TrevorAyer said:

This is the question I ask of my self, Is all of this steering my heart 2 feed in2 either this or that, and if I do will it become? Will I be a part of it's creation? What is it do I want 2 participate in? What do I want 2 give? Are these ways 2 push the heart into living a reality that manifests the fear? I don't know seems posssible 2 myself. If I can do it in my life, why can't I do it on a larger scale? I am part of humanity so my intentions make this world into what I see in it's reflection, on Earth. Duality is a difficult thing 2 surpass. I quote "If planet Earth was in the palm of my hand".

ndigo said:

What makes you think they are intentional chemical doses?

Hey Ufo and all the doubters throwing around junk like what kinda degree do i have and other nonsense ... i did some more research for you

here is the website

http://patriotsquestion911.com/

and contains within links to the following:

200+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
700+ Engineers and Architects
200+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
400+ Professors Question 9/11
230+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members
200+ Artists, Entertainers, and Media Professionals



CREDIBLE CRITICS OF THE OFFICIAL ACCOUNT OF 9/11

41 U.S. Counter-Terrorism and Intelligence Agency Veterans Challenge the Official Account of 9/11 – Official Account of 9/11: "Terribly Flawed," "Laced with Contradictions," "a Joke," "a Cover-up"
May 18, 2009

29 Structural & Civil Engineers Cite Evidence for Controlled Explosive Demolition in Collapses of All 3 WTC High-Rises on 9/11 – More than 950 Architects and Engineers have joined call for new investigation, faulting official collapse reports
June 17, 2009

Respected Medical Professionals Launch New 9/11 Truth Group – Announces Online Petition Calling for New Investigation
Feb. 24, 2009

Twenty-five U.S. Military Officers Challenge Official Account of 9/11 – Official Account of 9/11 “Impossible”, “A Bunch of Hogwash”, “Total B.S.”, “Ludicrous”, “A Well-Organized Cover-up”, “A White-Washed Farce”
Jan. 14, 2008

Eight U.S. State Department Veterans Challenge the Official Account of 9/11 – Official Account of 9/11 "Flawed", "Absurd", "Totally Inadequate", "a Cover-up"
Jan. 5, 2008

Seven Senior Federal Engineers and Scientists Call for New 9/11 Investigation – Official Account of 9/11 "Impossible", "Hogwash", "Fatally Flawed"
Dec. 13, 2007

Eight Senior Republican Administration Appointees Challenge Official Account of 9/11 – "Not Possible", "a Whitewash", "False"
Dec. 4, 2007

is that credible enough for ya?!

TrevorAyer said:

TrevorAyer said:

Have you looked up a single name on that website yourself? I briefly clicked on the page between errands at work and checked out one name: Frank A. DeMartini

And I thought, well here is a guy that designed the the trade center towers and is an architect etc. Let's see what he has to say... then I looked him up, OFF of that website. On a neutral source.

He died in the tower. He was in it.

So was his wife who he pushed along to get down and out (she escaped), but he stayed to help people. And his interviews are taken out of context, from an interview following Al Queda's first attempt at destroying the World Trade center. You do remember they tried before, right? With a bomb in 1993.

First of all he states in that old interview that the structure of the building would withstand impact of a plane because they would hold up like a grid. And that is exactly what they did until the grid softened from the heat of a constant smelting fire. Yes people, we can heat and soften steel, that's how we make stuff from it. Your pots and pans are made from softening steel.

If you read his wife's account, and many other testimonies and phone call transcriptions you will realize that these people were trapped in a building that did not collapse from plane impact, but collapsed when their core structure collapsed due to weakening from the heat. These people all reported a bunring fire and unimaginable heat.

I can't believe the idiots who put up this site would mislead you like this by putting in an interview and testimonial from someone who died in the tower. I wish I could transport these idiots back in time into the buildings and then call them to ask if they see the planted charges.

And then listen to them die.

Do you really think that a building of that massive construction and ability to withstand plane impacts would so smoothly fall from a regular detonation of planted explosives normally used to demolish old buildings? And where is the demolition explosion that started it all? There was no explosion. The tapes clearly show what was happening and clearly show the signs of a huge steadily burning fire. Yeah, thatwas what all the black smoke was. That was what many phone calls from the dying stated.

