treehouse said:

Militant said:

Numan was definitely a big influence on Prince. As Joe says, I doubt there are very many artists from that time period using synths that weren't influenced by what Gary was doing.

Hard to say. We take for granted that we can watch British TV appearances and find Tubeway Army records everywhere. Gary Numan had MTV exposure, but that was later. Gary Numan had a lot of contemporaries (Human League, OMD, Throbbin Gristle, etc.) who were just as likely to have been an influence on synth groups.

Oh, and let's not forget Klaus Nomi for the style.

But the likes of Human League and OMD didn't make any type of mark on the industry until 1981. Gary had already been to number one by 1979.

He was way ahead of all of them. And he was doing his stuff when Prince was formulating Dirty Mind and Controversy.

SquirrelMeat said:

treehouse said:

Hard to say. We take for granted that we can watch British TV appearances and find Tubeway Army records everywhere. Gary Numan had MTV exposure, but that was later. Gary Numan had a lot of contemporaries (Human League, OMD, Throbbin Gristle, etc.) who were just as likely to have been an influence on synth groups.

Oh, and let's not forget Klaus Nomi for the style.

But the likes of Human League and OMD didn't make any type of mark on the industry until 1981. Gary had already been to number one by 1979.

He was way ahead of all of them. And he was doing his stuff when Prince was formulating Dirty Mind and Controversy.

Interesting and true

SquirrelMeat said:

But the likes of Human League and OMD didn't make any type of mark on the industry until 1981. Gary had already been to number one by 1979.

He was way ahead of all of them. And he was doing his stuff when Prince was formulating Dirty Mind and Controversy.

Partly true. OMD's "Electricity" and Human League's "Being Boiled" were out by 1978. Numan was certainly a bigger name, but I'm pretty sure he didn't chart or tour the US until 1980.

Take a look at what charted in 1979:

ELO, Michael Jackson, Village People, Bee Gees, Blondie, Donna Summers.

Charting in 1980:

Pink Floyd, Lipps. Inc., Shalamar, Donna Summers, Blondie, Michael Jackson....and Prince.

Gary Numan was an influence, but he's not a pioneer.

treehouse said:

SquirrelMeat said:

But the likes of Human League and OMD didn't make any type of mark on the industry until 1981. Gary had already been to number one by 1979.

He was way ahead of all of them. And he was doing his stuff when Prince was formulating Dirty Mind and Controversy.

Partly true. OMD's "Electricity" and Human League's "Being Boiled" were out by 1978. Numan was certainly a bigger name, but I'm pretty sure he didn't chart or tour the US until 1980.

Take a look at what charted in 1979:

ELO, Michael Jackson, Village People, Bee Gees, Blondie, Donna Summers.

Charting in 1980:

Pink Floyd, Lipps. Inc., Shalamar, Donna Summers, Blondie, Michael Jackson....and Prince.

Gary Numan was an influence, but he's not a pioneer.

Were their albums mentioned as influential as Numan's Pleasure Principle?

treehouse said:

SquirrelMeat said:

But the likes of Human League and OMD didn't make any type of mark on the industry until 1981. Gary had already been to number one by 1979.

He was way ahead of all of them. And he was doing his stuff when Prince was formulating Dirty Mind and Controversy.

Partly true. OMD's "Electricity" and Human League's "Being Boiled" were out by 1978. Numan was certainly a bigger name, but I'm pretty sure he didn't chart or tour the US until 1980.

Take a look at what charted in 1979:

ELO, Michael Jackson, Village People, Bee Gees, Blondie, Donna Summers.

Charting in 1980:

Pink Floyd, Lipps. Inc., Shalamar, Donna Summers, Blondie, Michael Jackson....and Prince.

Gary Numan was an influence, but he's not a pioneer.

well as far as my musical knowledge goes...(and you can correct me here if i am wrong ) kraftwerk have to be seen as the main starting point for the electronic new wave sound or whatever you want to call it...bowie developed it with his berlin albums and gary numan took it to the top of the charts in 1979...which is when prince would have heard it...leading to dirty mind..controversy and 1999....you can hear it all over 'automatic'...

.

gary numan wasnt the pioneer in my eyes but he did play his part and prince gives him major props for it...

.

Timmy84 said:

Were their albums mentioned as influential as Numan's Pleasure Principle?

By Prince? Not that I'm aware of.

By others? Without a doubt.

