NDRU said:

Well, Prince was about "swimming" way before he became
See my answer above for the rest of it

databank said:

again my question is not about the meaning of the song, this is a much smaller technical issue about the time frame of the individual lines in the chorus.

The last line begins "...and I'll come back again..." The word "and" links it to the previous line but it seems to be in a different time frame.

NDRU said:

Well, Prince was about "swimming" way before he became

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

I always felt that was the reason he chose that specific animal--not specifically because of what he says in the song about dolphins, just because of how we tend to see dolphins most of the time.

At the time people were telling him what to be. So he felt maybe they'd like him better as a dolphin performing tricks for treats. But he's saying that even if he did come back as a dolphin he still wouldn't bend to their ways but would swim freely.

NDRU said:

In otherwords, they were cutting off his fins and he was dying so to speak. Assuming his gaining "Emancipation" would be his returning as a dolphin, free and not being told how to swim.

databank said:

okay I can accept that, but he talks about his fins, then says I'll come back as a dolphin. So again, the time frame seems off

"If I came back as a dolphin would you listen to me then
would you let me be your friend
would you let me in
you can cut off all my fins but to your ways I will not bend
I'd die before I let you tell me how to swim
and I'll come back as a dolphin"

if the last line was maybe...

"If I come back again as a dolphin" it seems more consistent to me.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

It's more about "how can you tell me how to create music when you're not a musician or writer yourself?" They couldn't tell a dolphin how to swim either, since swimming is already inherent to them, as music is inherent to Prince.

ernestsewell said:

I didn't see it that way at all. I saw it strictly as existing in freedom. It was less the manager telling him to create a song in G Flat vs the manager determining volume of output.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

I saw it as both dolphins and humans can live either free or as captives, and Prince would be free even if he came back as a dolphin--or die.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

I think maybe the ending music was what made me think of a carnival or something

In the LRC dance mix, I really REALLY wished he extended the fantastic uplifting melodies instead of abrubtly ending them with a scream and this started drowning into a minor key ughh drives me mad

NDRU said:

I exactly like that part because of the break. "If your last December.....
If my last December what.....?????
Came, what would you do.

I like it the way it is. I'll add some more to this thead manyana.

Bohemian67 said:

that's a good point, I hadn't looked at it that way.

This thread went into a tangent about Dolphin, but that just showed that people have different interpretations.

That's why there's no right or wrong. If something bug us it's not because it's wrong, it's just a personal feeling.

ernestsewell said:

... my sentiments exactly

NDRU said:

Interesting to read the stuff on the Dolphin because I'm not a fan of the song and have only listened a couple of times but it didn't grab me. I associate Dolphin/Bambi those kind of names with something soft and beauitful & the line bolded actually put me out of joint. I didn't hear the "cut off my fins part" but the whole idea is just awfully bloody.

But I get the others' interpretations. If that was his message though, I think he should have made it really personally and kept himself as human. It would have been more brash and direct. AND...if he wanted to be the dolphin then I see your point. The message might have been stronger if he for example had said something alone the lines of "if I come back as bird, will you clip my wings?"

Ones that don't sit right with me though I like the songs.

Mr Man. The message is really good but the blame goes to Man which I find sexually discriminatory, too singular & doesn' emcompass mankind as a whole. Also, behind every successful man there is a woman. (ok, in Prince's case it's often the exception) But women too contribute to society downgrade. Women are more consumerism fanatics than men.

Maybe the letter should be writen to Society & come from him personally, instead of "we/us" Or could it just be left out? "maybe I should a write a letter...I say hey... what's wrong with the world today..." In the working round the clock and the right to moan verse, I think it would be fine left out but the chorus needs something.

Holy River: This song is so beautiful and such a spiritual awakening.But then he says, "I called my girl and said I something to give her." Then he goes and ASKS her for something! "I asked her to marry me and she said yes."

Besides the "yes" being predictable, the "asking" doesn't fit into the "giving" part to me. Also, the word "marry" indicates he bought her a ring. Yet everything previously mentioned in the song that is "awakening" is spiritual. The "physical things of enjoyment" that could be bought, "clubbing and the port" did not bring happiness. Yet he rounds up this song with a physical image of a "ring." To me it doesn't do justice to the entire spiritual imagery presented in the song to that point.

You could argue, he's giving her himself & no "ring" is given & he's only asking her for her "hand in marriage" so it's not physical. But the words don't translate that image to me. The part after is fine and beautiful.

I guess I want him to give her something else, I just don't know what. The image I want is for them to "go down to the Holy river" where the moon is dancing like diamonds on the water.....(something).....and then they can drown in each others' tears. Love the song though.

