I believe the master-musician relationship between Warner Bros and Prince was pivotal in helping select his output and therefore maximise his sales. Prince clearly benefitted from this level of control in terms of commercial success. Perhaps, as fams, we benefitted the most with carefully defined albums and well executed promotion. I know there are often told accounts of when Prince took issue with this level of management. However, I don't believe what resulted in Prince's eventual struggle for freedom is as black and white as just an artistic rights issue or Prince wanting to own his masters back.


I expect this is a very complicated history with plenty of 'untold' tales. What I want to know are your stories of what happened over the years, how this may have accounted for the feelings Warners/Prince harboured and eventually manifested in the souring of their relationship. I suspect there will be some interesting revelations, so let's discuss.

I got to jump all over this one.

First of all let me say that I totally agree with your observations. Neither Prince nor WB got screwed in the deal. Prince did benefit from the marketing of the WB. Record sales prove that. I acknowledge that the music world has changed but there is just no way that some of the artist out there should out sale Prince. I would insult Prince by comparing him to some commercial artist out there who is just like McDonald's; (on every other corner trying to sell you something and trick you into believing that is actually good). But should artist like Musiq outsell Prince? With that positive point give to WB let us look at the flip side. Not withstanding the issue of ownership of the masters, WB did put the artistic handcuffs on Prince and unnecessarily also. For example look at the 'Sign of the Times', which was a trimmed down version of the intended 'Crystal Ball' album. Crystal Ball would have been beautiful. 'Adore' wasn't as meaningful to me until I heard 'Crucial'. When the world crucial is used in the song it has a deeper meaning that the other lyrics if the song 'Crucial' was included in the album. Also 'Hot Thang' becomes more that just a funky dance song if the Crystal Ball is included in the album. What does the line "Tell'em you're going to the Crystal Ball" mean to someone who has heard the song Crystal Ball? The song 'Sign of the Times' went hand in hand with Crystal Ball. Sign of the Times was a commentary on the problems and despair of the day and 'Crystal Ball was the inner struggle of the artist to have love, faith, and hope in the midst of those contemporary concerns. And please don't anyone even mention 'The Black Album'. And to add insult to injury 'Sign of the Times' lost the Grammy to a U2 album. I mean put yourself in Prince's shoes. How would you like it if you were submitting an artistic into an international competition only to have a third of your work cut out by someone trying to make the maximum amount of money off you and come in second in the competition. Well now you know how Prince felt. Taking all that in consideration I the think WB marriage lasted just as long as it was beneficial for both of them. Prince would benefit again from the attention of a strong marketing program but marketing today isn't like was in 1980's. Why pay to promote an artist who demands to get paid fairly when big record companies can get a cute bum with no talent off the street and get bigger profit margin with less stress

Anji said:

No.

Supernova said:

Anji said:

Ummm. Maybe later if I have more energy.

Did Prince screw Warner Bros?

No

Prince screwed himself (at the expense of fams)

ANJI, one factor to consider is Mo Ostin's departure from WB Records. According to many artists, Prince included, Mo was one of the last few music execs who was artist friendly and would prioritize artistic interests even if they didn't initially seem to be the most profitable.

NuPwrSoul said:

Of course, I was waiting for someone to chime in with the Mo factor. Prince's relationship with Mo was pivotal to his artistic vision being accepted at Warners. What happened to Mo and why did their relationship suffer towards the end?

Anji said:

didnt mo ostin go to work at dreamworks music with david geffen

i heard prince saying how much he missed mo ostin wonder why he didnt sign with dreamworks rather than EMI or later ARISTA was it down to good old money?

Maybe when Mo Ostin departed he realized that the music business was supposed to undergo dramatic changes in the years to come. Maybe he felt that it would be the right time to start taking control of the art and business himself. He had reached a level where he was a "star" already, and one could have thought that the albums didn't need a huge marketing machinery behind, but only a little promotion. If one thing is sure, he has often had a good feeling for the future, even if he sometimes took the wrong decision then (e.g. he started all the Internet interaction with the fams as one of the 1st). From the point of view of an artist the decision was right, because if you have control of what will be released you control the art itself. If you look for the business side, that's a different story...

i now bugger all on the topic that newer P fans dont already...

but its a great topic
something intelligent being discussed in this site 4 a good change

WB dumped a considerable amount of money on Prince in the early 90s in good faith that he would come up with something amazing.

His music failed to grab the attention and interest of people, and as part of the agreement WB withdrew once it became clear it was a bad investment.

If you wanna play like an idie musician then expect an indie musician's paycheck.

To all the artists on here, wouldn't it be nice if you could do whatever you wanted and some big company just kept throwing millions of dollars at you? It doesn't happen in the real world.