I also can't believe you posted a link to a youtube video of media idiots like Rosie O'Donnell spouting that they know something is up. It's like showing me a video of some little girl saying that the exhaust pipe of a car is what pushes it along. She is not educated. And she is the media. The false messengers. That youtube video is false media. You need to (if you have any substance at all to your soul, go meet or talk on the phone with one expert yourself and record the interview since you have the abominable audacity to make light of such a tragic event with conspiracy rambling with no intent to actually act in any way. That is a horrible sin. And a complete disrespect to the the families that lost loved ones that day on the planes, in the buildings, in the pentagon.

I do think humanity will kill itself with its ignorant self righteousness and constant quest to be superior for simple selfish gratification.

And this very quality masked under the defense/guise of religion is also a horrible SIN against human progress, healing, and defense against the patterns of entropy of nature that fight against human life (from allergies to cancer to mental illness resulting in predatory behavior). That is the DEVIL as some call it, tricking you.

Grump smurf says "I hate it"

PS... do you believe the moon landing was a hoax?

many explosions reported on live tv prior to collapse confirm that demolition was taking place, hundreds of experts phds building experts military aviation etc... over 1000 listed and documented find "official" story to be impossible ... u are a true source of disinformation ... sad to see ... i stand on the links i posted on this thread ... do u really think they would build 2 of the tallest buildings in the us without considering fire and airplane collisions ... no the steal does not melt ... in fact it didnt melt .. interestingly enough the main steel beams were found in the wreckage solid and cut into consistantly even pieces ... there are photos at the base showing a clean slice .. not melt .. ur taking shots in the dark at this point ... i am convinced u are not posting to debate but simply to mislead .. us citizens have the right to the truth of such an event .. i am far from alone in believing this as our consititutional right ... questions should be answered not spun

looked up your frank demartini and the site states right off WTC victim ... his quotes refer to his work on the building prior to collapse and are listed as such ... whats ur point? ur not making any sense ... he confirms building designed to withstand impact of large plane ... confirmed in a video conference ... i dont see ur point sorry.


Frank A. DeMartini – WTC victim. Architect and WTC Construction Manager, North Tower, 88th floor. Demartini first worked at the World Trade Center when Leslie E. Robertson Associates hired him to assess damage from the terrorist truck bombing in 1993.

•Video interview 1/25/01: "The [Twin Tower] building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it. That was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of jetliners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door. This intense grid ­ and the jet-plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting." http://video.google.com



•Editor's note: The Boeing 767-200s that impacted the Twin Towers on 9/11 were only slightly larger than 707s and DC 8s, the types of jetliners whose impacts the World Trade Center's designers anticipated. The maximum takeoff weight of the 707 is 15% less than the 767.

he is listed under quotes from WTC staff obviously some of whom are deceased but made statements regarding structural integrity of WTC design prior 2 911 again i dont see ur point ... maybe u should read instead of skim

Again I must say what is lead? In my truth leading is the minds will of proving ur ego is the one and only truth, and that another's feelings and beliefs lack any voice or part of all the truth or answers 2 a specific topic being focused on.
[Edited 12/4/09 11:48am]
[/quote]

I take it you are into philosophy?!?! My argument does not go that deep I'm affraid. Everyone one is free to believe want they want. I don't think in absolutes and I would certainly entertain the idea of chemtrails if the evidence was strong. If the thread had started by Prince claiming that the structure of DNA was not helical, how should I interpret that? It may be 'his truth' and may be conforting for him, but the peer reviewed evidence for it being helical is so overwhelming that it would be misleading, and wrong. You can always bring the argument back to 'what is true for you is the truth' and then you can be satisfied that you are always in the right. Unfortunately, making an informed opinion (not ignorant) is based on assessing the facts and evidence of a particular situation. If it wasn't I would be the best footballer the World has ever seen!

I am not meaning to be rude, so please don't take my posts as a personal attack. I think we have very oposing views but listening to them is, if nothing else, interesting!