...and electronics were all over the charts by 1979-80.

it's so obvious that Prince is directly influenced by Gary Numan when it comes to both his visual style and his use og synth and electronic drums. The way the electroic clap is mixed with the snare in Cars is so similar to what Prince would do in the 80s. And the outfit is like Prince scandalous outfit, while his make up and attitude is something prince would have on the video of a stripping Prince on Sexuality. The difference is that Gary seems a bit shy behind the make up sometimes, while Prince, no matter how shy he was in person, never showed it while performing.The attitude is very similar.

treehouse said:

Timmy84 said:

Were their albums mentioned as influential as Numan's Pleasure Principle?

By Prince? Not that I'm aware of.

By others? Without a doubt.

...and electronics were all over the charts by 1979-80.

Yeah that's what I was asking. Prince never probably heard of them lol I'm guessing someone close to him was a big fan of Numan and that's how Prince got to hear it. Who knows? I wonder if he listened to Kraftwerk during that same time.

Andre Cymone was hardcore on the New Wave movement, I guess he had something to do with Prince appreciation Kraftwerk. Just listen to his first album, I heard rumours he was already working on it a while before he was disbanded. He also is said to have something to do with the concept of The Time etc... I'm very curious to how much Dez Dickerson and Andre Cymone was important to his new wave and rock sound in the beginning of the 80s

Timmy84 said:

Yeah that's what I was asking. Prince never probably heard of them lol I'm guessing someone close to him was a big fan of Numan and that's how Prince got to hear it. Who knows? I wonder if he listened to Kraftwerk during that same time.

Well, a lot of the seminal new wave-electronic records were hard to get a hold of. You might buy a record because it was the only piece of vinyl in the import section that looked New Wave, back in those days. As someone mentioned, Minneapolis was a pretty good city for finding underground music though.

An example I mentioned on the org before is Suicide ...who predate Kraftwerk's Autobahn era (even though they didn't get a record out until much later). Suicide are obscure even today, but they influenced everyone. It's music that other musicians sought out and copied/covered. http://en.wikipedia.org/w...ide_(band)

njin said:

Andre Cymone was hardcore on the New Wave movement, I guess he had something to do with Prince appreciation Kraftwerk. Just listen to his first album, I heard rumours he was already working on it a while before he was disbanded. He also is said to have something to do with the concept of The Time etc... I'm very curious to how much Dez Dickerson and Andre Cymone was important to his new wave and rock sound in the beginning of the 80s

I think Andre and Dez were known rock heads more than Prince. I guess when Prince heard it enough he probably decided to bring that sound into his music. Up until then, Prince's music was mainly R&B and soul with funk and some rock elements.

Timmy84 said:

njin said:

Andre Cymone was hardcore on the New Wave movement, I guess he had something to do with Prince appreciation Kraftwerk. Just listen to his first album, I heard rumours he was already working on it a while before he was disbanded. He also is said to have something to do with the concept of The Time etc... I'm very curious to how much Dez Dickerson and Andre Cymone was important to his new wave and rock sound in the beginning of the 80s

I think Andre and Dez were known rock heads more than Prince. I guess when Prince heard it enough he probably decided to bring that sound into his music. Up until then, Prince's music was mainly R&B and soul with funk and some rock elements.

Cymone wanted to distance himself from Prince musically and decided to embrace the futuristic electronics of new wave. Cymone signed with Columbia Records (who had initially turned down Prince) and was able to convince Columbia to give him the same creative freedoms that Prince had obtained from Warner Bros. Cymone’s first self-produced and -performed album came out in early 1982, entitled ‘Livin In The New Wave’...

“André wanted the new wave electric sound so everybody had Oberheim keyboards and he purchased two Simmons drum sets for me. I had pads all around me. I remember beating them so hard, my hands would bleed. I kept destroying those drums, left and right, breaking everything. One day André said, “Damn bro’, you’re destroying everything, you’re costing me a fortune. I have to come up with a name for you”. He did… he was the person to name me Bam Bam. I love that name." - John "Bam Bam" Morgan, the drummer in Andre Cymone's band.

Taken from this link:http://citinite.wordpress.com/2008/03/24/andre-cymone/

treehouse said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah that's what I was asking. Prince never probably heard of them lol I'm guessing someone close to him was a big fan of Numan and that's how Prince got to hear it. Who knows? I wonder if he listened to Kraftwerk during that same time.

Well, a lot of the seminal new wave-electronic records were hard to get a hold of. You might buy a record because it was the only piece of vinyl in the import section that looked New Wave, back in those days. As someone mentioned, Minneapolis was a pretty good city for finding underground music though.

