Acknowledging "White Supremacy" and still loving The Revolution - or - The not so hidden subtext of Revolution hatred on The Org.

Let's start with the assumption that America is a racist society. We have a black man as president, but systemic racism is still an issue for black people in general. Access to proper education, public safety, gainful employment and many other privileges of full citizenship are out of reach or are more difficult to obtain for many communities of color of certain classes. Many of these communities are troubled and impoverished. The situation of these troubled communities today is directly linked to the history of racism and the continuing vestiges of white supremacy in the United States.

In this conversation we are going to acknowledge that all of the above is true.

From there, let's acknowledge the history and genesis of the selling of Rock n' Roll and 'race music' to white folks. Little Richard was the Queen of Rock and Roll. Much of what came to pass in our popular music history owes a debt to him. He himself owes a debt to church music, field hollers, Eastern European Oompa bands, jazz, blues and country music, etc... But Little Richard, along with Chuck Berry, are the major reasons Rock 'n Roll came to pass. Little Richard was considered dangerous. Pat Boone was made the white face of Rock 'n Roll, and his versions of Little Richard songs greatly outsold Little Richard's for a time. Black men's works and creative output were not valued enough at the time that they were thought to be able to have popular money-making appeal. Meaning it wouldn't sell to the white kids, the 90% of the potential music market.

Let's fast forward to Oakland California and Sly and the Family Stone. The (sometimes) promise of Rock and Roll from the American Civil Rights movement and beyond is that someday "We Shall Overcome" white supremacy and the horror of our racist history. Sly and the Family Stone purposely foregrounded that idea with a line-crossing multiracial band and "We got to live together" ethos.

Knowing this abbreviated history of white racism and Rock 'n Roll, I want to talk about The Revolution. Specifically, I want to acknowledge how controversial it is here on The Org to acknowledge The Revolution's contribution to Prince's music during the time they were together.

To me, The Revolution was Prince's best band ever. I realize some people disagree, and that's OK, but I don't think that stating so should be controversial as it is here.

I think a lot of what some people on the org object to when it comes to giving props to The Revolution is this history of the music industry's racism, and maybe even Prince's own desire to crossover to white audiences by having a 50% white band.

We don't know exactly all the reasons why Prince wanted a mixed group.

I'd like to offer here that one can appreciate The Revolution and at the same time acknowledge the nefariousness of white supremacy and our shared racist history.

[Edited 7/24/10 16:45pm]

Uh WHAT?!

Timmy84 said:

Uh WHAT?!

I was hoping you could translate bro,

Love is Colorblind. Simple as that. I Love the "Revolution," as well as all of Prince's other bands. I think Wendy looks like a pirate don't U?

babynoz said:

Timmy84 said:

Uh WHAT?!

I was hoping you could translate bro,

Man I'm just tired of this. I loved the Revolution myself but it's less to do with their skin color. I don't dig racist attitudes.

It's early to call this a race-baiting thread but I just... ugh

[Edited 7/24/10 17:47pm]

I get what you're saying but I dont think people "dislike" The Revolution, and if they did I don't think it was because there were white members. I have some other thoughts but im not going to go there.

Timmy84 said:

babynoz said:

I was hoping you could translate bro,

Man I'm just tired of this. I loved the Revolution myself but it's less to do with their skin color. I don't dig racist attitudes.

It's early to call this a race-baiting thread but I just... ugh

[Edited 7/24/10 17:47pm]

It's just appalling the lenghts people will go to and the absurd arguments they will fabricate in order idealize and romanticize the golden years. *cue violins*

I get it already...I got it the first thousand times it's been said...and the next thousand times it will be said every single week for the forseeable future.

Honestly, it's like Revolultion Evangelists trying to convert the heathens or something,

Really? That bad? I know it's not the greatest piece of writing, but... I actually sat on this for a couple weeks trying to get my thoughts out. I'm not trying to "race bait" anyone. Just wanted to try and have an open discussion ...

I should have ended this with a direct question maybe.

JudasLChrist said:

Really? That bad? I know it's not the greatest piece of writing, but... I actually sat on this for a couple weeks trying to get my thoughts out. I'm not trying to "race bait" anyone. Just wanted to try and have an open discussion ...

I should have ended this with a direct question maybe.

Yeah maybe titled it differently than what you did because the title doesn't even make sense IMHO. Not trying to attack you or anything but really, dude? lol

babynoz said:

Timmy84 said:

Man I'm just tired of this. I loved the Revolution myself but it's less to do with their skin color. I don't dig racist attitudes.

