jaypotton said:

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

Its a disgrace that Larry Prince's closest friend gets so hated on here. Eye never had a problem with Prince's spritual awakenings. Everybody changes, Prince has always been interchangeable...He is Gemini.

Hmm really tough call and other posters are right that seemingly hating on someone for their religious beliefs is as bad as for the colour of your skin!

Personally I do not feel strongly about Larry Graham either way and obviously do not know the man! His bass playing is superb but his singing does not appeal (I did buy two albums off the back of Prince bringing him to my attention).

For me I do not like Prince being a JW (and it was through Larry that P became a JW). Apart from the music one of the things that drew me to Prince in the early 80s was his all inclusive approach to people, sexuality and spirituality. He embraced and welcomed peoples of any creed, colour, sexuality or religious belief. He espoused a belief in God that also accepted and allowed for people to be sexual (which is a human condition).

The JW are the antithisis of this. They are not inclusive or accepting of difference in any way. Being a JW has caused Prince to say some really awful things including dissing Wendy & Lisa for being gay! It has also changed the lyrical content of his songs, some of which contain sexist and racist messages! Personally I think that is a real shame!

THAT is where some of the hate for Larry Graham comes from. Hate is not deserved but dislike for changing someone who was so open into someone who is so closed is actually well deserved IMHO.

That's all well and good, and there are deeply sinister sides to the ways the JWs comport themselves (although I have lived next to a JW couple for years and they've been perfectly decent people), but it seems very immature to blame Larry fully for Prince's conversion. Prince is a thinking, adult human being, and he made the choice of his own volition. Even if one can criticse Larry for bringing JW doctrine into Prince's life, it was Prince's ultimate choice to become one, Larry didn't chloroform Prince and bring him to the secret JW temple, where he was brainwashed into accepting their ideals. If people don't like Prince's being a JW, well then the blame ultimately lies with Prince for deciding to become one, and hate shouldn't be irrationally directed at Larry.

purplethunder3121 said:

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

Its a disgrace that Larry Prince's closest friend gets so hated on here. Eye never had a problem with Prince's spritual awakenings. Everybody changes, Prince has always been interchangeable...He is Gemini.

JWs don't believe in Geminis.

jaypotton said:

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

Its a disgrace that Larry Prince's closest friend gets so hated on here. Eye never had a problem with Prince's spritual awakenings. Everybody changes, Prince has always been interchangeable...He is Gemini.

Hmm really tough call and other posters are right that seemingly hating on someone for their religious beliefs is as bad as for the colour of your skin!

Personally I do not feel strongly about Larry Graham either way and obviously do not know the man! His bass playing is superb but his singing does not appeal (I did buy two albums off the back of Prince bringing him to my attention).

For me I do not like Prince being a JW (and it was through Larry that P became a JW). Apart from the music one of the things that drew me to Prince in the early 80s was his all inclusive approach to people, sexuality and spirituality. He embraced and welcomed peoples of any creed, colour, sexuality or religious belief. He espoused a belief in God that also accepted and allowed for people to be sexual (which is a human condition).

The JW are the antithisis of this. They are not inclusive or accepting of difference in any way. Being a JW has caused Prince to say some really awful things including dissing Wendy & Lisa for being gay! It has also changed the lyrical content of his songs, some of which contain sexist and racist messages! Personally I think that is a real shame!

THAT is where some of the hate for Larry Graham comes from. Hate is not deserved but dislike for changing someone who was so open into someone who is so closed is actually well deserved IMHO.

Eye never felt Prince's muziq was just all about sex b 4 he became a JW. U r right Prince had a way of intertwining sexuality & sprituality. But he definitely hasn't abandoned sexual innuendo in his muziq, since becoming a JW.

Have U listened to the lyrics of his recent songs? "Breakfast Can't Wait"(which is really the other side of R Kelly's "Sex In the Kitchen" lol) Also the breaking down the headboard in "Turn Me Loose"! If that is not about sex, Eye don't know what is... Also the much hated here title "Future Baby Mama"(that won him a recent Grammy). The list goes on. Peeps here just like to criticize Prince's new friends and women. Eye'm glad he doesn't care what U think.

Prince becoming a JW hasn't changed anything, but made him more happy & @ peace with himself..

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

jaypotton said:

Hmm really tough call and other posters are right that seemingly hating on someone for their religious beliefs is as bad as for the colour of your skin!

Personally I do not feel strongly about Larry Graham either way and obviously do not know the man! His bass playing is superb but his singing does not appeal (I did buy two albums off the back of Prince bringing him to my attention).

