funksterr said:

Aerogram said:

Simplistic and awfully reductive. If Prince's goal was always to sell the most records, he would have continued building on his For You/Prince fanbase by releasing a glossy follow up, instead he released Dirty Mind -- you say he made disco when it was hot, then funk, then gangsta rap, I see you don't mention he created a little trend called the Minneapolis sound that fits nicely between "funk" and "gangsta rap".

I see you didn't deny what I said was true. I'm not sure if there is anyone in the history of music, maybe Weird AL Yankovic and his parody/comedy albums, who has trend-jummped as much as Prince. Certainly not any musician as capable as he is.

Dirty Mind was an attempt to bust out of the R&B trap of the times and SELL MORE as a rock freakshow act. It didn't work out. Controversy is that polished followup you mentioned earlier. The Minneapolis Sound IS funk.

Uhhmm no. Too many problems with those statements. I can't deal with them all. Prince has sold what 100 million albums or so, but you say he has little talent for being massively commercial. *sigh*

Prince is more than a mere pop star, he's one of the greatest musicians alive and has the discography to prove he was far from just chasing trends, anyone who knows anything about music history should know as much and clearly you don't.

A popstar is the pinnacle of success. Everybody in music wants to be #1 Pop. No major label on Earth is releasing music hoping it won't sell much. They churn that shit out trying to make money. The "art" label doesn't cut it.

Yes I deny that when "disco was hot", "funk was hot", Prince simply made "disco", "funk", but you have "too many problems with my statements" to understand it I guess. He famously had a MIX of styles on most of his eighties records, but don't let that stop you from blatantly simplifying by saying he just made "disco", "funk" -- too complicated to remember Bambi, his rock a billy phase, his rock ballads, some folk influenced songs, etc. You present things as if Prince was just exploiting trends, I guess I must have missed the years where he was releasing one grunge record after the other. Why complicate things when you can just pretend they're very simple? Too hard on the brain I guess.

charting 2 albums. 30 years after purple rain=commercial clout imo.

show up out of nowhere, boom: snl - network tv then poof disappear when you feel like it=CLOUT.

terrig said:

charting 2 albums. 30 years after purple rain=commercial clout imo.

show up out of nowhere, boom: snl - network tv then poof disappear when you feel like it=CLOUT.

Yep.

terrig said:

charting 2 albums. 30 years after purple rain=commercial clout imo.

show up out of nowhere, boom: snl - network tv then poof disappear when you feel like it=CLOUT.

He diappeared because both of his shitty albums flopped and going on TV didn't help.

Adorecream said:

Just my 2 cents here, but 5 basic reasons, why Prince is not moving product like he used too. These are my opinions and my observations of his post 2000 output. Not every reason here applies to every album released since then, but at least 3 dog each Prince album. Would appreciate your feedback and suggestion though rather than "Your list sux" etc, if it does, why does it.

.

In order

.

5. Bizarre Releasing patterns. Releasing albums to British newspapers, online websites that cost money and to certain markets only. 20 Ten and Planet Earth are the most common examples of this. Making it hard to get and frustrating for fans does not help your case if you want to be respected as a master artist. If anything you are trying to kill your prime market (For Prince, mostly hardly core fans) and it makes look more like a pratt than ever. But at least the latest albums and a few others have been released using traditional channels - stores, downloads.

.

4. Segues, Instrumentals, spoken word excerpts. When producing music for a niche audience and mostly mature fans, we do not need spoken word segues like Affirmation, Darth Vader Voices, silly dub overs, 40 second long musical segues and the like. For goodness sake use quality control Prince. You notice there are no affirmations or 40 second jazz segues on SOTT or 1999! Also with Prince you know the number of quality songs left off an album to make way for a pointless spoken word sequence or 40 seconds of a conversation in Spanish or Pig Latin is frustrating.

.

3. Media gag in general. - Not promoting any released music is bad enough, but suppressing all forms of fan comment, reviews and videos on Youtube is just saying "Please kill off my career now". It also makes him look like a complete douchebag. If Prince put as much energy into making high quality albums, that he did shutting down Youtube videos and trying to gag fan sites like Housequake. Also hsi own media attempts of recent years have been laughable with Lotusflow3r.com and his one or two twitter and Facebook posts.

.

2. Plugging proteges and sexy muses - This is not a new problem with Prince, if its 19, got big tits and squeaks along to a Prince bassline, he will promote it. Forcing some of 3rd eye girl's lesser moments, Bria Valente and Tamar on his own projects does him no favours. Plus Prince you are in your mid 50s, chasing around 18 to 23 year girly girls and given them albums of your rejects and making us buy them is not a good way to keep fans. Even worse is that most of these vanity projects never do that well and seem to have less talent than all of the big boobed sex kitten fluff on the charts now. Seriously, if we had not had 3rd eye girl, we would not have been inflicted with Boytrouble.

Seriously does anyone still know of Tamar, listen to the Bria disc we were forced to buy or care about Andy Allo anymore?

.

1= Intolerance - Making music in the 21st century has meant that nearly anyone can be a star, we have Gays, Arabs, Trannies and all sorts of people making music and becoming stars now. Promoting outdated and hateful ultra Protestant Christianity in music is so passe and left to camp and frightening Christian music of the mid to late 20th century. We don't care that you love Jehovah or hate gays and write songs about Jews having family names. Also turning your back on everything that made you famous, sex, swearing and sheer inventiveness is also affecting your core base of friends. Although Prince is a JW and hardcore Christian, not that many of his fans are and many fans are likely to be liberal and intellectual, not briandead sheeple controlled by money based Christian hate cults.

.

1 = Lack of Promotion - Goes back to reason 5 with the lack of releasing for Planet Earth and 20Ten and also all the new singles have had no release, Prince has to have a gun held to his head just to make a video now. Every other chart artist promotes the heck out of their new songs/albums and Prince sits there twiddling his thumbs. Albums lately have charted highly, but have dropped like lead balloons due to lack of promotion. More of this would help erode the general public image of him as an eccentric weirdo who changed his name to a symbol and fought with his record company. Come on Prince, make the people want it. I noticed the few mates of mine who have heard songs of AOA have usually bought a copy and wonder why they barely knew of it. One even could not believe it was the Purple Rain guy and his 20 somethink album since then.

.

So just my feelings and ideas, nothing new, but something that has occupied my thoughts, now 3 months after its release, the new albums are nearly forgotten.

Aerogram said:

funksterr said:

A popstar is the pinnacle of success. Everybody in music wants to be #1 Pop. No major label on Earth is releasing music hoping it won't sell much. They churn that shit out trying to make money. The "art" label doesn't cut it.

Yes I deny that when "disco was hot", "funk was hot", Prince simply made "disco", "funk", but you have "too many problems with my statements" to understand it I guess. He famously had a MIX of styles on most of his eighties records, but don't let that stop you from blatantly simplifying by saying he just made "disco", "funk" -- too complicated to remember Bambi, his rock a billy phase, his rock ballads, some folk influenced songs, etc. You present things as if Prince was just exploiting trends, I guess I must have missed the years where he was releasing one grunge record after the other. Why complicate things when you can just pretend they're very simple? Too hard on the brain I guess.