Bohemian67 said:

The problem you appear to be having with Dolphin is that it is a metaphor and you are trying to analyse it literally, which leads to being overly pedantic on certain phrases. Had Prince "kept himself as human" then the whole metaphor aspect is lost and the song would be potentially far less interesting. The point being that Prince is saying "If you won't listen to me as Prince, then what if I was something else entirely - would you then take notice?". That is the entire point, so it wouldn't work with him saying "You don't listen to me now, would you still listen if I remained as Prince". Do you see? He then extends the metaphor with all the stuff about removing fins and swimming. Again, the point being that it was largely non-musicians (the record label execs) telling him, an actual musician, how to be!

And I really don't get why substituting the "dolphin" metaphor for one of a "bird" would be any different (except that it would be weaker, given all the symbolic connotations of a dolphin).

I also find it odd that you can label "Mr Man" as being sexually discriminatory!! Again, you are just taking that too far and way out of context. It is a common phrase amongst Western society "working for the MAN", or "sticking it to the MAN" (itself reflective of the discrimination that exists in modern society). Prince is just using a common phrase to show who he is talking about - i.e. the faceless powers in positions of authority (commonly the government, but can equally apply to employers or anyone in a position of power. Prince doesn't use it in a discriminatory way and isn't really trying to highlight the sexual issue either, he's just using a common phrase so that it sits well with the audience and makes it clear that he is addressing generic authority.

It wouldn't work if the letter was written to society! It is being written to those in authority, because it is about all the broken promises and lies put forward to society, about how the authorities are supposed to be there to serve the people but often just serve themselves to obtain more power and wealth. Hence, it is also fine that the letter should come from "us" and not just Prince. He doesn't want to be the crusader, but wants society as a whole to unite against authority that isn't performing in society's interests.

With Holy River, again it appears you are being overly pedantic with those lyrics. He calls and says he has something to give her - clearly the implication is that its both himself and a ring and he then asks for her hand in marriage. There is nothing wrong with that. It would only be wrong if he said "I called and said In had something to give her. I asked her for a ring and if she wanted to marry me", clearly that would not follow. But, as it is, he tells her he has something to give her (himself and the ring) and then, quite logically, asks her to marry him. That's how proposals go!

Marriage is both the physical union of a couple and a promise undertaken in front of God - hence, it is both physical and spiritual with a massive depth and meaning to it. So, for me, the fact he wants to make a union with a woman that, if you are Christian you believe that only God can make or break that bond, then Prince is offering the most deep spiritual and physical commitment that he can. Of course, like many marriages, it doesn't quite work out that way and people often forget that they made a union in the belief that God can undo it and go and get divorced anyway

Even though it is not applicable in the above cases, there is something known as "artistic licence", which is where some latitude is allowed in the logic of an artistic statement to allow it to make the original, intended point or message. That's the beauty of art, it doesn't have to be something that is entirely logical in order to make a statement - the beauty being the unique way the point is illustrated to the audience.
[Edited 5/1/10 3:14am]

ernestsewell said:

Yet u continue to brag about "cutting off his fins" (i.e. editing down his music the way he wanted it to sound..) I'll be damned,,,your the WB of the ORG buddy!

Whilst I am sure that this thread was started with the best intentions (and NDRU does state as much), I find the whole concept slightly odd and disconcerting. Furthermore, I find it totally bizarre that some, in particular the extreme lengths that Ernest is going to, take to heavily editing pieces of music to either suit them better or, even narcissisticly, feeling that they are improving on the original. For me, that is tantamount to sacrilege! How can you be so self-aggrandising as to feel that you can better someone else's artistic expression?!

Do you do this with any other form of art? Do you edit novels to "improve" the story? Do you chop up films to expedite the denoument?

It gives me this rather ludicrous image - you get a gift, one of the world's most famous pieces of art.....the Mona Lisa. You hang it on your wall and say "Hmm, something is wrong with this". You then get your black magic marker and draw on some eyebrows!!!

If you feel that strongly that you can really improve something artistcally, how about you make something original first and change the artistic scene that way, as opposed to taking someone else's hard work and originality and butchering it because you think you can do better? Egotistical madness!

lotusboy said:

Precisely! See my post above
[Edited 5/1/10 3:13am]

Mindflux said:

I'm glad we agree Mindflux, if there was a superhero version of the Org, Ernest would be the arch nemesis..we would call him Warner Brother!

lotusboy said:

I think many of us agree on Ernest. It's best to just ignore him. Hopefully one day the org will get an ignore post function. Mindflux, I'll be coming back to you.

THINGS TO REMOVE:
I Rock Therefore I Am: nix the stupid "show me your titties" line.

Dolphin: "dolphin" should never be rhymed with "all fins".

Gold video: the Purpleaxxe should have died a quiet death long ago.