An example I mentioned on the org before is Suicide ...who predate Kraftwerk's Autobahn era (even though they didn't get a record out until much later). Suicide are obscure even today, but they influenced everyone. It's music that other musicians sought out and copied/covered. http://en.wikipedia.org/w...ide_(band)

damn, I can really see that. That was great. Suicide really had something.

njin said:

it's so obvious that Prince is directly influenced by Gary Numan when it comes to both his visual style and his use og synth and electronic drums. The way the electroic clap is mixed with the snare in Cars is so similar to what Prince would do in the 80s. And the outfit is like Prince scandalous outfit, while his make up and attitude is something prince would have on the video of a stripping Prince on Sexuality. The difference is that Gary seems a bit shy behind the make up sometimes, while Prince, no matter how shy he was in person, never showed it while performing.The attitude is very similar.

The similarities & influences are so obvious!

Gary Numan- We are so Fragile

http://youtu.be/-id7ewN8fYQ

Prince-Controversy

http://youtu.be/ISZacjyerqc

[Edited 6/19/11 2:48am]

njin said:

it's so obvious that Prince is directly influenced by Gary Numan when it comes to both his visual style and his use og synth and electronic drums. The way the electroic clap is mixed with the snare in Cars is so similar to what Prince would do in the 80s. And the outfit is like Prince scandalous outfit, while his make up and attitude is something prince would have on the video of a stripping Prince on Sexuality. The difference is that Gary seems a bit shy behind the make up sometimes, while Prince, no matter how shy he was in person, never showed it while performing.The attitude is very similar.

i don't mind sharing that i had a few encounters with gary numan back in about 84, it's true he was as shy as a mouse & very geeky bloke, very sweet tho. he never mentioned prince

i used to bunk off school with friends, & hide out at a little airport, they had a greasy spoon cafe. anyway we used to see gary come in & i'm embarrassed to admit we viewed him as a bit of a has been.. i know, terrible thing to say but it was like he only had a couple of hits & besides everyone was obsessed with wham & duran who were doing the rock god thing & here was gary numan tinkering about with pop pop planes & hanging about with old geezers in boiler suits.. not very cool!..

& i don't remember feeling starstruck at all, but i was only 14, i remember thinking he was ancient but he must have only been about 25!

i remembered his music, his look had me creeped out, his intense stares & goofy voice did not appeal to me

at first we took the piss asking him.. are friends electric?.. we'd sing Cars, but replace cars with 'planes' we were fucking horrible but he was sweet & always smiled, gave a wave.. omg once some boys mooned at him from the runway as he took off

there was one occasion when he got a coffee & we shifted ourselves over to him, but we did not talk music at all!!! the main topic of conversation was make up & nail polish WTF!!!?? he was wearing black varnish, he said he used rimmel.

i appreciate his tunes now, but it's cool to think prince was impressed even if we weren't

By Gary Numan, you mean the David Bowie impersonator?

802 said:

By Gary Numan, you mean the David Bowie impersonator?

Apart from the look never got the Bowie connection.

Name a Numan song that is a Bowie rip-off?

treehouse said:

SquirrelMeat said:

But the likes of Human League and OMD didn't make any type of mark on the industry until 1981. Gary had already been to number one by 1979.

He was way ahead of all of them. And he was doing his stuff when Prince was formulating Dirty Mind and Controversy.

Partly true. OMD's "Electricity" and Human League's "Being Boiled" were out by 1978. Numan was certainly a bigger name, but I'm pretty sure he didn't chart or tour the US until 1980.

Take a look at what charted in 1979:

ELO, Michael Jackson, Village People, Bee Gees, Blondie, Donna Summers.

Charting in 1980:

Pink Floyd, Lipps. Inc., Shalamar, Donna Summers, Blondie, Michael Jackson....and Prince.

Gary Numan was an influence, but he's not a pioneer.

Electricity didn't even get released until 1980, and being boiled 1978 release was a print run of about 500.

Replicas (Tubeway Army's biggest hit, which also made the US billboard 200) was out 6 months before Dirty Mind.

I don't think Prince copied Gary, but the synth based but guitar and drum sound of Tubeway Army is far more a kin to Dirty Mind / Controversy than pure synth pop like OMD or Human League.

What about Soft Cell?

Wonder did Prince listen to them? ( and any jokes about Sex Dwarf will be more than welcome)

eireboy34 said:

What about Soft Cell?

Wonder did Prince listen to them? ( and any jokes about Sex Dwarf will be more than welcome)

He probably did, who knows? Explains his fashion sense later on. Like in that particular Lovesexy picture for example looking like Marc Almond with more makeup on.