It's early to call this a race-baiting thread but I just... ugh

[Edited 7/24/10 17:47pm]

It's just appalling the lenghts people will go to and the absurd arguments they will fabricate in order idealize and romanticize the golden years. *cue violins*

I get it already...I got it the first thousand times it's been said...and the next thousand times it will be said every single week for the forseeable future.

Honestly, it's like Revolultion Evangelists trying to convert the heathens or something,

And if people liked the other musicians pre or post-Revolution, maybe that's more of a personal preference than a preference of color. Just a thought lol

babynoz said:

Timmy84 said:

Man I'm just tired of this. I loved the Revolution myself but it's less to do with their skin color. I don't dig racist attitudes.

It's early to call this a race-baiting thread but I just... ugh

[Edited 7/24/10 17:47pm]

It's just appalling the lenghts people will go to and the absurd arguments they will fabricate in order idealize and romanticize the golden years. *cue violins*

I get it already...I got it the first thousand times it's been said...and the next thousand times it will be said every single week for the forseeable future.

Honestly, it's like Revolultion Evangelists trying to convert the heathens or something,

I'm not trying to convert anyone. I think we can all assume they were pretty great. Yet, everytime The Revolution comes up on The Org, people kind of get angry. Because of things people have said here, usally indirectly, I wanted to try and have a discussion about why people have been so put off by the topic... I'm probably in way over my head.

Yeah, the title assumes that those who prefer other eras or acknowledge others were better (or lesser) is based on race.

Then again, why pretend like some preferences are not based on race by some.

JudasLChrist said:

babynoz said:

It's just appalling the lenghts people will go to and the absurd arguments they will fabricate in order idealize and romanticize the golden years. *cue violins*

I get it already...I got it the first thousand times it's been said...and the next thousand times it will be said every single week for the forseeable future.

Honestly, it's like Revolultion Evangelists trying to convert the heathens or something,

I'm not trying to convert anyone. I think we can all assume they were pretty great. Yet, everytime The Revolution comes up on The Org, people kind of get angry. Because of things people have said here, usally indirectly, I wanted to try and have a discussion about why people have been so put off by the topic... I'm probably in way over my head.

I think it's moreso the fact that every single week somebody, (not you) comes up with a different compelling reason why we should all agree that the Revolution is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

There are always two or three threads in Associated Artists praising them individually and collectively so I'm not seeing a situation where they don't get plenty of recognition. Maybe if you could specify which indirect comments were made, we could get a better idea of what the issue is?

Great music is great music. Different races bring different experiences and backgrounds to the music and gives the music a more diverse outcome. But you can have 10 people all of the same race in a band and do the same thing because individuals are also diverse in their own experiences and personalities. Prince is insanely talented and choses to work with other extremely talented people no matter which band it is it's always been great

AnaB said:

Great music is great music. Different races bring different experiences and backgrounds to the music and gives the music a more diverse outcome. But you can have 10 people all of the same race in a band and do the same thing because individuals are also diverse in their own experiences and personalities. Prince is insanely talented and choses to work with other extremely talented people no matter which band it is it's always been great

I agree. I think Prince puts a band together according to whomever can best realize his vision at a given time. He constantly re-interprets his sound and image through the years. A lot of people resent changes because they get really attached to a particular sound/image and others look forward to new experiences. I have great memories of the Revolution but a lot has happened in the 20 plus years since they departed.

babynoz said:

Timmy84 said:

Man I'm just tired of this. I loved the Revolution myself but it's less to do with their skin color. I don't dig racist attitudes.

It's early to call this a race-baiting thread but I just... ugh

[Edited 7/24/10 17:47pm]

It's just appalling the lenghts people will go to and the absurd arguments they will fabricate in order idealize and romanticize the golden years. *cue violins*

I get it already...I got it the first thousand times it's been said...and the next thousand times it will be said every single week for the forseeable future.

Honestly, it's like Revolultion Evangelists trying to convert the heathens or something,

I hear you. It's funny because I don't recall anyone saying they actually hated the members of the Revolution, nor does their participation as members of Prince's group have a damn thing to do with 'white supremacy'. If it did, those white members of Prince's group would not have been part of his band. They made their contribution, moved on with their lives and so did Prince. Prince trying to attract a multiracial audience was no crime. The poster should look at other artists today, and the music industry and see how they are now doing that today. I guess record company execs took a good lesson from Prince in not 'limiting' or forcing specific artists into one box just to attract one specific, type of audience. No artists should have limits on the type of music they choose to play. Prince has been there, done that, and has already obtained and achieved, what he set out to do, and has a major following of fans from all over the world, throughout his 30-year plus career. He doesn't have to prove, as a black artist, what he can or cannot play, because he never did, nor did he allow anyone to put limits on his creative music skills as an artist.