Bambi: youthful poor judgement? Fine, fine, but who needs the homophobia?

THINGS TO EXTEND:
Housequake: bring them funky horns from the 12-inch onto the album!

The Vault: c'mon, release the outtakes, Rebel songs, etc 4 real!

The relatively unedited exploration on Chaos & Disorder? Go with it.

In a word - Dez. (I know it hurts, P!)
[Edited 5/1/10 5:23am]

lotusboy said:

Get off my dick, you're getting boring. And remember that the next time you listen to a Prince album on shuffle, or skip a track because you don't care for it (and don't tell me you never have skipped a track, cuz you're a liar if you say so). Skipping a track or even listening to something in a different order is the same thing as me editing a track and getting rid of Tony M. or some other lame ass rapper. It's not how Prince wanted you to hear the album, and when you change that up, you're no better than me editing stuff.

No one brags. The point of the thread is to "fix" Prince's music. I offered what I did.

By the way, your comparison to the song and my editing is far-fetched at best.

Mindflux said:

I have only listened to dolphin 3 times because I don't like it and precisely for one of the lines NDRU put in his message.

First, it's not the words it's the music. Yes I literally think of dolphins chattering, their friendly smiles, trustfulness and playfulness. As far as the message goes which I discovered in this thread, I'm saying, if the message is to WB & the powers that be, I think a blatant message from Prince would have been stronger. Like MJ's DS "Don Standon is a cold man." It's a hard song throughout with an angry message, direct & bold.

In Dolphin, from what I understand, Prince is disillusioned & offers up the suggestion of being crucified (fins cut off) but will still return as a dolphin because he's strong & will remain himself (coz dolphins are free.) If his message was to WB I think the dolphin imagery is too soft. Un etalon sauvage (wild stallion) would have fit into the sound of the music better for me & the enormity of the "fight" message against WB more real.

Mr Man. It's precisely because of the importance of the message that I think a common phrase shouldn't be used. Don't take my 'sexual discrimination' description too literally. You say, it can apply to "employers or anyone in power" (I get that) yet who votes and puts these people into power? All of society!

I think the importance of raising awareness that society today is in some ways "seriously sick" is more important than pointing fingers. You gotta work bottom up & change the mentality from there. In a nushell, if you want Society to sit up, pay attention and oust the dominant force blinding us all, then EVERYONE has got to change so that the force loses it's power. Therefore with such a strong song message I think it weakens it when we write to just the ones at the top, addressed casually as Mr Man.

Holy river. I never said there was something wrong with marriage. I said I feel it doesn't fit the rest of the song lyrics, don't forget imo. Yes, because divorce statistics are high & millions, including Prince, have not been able to adhere to that "God" control over their union. (side note) But most importantly, throughout the song, he comes to inner realisations which are not tangible. Marriage being a cultural human invention, in this song seems too tangible to me & I would have preferred something along the lines of intangible. Like I said, I don't know what.

I'm not negating "artistic license" but everyone experiences things differently according to their mindset and that's just what we're talking about. What doesn't fit into our OWN mindset in a few Prince songs, qua lyrics. ie. NDRU and I.

ernestsewell said:

Not even close - how is choosing not to listen to something (i.e.skipping a track) and multilating it the same thing? I'm going to choose not to look at this painting again, or I'm going to deface it?! Talking of making far-fetched points! Just another one of your tenuous links and effectively a truism. What was the other one recently.....? Oh yes, that you and Prince share the same musical gift! And you based that on the fact that you both make music! You can also run (I suspect), doest that mean you're Ussain Bolt?!
[Edited 5/1/10 8:14am]

Bohemian67 said:

Prince has rarely written blatantly - its almost always metaphors and statements that can be interpreted in a number of ways. For me, that's part of the beauty of his art (and, also a good cover for the author, because if it can mean several things, then no-one can tie you down to "you said this!"). One example of Prince being direct would be "Hello", so he has done it before, but often chooses not to. In fact, Mr Man is an example of Prince being straight-forward to - there's not much metaphor or double-entendre going on in that track.

I think you're still slightly off in your assessment of what Dolphin means. Certainly, I don't get any "crucifixion" hint going on. He is saying, effectively, you can torture me, try and mould me in to something else, but whatever your throw at me, I'm going to be myself - in fact, I'd rather die than live by your rules.

Its cool if that's how you feel about the track, but I think the dolphin imagery is quite intelligent (particularly because of what it symbolises and also people's love for the mammal itself), artistic and, well, just different (at least, I'm not aware of anyone suggesting they will reincarnate themselves as a dolphin! Its probably a story in Hinduism somewhere!) - perhaps he didn't want to be too angry about it? After all, he's questioning why people don't see the positivity and love in his song lyrics, so why would he then come out spitting? It wouldn't make sense to do that.