Ok... I didn't really understand that either. Sounds like you are nitpicking my post looking for something to have issue with. You do know that Prince is a popstar right? Yes he's a kickass musician alongside that who can write and play his own material, but always form a pop music perspective. First and foremost he's about pop music styles. Nothing wrong with that at all. His writing decision making, even during his peak years, were sales and marketing driven. He wanted to be popular. After achieving a number of hits, he began to take that idea more or less seriously depending on his bankruptcy and contract status. But yeah, he's trying to go number 1 pop, whenever he can.

funksterr said:

Aerogram said:

Yes I deny that when "disco was hot", "funk was hot", Prince simply made "disco", "funk", but you have "too many problems with my statements" to understand it I guess. He famously had a MIX of styles on most of his eighties records, but don't let that stop you from blatantly simplifying by saying he just made "disco", "funk" -- too complicated to remember Bambi, his rock a billy phase, his rock ballads, some folk influenced songs, etc. You present things as if Prince was just exploiting trends, I guess I must have missed the years where he was releasing one grunge record after the other. Why complicate things when you can just pretend they're very simple? Too hard on the brain I guess.

Ok... I didn't really understand that either. Sounds like you are nitpicking my post looking for something to have issue with. You do know that Prince is a popstar right? Yes he's a kickass musician alongside that who can write and play his own material, but always form a pop music perspective. First and foremost he's about pop music styles. Nothing wrong with that at all. His writing decision making, even during his peak years, were sales and marketing driven. He wanted to be popular. After achieving a number of hits, he began to take that idea more or less seriously depending on his bankruptcy and contract status. But yeah, he's trying to go number 1 pop, whenever he can.

Sorry to jump in here, but it seems like you don't really know Prince's history very well. You are waaaaay off on a lot of your claims. There are numerous exceptions to a lot of your sweeping statements.

-

Sure, sometimes Prince is going BIG/COMMERCIAL and aiming for #1. Sometimes he definitely isn't. Prince has often purposefully NOT gone after the most lucrative commercial choice when writing/recording/releasing/promoting music. He definitely is not someone who is always approaching music from a pop perspective. Especially compared to his peers like Michael Jackson and Madonna.

-

You should definitely read/view a few of the following for some good insight on Prince's actual career, artistic, and commercial motivations:

http://www.amazon.com/Let...rds=Prince

-

http://www.amazon.com/Wou...rds=Prince

-

http://www.amazon.com/Pri...Q380NA504M

-

http://www.amazon.com/Dan...CCMB21G6YS

[Edited 1/5/15 18:12pm]

therat said:

terrig said:

charting 2 albums. 30 years after purple rain=commercial clout imo.

show up out of nowhere, boom: snl - network tv then poof disappear when you feel like it=CLOUT.

He diappeared because both of his shitty albums flopped and going on TV didn't help.

No, Prince comes and goes whenEVER he wants to. When HE is done, he's done. He's onto the next thing and when its time for us to know, we'll know. Prince works on his time, no one elses.

Prince could have easily maintained his iconic Purple Rain look, he could have taken the Purple Rain tour around the world in 1985 and he could have released the Prince and the Revolution Live concert also as his next album in 1985 on record, cassette and CD, and Prince could have made all of his follow ups to his biggest success, the Purple Rain album, sound just like the Purple Rain album does if he really wanted to maintain his superstar Purple Rain statue and milk if for all he could have. Instead he took his music in many different directions with his subsequent albums Around the World in a Day, etc. because he's obviously interested more in music as art, rather than how big he is on the pop charts. He never would have made noncommerial albums in the first place if he just cared about having commercal hit pop songs played on the radio and trying to be "The King of Pop" and interested in having the most mainstream commercial success he could possibly have and winning as many Grammy Awards as he possibly could. He never would have changed music directions away from the Purple Rain sound if he just cared about commercial success.

Prince explained in an interview with the Los Angeles Haerald Examiner in March, 1981, "I wasn't gearing myself toward anything except my own personal satifaction."
Prince said in an interview with Melody Maker published on June 6th, 1981, "You say to yourself, 'Well, do I just wanna be real big or do I wanna do something I'll be proud of and really enjoy playing?'"
Prince explained in an interview with the Los Angeles Times published on November 21st, 1982, "I usually write hits for other people, and those are the songs I throw away and don't really care for. I usually change directions with each record, which is a problem in some respects, but rewarding and fulfilling for me."
Prince explained further in an interview with Rolling Stone published on September 12th, 1985, "You know how easy it would have been to open Around the World in a Day with the guitar solo that's on the end of 'Let's Go Crazy'? You know how easy it would have been to just put it in a different key? That would have shut everybody up who said the album wasn't half as powerful. I don't want to make an album like the earlier ones. Wouldn't it be cool to be able to put your albums back to back and not get bored, you dig?
More than anything else, I try not to repeat myself.
I think that's the problem with the music industry today. When a person does get a hit, they try to do it again the same way. I don't think I've ever done that. I write all the time and cut all the time. I want to show you the archives, where all my old stuff is. There's tons of music I've recorded there. I have the follow-up album to 1999. I could put it all together and play it for you, and you would go 'Yeah!' And I could put it out, and it would probably sell what 1999 did. But I always try to do something different and conquer new ground."

http://princetext.tripod....one85.html

Prince said in an interview with Rolling Stone published in August, 1990, "I'm always going forward, always trying to surprise myself. It's not about hits. I knew how to make hits by my second album."
http://princetext.tripod....one90.html

rudeboynpg said:

Prince could have easily maintained his iconic Purple Rain look, he could have taken the Purple Rain tour around the world in 1985 and he could have released the Prince and the Revolution Live concert also as his next album in 1985 on record, cassette and CD, and Prince could have made all of his follow ups to his biggest success, the Purple Rain album, sound just like the Purple Rain album does if he really wanted to maintain his superstar Purple Rain statue and milk if for all he could have. Instead he took his music in many different directions with his subsequent albums Around the World in a Day, etc. because he's obviously interested more in music as art, rather than how big he is on the pop charts. He never would have made noncommerial albums in the first place if he just cared about having commercal hit pop songs played on the radio and trying to be "The King of Pop" and interested in having the most mainstream commercial success he could possibly have and winning as many Grammy Awards as he possibly could. He never would have changed music directions away from the Purple Rain sound if he just cared about commercial success.