The poster seems to forget that the Revolution consisted of black/white memberss, so what does this have to do with 'white supremacy?' I think the problem is not so much fans can't discuss those former band members and their contributions to a segment of Prince's music career, as well as, other non-Revolution band members, I just think that some fans have this 'crazy' idea that Prince can't survive, musically without the former 'white members' of the Revolution, specifically Lisa/Wendy. and so many of them, tend to fantasize about bringing that 'era' of Prince back.

Wendy, Lisa, Dr. Fink and the other members of the former Revolution band, have moved on, and so has Prince. It's some of the fans that refuse to embrace Prince without the former Revolution members. and they made that their own issue, not Prince or the former Revolution band members.

[Edited 7/24/10 19:48pm]

--

[Edited 7/24/10 19:35pm]

I think you draw many conclusions that are simply incorrect. What proof do you have to support your assumptions?

[Edited 7/24/10 23:41pm]

Sweething said:

I think you draw many conclusions that are simply incorrect. What proof do you have to support your assumptions?

[Edited 7/24/10 23:41pm]

Can you be a little more specific? I'm not drawing assumptions.

JudasLChrist said:

Sweething said:

I think you draw many conclusions that are simply incorrect. What proof do you have to support your assumptions?

[Edited 7/24/10 23:41pm]

Can you be a little more specific? I'm not drawing assumptions.

You make many statements concerning the intetions of the musicians you mentioned and Prince.Org members likes/dislikes. Can you provide proof of your assertions?

Sweething said:

JudasLChrist said:

Can you be a little more specific? I'm not drawing assumptions.

You make many statements concerning the intetions of the musicians you mentioned and Prince.Org members likes/dislikes. Can you provide proof of your assertions?

Which statements?

Timmy84 said:

babynoz said:

I was hoping you could translate bro,

Man I'm just tired of this. I loved the Revolution myself but it's less to do with their skin color. I don't dig racist attitudes.

It's early to call this a race-baiting thread but I just... ugh

[Edited 7/24/10 17:47pm]

Too early? Maybe, but I think you could be on the right track...

Mars23 said:

Timmy84 said:

Man I'm just tired of this. I loved the Revolution myself but it's less to do with their skin color. I don't dig racist attitudes.

It's early to call this a race-baiting thread but I just... ugh

[Edited 7/24/10 17:47pm]

Too early? Maybe, but I think you could be on the right track...

I'd rather people give me the benefit of the doubt and assume my intentions are sincere.

Race baiting is what fox news does when they try to make white people afraid of black people. I'm not doing anything like that here.

^ It's hard to do that with THAT title. Not saying it for EVERYBODY here but for SOME...lol

The race card was soooooo OJ Simpson/90s

Get with the GEIGH millennium, fool.

Prince chose white members in the Revolution to break into the white mainstream market. There wasn't anything racist about it. He simply wanted more money.

Once he found out bands like NWA and Public Enemy were making money mainly off of middle class white kids, he realized that he no longer needed to do this. He discarded the revolution and replaced them with the Game Boyz and started rapping his brains out for street cred of the middle class white kids (which unfortunatey, MC Hammer had already monopolized).

It's all about money really. Not race.

Someone always repeats this Prince quote:

"The next card you pull better be an Ace, motherfucker

Or you can lay facedown!"

Always works.

I find the original post and its premise offensive as race-baiting and I have asked the moderator to lock this thread.

The precept or command the poster gives is: " we are going to acknowledge that all of the above is true" which includes his first statement via thread title "acknowledging white supremacy". To acknowledge is to recognize as valid.

Please lock this thread as I'm sure most of us would agree that it is not the color of one's skin that makes one supreme, nor is it one's ethnic classification; it is however the content of one's character.

Thank you.

//

[Edited 7/25/10 2:52am]

I don't get the negative responses of you people. But maybe I just understand the post in a less offensive way.

I agree that "white supremacy" was long a huge problem both in western society and in the music business. Your description of the rise of rock'n'roll through the white-ification of original "black" music is correct, as I understand it. And I agree that Prince has shown an active interest in the "race issue", hear for instance his version of "When will we b paid?"

There also may be some truth in the statement that creating a 50/50 b/w band was controversial at the time, and hence he was in that sense breaking barriers. I have read that Prince was very particular about the "brand" of the band, of having people representing many different groups or cultures/subcultures. Race might be just one factor though.

I disagree, though, that it is at all controversial on the Org to claim that The Revolution was Prince's best band. On the contrary.