Sassey said:

Sassey said:

You care. You're in this Fdeluxe thread telling people what you think is uncalled for and you don't know what you're talking about because if you think somebody should care what you think is uncalled for, you're the one who really don't know jack shit. I really don't know why you even care if I get some peace for whatever issue me or Fdeluxe may have with Prince. There is no issue with you and you need to know certain members don't care about what you think is uncalled for but you can go on and say it and you'll keep getting what you're trolling for.

Exactly! I didn't understand why this person felt the need to troll my post and take personal offense to it. I don't know this person, nor does this person know me, but they sure as hell felt the need to try and bait me.

After all these years, the org hasn't changed one bit! Nothing but negative people looking to argue over nothing!

LovesexyIsThe1 said:

Sassey said:

You care. You're in this Fdeluxe thread telling people what you think is uncalled for and you don't know what you're talking about because if you think somebody should care what you think is uncalled for, you're the one who really don't know jack shit. I really don't know why you even care if I get some peace for whatever issue me or Fdeluxe may have with Prince. There is no issue with you and you need to know certain members don't care about what you think is uncalled for but you can go on and say it and you'll keep getting what you're trolling for.

Exactly! I didn't understand why this person felt the need to troll my post and take personal offense to it. I don't know this person, nor does this person know me, but they sure as hell felt the need to try and bait me.

After all these years, the org hasn't changed one bit! Nothing but negative people looking to argue over nothing!

I know. A few of them don't like me and this person who seems to think they speak for the others, has a problem with me for having a problem with Prince. I don't understand them but I think I've inspired Stymie to be a positive Prince cynic. Sort of an oxymoron I know but bickering with people about Prince is a tough job. The man can bring out the negative in his fans. I think Prince and his organization actually encourages the fans to argue over nothing by being so mysterious. I also think this whole thing with Fdeluxe and their videos getting taken down every few months is another one of his little publicity stunts. I think Paul and Prince had a friendly talk recently. It was before or after Paul went to one of his concerts just a few weeks ago.

[Edited 7/9/13 20:19pm]

LovesexyIsThe1 said:

Stymie said:

you obviously do not know what baiting or trolling is. I disagreed with your post and told you so. That's all there was to it. You're right: I don't know you from Adam and am glad of it. Funny you mention negative people when you came on this thread being negative. And I'm done with you, too.

Good. I'm glad.

I said nothing negative. you injected the negativity into my post!

funksterr said:

Exactly. Well said. I'd like to also add this, since Prince's Montreaux Jazz performance is coming up. Prince has a 22 piece horn section gimmick thing for the show. No Eric Leeds. WTF? Eric Leeds is the only reason anyone thinks Prince can do jazz at all. Prince had no ability to write songs for Miles Davis. He secretly had Eric Leeds do it, but to this day, Prince wants to mislead his fanbase into thinking he is at that particular skill level. He doesn't want anyone around him to be properly paid and celebrated for their talents and contributions because it would detract from the BIG LIE that he marketed himself on for 20-plus years. He did not do it all. Other people did things that contributed to his success.

You mean the 11 piece horn section? Why do you think that is a gimmick? Because of the number of players?

As to Eric Leeds writing music for Miles. Haven't heard the story. But if true, it seems like Miles wasn't impressed with Leeds' music, as it never got released. Not a great endorsement for Leeds, it it? Not surprised, though. The music Leeds has written by himself, for example on the album Times Squared, is pretty bland. Is Leeds really taken seriously in the jazz world? Does he get many phone calls to write, record or perform?

Miles of couse did record AND release one song with Prince, Sticky Wicked for Chaka Khan, but that song was clearly written by Prince. Seems like Miles liked Prince more than he liked Leeds.

Sassey said:

LovesexyIsThe1 said:

Exactly! I didn't understand why this person felt the need to troll my post and take personal offense to it. I don't know this person, nor does this person know me, but they sure as hell felt the need to try and bait me.

After all these years, the org hasn't changed one bit! Nothing but negative people looking to argue over nothing!