Prince explained in an interview with the Los Angeles Haerald Examiner in March, 1981, "I wasn't gearing myself toward anything except my own personal satifaction."
Prince said in an interview with Melody Maker published on June 6th, 1981, "You say to yourself, 'Well, do I just wanna be real big or do I wanna do something I'll be proud of and really enjoy playing?'"
Prince explained in an interview with the Los Angeles Times published on November 21st, 1982, "I usually write hits for other people, and those are the songs I throw away and don't really care for. I usually change directions with each record, which is a problem in some respects, but rewarding and fulfilling for me."
Prince explained further in an interview with Rolling Stone published on September 12th, 1985, "You know how easy it would have been to open Around the World in a Day with the guitar solo that's on the end of 'Let's Go Crazy'? You know how easy it would have been to just put it in a different key? That would have shut everybody up who said the album wasn't half as powerful. I don't want to make an album like the earlier ones. Wouldn't it be cool to be able to put your albums back to back and not get bored, you dig?
More than anything else, I try not to repeat myself.
I think that's the problem with the music industry today. When a person does get a hit, they try to do it again the same way. I don't think I've ever done that. I write all the time and cut all the time. I want to show you the archives, where all my old stuff is. There's tons of music I've recorded there. I have the follow-up album to 1999. I could put it all together and play it for you, and you would go 'Yeah!' And I could put it out, and it would probably sell what 1999 did. But I always try to do something different and conquer new ground."

http://princetext.tripod....one85.html

Prince said in an interview with Rolling Stone published in August, 1990, "I'm always going forward, always trying to surprise myself. It's not about hits. I knew how to make hits by my second album."
http://princetext.tripod....one90.html

Yep.........

Adorecream, I'll sum it up in one reason - he's almost 60.

Nobody cares anymore.

rudeboynpg said:

Prince explained in an interview with the Los Angeles Haerald Examiner in March, 1981, "I wasn't gearing myself toward anything except my own personal satifaction."
Prince said in an interview with Melody Maker published on June 6th, 1981, "You say to yourself, 'Well, do I just wanna be real big or do I wanna do something I'll be proud of and really enjoy playing?'"

Although around "Emancipation" that stopped being true. There are large portions of that album and many since which have never been played live. So that must he isn't proud of them? Since he doesn't seem to enjoy playing them?

Prince explained in an interview with the Los Angeles Times published on November 21st, 1982, "I usually write hits for other people, and those are the songs I throw away and don't really care for. I usually change directions with each record, which is a problem in some respects, but rewarding and fulfilling for me."

That is pure PR speak. He's written relitively few hits for other artists. If it was that easy then every single he released would be a #1. I say that retrospectively speaking of course. When Prince said that back in 82 it probably was true.

Prince explained further in an interview with Rolling Stone published on September 12th, 1985, "You know how easy it would have been to open Around the World in a Day with the guitar solo that's on the end of 'Let's Go Crazy'? You know how easy it would have been to just put it in a different key? That would have shut everybody up who said the album wasn't half as powerful. I don't want to make an album like the earlier ones. Wouldn't it be cool to be able to put your albums back to back and not get bored, you dig?
More than anything else, I try not to repeat myself.

Thats a fair comment. Back then it was probably true. He has said no such thing as of late. By the time Rave Un2 the joy fantastic failed to perform as expected that was no longer the case and Prince was falling off in terms of being a contemporary pop star. Prince wasn't controversial anymore. He was using gimmicks like "Produced by Prince". For the first time Prince was pandering to his fans. Using "tested formulas". He was desperate for a hit song and no matter what he did it never happened. To be completely fair, Rave un2/in2 have both aged well imo.

Rave proved probably to Prince more than anyone that the general public wasn't feeling him. This is when he dissapeared off into his Jazz period. There is probably a strong argument that both Warner and Arista executives were bad mouthing him as much as he was them. Thus resulting in Prince being taken off radio playlists etc.

Musicology was arguably his "Comeback" but that was more to do with a clever marketing strategy and a huge tour. Not a success per se but it put him back in the public concious. Still no hit song. With 3121 he romanced the hollywood celebs to create a buzz, the album did ok, but still no hit song. Lotusflow3r was the next commercial album which did ok, but still no hit song.

Then we have AOA/PE the former doing ok, the latter not so much. Still... no hit song. Since RAVE, no matter how long Prince goes away for when he mounts a "comeback" it results in a moderately successful album and no hit song. There is striking trend there and it grew from RAVE onwards.

Noodled24 said:

rudeboynpg said:

Prince explained in an interview with the Los Angeles Haerald Examiner in March, 1981, "I wasn't gearing myself toward anything except my own personal satifaction."
Prince said in an interview with Melody Maker published on June 6th, 1981, "You say to yourself, 'Well, do I just wanna be real big or do I wanna do something I'll be proud of and really enjoy playing?'"

Although around "Emancipation" that stopped being true. There are large portions of that album and many since which have never been played live. So that must he isn't proud of them? Since he doesn't seem to enjoy playing them?

That is pure PR speak. He's written relitively few hits for other artists. If it was that easy then every single he released would be a #1. I say that retrospectively speaking of course. When Prince said that back in 82 it probably was true.

Prince explained further in an interview with Rolling Stone published on September 12th, 1985, "You know how easy it would have been to open Around the World in a Day with the guitar solo that's on the end of 'Let's Go Crazy'? You know how easy it would have been to just put it in a different key? That would have shut everybody up who said the album wasn't half as powerful. I don't want to make an album like the earlier ones. Wouldn't it be cool to be able to put your albums back to back and not get bored, you dig?
More than anything else, I try not to repeat myself.

Thats a fair comment. Back then it was probably true. He has said no such thing as of late. By the time Rave Un2 the joy fantastic failed to perform as expected that was no longer the case and Prince was falling off in terms of being a contemporary pop star. Prince wasn't controversial anymore. He was using gimmicks like "Produced by Prince". For the first time Prince was pandering to his fans. Using "tested formulas". He was desperate for a hit song and no matter what he did it never happened. To be completely fair, Rave un2/in2 have both aged well imo.

Rave proved probably to Prince more than anyone that the general public wasn't feeling him. This is when he dissapeared off into his Jazz period. There is probably a strong argument that both Warner and Arista executives were bad mouthing him as much as he was them. Thus resulting in Prince being taken off radio playlists etc.

Musicology was arguably his "Comeback" but that was more to do with a clever marketing strategy and a huge tour. Not a success per se but it put him back in the public concious. Still no hit song. With 3121 he romanced the hollywood celebs to create a buzz, the album did ok, but still no hit song. Lotusflow3r was the next commercial album which did ok, but still no hit song.

Then we have AOA/PE the former doing ok, the latter not so much. Still... no hit song. Since RAVE, no matter how long Prince goes away for when he mounts a "comeback" it results in a moderately successful album and no hit song. There is striking trend there and it grew from RAVE onwards.

All good points. However, have you ever noticed that as soon as Prince split with WB in 1995/6 that he stopped having hit singles?

-

Is this because he changed his approach in writing/making music?

-

Research would indicate that he basically has maintained his same creative process as always. Anything that's been documented about Prince's process states pretty convincingly that he has the same approach in the studio as he has had from day one.

-

Did Prince stop having hit singles because of lack of "good" or "strong" or "commercial" material?