I hear what you are saying about Mr Man and I agree to some extent. But, I just feel that you're trying to give the song a different purpose to what was actually intended. The song is airing Prince's views and what he thinks most members of society feel about what is wrong with some of the authority's decisions. :It is NOT a rallying cry, or a call to arms. Its showing dismay, despondency and how "tired" people are with the status quo - hence the laid-back vibe of the song. And, because plenty of things have been tried (and failed) before, Prince's suggestion that "maybe we should write a letter" seems almost tongue-in-cheek to me. You know, he's suggesting that as a bit of a joke. But the imaginary letter, where he then goes on to disclose what he (and society in general, is his assumption) believes is from US to be inclusive and again to reinforce that he believes that this is a general malaise felt by most, not just him.

So, he's describing what most people might write as a letter of complaint to the powers that be. That's it, nothing more. It doesn't have to motivate, or gather the revolution, its just a list of moans if you like and, the point being, they're the same ones over and over again that could be written about in virtually any decade.

Again, I hear you about Holy River. All I will say to that is that a Christian wouldn't believe that marriage is a "a cultural human invention" - the Bible instructs on marriage and, therefore, it is God's law. (I'm not a "believer" myself so, of course, I agree that it is a human invention, but I'll bet Prince doesn't believe that!). Hence, given Prince's strong religious beliefs, he will regard the inclusion of marriage as being spiritual and holy. That doesn't work for you, thats fine.

For sure, its all down to perspective. And I'm not belittling you or even arguing with you. I am discussing it and enjoying the debate - I like it when people actually consider the lyrics, its a good thing. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion and I'm not trying to correct you - I'm just giving you my perspective. You may think its nonsense, but it may also shine a light on something and make you consider it in a way you haven't before. Certainly, there are some posts on the org that have made me do the same.
[Edited 5/1/10 8:10am]
[Edited 5/1/10 8:17am]

Mindflux said:

LOL@Mutilating. It's EXACTLY the same thing. In fact, my way is better. I make those cringe worthy tracks listenable again, thereby 99% preserving the continuity of the track order of the album.
[Edited 5/1/10 9:50am]

Mindflux said:

I should probably really listen to Dolphin to discuss it but the lyrics and interpretations here got me interested. My 'crucifixation' part was wrongly stated. I mean more the fact that corporate giants can try and nail someone/push them with their back against a wall to try & control what someone is doing. Actually, I know a few people who've said (including myself we'd like to be dolphins. Nothing Prince related though. Maybe Buddhist or Hinduist influences. Maybe one day the music in this song will attract me enough to really listen to it properly.

I suppose I want Mr man to be something like "Lets go crazy." I don't want to take the whole thing lightly, but the laid back aspect and casual reference does say I should. I think I'm looking for a few Prince special songs. When I'm in a bad mood, there are a few MJ songs that vent my fury perfectly. As I'm not into heavy rock guitar, that is a little difficult with Prince.

I'll look up "Hello" on youtube & thanks for the notes on how you experience the music. Indeed, understanding others' interpretations is always interesting.

We should maybe change the thread title leaving out the "fix." Lyric discussions here though don't often get any attention.
[Edited 5/1/10 10:38am]

Mindflux said:

The point of this thread is something of a challenge to critics, as well. Those who tend to say "this sucks" offer nothing but an opinion. I was curious if the critics could actually offer something better. I'm not here to bash Prince.

what's funny is that once I started this thread, I came up with very few examples that I thought had technical issues. The issues are more personal taste, such as "I think that's cheesy" etc.

I am obviously not going to change Prince's music (other than adding tracking to Lovesexy or make a mix for my own pleasure). I am certainly not a better songwriter than Prince, but I feel like he could still learn more himself.

But the Mona Lisa is one of the great masterpieces of any for of art. There are a often things that can keep Prince's songs from being a musical "Mona Lisa," at least in my mind--again not that I am better than him. But he's not above criticism.
[Edited 5/1/10 14:20pm]

Mindflux said:

The fact is, most things get edited before they get released. Sometimes stuff gets missed--like in one shot a guy is wearing glasses and in the other shot they're missing, only to return again a second later.

The editing process simply an attempt to make the artist's message as clear as possible. It's not an attempt to crush their vision.

I love Prince's music for what it is, and will forgive 1000 "mistakes" if the music is good enough. But most stuff is not perfect, just as no people are perfect.

I'll add a personal explanation, as well, I have lately been doing this exact thing to my own music. Going over every word & note to get rid of things that hold them back. A lot of my songs suck because of little "mistakes" like this. Prince is a master, but I thought it would be fun to listen to his stuff with the same ear.