NPGMCsucks said:

The 90s Prince delivered Diamonds & Pearls & Symbol. Those weren't indie records. Then came the Hits/B-sides and problems were certainly occuring during this period as they were somewhat highlighted in the liner notes of that package by Alan Leeds. For example, the name change was already with us. So what happened?

joecoco said:

This is a common conclusion. Prince made the right decision from an artistic perspective but one that hasn't generally worked out best from a fam or commercial point of view. It's understandable those factors aren't necessarily his priorities. Hence, lower sales, higher prices.

jubalH said:

I don't know.
[This message was edited Tue Feb 18 11:42:18 PST 2003 by Anji]

dnaplaya said:

At least when Prince was with Warner, you knew when a new Prince album was on the way! You got hyped because while listening to the radio, suddenly a brand-new fresh Prince single would debut!

You would pop into the record store on the day-of-release and buy the new Prince album, while noticing the "Lovesexy"/"Grafitti Bridge"/"Hits & B-sides" or whatever relevant posters on the back wall. You could then go home and watch the Warner-funded latest Prince video on MTV. You could go back to the record store because you knew that since "Anotherloverholeinyouhead" was the latest single, there would be a "Extended Version" out too!...

...it was an EVENT.

Do these days exist anymore?

NO.


I think Warners promoted Prince the best they could. The rest was up to Prince. How do you promote an artist who puts out product YEARLY and promote it as something special?After awhile, the music/musician has got to make people WANT to buy the music! All Warners could do is make the albums/posters/ad's/singles/12"ers/videos.

They put a lot of trust and $$$ on the line by giving Prince the power to choose the singles.

Why was "Theives in the Temple" the lead-off single, and not the rocking, radio friendly "Can't Stop This Feeling I Got"? Or why was "If I was your Girlfriend"/"I Wish U Heaven"/"Damn U" singles? Good-to-great album tracks to be sure, but singles? That was Prince.

I think that Warners wasn't necessarily wrong to want to put a leash on Prince after the infamous $100 mil contract! Take your time, make a worthwhile album, something worth the money and promotion! Instead Prince went into product overdrive and became a parody of himself, a "product", and a follower to what was the hip sound at the time (e.g.-adding a rapper) instead of staying true to his own "Sound".
His last honest Prince album was "Lovesexy" to my mind.


Only now, does he seem to be returning to "honest Prince music" with "Rainbow Children" and "One Nite Alone Live". One could argue it began with "Emancipation", and "The Truth" as well.

To me, "Diamonds and Pearls", Symbol", feel like plastic product, the "Hits/B-Sides" onward like label obligations. Yeah, I think Warner got screwed. Why do they/ WE (!!!)have "Chaos and Disorder" in out "completist" collections instead of, say, "Roadhouse Garden"? Because, plain and simple, Prince held back, and yes kind of screwed us all, but even moreso, his career.

pimpytheclown said:

I agree with alot of what you say, Pimpy. Warners may have given Prince a £100 million dollor contract but that probably made Prince the 'product' he turned into, as you put it. Of course, it was Prince's choices to present the early 90's NPG sound but that's what he thought would sell. And he was right. Can you really blame him? Well, I guess you can, but it makes sense to me. He was under pressure to prove himself as a commercial force, an artist who can still be pivotal in the musical landscape. I remember someone saying here, that this was around the time Prince was turning into a 'nasty piece of work.'

I suspect tensions arose when Prince didn't want to continue with the Diamonds & Pearls / Symbol sound, and Warners didn't think the likes of Peach, Pope, Pink Cashmere and the Ulysees/Come songs were marketable projects. This might be an example of where Prince started developing that rhetoric that money and art don't mix.
[This message was edited Tue Feb 18 13:06:16 PST 2003 by Anji]

This is an interesting perspective. Giotto said on 02/13/03 at 9:31am with regards the Graffiti

Bridge era:

NPGMCsucks said:

Amen! If u commit 2 the money, u commit 2 the game.

I think Prince had the Right Mangers back in the day that along with Himself had a clear Outline&also Mo Ostin&others truly believed in His Work.The Cat had Creative Control&was allowed to Run Paisley Park Records for Almost a Decade without any Hit Material really Beyond Prince.now that was Prince Pimping Da Man.92 was a trip He signed that Big Ole Contract&also had 2 Million Spent on Carmen Electria now if that ain't getting over than I don't know what is?Prince got tired of it after a while because from Batman-the Hits&B-sides Box Set Prince was so Accessible it wasn't even Funny with the Material He was doing.I remember reading in Entertainment Weekly back in 91 Mo Ostin saying He couldn't understand why Prince wasn't
selling More Albums?? He wondered out loud.as if going Platinum was so Bad Yearly for a While? but Prince is one of those Artists during His Commerical Peak where Expectations were So High.you gotta Pay up one way or the Other.