-

I don't think so. A lot of people here at the org equate quality with chart success, but we know that's not true. Ask yourself: is your favorite Prince song ever a number one single? Is the best Prince song a "hit"? Most of my favorite Prince songs weren't even released as singles.

-

Example A: There were many songs on The Gold Experience that should/could have been "hit" songs. Hell, "Pussy Control" was everywhere in the clubs without even being released as a single. Yet, Prince and WB were locked into a pissing match over this album and it's promotion/release was bungled on both sides.

-

Example B: Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic. "So far, So Pleased" wasn't released as a single? That song was SOOOOO 1999 friendly and Gwen Stefani was at her peak. Clive Davis didn't have the stroke to get that song on the radio? Nope, Clive Davis got canned from Arista right in the middle of the promotion of the Rave album.

-

It is no coincidence (or conspiracy) that as soon as Prince started badmouthing his label that he stopped getting airplay and stopped getting singles that cracked the top 10.

-

Having a hit song hasn't been about audience's requests, or appetites, for along time. It's about who stands to make money from a hit. How many people get paid these days if Prince has a hit? Mostly Prince. It's been that way since he left WB.

-

Even when Prince was tearing shit up in the 80's he had his share of singles that tanked. "If I was Your Girlfriend" is one of his all time classics, right? It also flopped hard enough as a single to almost derail the Sign O' The Times promotion.

-

I guess my whole point of this rant is this:

Prince sometimes plays "the game" when it comes to promotion. Sometimes he does it well, sometimes he loses interest. It's been that way throughout his career. Most of having a hit song/album is about timing and pimping. Purple Rain was when the stars aligned. Art and commerce were equally matched and the world experienced a mania that it had not witnessed since The Beatles.

-

Within the industry, Prince is legendary for putting art before commerce. Often to a fault. You don't change your name to a symbol and go on your own if you are in it only for the $$$$$.

-

Lastly, does Bruce Springsteen's fans worry about why he doesn't have hit singles?

Do U2 fans worry about itunes faux pas and the band not having hit singles?

"

...I've been to the mountain top
And it ain't what you say,

Don't play me,I'm the wrong color and I play guitar
My only competition is well in the past
Time and time if time existed movin' ever so fast
Don't play me

You couldn't play enough of me now
To make me feel like a star
Don't play me, I already do in my car..."

[Edited 1/6/15 20:40pm]

[Edited 1/6/15 20:41pm]

He plays the promotion game every few years.

I think for any artist, when they can sell out the local theater and get to hear their song on the radio, they've "made it". Anything past that is the next level where you have to bring more people into the mix, people who start telling you what they think is good for you, but he's always fought that.

I think he did what he could to promote it. It doesn't matter if an artist can sell a stadium out that's his age. David Gilmour put a Pink Floyd album out and it did fine for being mostly instrumental, but it's more of a last hurrah to the fans. But he still did a solo album and that project with The Orb. Pink Floyd could sell stadiums out but his solo albums didn't sell much. It's all about the name and imagery with PF, that's the commercial clout - the history.

The Rolling Stones did do something that was interesting - taking their vault songs, re-recording them and putting them as the bonus tracks on their reissues, as well as recording new songs for their greatest hits. It probably made them more money than trying to put a whole new album out, but they basically had a new album spread over 3 separate projects. Prince has gone back in the vault and re-recorded songs but they were digital singles.

Noodled24 said:

rudeboynpg said:

Prince explained in an interview with the Los Angeles Haerald Examiner in March, 1981, "I wasn't gearing myself toward anything except my own personal satifaction."
Prince said in an interview with Melody Maker published on June 6th, 1981, "You say to yourself, 'Well, do I just wanna be real big or do I wanna do something I'll be proud of and really enjoy playing?'"

Although around "Emancipation" that stopped being true. There are large portions of that album and many since which have never been played live. So that must he isn't proud of them? Since he doesn't seem to enjoy playing them?

That is pure PR speak. He's written relitively few hits for other artists. If it was that easy then every single he released would be a #1. I say that retrospectively speaking of course. When Prince said that back in 82 it probably was true.

Prince explained further in an interview with Rolling Stone published on September 12th, 1985, "You know how easy it would have been to open Around the World in a Day with the guitar solo that's on the end of 'Let's Go Crazy'? You know how easy it would have been to just put it in a different key? That would have shut everybody up who said the album wasn't half as powerful. I don't want to make an album like the earlier ones. Wouldn't it be cool to be able to put your albums back to back and not get bored, you dig?
More than anything else, I try not to repeat myself.

Thats a fair comment. Back then it was probably true. He has said no such thing as of late. By the time Rave Un2 the joy fantastic failed to perform as expected that was no longer the case and Prince was falling off in terms of being a contemporary pop star. Prince wasn't controversial anymore. He was using gimmicks like "Produced by Prince". For the first time Prince was pandering to his fans. Using "tested formulas". He was desperate for a hit song and no matter what he did it never happened. To be completely fair, Rave un2/in2 have both aged well imo.

Rave proved probably to Prince more than anyone that the general public wasn't feeling him. This is when he dissapeared off into his Jazz period. There is probably a strong argument that both Warner and Arista executives were bad mouthing him as much as he was them. Thus resulting in Prince being taken off radio playlists etc.

Musicology was arguably his "Comeback" but that was more to do with a clever marketing strategy and a huge tour. Not a success per se but it put him back in the public concious. Still no hit song. With 3121 he romanced the hollywood celebs to create a buzz, the album did ok, but still no hit song. Lotusflow3r was the next commercial album which did ok, but still no hit song.

Then we have AOA/PE the former doing ok, the latter not so much. Still... no hit song. Since RAVE, no matter how long Prince goes away for when he mounts a "comeback" it results in a moderately successful album and no hit song. There is striking trend there and it grew from RAVE onwards.

A lot of those Emancipation songs in 1996 were about him planning to settle down and become a father and about the unborn baby and love songs to pregnant Mayte about his marriage. But after the baby was born with skeletal abnormality known as Pfeiffer's Syndrome and died, and his marriage was suffering from that trauma, I understand why he didn't want to play those songs live and focus on all of that drama that was going on in his personal life. He did play some of the other Emancipation songs regularly at the time on the Jam of the Year tour in 1997, etc.

Back in '82, etc. when he said "I usually write hits for other people, and those are the songs I throw away and don't really care for." that was true, back when he still had his strong focused side projects and protegees, he did give away hits to The Time, Vanity 6, Apollonia 6, Sheila E, Sheena Easton instead of keeping all of those songs for himself as hits for himself.

[Edited 1/7/15 12:37pm]

rudeboynpg said:

A lot of those Emancipation songs in 1996 were about him planning to settle down and become a father and about the unborn baby and love songs to pregnate Mayte about his marriage. But after the baby was born with skeletal abnormality known as Pfeiffer's Syndrome and died, and his marriage was suffering from that truama, I understand why he didn't want to play those songs live and focus on all of that drama that was going on in his personal life. He did play some of the other Emancipation songs regularly at the time on the Jam of the Year tour in 1997, etc.

