for last years, his cd's have to be considered as a minor detail of his entire output, which is only modern. according to actual times, it is, against all odds, on the internet, not in the cd-shop, that he still keeps astonishing his carefull fans. the live version of "sticky like glue", his so-called rehearsal-jams, his guitarwork on "i go crazy", etc etc - almost every day, there are jewels to be discovered. just keep searching.

the leaking of songs like "lust u always" also must be considered as merits of today, not only of the past. even in the eighties prince released some of his songs many years after their composing.

the best way to consume prince today, is to listen to the extremely fabulous "the orange park radio", where there is no distinction made between past and present, live and studio or anything else. it is only now, at prince's older age, that his complete body of work is huge enough to sustain such a flourishing one-man-radio-station. no other musician whatsoever could possibly give food to such a widely varied radio, hours and hours each day.

vitalbacon said:

the leaking of songs like "lust u always" also must be considered as merits of today, not only of the past.

I don't see how, unless you consider When Doves Cry or Moonbeam Levels 2012 tracks.

The old addage about him being the best live performer, well I won't argue with that - people still cling to that, and that's all very nice - but it has no bearing on the critique of his studio output, if anything any positives you can say about his live output is a negative against his studio output - i.e. why can't you translate the good stuff you're doing live to new studio music?

NouveauDance said:

why can't you translate the good stuff you're doing live to new studio music?

Eh, stuff that sounds awesome live doesn't always sound so good in the studio. Sticky Like Glue is a good example. Live it sounds awesome but the version in 20ten just sounds stale and lifeless. Same goes for Push It Up from NewPower Soul... I absolutely hate the version of it in the album but when I heard it live on a NPSTour boot I have, I actually really liked what I heard. Then again, that might be because the audience was cheering during the song and all so it just felt more natural live... If that makes sense.

NouveauDance said:

vitalbacon said:

the leaking of songs like "lust u always" also must be considered as merits of today, not only of the past.

I don't see how, unless you consider When Doves Cry or Moonbeam Levels 2012 tracks.

The old addage about him being the best live performer, well I won't argue with that - people still cling to that, and that's all very nice - but it has no bearing on the critique of his studio output, if anything any positives you can say about his live output is a negative against his studio output - i.e. why can't you translate the good stuff you're doing live to new studio music?

I understand the idea. Judge/appreciate Prince's work as as you experience it for today, rather than some score keeping score year by year. This would be easier if things like "lust u always" had been an official release.

Example: I experienced most of the Crystal Ball tracks for the 1st time in 1997/98. So, I gave Prince props in 1998 for "The Dream Factory." Hell, it was new to me then. I didn't have it on bootleg and had no grounds to bitch about any alterations I had/had not heard. I enjoyed it as pristine and new song/experience, maybe moreso, than I would have on bootleg tape in the 80's.

However, Prince isn't releasing "lust U always" officially. He's not releasing anything lately. So, thank you Prince of 1982 for recording and (apparently) misplacing your copy of "lust u always." My enjoyment of it here in 2012 has been sweetly appreciated.

Lastly, presentation counts for a lot. Like or not, many people appreciate proper albums and good promotion/singles/artwork/live playings of. Funky or not, Prince's work sometimes is viewed as scraps or leftovers because he presents them as such. He sneaks their release with little fan fare and, often, only briefly touches on them in concert.

Can you imagine if "let's Go Crazy" was released as an after thought in 2012, instead of being the kickstarter to the entire Purple Rain experience? It kind of takes the luster out of much of that song.

[Edited 8/6/12 11:19am]

This afternoon, I listened to 8 (from Madhouse 8), Extra Loveable, and Electric Chair.

Spine.

Chills.

Downward movement.