TrevorAyer said:

Okay let's talk about these cut beams at the base of the building... where did you this information, that sounds interesting. "interestingly enough the main steel beams were found in the wreckage solid and cut into consistantly even pieces ... there are photos at the base showing a clean slice "

I want to know more, where did you see this?

ollytheman said:

I take it you are into philosophy?!?! My argument does not go that deep I'm affraid. Everyone one is free to believe want they want. I don't think in absolutes and I would certainly entertain the idea of chemtrails if the evidence was strong. If the thread had started by Prince claiming that the structure of DNA was not helical, how should I interpret that? It may be 'his truth' and may be conforting for him, but the peer reviewed evidence for it being helical is so overwhelming that it would be misleading, and wrong. You can always bring the argument back to 'what is true for you is the truth' and then you can be satisfied that you are always in the right. Unfortunately, making an informed opinion (not ignorant) is based on assessing the facts and evidence of a particular situation. If it wasn't I would be the best footballer the World has ever seen!

I am not meaning to be rude, so please don't take my posts as a personal attack. I think we have very oposing views but listening to them is, if nothing else, interesting![/quote]


I did't see it as deep but again what are the lyrics? I see it quite the opposite but lol Prince's Gemini ways...This theory is deep It's back into the rabbit hole of everthing I'm about 2 state:-o lol ya know I have never studied Phillosophy maybe I should delve a bit.
Please understand I was asking my self this ? I should have put that before stating the question. Facts are at hand and it's so confusing 2 say they hold a definite wrong or right in evidence. It's judgment, a belief and it goes down down down from this person 2 the next 2 another. Hence deep theory, but where did it begin or end? In me, if I go looking it's meant 2 steer me back into knowing myself. It's crazy because the thread question in concern is, Does prince have and chemtrail believers out there. As the tread has developed other topics have tumbled in. I think I answered the highlight accordingly as I began 2 research the topic. So hence the theroy gets deep because it dosen't start at chemtrails. It's a dimension of overwhealming deep confusion. Which leads one in my opinion 2 view as an observer the question of theory. It starts develpoing into a this or that good or evil did they or didn't they. Which points back 2 theory again in the sense of what do U wish 2 believe. That statement is a reflection of the debate back and forth between others posts here on the subject matter. So I am viewing this a a personal choice 2 believe if either side being wrong or right, what if each of them are? In each persons mind they are, which again puts it back into the deep theory. If it is truth of the conspiracy theories they are doing exactly what it is been claimed they have been. (leading others based on anothers will of what they want them 2 believe.) Conspiracy becomes a confusion which is the exact defenition of what it is doing, 2 put u in a place 2 pick a side based on evidence which u judge based again on others judgements of this or that. Again I must say what is lead? In my truth leading is the minds will of proving ur ego is the one and only truth, and that another's feelings and beliefs lack any voice or part of all the truth or answers 2 a specific topic being focused on. Now that being stated, Yes I agree like I have said through this thread and the point I am trying 2 seek in myself.It is in reflection 2 what is going on here between others. It is this really what is truth or not? I am seeing it based on personal judgement which coincides with the statement of a theory being deep. In that contimplation I see the truth of the lyrics and statements of Prince that has him asking and looking for his answer 2 his own truth, yet posing the ?. He in my opinion is claiming he is studying this deep theory in retrospect of an observer which has him again back at the deep theory which I beleive really has the only answer what do u believe either way is there a wrong or right? Judgement is the essence of the theory in my looking apon it and judgment cannot truly be understood for it leads 2 more confusion, which I then ask this, I must seek with the heart, thou shall not judge, or know thy self. 2 interesting statements which pop up in the confusion of perceptions. Will I be lead either way? or will I look at the theory and choose from both sides 2 view how each make my heart feel. That spins me into I think staying out of it is an easy way 2 not get caught in it. To me it is the game of fear or rightousness, based on certain responses of the human will, ego or mind and what it wants 2 experience. I take nothing as an attack u are wonderful 2 say ur truth only one can decide how they take it. I say u could be the worlds greatest football player if u take out the preception of what is great, A certain self analyzation based on proving u are the lead.. ha ha that was a joke but in my world is truth.. be well friend..
[Edited 12/5/09 15:49pm]
[Edited 12/5/09 15:50pm]