I can understand that with Emancipation. But then what about Rave? and every other album since. He rarely plays much from new albums. I'm not saying he never does, but nothing like the way he used to.

Back in '82, etc. when he said "I usually write hits for other people, and those are the songs I throw away and don't really care for." that was true, back when he still had his strong side projects and protegees, he did give away hits to The Time, Vanity 6, Apollonia 6, Sheila E, Sheena Easton instead of keeping all of those songs for himself as hits for himself.

[Edited 1/7/15 5:37am]

But he also gave away "Kiss" then took it back once someone worked it out for him. So he certainly wasn't completely selfless.

skywalker said:

funksterr said:

Ok... I didn't really understand that either. Sounds like you are nitpicking my post looking for something to have issue with. You do know that Prince is a popstar right? Yes he's a kickass musician alongside that who can write and play his own material, but always form a pop music perspective. First and foremost he's about pop music styles. Nothing wrong with that at all. His writing decision making, even during his peak years, were sales and marketing driven. He wanted to be popular. After achieving a number of hits, he began to take that idea more or less seriously depending on his bankruptcy and contract status. But yeah, he's trying to go number 1 pop, whenever he can.

Sorry to jump in here, but it seems like you don't really know Prince's history very well. You are waaaaay off on a lot of your claims. There are numerous exceptions to a lot of your sweeping statements.

-

Sure, sometimes Prince is going BIG/COMMERCIAL and aiming for #1. Sometimes he definitely isn't. Prince has often purposefully NOT gone after the most lucrative commercial choice when writing/recording/releasing/promoting music. He definitely is not someone who is always approaching music from a pop perspective. Especially compared to his peers like Michael Jackson and Madonna.

-

You should definitely read/view a few of the following for some good insight on Prince's actual career, artistic, and commercial motivations:

http://www.amazon.com/Let...rds=Prince

-

http://www.amazon.com/Wou...rds=Prince

-

http://www.amazon.com/Pri...Q380NA504M

-

http://www.amazon.com/Dan...CCMB21G6YS

[Edited 1/5/15 18:12pm]

Bull-crap. I've read all those books and then some. Remind me of the instances that ever happened.

What the MJ Bad duet offer? Do you think that would have still been a hit with Prince on it? It had more of a chance of ending both their careers. Especially Prince, whose popularity was on the wane at that point. But MJ too who even at that time was seeming odd as fuck for taking Emanuel Lewis and other boys out on dates to award shows and whatnot.

You say Prince avoided money, and I say he made a judgement call and did something he was more comfortable with, that gave him full control, more respect and all the credit as well as all the money should it succeed.

Name the instances when Prince purposefully avoided money........or purposely avoided chasing pop trends.

Adorecream said:

Just my 2 cents here, but 5 basic reasons, why Prince is not moving product like he used too. These are my opinions and my observations of his post 2000 output. Not every reason here applies to every album released since then, but at least 3 dog each Prince album. Would appreciate your feedback and suggestion though rather than "Your list sux" etc, if it does, why does it.

.

In order

.

5. Bizarre Releasing patterns. Releasing albums to British newspapers, online websites that cost money and to certain markets only. 20 Ten and Planet Earth are the most common examples of this. Making it hard to get and frustrating for fans does not help your case if you want to be respected as a master artist. If anything you are trying to kill your prime market (For Prince, mostly hardly core fans) and it makes look more like a pratt than ever. But at least the latest albums and a few others have been released using traditional channels - stores, downloads.

.

4. Segues, Instrumentals, spoken word excerpts. When producing music for a niche audience and mostly mature fans, we do not need spoken word segues like Affirmation, Darth Vader Voices, silly dub overs, 40 second long musical segues and the like. For goodness sake use quality control Prince. You notice there are no affirmations or 40 second jazz segues on SOTT or 1999! Also with Prince you know the number of quality songs left off an album to make way for a pointless spoken word sequence or 40 seconds of a conversation in Spanish or Pig Latin is frustrating.

.

3. Media gag in general. - Not promoting any released music is bad enough, but suppressing all forms of fan comment, reviews and videos on Youtube is just saying "Please kill off my career now". It also makes him look like a complete douchebag. If Prince put as much energy into making high quality albums, that he did shutting down Youtube videos and trying to gag fan sites like Housequake. Also hsi own media attempts of recent years have been laughable with Lotusflow3r.com and his one or two twitter and Facebook posts.

.

2. Plugging proteges and sexy muses - This is not a new problem with Prince, if its 19, got big tits and squeaks along to a Prince bassline, he will promote it. Forcing some of 3rd eye girl's lesser moments, Bria Valente and Tamar on his own projects does him no favours. Plus Prince you are in your mid 50s, chasing around 18 to 23 year girly girls and given them albums of your rejects and making us buy them is not a good way to keep fans. Even worse is that most of these vanity projects never do that well and seem to have less talent than all of the big boobed sex kitten fluff on the charts now. Seriously, if we had not had 3rd eye girl, we would not have been inflicted with Boytrouble.

Seriously does anyone still know of Tamar, listen to the Bria disc we were forced to buy or care about Andy Allo anymore?

.

1= Intolerance - Making music in the 21st century has meant that nearly anyone can be a star, we have Gays, Arabs, Trannies and all sorts of people making music and becoming stars now. Promoting outdated and hateful ultra Protestant Christianity in music is so passe and left to camp and frightening Christian music of the mid to late 20th century. We don't care that you love Jehovah or hate gays and write songs about Jews having family names. Also turning your back on everything that made you famous, sex, swearing and sheer inventiveness is also affecting your core base of friends. Although Prince is a JW and hardcore Christian, not that many of his fans are and many fans are likely to be liberal and intellectual, not briandead sheeple controlled by money based Christian hate cults.

.

1 = Lack of Promotion - Goes back to reason 5 with the lack of releasing for Planet Earth and 20Ten and also all the new singles have had no release, Prince has to have a gun held to his head just to make a video now. Every other chart artist promotes the heck out of their new songs/albums and Prince sits there twiddling his thumbs. Albums lately have charted highly, but have dropped like lead balloons due to lack of promotion. More of this would help erode the general public image of him as an eccentric weirdo who changed his name to a symbol and fought with his record company. Come on Prince, make the people want it. I noticed the few mates of mine who have heard songs of AOA have usually bought a copy and wonder why they barely knew of it. One even could not believe it was the Purple Rain guy and his 20 somethink album since then.

.

So just my feelings and ideas, nothing new, but something that has occupied my thoughts, now 3 months after its release, the new albums are nearly forgotten.

Obviously some real thinking behind this but I find each point to be invalid to some degree or another.

funksterr said:

skywalker said:

All good points. However, have you ever noticed that as soon as Prince split with WB in 1995/6 that he stopped having hit singles?

-

It wasn't immediate. Emancipation was on EMI and spawned two top 20 singles in the UK. RAVE flopped. It was a big budget album with lots of guest stars and the first single stalled at #65. Prince was still hitting the top 20 right up until 1999 (the year not the song) although the song was released twice that year and hit #10 and #40 respectively.

