it.

midnightmover: "You say that Prince is criticizing people "being made to pledge allegiance when there's nothing to be proud of". No, it's Jimmy Nothing, the foolish character in the song who resents being made to pledge allegiance. Jimmy Nothing thinks there's nothing to be proud of and Prince clearly disagrees with that. He's using Jimmy Nothing as a negative example to deter people from having those unpatriotic views. The very name "Jimmy Nothing" tells you that Prince is criticizing him. The name itself is a diss."

Sure, the name Jimmy Nothing could be "a diss", or it could be a description of the environment he was born into. I've always heard it as he has nothing, and so nobody expects anything of him. Maybe he didn't go to school because he's an idiot or maybe it's because the American education system let him down.

Prince asks us "Teacher, why won't Jimmy pledge allegiance?" Why would he do that if he just thought Jimmy was a fool? In my opinion, he's asking us to face up to the problems in our society while still valuing the freedom we have. We're lucky to have what we have but we shouldn't overlook our failures. If you look at the structure of the lyrics, you'll see how these two themes are repeated in the rhymic shift from criticisms of America to warnings against communism.

Only valid point made in this post is the one about "aristocrats". That line is indeed a criticism of the elite but it doesn't change the fact that "America" is essentially an anti-Communist song that promotes patriotism.

Jimmy Nothing's lack of patriotism is clearly being condemned by Prince. Whatever the cause of Jimmy's lack of patriotism the real point is that Prince sees it as a bad thing. That is the point.

The song suggests that if our patriotism is weak we could all either die from a nuclear bomb or else the government could fall and communism would go from being just a word to being a living reality for all Americans. It requires some pretty twisted logic to avoid this rather obvious fact.

KingSausage said:

KoolEaze said:

I know.

Now isn´t it great that some orgers discuss the lyrics in a Prince song and Prince´s political stance in a civil manner like it should be ? On a board dedicated to Prince and his music?

I find your comments on this thread and you calling some orgers "nutbags" a bit strange, and, to be honest, a bit disappointing, because I usually agree with many of your posts and quite like you since day one.

What do you dislike so much about this thread and its participants? I think Midnightmover came up with some excellent examples and arguments, and yes, Prince´s views and how they have changed over the years and discussing the song "Free" are a good reason to have a discussion, no?

I don´t really understand the level of mild aggression on this thread.

Midnightwhatever's posts are so seething with hate for Americans that he's lost all rationale perspective on Free. The song is a fairly simple, non-objectionable number buried in the back half of a classic album. Trying to associate it with Reagan-era support for the Mujahadeen etc etc is ludicrous. The soldiers marching? Clearly it's representing soldiers marching trying to take away people's freedoms. It's just a simple song against totalitarianism and expressing joy and appreciation for freedom. There's nothing saying it's ONLY about America, and it has NOTHING to do with whomever's issues over all the terrible things the United States government has done. I don't care how Prince's views have changed over the years. We're talking about interpreting the lyrics to Free. People are looking WAY too deep into this song and projecting their own prejudices and ridiculous assumptions onto it. People want to think America is nothing but hate and Reagan and militarism and sponsoring juntas and so on? That's bullshit. America is also jazz and rock and blue and funk and great artists of all types. It irks me when threads get bogged down in anti-American bullshit. I don't back down from that.

Sounds to me like you identify way too much with your government. When I talk about the evil things America has done (and is still doing) I'm obviously talking about the tiny group who actually have power, not the vast majority of Americans who are largely unaware of the atrocities being committed in their name.

And no, I am not reading too much into "Free". I've already said it's a beautiful song that has some lovely sentiments in it. But there is another element in the song too, which is underscored by the sound of soldiers' marching feet at the end. The 24-year old Prince was clearly showing a certain naivete there. At the height of the Cold War it was perhaps understandable that he would find some of the cultural kool-aid he'd ingested leaking into one or two of his songs. I'm not making a big deal of it. I'm just refusing to be in denial. It's there. And it's obvious.