For me I do not like Prince being a JW (and it was through Larry that P became a JW). Apart from the music one of the things that drew me to Prince in the early 80s was his all inclusive approach to people, sexuality and spirituality. He embraced and welcomed peoples of any creed, colour, sexuality or religious belief. He espoused a belief in God that also accepted and allowed for people to be sexual (which is a human condition).

The JW are the antithisis of this. They are not inclusive or accepting of difference in any way. Being a JW has caused Prince to say some really awful things including dissing Wendy & Lisa for being gay! It has also changed the lyrical content of his songs, some of which contain sexist and racist messages! Personally I think that is a real shame!

THAT is where some of the hate for Larry Graham comes from. Hate is not deserved but dislike for changing someone who was so open into someone who is so closed is actually well deserved IMHO.

That's all well and good, and there are deeply sinister sides to the ways the JWs comport themselves (although I have lived next to a JW couple for years and they've been perfectly decent people), but it seems very immature to blame Larry fully for Prince's conversion. Prince is a thinking, adult human being, and he made the choice of his own volition. Even if one can criticse Larry for bringing JW doctrine into Prince's life, it was Prince's ultimate choice to become one, Larry didn't chloroform Prince and bring him to the secret JW temple, where he was brainwashed into accepting their ideals. If people don't like Prince's being a JW, well then the blame ultimately lies with Prince for deciding to become one, and hate shouldn't be irrationally directed at Larry.

It's not as if Larry had converted a 16 y.o., easily influenced Justin Bieber. P was in his late 30's when he bacame close friends with Larry, old enough to make his own choices. So P has to be blamed if anyone. But if we start blaming people for their religious beliefs ain't we sinking back into the dark ages?

databank said:

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

That's all well and good, and there are deeply sinister sides to the ways the JWs comport themselves (although I have lived next to a JW couple for years and they've been perfectly decent people), but it seems very immature to blame Larry fully for Prince's conversion. Prince is a thinking, adult human being, and he made the choice of his own volition. Even if one can criticse Larry for bringing JW doctrine into Prince's life, it was Prince's ultimate choice to become one, Larry didn't chloroform Prince and bring him to the secret JW temple, where he was brainwashed into accepting their ideals. If people don't like Prince's being a JW, well then the blame ultimately lies with Prince for deciding to become one, and hate shouldn't be irrationally directed at Larry.

It's not as if Larry had converted a 16 y.o., easily influenced Justin Bieber. P was in his late 30's when he bacame close friends with Larry, old enough to make his own choices. So P has to be blamed if anyone. But if we start blaming people for their religious beliefs ain't we sinking back into the dark ages?

Oh yeah, totally, I was just using "blame" in the way most people here seemed to be blaming Larry for a personal choice Prince made. I don't particularly like certain practises of the Jehovah's, but that doesn't mean that one should hold anything against their adherents. I might not be so open-minded if Prince had become a radical Wahhabi, but hopefully that won't happen any time soon.

databank said:

The hate 4 Larry Graham is irrational and based on religious discrimination only. He's a living legend of funk and his 2012 album was awesome (nothing groundbreaking but funky as hell!). There's a very SMALL step between dissing a man for the color of his skin and doing it for his religious beliefs. If Graham wasn't a JW, everyone would be like "wow, too cool". I never read people complaining that Maceo Parker b on a Prince album, still Larry and Maceo are quite similar in terms of generation, musical achievements and importance to the history of Black music. Larry Graham is an awesome bass player and y'all know it, and it also was reported constantly by anyone who ever met him that he's a very kind, warm and generous man. So please show some respect at least for the musician if not for the man.

Larry Graham is a legend and a musical treasure.

Without him we would not have the funky slap bass technique.

Even Bootsy Collins points to Larry as the one who created this sound.

He seems like a very nice man, always kind.

I don't care if he's JW or any other religion.

However, I do not like the effect he has had on Prince when it comes to religion.

And, I will never like seeing or hearing a Sly & The Family Stone / GCS set in the middle or a Prince show.

I'm sick and tired of that crap...

databank said:

Pentacle said:

But is Maceo a JW...?

Anyway, even though cultmembers are known to pray on the weak, you can't really blame Larry for Prince's dismal output of the last 18 years. The well had already dried up.

Half my family is JW and as long as we're not discussing religion, they can be quite nice

Maceo isn't a JW, that's my point: we're talking religious discrimination here..

Nobody's talking religious discrimination.

Nobody's preventing him from his religious practices.