Is this because he changed his approach in writing/making music?

I want to say no, but in a way yes. He started to pander, this album he put something online about bringing back the linn drum machine? He was digging up songs from the vault and changing them - which is fine. But for someone who constantly talks about moving forward and new music? He was using guest stars to try and appeal to younger fans.

-

Research would indicate that he basically has maintained his same creative process as always. Anything that's been documented about Prince's process states pretty convincingly that he has the same approach in the studio as he has had from day one.

-

Did Prince stop having hit singles because of lack of "good" or "strong" or "commercial" material?

-

I don't think so. A lot of people here at the org equate quality with chart success, but we know that's not true. Ask yourself: is your favorite Prince song ever a number one single? Is the best Prince song a "hit"? Most of my favorite Prince songs weren't even released as singles.

-

Example A: There were many songs on The Gold Experience that should/could have been "hit" songs. Hell, "Pussy Control" was everywhere in the clubs without even being released as a single. Yet, Prince and WB were locked into a pissing match over this album and it's promotion/release was bungled on both sides.

TGE had a couple of hit singles both top 20, three if you count TMBGITW. Same with Emancipation 2 top 20 singles. By the time Rave dropped Prince had hit a wall.

Chart position does not equate quality. Of course not. But charts show trends and stats which can often spark debates. It is interesting and somewhat ironic that 1999 killed his career (commercially)

Example B: Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic. "So far, So Pleased" wasn't released as a single? That song was SOOOOO 1999 friendly and Gwen Stefani was at her peak. Clive Davis didn't have the stroke to get that song on the radio? Nope, Clive Davis got canned from Arista right in the middle of the promotion of the Rave album.

-

It is no coincidence (or conspiracy) that as soon as Prince started badmouthing his label that he stopped getting airplay and stopped getting singles that cracked the top 10.

By the time RAVE flopped he'd had ALL his shit with WB. He'd walked away from EMI. Then it was all starting again with Arista. It became obvious to everyone that the record labels were not the problem.
I don't think there is any kind of conspiracy against him. But I doubt he has many friends in high places anymore.

Having a hit song hasn't been about audience's requests, or appetites, for along time. It's about who stands to make money from a hit. How many people get paid these days if Prince has a hit? Mostly Prince. It's been that way since he left WB.

Not WB, by the time he'd fallen out with 3 labels I suspect he'd made enough enemies and had such a horrific reputation within the industry that nobody was going to go out their way to push Prince. As such Prince was all over the place promoting RAVE and it just never took off. His image was dated, Rockstars of the time were wearing jeans and a tshirt they were down to earth and human. Prince was a diva in a shiny blue jumpsuit and white faux fur coat whos head was still in the stratosphere. His image made it almost impossible to take him seriously. He persisted in pushing ballads and slow jams as lead singles which didn't distance him enough from TMBGITW. He was seen as an "act" rather than a musician.

He was still able to write commercial sounding songs, but if we're being honest they were few and far between and people weren't buying them. You could argue that his image was the problem up until maybe Musicology. By then he'd toned down the "outfits" and had come back from his Jazz odyssey. Black Sweat could have been a hit if it'd been released a year or two earlier. By the time he released it, it sounded like a couple of other songs in the charts.

It always comes back to Prince's image. His lack of promotion/support and his preference for slow jam singles.

Noodled24 said:

rudeboynpg said:

A lot of those Emancipation songs in 1996 were about him planning to settle down and become a father and about the unborn baby and love songs to pregnate Mayte about his marriage. But after the baby was born with skeletal abnormality known as Pfeiffer's Syndrome and died, and his marriage was suffering from that truama, I understand why he didn't want to play those songs live and focus on all of that drama that was going on in his personal life. He did play some of the other Emancipation songs regularly at the time on the Jam of the Year tour in 1997, etc.

I can understand that with Emancipation. But then what about Rave? and every other album since. He rarely plays much from new albums. I'm not saying he never does, but nothing like the way he used to.

Back in '82, etc. when he said "I usually write hits for other people, and those are the songs I throw away and don't really care for." that was true, back when he still had his strong side projects and protegees, he did give away hits to The Time, Vanity 6, Apollonia 6, Sheila E, Sheena Easton instead of keeping all of those songs for himself as hits for himself.

[Edited 1/7/15 5:37am]

But he also gave away "Kiss" then took it back once someone worked it out for him. So he certainly wasn't completely selfless.

Well, I have the Rave Un2 the Year 2000 concert film and he definitely played some of the Rave album songs on that. I was at a concert on the One Nite Alone tour and he played a lot of the Rainbow Children songs, and he was refusing to play his popular hits during that tour. And I have the Prince Live concert DVD and the Prince One Nite Alone Live CD set and he played a lot of the Rainbow Children songs on those, too.

Yeah, Kiss he had given to Mazarati, not one of Prince's strong side projects, they were a Mark Brown side project, Prince's original version of Kiss was a blues song. Mazarati with producer David Z changed it into into an electro funk song and Prince loved it so much that he wanted the song back. Prince removed the bass line and added his own vocials. Was Prince a completely selfless saint? Of course not. Nobody is. During that same period he did give away the hit "Manic Monday" to the Bangles.

skywalker said:

Prince could have made a lot more money by continuing the Purple Rain machine. He could have taken the tour international. He didn't cash in. He shut down the money making behemoth and moved on. - He then released an artistic pastiche that was more Sgt. Pepper's than Purple Rain pt 2. Then, he made a black and white movie based on old Hollywood romance/comedies, with virtually no Prince musical performances, set in France. You tell me: we're these money driven career choices? - One the most obvious examples of Prince not chasing pop trends is by dropping the baseline from "when Doves Cry". C'mon, you are a Prince fan? That is like a rudimentary example...everyone knows that. - Who did that in pop music before Prince? Who would have the guts to put that song out as the lead single of one of their most important projects? Only Prince. - Again, this is basic Princefan 101 type of stuff. Maybe you are just trollin'? - Lastly, you already read Let's Go Crazy? It just came out! It literally goes in detail about Prince choosing the non commercial route for like the last two chapters!!! [Edited 1/7/15 14:58pm]

Absolutely they were. Some of his ideas didn't work out as well as he intended at the time. But, yes, he was aiming that high and he thought he could possibly dominate the pop music/culture scene with those moves. And rightfully so, because he has also taken a lot of big risks that have paid off: WDC, as you mentioned, but really it's his whole career. Advanced risk-taking is part of the game for Prince. Every album. That is the one consistent trait you will find throughout Prince's music. In fact, it's so much a part of his character as an artist, that's it one of the ways you can identify his presence, or lack thereof on a track. High risk, high reward. Success on his own terms.

What you describe, is failure on his own terms, and I don't think Prince's ego can even entertain the idea of an album tanking, or poorly attended concerts and bad reviews. I've never heard him talk in those terms. No, he tries to carve a new path to the top everytime out. Not a path to the bottom, while making an artistic statement. Of course often times, he ends up at the bottom anyway because his ambition knows no bounds, but that's not what he intended putting the albums together. He was aiming for hits.