ok well i have to admit i am totally too pooped out from dancing to the black eyed peas with my kids all day and gettin my butt kicked in a pillow fight but found this one quick enough to post

pic of severed beams for u ufo as requested goodnight

http://www.opednews.com/p...4-371.html

oh and also while i am at it could someone please explain how the pentagon was hit over an hour after the wtc ... i mean its the pentagon ... u know central headquarters for the military ... why was that plane not shot down they had over an hour ... they knew the plane was off course (if it was a comercial plane) and its one of the most protected airspaces in the country

alls i am sayin is it just does not add up and actually points toward what has happened over and over in history most recently in germany when the gov faked an attack on its own capital then started attacking every other country calling it a preemptive strike to convince its citizens that it was the right thing... first we attacked iraq now afganistan as a preemptive strike ... i dont believe all the people in germany are just evil and wanted to rule the world but maybe those in power did and thats how they convinced the populus ... the story is the same in the usa ... we are being convinced that it is ok to attack other countries as a preemptive strike but they just see us as we saw germany ... i know its not a pretty picture but this is just too ugly for me to ignore .. its not really ego for me or a neccesity to be right is just strait up WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON AROUND HERE SOMETHING IS VERY VERY WRONG i see the future and it will be thanks to prince for the crack that let the light in

an uninformed populus is a populus in slavery - george washington

I posted dose, see below instead
[Edited 12/6/09 1:12am]

TrevorAyer said:

I was hoping you would bite... ha

http://www.vidoemo.com/yv...emolition=

DWZ said:[quote]Its not really ego for me or a necessity to be right is just strait up WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON AROUND HERE SOMETHING IS VERY VERY WRONG…

I don't see u coming from ego, I see u stating ur ?'s 2 the theory, by what u've delved into seeing it. I don’t know how could it be ego when ur coming from the heart asking it in a theory form. I see that ur wondering about a certain theory which has become a conspiracy. I believe that the conspiracy has become a conspiracy only for the fact that someone has gone against the evidence that has unfolded and the way it did as truth. I see it as truth is covered up by trying 2 prove it’s wrong. Hence, conspiracy, so back and forth the illusion goes into duality again once more. I feel that instead of the mind, u are looking beyond that deeper 2 see ur truth in ur heart.
Maybe if the theory posses the question it's up 2 us 2 make the choice in the heart how we wanna see it unfold. Or how we don't, I observe that knowing thy self allows us 2 say YES or NO... it is the macrocosm the bigger picture of vengeance and superiority playing out the microcosm on the Org. blogging questions 2 pose what ur heart decides 2 support. Yet it is the same thing.
I will highlight Ufo now

I can't believe the idiots who put up this site would mislead you like this by putting in an interview and testimonial from someone who died in the tower. I wish I could transport these idiots back in time into the buildings and then call them to ask if they see the planted charges.

And then listen to them die.