Nobody's denying him anything because of his religion.

It's also a religious freedom to not like or believe in a specific religion and to say so.

Believing that JW is a cult is no more discriminatory than a JW believing non-JW's are going to hell.

If one of us owned a club and wouldn't book him because of his religion, that would be discriminatory.

If I owned a record store and wouldn't stock him because of his religion, that might be discriminatory.

Not wanting him to be around or influence Prince because of his religion, that's just good sense.

Not trying to flame you databank, I get your point. Larry is a musical legend, I agree with this!

Just tired of him being connected to Prince...

jaypotton said:

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

Its a disgrace that Larry Prince's closest friend gets so hated on here. Eye never had a problem with Prince's spritual awakenings. Everybody changes, Prince has always been interchangeable...He is Gemini.

Hmm really tough call and other posters are right that seemingly hating on someone for their religious beliefs is as bad as for the colour of your skin!

Personally I do not feel strongly about Larry Graham either way and obviously do not know the man! His bass playing is superb but his singing does not appeal (I did buy two albums off the back of Prince bringing him to my attention).

For me I do not like Prince being a JW (and it was through Larry that P became a JW). Apart from the music one of the things that drew me to Prince in the early 80s was his all inclusive approach to people, sexuality and spirituality. He embraced and welcomed peoples of any creed, colour, sexuality or religious belief. He espoused a belief in God that also accepted and allowed for people to be sexual (which is a human condition).

The JW are the antithisis of this. They are not inclusive or accepting of difference in any way. Being a JW has caused Prince to say some really awful things including dissing Wendy & Lisa for being gay! It has also changed the lyrical content of his songs, some of which contain sexist and racist messages! Personally I think that is a real shame!

THAT is where some of the hate for Larry Graham comes from. Hate is not deserved but dislike for changing someone who was so open into someone who is so closed is actually well deserved IMHO.

databank said:

errant said:

databank said:

The hate 4 Larry Graham is irrational and based on religious discrimination only. He's a living legend of funk and his 2012 album was awesome (nothing groundbreaking but funky as hell!). There's a very SMALL step between dissing a man for the color of his skin and doing it for his religious beliefs. If Graham wasn't a JW, everyone would be like "wow, too cool". I never read people complaining that Maceo Parker b on a Prince album, still Larry and Maceo are quite similar in terms of generation, musical achievements and importance to the history of Black music. Larry Graham is an awesome bass player and y'all know it, and it also was reported constantly by anyone who ever met him that he's a very kind, warm and generous man. So please show some respect at least for the musician if not for the man.

1) Fuck his religion. Fuck all religions. 2) I never disliked him as a musician until I saw him play live with Prince. His style is stale and old-fashioned, his wife running around doing some dance with a towel, and him taking his shoes off and holding them up was a real turn off. 3) Fuck his religion. His religion is bullshit because they're all bullshit.

So let's kill 'em all, then.

djThunderfunk said:

databank said:

Maceo isn't a JW, that's my point: we're talking religious discrimination here..

Nobody's talking religious discrimination.

Nobody's preventing him from his religious practices.

Nobody's denying him anything because of his religion.

It's also a religious freedom to not like or believe in a specific religion and to say so.

Believing that JW is a cult is no more discriminatory than a JW believing non-JW's are going to hell.

If one of us owned a club and wouldn't book him because of his religion, that would be discriminatory.

If I owned a record store and wouldn't stock him because of his religion, that might be discriminatory.

Not wanting him to be around or influence Prince because of his religion, that's just good sense.

Not trying to flame you databank, I get your point. Larry is a musical legend, I agree with this!

Just tired of him being connected to Prince...

Prince has always been a religious fanatic, he didn't need Larry. I don't have any JW connections, I think most of 'em r way to radical but that's a free world, I respect their freedom to be stubborn and to believe I'll go 2 hell because anyway I know I won't. I have a lot of respect for Larry, actually someone who was in P's camp told me once that he probably had a lot of positive influence on P, who used to be totally emotionally isolated from everyone around him and treat people like shit, and Larry possibly talked him into treating people with more respect and connecting to them a bit more. I think Larry Graham's the kind of man to do that. I don't mind the religious aspects of P's lyrics, never did before he became a JW neither afterwards: I think it's basically the exact same thing that's been expressed with different words from 1978 to now. And I don't mind P not cursing anymore or not singing Head anymore. I curse a lot but I don't need the F word to be all over a song to enjoy it, and I think P would look like an ass singing Darling Nikki or Head while being 56 years old.

databank said:

hmmm this is turning into a bit of a hate thread. IMHO all religions and all people of all creeds and sexuality should be treated with respect. My point above was THAT USED TO BE HOW PRINCE WAS BEFORE HE BECAME A JW. But no longer. The JW do not respect other people's views and certainly actively criticize people for their sexuality. THAT IS NOT WHAT PRINCE USED TO BE ABOUT.