Noodled24 said:

skywalker said:

All good points. However, have you ever noticed that as soon as Prince split with WB in 1995/6 that he stopped having hit singles?

-

It wasn't immediate. Emancipation was on EMI and spawned two top 20 singles in the UK. RAVE flopped. It was a big budget album with lots of guest stars and the first single stalled at #65. Prince was still hitting the top 20 right up until 1999 (the year not the song) although the song was released twice that year and hit #10 and #40 respectively.

By the time RAVE flopped he'd had ALL his shit with WB. He'd walked away from EMI. Then it was all starting again with Arista. It became obvious to everyone that the record labels were not the problem.
I don't think there is any kind of conspiracy against him. But I doubt he has many friends in high places anymore.

Having a hit song hasn't been about audience's requests, or appetites, for along time. It's about who stands to make money from a hit. How many people get paid these days if Prince has a hit? Mostly Prince. It's been that way since he left WB.

Not WB, by the time he'd fallen out with 3 labels I suspect he'd made enough enemies and had such a horrific reputation within the industry that nobody was going to go out their way to push Prince. As such Prince was all over the place promoting RAVE and it just never took off. His image was dated, Rockstars of the time were wearing jeans and a tshirt they were down to earth and human. Prince was a diva in a shiny blue jumpsuit and white faux fur coat whos head was still in the stratosphere. His image made it almost impossible to take him seriously. He persisted in pushing ballads and slow jams as lead singles which didn't distance him enough from TMBGITW. He was seen as an "act" rather than a musician.

He was still able to write commercial sounding songs, but if we're being honest they were few and far between and people weren't buying them. You could argue that his image was the problem up until maybe Musicology. By then he'd toned down the "outfits" and had come back from his Jazz odyssey. Black Sweat could have been a hit if it'd been released a year or two earlier. By the time he released it, it sounded like a couple of other songs in the charts.

It always comes back to Prince's image. His lack of promotion/support and his preference for slow jam singles.

3 things:

-

1. I've underlined everything that is conjecture/speculation/or simply your opinion of things.

-

2. Having two top 20 singles in the UK isn't the same as having a top 10 hit in the US. It's like the old Spinal Tap joke about being #1 in a relatively obscure Asian country. Or Hasselhoff being big in Germany. Yes, it was chart success, but significantly less than when he had THE machine behind him.

-

3. In 1999 rockers were wearing t-shirt and jeans? That's more like 1993. In 1999, Britney Spears, N'Sync, and Eminem ruled the world of pop.

-

I don't buy your take on Prince's image suddenly being a problem in 1999 (after 20 years of prior fashion freakiness on his part.) When did Prince dress like everyone else? Ever?

-

Here what the most successful rocker of 1999 (chartwise) was wearing that year:

[img:$uid]http://i563.pho.../img:$uid]

-

Not exactly blue jeans and a t-shirt.

[Edited 1/7/15 18:28pm]

funksterr said:

skywalker said:

Prince could have made a lot more money by continuing the Purple Rain machine. He could have taken the tour international. He didn't cash in. He shut down the money making behemoth and moved on. - He then released an artistic pastiche that was more Sgt. Pepper's than Purple Rain pt 2. Then, he made a black and white movie based on old Hollywood romance/comedies, with virtually no Prince musical performances, set in France. You tell me: we're these money driven career choices? - One the most obvious examples of Prince not chasing pop trends is by dropping the baseline from "when Doves Cry". C'mon, you are a Prince fan? That is like a rudimentary example...everyone knows that. - Who did that in pop music before Prince? Who would have the guts to put that song out as the lead single of one of their most important projects? Only Prince. - Again, this is basic Princefan 101 type of stuff. Maybe you are just trollin'? - Lastly, you already read Let's Go Crazy? It just came out! It literally goes in detail about Prince choosing the non commercial route for like the last two chapters!!! [Edited 1/7/15 14:58pm]

Absolutely they were. Some of his ideas didn't work out as well as he intended at the time. But, yes, he was aiming that high and he thought he could possibly dominate the pop music/culture scene with those moves. And rightfully so, because he has also taken a lot of big risks that have paid off: WDC, as you mentioned, but really it's his whole career. Advanced risk-taking is part of the game for Prince. Every album. That is the one consistent trait you will find throughout Prince's music. In fact, it's so much a part of his character as an artist, that's it one of the ways you can identify his presence, or lack thereof on a track. High risk, high reward. Success on his own terms.

What you describe, is failure on his own terms, and I don't think Prince's ego can even entertain the idea of an album tanking, or poorly attended concerts and bad reviews. I've never heard him talk in those terms. No, he tries to carve a new path to the top everytime out. Not a path to the bottom, while making an artistic statement. Of course often times, he ends up at the bottom anyway because his ambition knows no bounds, but that's not what he intended putting the albums together. He was aiming for hits.

I agree with most of what your are saying. Yet, you are now claiming something slightly different than your previous stance of: Prince makes music with the aim to get $$$$ and pop hits.

-

Without a doubt Prince is aiming for the top, to carve out a new path, and for success. However, hits and money aren't necessarily what defines success to Prince. I agree with your whole take on his character and traits as an artist. Basically, I am with you on everything I underlined. I really think you have nailed it. Yet, that's not the same as your posit that he was "aiming for hits." Sometimes he is. Success on Prince's terms is not the same as success in the pop music's terms.

-

Even though lovesexy was a relative flop in the US, Prince was quoted as feeling it was a success because people would tell him that the record saved/changed their lives, etc. This

[Edited 1/7/15 18:40pm]

RJOrion said:

rudeboynpg said:

Noodled24 said:

But he also gave away "Kiss" then took it back once someone worked it out for him. So he certainly wasn't completely selfless.

Well, I have the Rave Un2 the Year 2000 concert film and he definitely played some of the Rave album songs on that. I was at a concert on the One Nite Alone tour and he played a lot of the Rainbow Children songs, and he was refusing to play his popular hits during that tour. And I have the Prince Live concert DVD and the Prince One Nite Alone Live CD set and he played a lot of the Rainbow Children songs on those, too.

On the RAVE DVD I count two songs from the RAVE album. TGRES and Baby Knows. Pretty Man was played on TFI Friday (I think). There might be a couple of others. Not many though, and certainly not frequently.
Yes during the One Night Alone Tour he was playing a lot of rarely played songs, and quite a bit from the Rainbow Children. TRC he was clearly very proud of. What about the other albums since then.

Yeah, Kiss he had given to Mazarati, not one of Prince's strong side projects, they were a Mark Brown side project, Prince's original version of Kiss was a blues song. Mazarati with producer David Z changed it into into an electro funk song and Prince loved it so much that he wanted the song back. Prince removed the bass line and added his own vocials. Was Prince a completely selfless saint? Of course not. Nobody is. During that same period he did give away the hit "Manic Monday" to the Bangles.