Then I took out 20Ten because it had been a really long time since I listened to any of it. About three tracks through, I stopped and sent a mass email to a bunch of my Belgian friends to apologize for encouraging them all to rush out and buy the paper so they could get a free copy of that album.

vitalbacon said:

for last years, his cd's have to be considered as a minor detail of his entire output, which is only modern. according to actual times, it is, against all odds, on the internet, not in the cd-shop, that he still keeps astonishing his carefull fans. the live version of "sticky like glue", his so-called rehearsal-jams, his guitarwork on "i go crazy", etc etc - almost every day, there are jewels to be discovered. just keep searching.

the leaking of songs like "lust u always" also must be considered as merits of today, not only of the past. even in the eighties prince released some of his songs many years after their composing.

the best way to consume prince today, is to listen to the extremely fabulous "the orange park radio", where there is no distinction made between past and present, live and studio or anything else. it is only now, at prince's older age, that his complete body of work is huge enough to sustain such a flourishing one-man-radio-station. no other musician whatsoever could possibly give food to such a widely varied radio, hours and hours each day.

Not buying it. For someone to have NOT lost it, you have to consider if the present is in league or at least partial to the heralded past. Its not gestalt.

Having said that, I dont think he has lost it. I do think he has attempted to write music in a traditional manner since the 90's because it would make him more accessible and acknowledged as an artist. I think he feels his previous image in the early 80's held him back from being MJ status. I would agree with that. However its been wayyy too late for that. Even by Diamonds n Pearls. Elton was able to parlay his gifts to broadway and Disney soundtracks successfully, but by then Elton had put his crazy clothes away a decade or more previously. Prince was still wearing So Fine ass out pants while still attempting to become known as an ..american songwriter in status.

.

[Edited 8/6/12 12:25pm]

Oh, and people have been saying the "Prince has lost it" since 1985.

Nivivrus said:

NouveauDance said:

why can't you translate the good stuff you're doing live to new studio music?

Eh, stuff that sounds awesome live doesn't always sound so good in the studio. Sticky Like Glue is a good example. Live it sounds awesome but the version in 20ten just sounds stale and lifeless. Same goes for Push It Up from NewPower Soul... I absolutely hate the version of it in the album but when I heard it live on a NPSTour boot I have, I actually really liked what I heard. Then again, that might be because the audience was cheering during the song and all so it just felt more natural live... If that makes sense.

I see your point, but that wasn't mine.

I wasn't comparing studio/live versions of the same material - just comparing the energy and gusto that people still in enjoy in the live performances to the studio work in general, not live/studio versions of the same song.

Generally people still say "he's the best there is" live, but this feeling isn't transferred to the studio work. Comparing the same tracks live and studio is a good example though - how a track can sound great live, but flat in the studio - where is this energy being lost - the production, the one man band atmosphere of studio tracks? They're sterile.

NouveauDance said:

Nivivrus said:

Eh, stuff that sounds awesome live doesn't always sound so good in the studio. Sticky Like Glue is a good example. Live it sounds awesome but the version in 20ten just sounds stale and lifeless. Same goes for Push It Up from NewPower Soul... I absolutely hate the version of it in the album but when I heard it live on a NPSTour boot I have, I actually really liked what I heard. Then again, that might be because the audience was cheering during the song and all so it just felt more natural live... If that makes sense.

I see your point, but that wasn't mine.

I wasn't comparing studio/live versions of the same material - just comparing the energy and gusto that people still in enjoy in the live performances to the studio work in general, not live/studio versions of the same song.

Generally people still say "he's the best there is" live, but this feeling isn't transferred to the studio work. Comparing the same tracks live and studio is a good example though - how a track can sound great live, but flat in the studio - where is this energy being lost - the production, the one man band atmosphere of studio tracks? They're sterile.

I agree with NouveaDance. But sometimes the energy is still on the studio album (SHOE). But, I think it's the inconstancy of the energy on his recent output, especially on 20Ten which makes the album not as good as could be.

skywalker said:

NouveauDance said:

I don't see how, unless you consider When Doves Cry or Moonbeam Levels 2012 tracks.