So *I* do not like Prince being a JW because it changed him for, IMHO, the worse. It is not about whether he writes dirty lyrics anymore - look at his treatment of spirituality on Lovesexy = beautiful.

As I said I do not feel strongly about Larry Graham as I do not know him. However, it was LG who introduced Prince to JW during a period in Prince's life when he was in a vert dark place having lost his child. He was vulnerable and looking for "something" to explain his loss. LG gave him that and, as some of you indicate, it would appear that Prince is happier for it. That IS a good thing...

But is a BAD thing to become so closed minded and discriminatory against others when in the past he was so inclusive.

databank said:

djThunderfunk said:

Nobody's talking religious discrimination.

Nobody's preventing him from his religious practices.

Nobody's denying him anything because of his religion.

It's also a religious freedom to not like or believe in a specific religion and to say so.

Believing that JW is a cult is no more discriminatory than a JW believing non-JW's are going to hell.

If one of us owned a club and wouldn't book him because of his religion, that would be discriminatory.

If I owned a record store and wouldn't stock him because of his religion, that might be discriminatory.

Not wanting him to be around or influence Prince because of his religion, that's just good sense.

Not trying to flame you databank, I get your point. Larry is a musical legend, I agree with this!

Just tired of him being connected to Prince...

Prince has always been a religious fanatic, he didn't need Larry. I don't have any JW connections, I think most of 'em r way to radical but that's a free world, I respect their freedom to be stubborn and to believe I'll go 2 hell because anyway I know I won't. I have a lot of respect for Larry, actually someone who was in P's camp told me once that he probably had a lot of positive influence on P, who used to be totally emotionally isolated from everyone around him and treat people like shit, and Larry possibly talked him into treating people with more respect and connecting to them a bit more. I think Larry Graham's the kind of man to do that. I don't mind the religious aspects of P's lyrics, never did before he became a JW neither afterwards: I think it's basically the exact same thing that's been expressed with different words from 1978 to now. And I don't mind P not cursing anymore or not singing Head anymore. I curse a lot but I don't need the F word to be all over a song to enjoy it, and I think P would look like an ass singing Darling Nikki or Head while being 56 years old.

Sorry databank but do not agree with that at all. Prince sang about spirituality not a specific religious creed before turning JW. His belief in God was inclusive not exclusive - massive difference!

jaypotton said:

databank said:

Prince has always been a religious fanatic, he didn't need Larry. I don't have any JW connections, I think most of 'em r way to radical but that's a free world, I respect their freedom to be stubborn and to believe I'll go 2 hell because anyway I know I won't. I have a lot of respect for Larry, actually someone who was in P's camp told me once that he probably had a lot of positive influence on P, who used to be totally emotionally isolated from everyone around him and treat people like shit, and Larry possibly talked him into treating people with more respect and connecting to them a bit more. I think Larry Graham's the kind of man to do that. I don't mind the religious aspects of P's lyrics, never did before he became a JW neither afterwards: I think it's basically the exact same thing that's been expressed with different words from 1978 to now. And I don't mind P not cursing anymore or not singing Head anymore. I curse a lot but I don't need the F word to be all over a song to enjoy it, and I think P would look like an ass singing Darling Nikki or Head while being 56 years old.

Sorry databank but do not agree with that at all. Prince sang about spirituality not a specific religious creed before turning JW. His belief in God was inclusive not exclusive - massive difference!

Yep. Before JW it was all about "love is god, god is love, god loves all children up above", but then he became dogmatic and only "accurate knowledge" brings you "the everlasting now".

errant said:

databank said:

So let's kill 'em all, then.

Ummm, no. Let's just keep them out of the Prince experience. They've do e enough damage already.

Makes me wonder how u can be a P fan in the first place. Religion was there from day 1. It didn't start with Larry Graham or even Lovesexy, God was one of his obsessions from the beginning.

ludwig said:

jaypotton said:

Sorry databank but do not agree with that at all. Prince sang about spirituality not a specific religious creed before turning JW. His belief in God was inclusive not exclusive - massive difference!