I'm not arguing that he wasn't giving away some big hits back in the early 80. The interview you quoted was accurate back then. Today it holds no bearing. What was the last song he wrote and gave to another artist who then had a top 10 or top 20 hit? Any point in the past 20 years?

skywalker said:

funksterr said:

Absolutely they were. Some of his ideas didn't work out as well as he intended at the time. But, yes, he was aiming that high and he thought he could possibly dominate the pop music/culture scene with those moves. And rightfully so, because he has also taken a lot of big risks that have paid off: WDC, as you mentioned, but really it's his whole career. Advanced risk-taking is part of the game for Prince. Every album. That is the one consistent trait you will find throughout Prince's music. In fact, it's so much a part of his character as an artist, that's it one of the ways you can identify his presence, or lack thereof on a track. High risk, high reward. Success on his own terms.

What you describe, is failure on his own terms, and I don't think Prince's ego can even entertain the idea of an album tanking, or poorly attended concerts and bad reviews. I've never heard him talk in those terms. No, he tries to carve a new path to the top everytime out. Not a path to the bottom, while making an artistic statement. Of course often times, he ends up at the bottom anyway because his ambition knows no bounds, but that's not what he intended putting the albums together. He was aiming for hits.

I agree with most of what your are saying. Yet, you are now claiming something slightly different than your previous stance of: Prince makes music with the aim to get $$$$ and pop hits.

-

Without a doubt Prince is aiming for the top, to carve out a new path, and for success. However, hits and money aren't necessarily what defines success to Prince. I agree with your whole take on his character and traits as an artist. Basically, I am with you on everything I underlined. I really think you have nailed it. Yet, that's not the same as your posit that he was "aiming for hits." Sometimes he is. Success on Prince's terms is not the same as success in the pop music's terms.

-

Even though lovesexy was a relative flop in the US, Prince was quoted as feeling it was a success because people would tell him that the record saved/changed their lives, etc. This

[Edited 1/7/15 18:40pm]

Ok we know where we agree, but why do you believe he does not aim to have hits in the first place? I don't believe you can write, what, 50-60 hit songs (??,idk) without really trying hard to write them in the first place.

skywalker said:

Noodled24 said:

Not WB, by the time he'd fallen out with 3 labels I suspect he'd made enough enemies and had such a horrific reputation within the industry that nobody was going to go out their way to push Prince. As such Prince was all over the place promoting RAVE and it just never took off. His image was dated, Rockstars of the time were wearing jeans and a tshirt they were down to earth and human. Prince was a diva in a shiny blue jumpsuit and white faux fur coat whos head was still in the stratosphere. His image made it almost impossible to take him seriously. He persisted in pushing ballads and slow jams as lead singles which didn't distance him enough from TMBGITW. He was seen as an "act" rather than a musician.

He was still able to write commercial sounding songs, but if we're being honest they were few and far between and people weren't buying them. You could argue that his image was the problem up until maybe Musicology. By then he'd toned down the "outfits" and had come back from his Jazz odyssey. Black Sweat could have been a hit if it'd been released a year or two earlier. By the time he released it, it sounded like a couple of other songs in the charts.

It always comes back to Prince's image. His lack of promotion/support and his preference for slow jam singles.

3 things:

-

1. I've underlined everything that is conjecture/speculation/or simply your opinion of things.

No you haven't. When an artist cuts ties with the record company who has supported them since their first demo, then burns through 2 more record companies (along with a failed internet release) citing their lack of promotion as the reason. It's obviously not the record companies who are at fault. WB, EMI & Arista did not put out a Prince album then cross their fingers and hope they lose money on it.

2. Having two top 20 singles in the UK isn't the same as having a top 10 hit in the US. It's like the old Spinal Tap joke about being #1 in a relatively obscure Asian country. Or Hasselhoff being big in Germany. Yes, it was chart success, but significantly less than when he had THE machine behind him.

It'd be kind of like that spinal tap joke if the UK was an obscure country in Asia. It's his second biggest market. The numbers aren't as big as the states but the exposure that comes from it is big not just in the UK but often mirrored throughout Europe.
Undoubtably WB had the most invested in Prince. He was with them the longest and by all accounts moved mountains to accomodate his whim and fancy. EMI not so much, but Aristia, I think they went all in with RAVE.

3. In 1999 rockers were wearing t-shirt and jeans? That's more like 1993. In 1999, Britney Spears, N'Sync, and Eminem ruled the world of pop.

Eminem literally still wears jeans and a tshirt. Celebrity began to change. Music was increasingly becoming "real". Prince just looked old hat next to a new breed. People were looking to the new millennium and Prince was reviving a concept from the 80's.

I don't buy your take on Prince's image suddenly being a problem in 1999 (after 20 years of prior fashion freakiness on his part.) When did Prince dress like everyone else? Ever?

It's not just my take. You can see the trend on the charts. He went from having relatively easy access into the UK top 20 singles. To barely cracking the top 50.
Sure Prince has always had a kind of wacky dress sense. But at a time when celebrities were trying to be seen as normal people Prince was more aloof than ever, talking about "Prince" and "" as if they were two different people.

Here what the most successful rocker of 1999 (chartwise) was wearing that year:

Not exactly blue jeans and a t-shirt.

Fair shout. But thats one pic from one night, and it's a suit rather than a onezie. Again I'm not trying to pin it on that outfit as being the reason for his decline on the charts. I'm just saying it didn't help.

I think his image in general was a big problem. Nobody could relate to him. He was 40? Offering a pop fluff album with no real substance, the only theme was "guest stars". He was turning up to do TV with gold dust in his hair and sparkly makeup on. The story then wasn't "Prince releases new album". It was "I met Prince and he's not as weird as you might think". It all looked dated and old hat.

He was pushing ballads - TGRES is a great song (for someone else). He picked it as the lead single and when it came time to perform it live - he was singing over a keyboard loop and dancing about a bit. It was dull. Thats fine if you're Britney or Justin. Prince wasn't being seen as a musician but a dated balladeer.

Again, don't get me wrong because I think it was during his promotion for RAVE that he performed "Motherless Child" - which is hands down legendary. But it's very telling performance. There is another performance where he kicks into TGRES and then stops and changes the song like he was bored of his own single. There was also a strong element of having been crowned "His royal badness" he'd become "Mr Middle of the road"

paulludvig said:

funksterr said:

Ok we know where we agree, but why do you believe he does not aim to have hits in the first place? I don't believe you can write, what, 50-60 hit songs (??,idk) without really trying hard to write them in the first place.

What I am saying is that I think Prince just writes/makes/plays music. Some songs, sure, he probably thinks is a good "fit" for commerical use, and maybe care to push them to be a "hit." Some songs he definitely writes and records regardless of the fact that they don't "fit" any type of commerical format.

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Prince often talks about that he still writes/puts songs together in terms of albums. Writing every song to be a "hit" is a Michael Jackson type of thing. From all of the Prince reading/research I have done, he doesn't create in that mode.