The old addage about him being the best live performer, well I won't argue with that - people still cling to that, and that's all very nice - but it has no bearing on the critique of his studio output, if anything any positives you can say about his live output is a negative against his studio output - i.e. why can't you translate the good stuff you're doing live to new studio music?

I understand the idea. Judge/appreciate Prince's work as as you experience it for today, rather than some score keeping score year by year. This would be easier if things like "lust u always" had been an official release.

Example: I experienced most of the Crystal Ball tracks for the 1st time in 1997/98. So, I gave Prince props in 1998 for "The Dream Factory." Hell, it was new to me then. I didn't have it on bootleg and had no grounds to bitch about any alterations I had/had not heard. I enjoyed it as pristine and new song/experience, maybe moreso, than I would have on bootleg tape in the 80's.

However, Prince isn't releasing "lust U always" officially. He's not releasing anything lately. So, thank you Prince of 1982 for recording and (apparently) misplacing your copy of "lust u always." My enjoyment of it here in 2012 has been sweetly appreciated.

Lastly, presentation counts for a lot. Like or not, many people appreciate proper albums and good promotion/singles/artwork/live playings of. Funky or not, Prince's work sometimes is viewed as scraps or leftovers because he presents them as such. He sneaks their release with little fan fare and, often, only briefly touches on them in concert.

Can you imagine if "let's Go Crazy" was released as an after thought in 2012, instead of being the kickstarter to the entire Purple Rain experience? It kind of takes the luster out of much of that song.

[Edited 8/6/12 11:19am]

So much agreement from me! Total sense.

Funk in general is static to me.

NouveauDance said:

vitalbacon said:

the leaking of songs like "lust u always" also must be considered as merits of today, not only of the past.

I don't see how, unless you consider When Doves Cry or Moonbeam Levels 2012 tracks.

The old addage about him being the best live performer, well I won't argue with that - people still cling to that, and that's all very nice - but it has no bearing on the critique of his studio output, if anything any positives you can say about his live output is a negative against his studio output - i.e. why can't you translate the good stuff you're doing live to new studio music?

"i could never take the place" was written in 82, to be released in 86. "cannot stop this feeling" was written in 82, to be released in 90. "feel u up" was written in 81, to be releesed in 93. etc etc. when these songs came out, no one shrugged "oh but that's old school"...

MaddMaxx said:

This afternoon, I listened to 8 (from Madhouse 8), Extra Loveable, and Electric Chair.

Spine.

Chills.

Downward movement.

Then I took out 20Ten because it had been a really long time since I listened to any of it. About three tracks through, I stopped and sent a mass email to a bunch of my Belgian friends to apologize for encouraging them all to rush out and buy the paper so they could get a free copy of that album.

of course who wouldn't agree on that

vitalski said:

"i could never take the place" was written in 82, to be released in 86. "cannot stop this feeling" was written in 82, to be released in 90. "feel u up" was written in 81, to be releesed in 93. etc etc. when these songs came out, no one shrugged "oh but that's old school"...

These are completely different circumstances, is this not completely obvious?

Any track Prince pulls from the vault for official release is more often than not tweaked or worked on. None of those examples you gave were released officially without being completely reworked/recorded/overdubbed etc. Not to mention at the time of their release the number of people who knew about their original recording dates was far fewer than now, if any outside Prince's employees, associates and a handful of collectors, maybe.

vitalbacon was saying they considered "Lust U Always" as a credit to Prince now, in 2012 - when we know full well it was recorded 25+ years ago and it coming into the general hands of fans had absolutely nothing to do with Prince. You can credit the guy now and forever for once making a song you like, but you can't say it's creation and 'release' had anything to do with his action NOW because they didn't - I'm surprised this needs explaining to be honest.

His old stuff leaking now says most about the old times. Not about now.

What says most about now are his current CD's and what he plays live in concert.

If 89% or more is 20+ years old music that says enough.

who can prove these leakings on the internet have nothing to do with prince himself? i wouldn't be surprised if he secretely does it himself.

vitalski said:

who can prove these leakings on the internet have nothing to do with prince himself? i wouldn't be surprised if he secretely does it himself.

Oh Christ, not this again.

OK I get where this thread is coming from now - well, enjoy your fantasy.

Vitalbacon: I presume english isn't your first language - I don't really follow the point you're trying to make.

On the surface your thread eludes to shameless plugging of Orange Park Radio - if this is the case, fine.

I think all fans on the org can surely appreciate that the sum of Prince's work is studio and live, old and new.

Can you maybe seek to clarify your point?

NouveauDance said:

80spfantwp said:

Vitalbacon: I presume english isn't your first language - I don't really follow the point you're trying to make.

On the surface your thread eludes to shameless plugging of Orange Park Radio - if this is the case, fine.

I think all fans on the org can surely appreciate that the sum of Prince's work is studio and live, old and new.

Can you maybe seek to clarify your point?

indeed, my first language is dutch, not english or american.

i have nothing to do with the orange park radio, i just like it a lot.

i just wanted to say this: yes, prince's recent cd's aren't as thrilling as they used to be - but no, for that reason you cannot say he "has lost it". because if he really had, how come he still thrills me every day? i was looking for an answer to that.

and after that, i wondered if one could really prove that prince isn't, every now and then, personally responsible for leaking stuff on the internet - i didn't know that this is a worn out theme on the org. but okay, now i'm being told clearly.

i have a universitary degree and i have a job that requires great intelligence, yet whenever i have a conversation on the org, i'm baldly being reminded of the fact that i'm plain stupid. which is a healthy thing, it's just that should lower the frequency...

NouveauDance said:

vitalski said:

"i could never take the place" was written in 82, to be released in 86. "cannot stop this feeling" was written in 82, to be released in 90. "feel u up" was written in 81, to be releesed in 93. etc etc. when these songs came out, no one shrugged "oh but that's old school"...

These are completely different circumstances, is this not completely obvious?

Any track Prince pulls from the vault for official release is more often than not tweaked or worked on. None of those examples you gave were released officially without being completely reworked/recorded/overdubbed etc. Not to mention at the time of their release the number of people who knew about their original recording dates was far fewer than now, if any outside Prince's employees, associates and a handful of collectors, maybe.

vitalbacon was saying they considered "Lust U Always" as a credit to Prince now, in 2012 - when we know full well it was recorded 25+ years ago and it coming into the general hands of fans had absolutely nothing to do with Prince. You can credit the guy now and forever for once making a song you like, but you can't say it's creation and 'release' had anything to do with his action NOW because they didn't - I'm surprised this needs explaining to be honest.

Put it this way. People didn't bitch and moan about "feel u up" or "I could never take the place of your man" being retweaked for official release in the late 80's. Arguably, "feel u up" 1981 version is better than what he released officially.

However, some folks thought it was a travesty that Prince reworked "extralovable" for it's official release.

skywalker said:

Put it this way. People didn't bitch and moan about "feel u up" or "I could never take the place of your man" being retweaked for official release in the late 80's. Arguably, "feel u up" 1981 version is better than what he released officially.

However, some folks thought it was a travesty that Prince reworked "extralovable" for it's official release.

This wasn't even my point, nor was it the OP's as far as I could tell.

I dunno, it seems I'm not the only one raising an eyebrow at the miscommunication in this entire thread!

vitalski said:

and after that, i wondered if one could really prove that prince isn't, every now and then, personally responsible for leaking stuff on the internet - i didn't know that this is a worn out theme on the org. but okay, now i'm being told clearly.

It's not that it's worn out, but it has been addressed really well in the past, I suggest doing a search for better explanations than I could ever give as to WHY the idea that Prince is putting out unofficially released material is naive and incorrect.

I know it's an attractive fantasy that your favourite artist is circumventing the heinous evils of the record industry and putting his unreleased gems directly into the hands of fans, but it's actually not the case - and the burden of proof isn't really on anyone to prove this isn't so, since there is zero evidence to suggest it is happening - it's merely wishful thinking.

[Edited 8/7/12 9:58am]

Although it may be wishful thinking to think Prince doesn't give away music (musicology tour cd's anyone), turn me loose, Hot Summer, Purple and Gold. Prince has to know that if it's a song not available to purchase and he performs it live on tv or gives a copy to a radio station that his fans will record it. So, I think, yes sometimes he does. Or what's the point of releasing the material?

(Discuss)

kewlschool said:

Although it may be wishful thinking to think Prince doesn't give away music (musicology tour cd's anyone), turn me loose, Hot Summer, Purple and Gold. Prince has to know that if it's a song not available to purchase and he performs it live on tv or gives a copy to a radio station that his fans will record it. So, I think, yes sometimes he does. Or what's the point of releasing the material?

(Discuss)

Giving away music, previewing material live or through official streams, social media or broadcast is completely different to putting lower quality decades old unreleased material 'out there'.

At the end of the day, people who believe Prince is sitting at Paisley Park uploading unreleased stuff to youtube and rapidshare for them to find are gonna believe that no matter what, ignorance is bliss.

I'm tired of hearing the same speculation over and over that Prince is himself responsible for putting out the recent spate of bootleg material.

There are several reasons why it's not very likely to be the case:

1) Tracks such as 'Lust U Always' are simpy incongruent with his religious beliefs. If he were to release tracks such as this he would likely rework them (there are several examples of this being the case)

2) Often times releases are from established bootleg labels and the sources for given tracks are known but, for obvious reasons, are repectfully kept anonymous

3) The quality inconsistencies on many releases are indicative of several sources being used for any given collection - not a Prince trait

I'm no bootleg expert but some fans on the org are - countless historical information has been documented detailing how a bootleg collection has surfaced. None tell of Prince having any involvement regarding their release

Yes, prince has showcased certain tracks (some have been mentioned) - but all have been current recordings and not collections from decades ago.

MaddMaxx said:

This afternoon, I listened to 8 (from Madhouse 8), Extra Loveable, and Electric Chair.

Spine.

Chills.

Downward movement.

Then I took out 20Ten because it had been a really long time since I listened to any of it. About three tracks through, I stopped and sent a mass email to a bunch of my Belgian friends to apologize for encouraging them all to rush out and buy the paper so they could get a free copy of that album.

..poor belgium friends...

skywalker said:

NouveauDance said:

These are completely different circumstances, is this not completely obvious?

Any track Prince pulls from the vault for official release is more often than not tweaked or worked on. None of those examples you gave were released officially without being completely reworked/recorded/overdubbed etc. Not to mention at the time of their release the number of people who knew about their original recording dates was far fewer than now, if any outside Prince's employees, associates and a handful of collectors, maybe.

vitalbacon was saying they considered "Lust U Always" as a credit to Prince now, in 2012 - when we know full well it was recorded 25+ years ago and it coming into the general hands of fans had absolutely nothing to do with Prince. You can credit the guy now and forever for once making a song you like, but you can't say it's creation and 'release' had anything to do with his action NOW because they didn't - I'm surprised this needs explaining to be honest.

Put it this way. People didn't bitch and moan about "feel u up" or "I could never take the place of your man" being retweaked for official release in the late 80's. Arguably, "feel u up" 1981 version is better than what he released officially.

However, some folks thought it was a travesty that Prince reworked "extralovable" for it's official release.

never heard the 81 feel u up version..but i can't believe its better then the long stroke...i mean..it's got eric....

101 said:

skywalker said:

Put it this way. People didn't bitch and moan about "feel u up" or "I could never take the place of your man" being retweaked for official release in the late 80's. Arguably, "feel u up" 1981 version is better than what he released officially.