I see that as the mentality of the ones trying 2 debunk the theory and say it’s wrong. Who created the conspiracy theory at it’s root? Is it the ones who want 2 cause the confusion in the first place? Then 2 direct the truth a million different ways so u can’t know urself or what 2 believe? I don’t believe it’s justified 2 kill anyone, for what they believe in anywhere anytime any how. I see it again as, it is the reflection of war. Moreover, the reason or justification comes back 2 theory and conspiracy of a judgment of another’s beliefs right or wrong. It’s about honoring the 1’s living in humanity not countries or religions or race 2 me. Once more Prince’s planet Earth lyrics come 2 mind. I see the irony of terrorists bombing the U.S. What does the US call them selves while bombing another country? Would the U.S. be a terrorists 2 them? What is terrorism I ask myself? Well that is a deep one, but on the surface I will say this. If I was 2 pledge my allegiance 2 a country that means I am a part of them, in a sense I belong 2 them. Therefore, what they do 2 another country I would play part of (money, taxes etc etc .) I am paying homage 2 a false “god” a nation under God, which I had 2 pay homage 2 then I said wait a min. homage could be seen as worship, hmmm.. Would a govt. of the country I pledged my allegiance 2 then be considered my God? What ever another country does 2 the one I pledged 2 is affecting me. Now I could look at it like this, if I was not pledged 2 a country because I did not believe in what they did what would that make me? Could my beliefs be considered a threat? Moreover, if another country did something 2 the country I am not pledged 2 would it really be affecting me (in a sense yes) or would it be affecting the country the "god" which I live under? Would it be a personal attack on me or the institution that controls that country? Is this really a war on people or is it the war of "gods"/countries/govt.'s which are in control of the people? I mean making I think making a difference is standing up for what u beleive in without fear. Being in that moment where u say NO more will I believe that this is the truth I want 2 live in. If all the politics, govts, class, sects, religon on and on were never downloaded 2 seperate if u saw past judgement of duality, wrong or right, and saw people, who ever they are whatever they believe and didn't judge them. Would we still as a human concept have a drive,desire,need or reason 2 take anothers life? I wonder that all the time. If we honored we are all a family we live under the sun on earth and celebrated differencies and learned from them I wonder where we would be? Would there still be a hierachy of a small few who had power over anyone else? Are we allowing a heiracy because of fear of not speaking up? I think the only way that could be is if it starts in hummanity they are a few, we are so many. Anywhoo that is something I ponder at the moment in these hypothetical questions I seek 2 ask myself. This has been an interesting contemplation and my heart sees the truth 2 the whole theory of this. I truly see the questions of beliefs of judgments and beliefs. As long as I look at it without judgment and stay an observer it becomes at its root, all the same no matter who where how and what. I wanna thank all u guys for enlightening me this has been a juicy topic for me.
[Edited 12/5/09 21:59pm]

TrevorAyer said:

because we are gonna take the damn oil. Thank You

The professional debunkers use four primary tactics to accomplish their propaganda feats:

1) They refuse to mention, much less attempt to disprove, the most irrefutable and damaging evidence.

2) They take great delight in debunking only those conspiracy theories that are the weakest or that are planted by other government sympathizers to help discredit the more credible conspiracy facts. This is what is referred to as a "straw man" argument, where a weak or false argument is set up so that it can easily be knocked down.

3) They only select "experts" who agree with the official conclusion.

4) They snicker at or mock anyone who believes that government engages in criminal behavior or covers up crimes in collusion with judges, investigators, prosecutors, media heads, and hand-picked commissions. Worse, they label dissenters as unpatriotic or mentally imbalanced.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...r_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/wa...h34DzNhgMc
Interesting.... The theory gets deep Where is the root? As all I state before me in my last post
[Edited 12/6/09 14:11pm]

I just thought 2 myself, what is freedom here in the U.S? Freedom here 2 me is the illusion that we are indeed free. Yet in all actuality we are in slavery, 2 the will of a small few. The illusion of freedom is painted with technology, fantasy, entertaiment and ego. How can liberation and freedom truly be known if I allow myself 2 be controled by outside influences, and not seek truth or liberation myself. When finding it in self it paves the way 2 see it outside of self, which descerns that what I see around me as truth or not. I have the free will 2 be under another, an ilussion, a fantasy, technology,or entertainment. That comes from how I live and participate within the world outside of me. Does that then define who I AM? Then does that defenition change the world around me, Sigh again the words, I quote, If planet earth was in the palm of ur hand.. It's a cry 2 humanity, right now come back in2 balance with 1.That caused it all 2 be... for me what caused it all 2 be is LOVE, the heart within the kingdom of man, which is the reflection of the creator once more.

TrevorAyer said:

So how do you explain the use of cut metal beams as proof of charges on the websites you maintain are the gospel truth, when it was well documented that workers cut those beams after the collapse? This proves that the conspiracy website authors have presented false media by leaving out context, and in turn you took it to be truth. You my fellow orger, have been fooled by the media. The media of the authors of these websites.