I know. A few of them don't like me and this person who seems to think they speak for the others, has a problem with me for having a problem with Prince. I don't understand them but I think I've inspired Stymie to be a positive Prince cynic. Sort of an oxymoron I know but bickering with people about Prince is a tough job. The man can bring out the negative in his fans. I think Prince and his organization actually encourages the fans to argue over nothing by being so mysterious. I also think this whole thing with Fdeluxe and their videos getting taken down every few months is another one of his little publicity stunts. I think Paul and Prince had a friendly talk recently. It was before or after Paul went to one of his concerts just a few weeks ago.

[Edited 7/9/13 20:19pm]

paulludvig said:

funksterr said:

Exactly. Well said. I'd like to also add this, since Prince's Montreaux Jazz performance is coming up. Prince has a 22 piece horn section gimmick thing for the show. No Eric Leeds. WTF? Eric Leeds is the only reason anyone thinks Prince can do jazz at all. Prince had no ability to write songs for Miles Davis. He secretly had Eric Leeds do it, but to this day, Prince wants to mislead his fanbase into thinking he is at that particular skill level. He doesn't want anyone around him to be properly paid and celebrated for their talents and contributions because it would detract from the BIG LIE that he marketed himself on for 20-plus years. He did not do it all. Other people did things that contributed to his success.

You mean the 11 piece horn section? Why do you think that is a gimmick? Because of the number of players?

As to Eric Leeds writing music for Miles. Haven't heard the story. But if true, it seems like Miles wasn't impressed with Leeds' music, as it never got released. Not a great endorsement for Leeds, it it? Not surprised, though. The music Leeds has written by himself, for example on the album Times Squared, is pretty bland. Is Leeds really taken seriously in the jazz world? Does he get many phone calls to write, record or perform?

Miles of couse did record AND release one song with Prince, Sticky Wicked for Chaka Khan, but that song was clearly written by Prince. Seems like Miles liked Prince more than he liked Leeds.

Since you don't know the story. I googled it if you are interested: http://www.thelastmiles.c...-leeds.php

funksterr said:

paulludvig said:

You mean the 11 piece horn section? Why do you think that is a gimmick? Because of the number of players?

As to Eric Leeds writing music for Miles. Haven't heard the story. But if true, it seems like Miles wasn't impressed with Leeds' music, as it never got released. Not a great endorsement for Leeds, it it? Not surprised, though. The music Leeds has written by himself, for example on the album Times Squared, is pretty bland. Is Leeds really taken seriously in the jazz world? Does he get many phone calls to write, record or perform?

Miles of couse did record AND release one song with Prince, Sticky Wicked for Chaka Khan, but that song was clearly written by Prince. Seems like Miles liked Prince more than he liked Leeds.

Since you don't know the story. I googled it if you are interested: http://www.thelastmiles.c...-leeds.php

Eric's interview is far different from the story you have told.

Efan said:

funksterr said:

Since you don't know the story. I googled it if you are interested: http://www.thelastmiles.c...-leeds.php

Eric's interview is far different from the story you have told.

I noticed that too. That's why I asked funksterr where he got the story. I didn't believe this well known interview could be his source.

Efan said:

funksterr said:

Since you don't know the story. I googled it if you are interested: http://www.thelastmiles.c...-leeds.php

Eric's interview is far different from the story you have told.

I guess the having Eric do songs for Miles thing comes from the second part of the interview, where Miles is wanting stuff in around 1990-91 and Prince isn't really interested anymore and tells Eric to do something for him instead. Eric's very clear that all the other stuff--the Madhouse material, the earlier Miles connected tracks, and even the basic tracks for Eric's own Times Squared either came from Prince and Eric just added sax, or were the product of jams led by Prince. But that's two tracks, one of which was apparently an Eric arrangement of "Nothing Compares 2 U" and an Eric-written thing called "Frame of Mind." Certainly not the tracks that gave Miles the idea Prince could write for him (coming only after earlier tracks and after a request) and not the ones that made anyone else think Prince has any jazz skills (Eric's position in the interview is that Prince and everybody else in the camp lacked a background in jazz harmonics--he says it several times--but they were good improvisers and that Prince, Wendy, Lisa, Sheila, and himself could go in and know that at the end of an hour of playing there would be something with musical worth.

Whether Miles did anything with the Eric tracks is unclear. "Can I Play With U" and "Sticky Wicked" (both of which Miles did add to) are clearly identified by Eric as Prince's, on which he just added his own horn. In fact, he doesn't even seem to care for "Can I Play With U."

They're nice articles and I'm glad to read them again. But they don't support the summary of things given by Funksterr. Nor do any of the other versions of the Prince/Eric/Miles story that I've seen in several Prince bios. If there's another source for Funksterr's claim, I'd be glad to read it.

EddieC said:

Efan said:

Eric's interview is far different from the story you have told.

I guess the having Eric do songs for Miles thing comes from the second part of the interview, where Miles is wanting stuff in around 1990-91 and Prince isn't really interested anymore and tells Eric to do something for him instead. Eric's very clear that all the other stuff--the Madhouse material, the earlier Miles connected tracks, and even the basic tracks for Eric's own Times Squared either came from Prince and Eric just added sax, or were the product of jams led by Prince. But that's two tracks, one of which was apparently an Eric arrangement of "Nothing Compares 2 U" and an Eric-written thing called "Frame of Mind." Certainly not the tracks that gave Miles the idea Prince could write for him (coming only after earlier tracks and after a request) and not the ones that made anyone else think Prince has any jazz skills (Eric's position in the interview is that Prince and everybody else in the camp lacked a background in jazz harmonics--he says it several times--but they were good improvisers and that Prince, Wendy, Lisa, Sheila, and himself could go in and know that at the end of an hour of playing there would be something with musical worth.

Whether Miles did anything with the Eric tracks is unclear. "Can I Play With U" and "Sticky Wicked" (both of which Miles did add to) are clearly identified by Eric as Prince's, on which he just added his own horn. In fact, he doesn't even seem to care for "Can I Play With U."

They're nice articles and I'm glad to read them again. But they don't support the summary of things given by Funksterr. Nor do any of the other versions of the Prince/Eric/Miles story that I've seen in several Prince bios. If there's another source for Funksterr's claim, I'd be glad to read it.

That interview is just one source. There are other versions of these events out there as well. I might have condensed the events somewhat out of sequence in my memory, but it seems to me the essential facts remain the same.

In my reading of the exact same article, I get the feeling that Eric is sort of saying "Don't judge me for that music. Prince forced the music to be that way. It's not really jazz and I know it." Eric is speaking as glowingly about Prince and his experiences as possible, but at the same time he is clearly informing us that Prince is no real jazz musician and that he knows his records with Prince aren't solid jazz material. He uses the phrase "jazz harmonics" as a polite way of acknowledging that Prince's jazz records are rather underwhelming to true jazz lovers. He is admitting that Prince doesn't know how to write jazz music, and the records that came out on Paisley Park were the best that Prince could muster, and while they are generaly entertaining, lack technical detail and fall far short in comparison to the albums of real jazz musicians. In this regard, Prince's jazz music is quite similar to his foray into hip-hop, in that he really doesn't understand it. The final results are recordings that leave any true afficianado of the art-form grossly unimpressed, if not insulted.

I'll say it again.... Eric's Miles Davis-inspired playing during the Sign O The Times era led many to believe that Prince had reached another level. In fact, Prince didn't really have a clue. Prince is still benefiting from Eric's contributions and I think it's ridiculous that Eric is not featured as part of Montreaux.

funksterr said:

EddieC said:

I guess the having Eric do songs for Miles thing comes from the second part of the interview, where Miles is wanting stuff in around 1990-91 and Prince isn't really interested anymore and tells Eric to do something for him instead. Eric's very clear that all the other stuff--the Madhouse material, the earlier Miles connected tracks, and even the basic tracks for Eric's own Times Squared either came from Prince and Eric just added sax, or were the product of jams led by Prince. But that's two tracks, one of which was apparently an Eric arrangement of "Nothing Compares 2 U" and an Eric-written thing called "Frame of Mind." Certainly not the tracks that gave Miles the idea Prince could write for him (coming only after earlier tracks and after a request) and not the ones that made anyone else think Prince has any jazz skills (Eric's position in the interview is that Prince and everybody else in the camp lacked a background in jazz harmonics--he says it several times--but they were good improvisers and that Prince, Wendy, Lisa, Sheila, and himself could go in and know that at the end of an hour of playing there would be something with musical worth.

Whether Miles did anything with the Eric tracks is unclear. "Can I Play With U" and "Sticky Wicked" (both of which Miles did add to) are clearly identified by Eric as Prince's, on which he just added his own horn. In fact, he doesn't even seem to care for "Can I Play With U."

They're nice articles and I'm glad to read them again. But they don't support the summary of things given by Funksterr. Nor do any of the other versions of the Prince/Eric/Miles story that I've seen in several Prince bios. If there's another source for Funksterr's claim, I'd be glad to read it.

That interview is just one source. There are other versions of these events out there as well. I might have condensed the events somewhat out of sequence in my memory, but it seems to me the essential facts remain the same.

In my reading of the exact same article, I get the feeling that Eric is sort of saying "Don't judge me for that music. Prince forced the music to be that way. It's not really jazz and I know it." Eric is speaking as glowingly about Prince and his experiences as possible, but at the same time he is clearly informing us that Prince is no real jazz musician and that he knows his records with Prince aren't solid jazz material. He uses the phrase "jazz harmonics" as a polite way of acknowledging that Prince's jazz records are rather underwhelming to true jazz lovers. He is admitting that Prince doesn't know how to write jazz music, and the records that came out on Paisley Park were the best that Prince could muster, and while they are generaly entertaining, lack technical detail and fall far short in comparison to the albums of real jazz musicians. In this regard, Prince's jazz music is quite similar to his foray into hip-hop, in that he really doesn't understand it. The final results are recordings that leave any true afficianado of the art-form grossly unimpressed, if not insulted.

I'll say it again.... Eric's Miles Davis-inspired playing during the Sign O The Times era led many to believe that Prince had reached another level. In fact, Prince didn't really have a clue. Prince is still benefiting from Eric's contributions and I think it's ridiculous that Eric is not featured as part of Montreaux.

Okay--yes, Eric says (here and elsewhere) that the music with Prince is Prince's and that it's not jazz. This is, perhaps, remarkably important to someone somewhere--but since it's also the position of almost everyone here who seems to give a dang about "jazz" it's not surprising. And I, at least, would never deny that Eric Leeds was an incredibly big part of Prince's music, and, yeah, without Eric it might not have attracted Miles' attention--but "The Last Miles" article also says that by that point Miles wasn't really Miles anymore either, and largely st--and Eric wasn't feeling Miles' work (or as far as I can tell, anything at all) after 1980 or so.

As to the general importance of Prince's "jazz" records. Don't call them jazz to begin with, and then judge them. I'm not saying that just for the "jazz" records, though. Real "funk" purists say Prince has never done funk (seriously, it comes up here every couple of months). He also can't play "rock," or "blues." I get what most of these people are saying--I understand (from reading their comments) what they think these genres are, and how they feel Prince fails to achieve whatever are the major goals of the genre in question. I don't know what the jazz-heads are talking about, because I have no idea what jazz is. There seems to be so much infighting (looking at it from the outside) among different subsets and groups, and so much questioning of each other's validity, that as someone who is admittedly ignorant, I don't even know where to start to find out what I don't know. Especially since it often feels like jazz is such an elitist group that you feel judged for not knowing what's what. Few things I've heard that are called "jazz" have interested me, but I might just be hearing bad stuff. I like quite a bit of the Prince instrumental work, so I'm not surprised that it's not jazz.

funksterr said:

That interview is just one source. There are other versions of these events out there as well. I might have condensed the events somewhat out of sequence in my memory, but it seems to me the essential facts remain the same.

In my reading of the exact same article, I get the feeling that Eric is sort of saying "Don't judge me for that music. Prince forced the music to be that way. It's not really jazz and I know it." Eric is speaking as glowingly about Prince and his experiences as possible, but at the same time he is clearly informing us that Prince is no real jazz musician and that he knows his records with Prince aren't solid jazz material. He uses the phrase "jazz harmonics" as a polite way of acknowledging that Prince's jazz records are rather underwhelming to true jazz lovers. He is admitting that Prince doesn't know how to write jazz music, and the records that came out on Paisley Park were the best that Prince could muster, and while they are generaly entertaining, lack technical detail and fall far short in comparison to the albums of real jazz musicians. In this regard, Prince's jazz music is quite similar to his foray into hip-hop, in that he really doesn't understand it. The final results are recordings that leave any true afficianado of the art-form grossly unimpressed, if not insulted.

I'll say it again.... Eric's Miles Davis-inspired playing during the Sign O The Times era led many to believe that Prince had reached another level. In fact, Prince didn't really have a clue. Prince is still benefiting from Eric's contributions and I think it's ridiculous that Eric is not featured as part of Montreaux.

You didn't "condensed the events". You made up new ones. Why can't you just admit that, rather than reffering to "other versions"?

Prince's jazz records are rather underwhelming to true jazz lovers? Probably. But what about Leeds' own standing in the jazz world? Is he well known and respect? Do the jazz greats want to collaborate with him? What has he done outside the Prince world?

And what do you mean by "Eric's Miles Davis-inspired playing"?

You think that Leeds' should be featured as part of Montreux. Are you sure he could handle the new arrangements? I'm not. They're not in the style he is comfortable with.

paulludvig said:

funksterr said:

That interview is just one source. There are other versions of these events out there as well. I might have condensed the events somewhat out of sequence in my memory, but it seems to me the essential facts remain the same.

In my reading of the exact same article, I get the feeling that Eric is sort of saying "Don't judge me for that music. Prince forced the music to be that way. It's not really jazz and I know it." Eric is speaking as glowingly about Prince and his experiences as possible, but at the same time he is clearly informing us that Prince is no real jazz musician and that he knows his records with Prince aren't solid jazz material. He uses the phrase "jazz harmonics" as a polite way of acknowledging that Prince's jazz records are rather underwhelming to true jazz lovers. He is admitting that Prince doesn't know how to write jazz music, and the records that came out on Paisley Park were the best that Prince could muster, and while they are generaly entertaining, lack technical detail and fall far short in comparison to the albums of real jazz musicians. In this regard, Prince's jazz music is quite similar to his foray into hip-hop, in that he really doesn't understand it. The final results are recordings that leave any true afficianado of the art-form grossly unimpressed, if not insulted.

I'll say it again.... Eric's Miles Davis-inspired playing during the Sign O The Times era led many to believe that Prince had reached another level. In fact, Prince didn't really have a clue. Prince is still benefiting from Eric's contributions and I think it's ridiculous that Eric is not featured as part of Montreaux.

You didn't "condensed the events". You made up new ones. Why can't you just admit that, rather than reffering to "other versions"?

Prince's jazz records are rather underwhelming to true jazz lovers? Probably. But what about Leeds' own standing in the jazz world? Is he well known and respect? Do the jazz greats want to collaborate with him? What has he done outside the Prince world?

And what do you mean by "Eric's Miles Davis-inspired playing"?

You think that Leeds' should be featured as part of Montreux. Are you sure he could handle the new arrangements? I'm not. They're not in the style he is comfortable with.

I don't know what you are talking about. Examples please. I didn't make up anything.

As for the comments about Eric. He is the blueprint for saxophone on Prince records. Period. I'm sure he can play his own parts. Assuming there are new arrangements and for some reason Eric was not comfortable with it, then you know what....scrap 'em. Eric deserves a spot because without him, Prince doesn't create the kind of music that would warrant an invite to Montreaux in the first place. Criticize Eric's solo career as much as you like, but it doesn't change the fact that Prince's jazz music reputation is actually based on Eric Leeds' input. Eric plays some Miles Davis riffs and, I think some covers too, as a part of the Sign O The Times era.

EddieC said:

funksterr said:

That interview is just one source. There are other versions of these events out there as well. I might have condensed the events somewhat out of sequence in my memory, but it seems to me the essential facts remain the same.

In my reading of the exact same article, I get the feeling that Eric is sort of saying "Don't judge me for that music. Prince forced the music to be that way. It's not really jazz and I know it." Eric is speaking as glowingly about Prince and his experiences as possible, but at the same time he is clearly informing us that Prince is no real jazz musician and that he knows his records with Prince aren't solid jazz material. He uses the phrase "jazz harmonics" as a polite way of acknowledging that Prince's jazz records are rather underwhelming to true jazz lovers. He is admitting that Prince doesn't know how to write jazz music, and the records that came out on Paisley Park were the best that Prince could muster, and while they are generaly entertaining, lack technical detail and fall far short in comparison to the albums of real jazz musicians. In this regard, Prince's jazz music is quite similar to his foray into hip-hop, in that he really doesn't understand it. The final results are recordings that leave any true afficianado of the art-form grossly unimpressed, if not insulted.

I'll say it again.... Eric's Miles Davis-inspired playing during the Sign O The Times era led many to believe that Prince had reached another level. In fact, Prince didn't really have a clue. Prince is still benefiting from Eric's contributions and I think it's ridiculous that Eric is not featured as part of Montreaux.

Okay--yes, Eric says (here and elsewhere) that the music with Prince is Prince's and that it's not jazz. This is, perhaps, remarkably important to someone somewhere--but since it's also the position of almost everyone here who seems to give a dang about "jazz" it's not surprising. And I, at least, would never deny that Eric Leeds was an incredibly big part of Prince's music, and, yeah, without Eric it might not have attracted Miles' attention--but "The Last Miles" article also says that by that point Miles wasn't really Miles anymore either, and largely st--and Eric wasn't feeling Miles' work (or as far as I can tell, anything at all) after 1980 or so.

As to the general importance of Prince's "jazz" records. Don't call them jazz to begin with, and then judge them. I'm not saying that just for the "jazz" records, though. Real "funk" purists say Prince has never done funk (seriously, it comes up here every couple of months). He also can't play "rock," or "blues." I get what most of these people are saying--I understand (from reading their comments) what they think these genres are, and how they feel Prince fails to achieve whatever are the major goals of the genre in question. I don't know what the jazz-heads are talking about, because I have no idea what jazz is. There seems to be so much infighting (looking at it from the outside) among different subsets and groups, and so much questioning of each other's validity, that as someone who is admittedly ignorant, I don't even know where to start to find out what I don't know. Especially since it often feels like jazz is such an elitist group that you feel judged for not knowing what's what. Few things I've heard that are called "jazz" have interested me, but I might just be hearing bad stuff. I like quite a bit of the Prince instrumental work, so I'm not surprised that it's not jazz.

Let me sum this up 4 u.................F*CK Jazz.

LovesexyIsThe1 said:

...Prince didn't like this kind of treatment from Warner Bros. back in the 90's, so why is it ok for him to treat his friends like this today? People seem to think Prince rose to the top all on his own... it takes a team of people to create the success Prince has generated. Now, he doesn't even want to thank that team of people... let alone acknowledge them with any kind of respect!

THIS...is brilliant, I love it! I was totally on your side here.

LovesexyIsThe1 said:

You would think that at age 55, such pettiness would be beneath him. I guess jehovah encourages this kind of behavior in the kindgom hall he attends. Makes me glad that I am 2 things: 1. Not his friend and 2. Not a jehovah's witness.

Maybe one day, when the fans are tired of his bullshit, he will realize that it was stupidity like this, that chased all the real fans away.

But then you had to follow it up with this wierd-assed crap. WTF? And you wonder why people were calling you out on it?

To then actually have the nerve to call other people "trolls" for calling you out on this inflamatory crap is beyond laughable - and as someone who was here long before you under a different profile name and who previously worked here for many years as a mod, i've seen it all, so spare me your butthurt response, I won't be looking for it. You know you framed that whole final salvo completely wrong and you should hold your hands up and say you fucked up, or at the very least admit you could have worded it better (that said, God only knows how you possibly could...) because the more you try and justify it, the sadder you look.

The fact that you called Prince out on his pettiness (and no, i'm not a fam, and i'm totally with you on that one) makes you look even more foolish considering your own spikey comment.

Don't even get me started on you, Sassey. That a whole other level of wrong right there.

...Chi'dren.

Didn't he play Old Friends 4 Sale right after Mutiny in Montreux?