However, some folks thought it was a travesty that Prince reworked "extralovable" for it's official release.

never heard the 81 feel u up version..but i can't believe its better then the long stroke...i mean..it's got eric....

Find it. Not sure if it's better. Just more crazy and raw.

skywalker said:

NouveauDance said:

I don't see how, unless you consider When Doves Cry or Moonbeam Levels 2012 tracks.

The old addage about him being the best live performer, well I won't argue with that - people still cling to that, and that's all very nice - but it has no bearing on the critique of his studio output, if anything any positives you can say about his live output is a negative against his studio output - i.e. why can't you translate the good stuff you're doing live to new studio music?

I understand the idea. Judge/appreciate Prince's work as as you experience it for today, rather than some score keeping score year by year. This would be easier if things like "lust u always" had been an official release.

Example: I experienced most of the Crystal Ball tracks for the 1st time in 1997/98. So, I gave Prince props in 1998 for "The Dream Factory." Hell, it was new to me then. I didn't have it on bootleg and had no grounds to bitch about any alterations I had/had not heard. I enjoyed it as pristine and new song/experience, maybe moreso, than I would have on bootleg tape in the 80's.

However, Prince isn't releasing "lust U always" officially. He's not releasing anything lately. So, thank you Prince of 1982 for recording and (apparently) misplacing your copy of "lust u always." My enjoyment of it here in 2012 has been sweetly appreciated.

Lastly, presentation counts for a lot. Like or not, many people appreciate proper albums and good promotion/singles/artwork/live playings of. Funky or not, Prince's work sometimes is viewed as scraps or leftovers because he presents them as such. He sneaks their release with little fan fare and, often, only briefly touches on them in concert.

Can you imagine if "let's Go Crazy" was released as an after thought in 2012, instead of being the kickstarter to the entire Purple Rain experience? It kind of takes the luster out of much of that song.

[Edited 8/6/12 11:19am]

Agree with skywalker, as a fan who came "on board" after the '80s. Especially the last point about "presentation." Strange how Prince doesn't release, throws away or gives away songs that for many artists would be a treasure. Contrary to what people here say, it doesn't seem his utmost concern is for making the most money or being most popular.

But also agree with nouveau's point bolded. I don't get why some of his studio recordings are worse than his live performances, sometimes even of the same song. He should be able to translate the magic in the studio every time.

vitalski said:

80spfantwp said:

Vitalbacon: I presume english isn't your first language - I don't really follow the point you're trying to make.

On the surface your thread eludes to shameless plugging of Orange Park Radio - if this is the case, fine.

I think all fans on the org can surely appreciate that the sum of Prince's work is studio and live, old and new.

Can you maybe seek to clarify your point?

indeed, my first language is dutch, not english or american.

i have nothing to do with the orange park radio, i just like it a lot.

i just wanted to say this: yes, prince's recent cd's aren't as thrilling as they used to be - but no, for that reason you cannot say he "has lost it". because if he really had, how come he still thrills me every day? i was looking for an answer to that.

and after that, i wondered if one could really prove that prince isn't, every now and then, personally responsible for leaking stuff on the internet - i didn't know that this is a worn out theme on the org. but okay, now i'm being told clearly.

i have a universitary degree and i have a job that requires great intelligence, yet whenever i have a conversation on the org, i'm baldly being reminded of the fact that i'm plain stupid. which is a healthy thing, it's just that should lower the frequency...

Sometimes I listen to mpls radio, especially if I'm browsing the org. I agree, I like it because it randomly mixes up the songs from different eras and includes live performances, and I don't notice that there's a dip in quality/enjoyability as the songs get more recent. It's pretty consistent, with some songs here and there that I don't care for from every era.

Totally sympathize with you about the strange parallel universe of the org, LOL - in one universe, you are a respected professional, known for your intelligence, reasoning, and discernment; in the other, you are stupid "newbie" who should "sit down." Ahh, it's all part of the faceless internet experience.