SquirrelMeat said:

Replicas (Tubeway Army's biggest hit, which also made the US billboard 200) was out 6 months before Dirty Mind.

Right, well we're in agreement that it makes sense Prince was a fan and took something away from Gary Numan...

...but you're assuming Prince got the import version, and managed a 6 month time frame from Replicas release to Dirty Mind's release. It's an impossible timeline for that era of record industry.

...and my bigger point is that electronics are everywhere by that point (including Prince's first album in 1978) and that's true wether it was obscure underground music, or top 40 hits.

...and that's not even counting new wave acts local to Prince like The Trapezoids, or The Suburbs.

Hi

just came across this thread... no surprise that there is a lot of guesswork involved in this... but here are some facts that will hopefully help.

Gary Numan toured the USA in early 1980 to promote his Pleasure Principle album, (the tour was called The Touring Principle)

He played Minneapolis on 3rd March at the Guthrie Theatre

http://www.setlist.fm/set...485fc.html

That spring, whilst he was in the USA, he appeared on Saturday Night Live and performed 'Cars' to a TV audience of 40 million.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...Oj8SEvYOiw

Prince's 'Dirty Mind' album was recorded between May and June of 1980

Personally I would say not only is it obvious just from the sounds they both used (they both had similar equipment - the Oberheim OBXa synthesiser for one) but also from their attitude on stage, that Prince was definitely influenced by Gary Numan.

I also know from having interviewed Dez Dickerson that the UK new wave sound in general was a big influence on the band when they were coming up with their Dirty Mind visual style.

http://citinite.wordpress...ckerson-2/

I would also suggest that Prince's fondness for writing about cars and computers in the early 80s is down to Gary Numan's song topics.

Incidentally, one of the reason's Gary Numan has what we would consider a peculiar attitude is because he has Asperger's Syndrome.

I wrote this blog post a while back... there's lots of videos but if you only check one, check the piano intro to 'Down In The Park' from 1981. If that doesn't sound like something from Prince's Purple Rain era, nothing does.

http://citinite.wordpress...ary-numan/

best

Manny Z (down in the paisley park)

[Edited 6/20/11 7:49am]

This isn't the first time I've heard about musicians raving about Gary Numan - which has always been kinda funny to me because I'm always like, "...They're talking about the guy who made that song 'Cars'?"

It seems weird to me that people see him as a genius. Although, to be fair all I've ever heard from the guy is that song, maybe he's done some really epic shit I've never even heard before.

armpit said:

This isn't the first time I've heard about musicians raving about Gary Numan - which has always been kinda funny to me because I'm always like, "...They're talking about the guy who made that song 'Cars'?"

It seems weird to me that people see him as a genius. Although, to be fair all I've ever heard from the guy is that song, maybe he's done some really epic shit I've never even heard before.

Well you know what to do, then!

That's how Prince learned to use the Boss BF-2 flanger.

steakfinger said:

That's how Prince learned to use the Boss BF-2 flanger.

armpit said:

maybe he's done some really epic shit I've never even heard before.

Put it this way - once you listen to "Are friends Electric", "I die you die", "We have a technical", "Down in the Park", you'll hear "Cars" in a whole new light.

I have always maintained that Computer Blue wouldn't have been Computer Blue without I DIE, YOU DIE (from Telekon in 1980). Listen to the last 30 seconds of it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74JBun0cmOc) and tell me that it isn't obvious that Prince copied some of the feedback/confusion sounds into the end of Computer Blue.

Lisa supposedly influenced him into listening to his music. I think it really opened up his sound a great deal, but the ending to Computer Blue is the most obvious reference I know of it happening.

I seem to remember that "Rave un2 the joy fantastic" samples "Remember I Was Vapour" by Gary Numan as well, and that the hand clap sounds that Prince used on When Doves Cry (and others) was also on Gary Numan's 'Night Talk' off of his 1981 album Dance.

THE Prince that i loved the most & that i love is the Prince of the early 80's (80>85)...The Minneapolis Sound is something so specific.... what would be Prince' sound without Gary Numan's influence...something else maybe....the sound of Gary Numan is written in Prince's Music.....without Numan.....the sound of Dirty Mind>Controversy>1999 & Purple Rain would have been different...it's so OBVIOUS....if your ears are in normal function...you can't denied this...sorry.....of course Prince was influenced by many artists before his time & during his Time but Gary Numan in some way has showed to Prince the WAY to follow for his own Revolution!!