prince's early ninety's work was great. diamonds and pearls,gold,symbol. then when he got too weird, writing slave on his face, playing with red vale on his face. I doubt if he will ever recover from that. most music buyers
respect prince but they wont buy him. addding to that music has changed. everything is hip hop and country now. that is what is selling. dixie chicks, shania twain to jay-z and misssy elliott. there isnt much of a market if you ar not going to allow either of these influences into your music. prince has experimented with rap but it is rap thru princes eyes which sounds comical. the only way he will ever be mainstream in todays market is to get off of his ego and seriously collaborate. get with a dr.dre who actually respects the funk or some of the other relevent producers of today. I hate to see prince going down without a fight. his whole legacy is being mocked everyday and him and his ego are letting it go. that is upsetting. i hate to see these chumps outsell prince too, but he is not making music that people want to hear. he should come out fighting on his next release.

funkycomic said:

Very well said. But he wouldn't even have stoop down to the level of Dr Dre. Why won't he just work with Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis again? Look what they have done with Janet Jackson someone who has less talent in her whole body than Prince has in his pinky finger. There is a market for pure funk out there that hasn't been even touched in the past 5 years. I would like to see him work wit Saadiq (however you spell his name the guy from Tony Toni Tone). It is past time for some artist to take their lyrics to the next level. We just had a number one song that was about particular kind of Nike tennis shoe come on.

funkycomic said:

After many years of being on the inside of that industry game, it has taken Prince quite some time to adjust to what life on the outside actually means. The Gold Experience, Emancipation and Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic all represent an artist at odds with what he wants, struggling and trying to let go of the game but finding himself unable to, relapsing time and time again for acceptance. That's understable, I imagine it's almost like a sick addiction; to be considered the best in the musical landscape through commercial and critical acclaim.

I honestly feel The Rainbow Children and what it represented to him at that time, was his salvation in much the same way as Lovesexy was. This time, more defined. The man wanted answers. Afterall, where was Prince going to go if his music was no longer considered cutting edge? Music was/is his life. The ironic thing is that by saying whatever the fuck was on his mind, as was the case with The Rainbow Children, and truly letting go of that acceptance, Prince once again received acclaim as a true artist. It's an interesting paradox and one I hope he has a better understanding of than when he left Warners.

"This is a bidness ... you ain't to fall gone to see that"

First off let me say that what happened to Prince in 1993-1995 was a fuck up of both parties.Prince fucked himself on a power play called The Most Beautiful Girl in the World & WB fucked up on the power play called THE GOLD EXPERENCE.

Prince went too far when he released the record on the Bellmark label.He burned bridges that even he didnt see at that time.The song was a huge hit(by 90's standards) & set the stage for what could have been a comeback album by Prince.WB wasnt going for it and would not release the album by Prince's terms so he kept it in the can.

Mo Ostin was gone and Prince's power at WB was shot.So Prince was left to release a 7 year old Black album, which everyone & their momma had on bootlegs.When GOLD came out in November 95,damn near everone had this on a bootleg.The album was old and Warners didnt promote the album.

The last 7 years of Prince's career is a non story because of the GOLD debacle.

Now let me say this ...Prince has made valid points concerning the music industry.The industry as a result will NEVER allow him to ever regain a position it it again !

I think for fans to come to web sites and slam Prince's 1992-2003 music really do not understand the nature of this beast. Any album,including the New Power Soul album, could have been hit material if promoted correctly !

The bullshit that Prince has released in that time period was better than 90% of the stuff that has won Grammys

Oh by the way Warner Brother's Records is not doing as well as Prince these days.So both parties lost !!!

muleFunk said:

Why would Warners not want to promote The Gold Experience following the success of The Most Beautiful Girl In The World? That doesn't make sense to me.
[This message was edited Tue Feb 18 19:49:11 PST 2003 by Anji]

Anji said:

Cut there Loses&They Knew that Prince would Get the Master on this.also with Him Saying what He saying about Warners&also Him trying to get out of the Deal wouldn't look Right for them to Promote His Album.just like MJ with "Invincible" Sony wasn't gonna Promote it knowing that He Owned the Rights To It&was Walking so the Company will do Enough Window Dressing with a Video&Some Promotion but they are only gonna go so far.it's also Easier to Cut your Loses&stay Corperate with it.

Anji said:

Other people have already said what I would have, but I have to say that no single recording artist can really screw a corporate entity like Warner Brothers over.

Supernova said:

Supernova said:

That question was not really the question I wanted answering; it was merely constructed to attract an audience and stimulate debate regarding the real issue: what were the causes for Prince's relationship to end with Warners? I was looking for different perspectives. But then, I think you already knew that.

mistermaxxx said:

I think we need to take a few steps back. I understand the eventual breakdown, that is well documented. But what caused it? Why did Prince choose to release The Most Beautiful Girl independently? Was he forced to? Did Warners not want to release it themselves? Something was happening during that time, and I dare say before; I want to know what your views are. Anybody?