Yep. Before JW it was all about "love is god, god is love, god loves all children up above", but then he became dogmatic and only "accurate knowledge" brings you "the everlasting now".

Let's agree to disagree

databank said:

errant said:

databank said: Ummm, no. Let's just keep them out of the Prince experience. They've do e enough damage already.

Makes me wonder how u can be a P fan in the first place. Religion was there from day 1. It didn't start with Larry Graham or even Lovesexy, God was one of his obsessions from the beginning.

Spirituality, not necessarily religion. Subscribing to a specific, completely backwards religion limited the scope of his spirituality. It made him less creative in his presentation of it. It made his treatment of the subject extremely banal.

databank said:

ludwig said:

Yep. Before JW it was all about "love is god, god is love, god loves all children up above", but then he became dogmatic and only "accurate knowledge" brings you "the everlasting now".

Let's agree to disagree

"There's no room to disagree" It doesn't get more obvious than this line, how close minded he became through the JW religion.

"Louder than the dogmatic persecution..."

jaypotton said:

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

Its a disgrace that Larry Prince's closest friend gets so hated on here. Eye never had a problem with Prince's spritual awakenings. Everybody changes, Prince has always been interchangeable...He is Gemini.

For me I do not like Prince being a JW (and it was through Larry that P became a JW). Apart from the music one of the things that drew me to Prince in the early 80s was his all inclusive approach to people, sexuality and spirituality. He embraced and welcomed peoples of any creed, colour, sexuality or religious belief.

Am I the only one here seeing the irony in all the JW hatred on this thread? (not aimed at you or your post specifically, btw)

ilo said:

You choose a belief. You're born with your skin. Big difference.

I don't think anyone said being black and being a JW was the same. They said the hatred towards JWs isn't too far removed from the hatred some express towards people because of their race. In other words, both are a form of bigotry. And as with pretty much all bigotry, those expressing it feel completely justified in their "hatred" (for lack of a better word).

Then again, this is prince.org, where we regularly try to find reasons to hate Prince for not having the manner of career we convinced ourselves he would "obviously" have 30 years ago lol...so maybe it's not bigotry, it's just the result of this weird intense fandom that has formed around the man.

[Edited 4/27/14 15:23pm]

databank said:

But if we start blaming people for their religious beliefs ain't we sinking back into the dark ages?

.

.

There's a difference between being intolerant of religious beliefs, and recognizing when religious beliefs which are intolerant. Don't equate the two.

djThunderfunk said:

Larry Graham is a legend and a musical treasure.

.

.

It's all true, but his work with Prince doesn't reflect that. If the collaboration was Sly Stone good, nobody would care what religion he was, or how much of a bigot they thought her was.

Yes I dislike/ hate that guy, Larry:


Larry Graham, Chaka Khan & Prince performing (and preaching) "The Cross '97" >>> renamed "The Christ".......

Larry Graham's preaching and singing in general, and his old lame ass music.


It's not only about his crazy beliefs in Jehovah, I hate all about that guy,

and, just to hear Prince play those old covers like Everyday People instead of his own Sexy Motherfucker, that is crazzy.

thedance said:

and, just to hear Prince play those old covers like Everyday People instead of his own Sexy Motherfucker, that is crazzy.

.

Sexy MF'er is a novelty tune of cornball proportions. Prince is Prince, and he can pull it off, but Everyday People is one of the great songs of our time. Only thing is, Prince's version isn't devistatingly good, even with the Family Stone behind him.

[Edited 4/28/14 10:23am]

Yes who really cares about Larry? all he did was 2 brainwash Prince into the cult and the cult made Prince mess up his lyrics and stop performing some of his greatest songs, so theres a reson why most fans are pissed off with Larry and JW. I must point out that I dont have any problems with Prince beliving in God cuz I do that aswell, its the cult/JW I don't like. They tend to take advantage of ppl when they are volnurable and take their money. If u really beliven in God, having God in ur heart and ur faith is strong, then u don't need 2 depend on different churches, religious groups etc

[Edited 4/28/14 1:15am]

[Edited 4/28/14 1:20am]

If Larry didn't come into Prince's life when he did. Prince wouldn't be where he is @ today totally owning his Masters & muziq publishing company or maybe even alive!. #FACT

[Edited 4/28/14 14:25pm]

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

If Larry didn't come into Prince's life when he did. Prince wouldn't be where he is @ today totally owning his Masters & muziq publishing company or maybe even alive! Mj didn't have that person to be a spiritual foundation 4 him & drowned himself instead with drugs. #FACT

You really need to get a life....