I could systematically go through each conspiracy detail myself by conducting my own research and interviews and travelling, but I don't have the budget. I'm very surprised that some of the wealthy celebs that believe in the conspiracy theories haven't funded an investigation. Maybe it's because whn they dug a little bit, they found out how they were misled by the web media like http://www.opednews.com/p...4-371.html

So far you asked for a single photo of plane wreckage in the pentagon, and I presented many, then you tried to sidestep the photos saying you didn't believe them. Now you presented the sheared steel beams as evidence of charges (as if charges could even do that), and I presented the evidence that not only were they cut after the fact, but your favored website is now proven, at least in this detail, to not be above presenting false media and theories to mislead you.

Then, you complain with the list above against "debunkers". You're not really seeming to have a very solid, observant, logical stance.

But let's just go ahead and go back to Chemtrails, which is what this thread was about. How do you refute the scientific opinion based on physics and medical science that chemicals dispersed at such high altitudes would be as effective as blowing a finely crushed aspirin towards someone laying with a headache in bed?

2elijah said:

Example Certain "PEOPLE"would not be found in my neighborhood.
dig?????

hello ufo, i have already provided you with numerous links to literally thousands of professional and very well respected sources of factual information that directly contradicts the "official" story of the events of 911. there is an abundance of evidence contained in those links that supports the theory of demolition of the towers and the event being an inside job. your arguements not only usually dont make sense but the links you provide dont even work. your debate style is eratic and moves from personal attack to arguing that the whole 911 truth movement is just some kind of con. you have provided no credible evidence in support of your position and have ignored and avoided debating most of the evidence provided, while making personal attacks and discouraging anyone from investigating for them selves. the "official" story of 911 is easily impossible. i believe that you are nothing more than a typical debunker who is intent on influencing others to ignore researching much of the serious issues at hand for them selves. instead you encourage a conspiracy theory of your own ala the "osama" theory which is completely unproven (as confirmed by the fbi) and completely unbelievable given the facts that have come out and the dramatic contradictions already within the "official story". your points can be summed up in the following video.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...r_embedded

in response to the few arguements that you have made, which i find wholey unconvincing i post the following for you and anyone reading this to watch. it details this style of misinformation perpetrated by those such as mr. ufo and furthermore articulates point by point the reasons a real investigation is needed regarding the events of 911. i hope those that find this thread interesting take the time to explore the many links posted and decide for themselves as the consequences of what may be the real truth are quite devastating to our personal libeties and freedom to live. an attack by our government on its own people is an act of treason. its not a tv show to forget about its happening right here in our own country and its real. its happening in many other countries right now and will happen here again if people choose to be ignorant of the truth. there are hundreds of thousands of people who see this clearly as a review of the information is mind bogglingly clear as to the deception perpetrated by the media and our own government. u must realize that most all the media outlets are owned by a very few and very wealthy group of people and there would not be thousands of well respected professionals coming forward on this if it were just some wild nut case theory. there is much validity that demands further inspection and action.

please watch the following mr. ufo and others as it addresses the arguements made by mr. ufo and other dedicated debunkers who wish to obscure the truth in a cloud of confusion and misinformation.

this is a 9 part lecture regarding many of the issues raised on the 911 debate. i believe this lecture articulates many of the points much better than i could do in my own writing, and at this point i am simply repeating the main arguements that i have already written about and provided documentation for.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...bY5_qtz83M
http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related
http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related
http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related
http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related
http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related
http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related
http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related
http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related

an uniformed populus is a populus in slavery - george washington

TrevorAyer said:

Answer these questions:

1. Did I show you photos of the plane wreckage in the pentagon? I included them in the post, so you don't have to click a link.

2. What does a photo of a worker cutting the steel beam after the collapse mean?

as u have posted mere seconds after i posted my links u clearly did not review the videos posted in response ... please do so your answers/response is contained within ...

and u still havent answered MOST of my questions/ points
[Edited 12/7/09 12:46pm]

TrevorAyer said:

answer the two questions. Why can't you?

Vice versa, ask me one question, I'll answer it. Just ask me one detailed question about one of your points that you believe in.

We have to do this one point at a time. I already addressed two of your point clearly.

TrevorAyer said: