beachy said:

wildgolden no I wasn't saying that the tear on the avatar was because of vanity. I just noticed that it was like the tear on the woman from WDC. That's an interesting detail though that the date was right after he saw a doctor so thanks for that. Maybe indeed it was bad news. Anyway this is a speculative thread, and should be taken as such.

.

Is this notion that he met a new secret woman in 2007 just your idea or do you have any evidence or info to back it up? That's almost 9 yr ago and starting in 2007 he was with Bria for 3 yr although I have a hard time with that relationship it doesnt feel like there was any real chemistry and i wonder whether it was a 'contract' and not real.

[Edited 5/30/16 5:32am]

Ballad of Dorothy Parker talks about a waitress. Who played a waitress in PR? wasn' it Jill Jones? The woman whoever she is propped up his ego and never pressured him for 'more'.

[Edited 5/30/16 5:34am]

SunnyGirl8 said:

purplegirl00 said:

SAY WHAT! I wonder if those people at the press conference got that one. Here are the lyrics for Dance 4 Me in case anyone is wondering..

.

Eye like it when you dance cuz it gets me hot
Eye like it when you shake everything you got
Eye like it when you dance cuz it's so sexy
Eye like it when you dance 4 me

Eye like it when you think eye'm all alone
Ur the voice eye hear from the telephone
Tellin me all ur deepest fantasies
Eye like it when you dance 4 me...hallelujah

Eye like it when eye hear a knock
On my door
U r standing there in ur christian dior
Dark sunglasses in the pale moonlight
Eye like it when the scene is right
U can take ur wrap and lay it on the chair
If anybody finds it eye don't care
What we do 2gether makes history
Eye like it when you dance 4 me
Hallelujah

Ur flamenco eyes r all like jazz
With every other sip of what's in ur glass
The sexier you get
The more ur in2 my stash
Eye like it when you dance for me
Hallelujah

(dance... dance 4 me... dance... dance 4 me)

[Chorus x2]

Dance... dance... eye like it when you dance 4 me

[Edited 5/29/16 20:09pm]

[Edited 5/29/16 20:11pm]

And it was recorded 2008-early 2009

Ok, the first thing i thought of was how Denise always said HALLELUJAH in her interviews..next to ''Praise Jesus'' it was her favorite thing to say!!! Look at the clip below she says it several times, even in the christian radio interviews.........that was her word

.

Seriously, who else talks like that???????

.

[Edited 5/30/16 6:50am]

[Edited 5/30/16 6:55am]

Good catch Genius!

Sunny are you saying Prince was talking to the mirror when he did Cream? e encouraging her in her career, at a time she might have been low after Action Jackson and her 3rd album getting pulled.

.

Any other thoughts on Chelsea Rodgers and who she is? The models he dated besides Vanity (who was never catwalk) are Nona and who else?

Here is a clip where she says hellalujah.....

.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=vanity+interviews&&view=detail&mid=0C9903E947742CD2F34A0C9903E947742CD2F34A&FORM

=VRDGAR

He says in the song Dance 4 me.......... ''the sexier you get, the more ur in 2 my stash''

.

What stash is that? Just curious...more and more i think they had some of the same excesses, the same problems???

wizardtelly said:

Hey friends, I found this brilliant video of Denise preaching and giving her testimony. Within the first five minutes, my heart has broken. https://vimeo.com/52010783 She was brutally abused, she veers off into other things but I'm not finished watching yet. At 18:50, she brings up Prince. "I left Prince so I could find the Prince of peace" and that in itself was the longest journey for her, I think her leaving him was devastating, but something that she had to do in order to hit the rock bottom that she did only to be saved by the glory she desperately was seeking in the first place.

i've seen that one, its good...

.

Now, more and more, seeing the way she was, the way she looked the last 20 years of her life...it makes me wonder why he wrote sexy songs about her??? She was so far from that in her later years...i wonder if she knew, if she cared and if she was embarassed by it at all..or possibly flattered since she said she wanted to see him again in the mid 2000's....she became pretty conservative, always covered up..nothing sexual about her anymore, so i wonder why he still saw her that way???

..

[Edited 5/30/16 7:39am]

GeniusLuv said:

wizardtelly said:

Hey friends, I found this brilliant video of Denise preaching and giving her testimony. Within the first five minutes, my heart has broken. https://vimeo.com/52010783 She was brutally abused, she veers off into other things but I'm not finished watching yet. At 18:50, she brings up Prince. "I left Prince so I could find the Prince of peace" and that in itself was the longest journey for her, I think her leaving him was devastating, but something that she had to do in order to hit the rock bottom that she did only to be saved by the glory she desperately was seeking in the first place.

i've seen that one, its good...

.

Now, more and more, seeing the way she was, the way she looked the last 20 years of her life...it makes me wonder why he wrote sexy songs about her??? She was so far from that in her later years...i wonder if she knew, if she cared and if she was embarassed by it at all..she became pretty conservative, always covered up..nothing sexual about her anymore.

Prince lost his sexy too. Always thought it was a pity, for both. Neither seemed to be able to be sexy without engaging in excessive behavior or destructive thought patterns.

I'm looking at the video Holy River from 2007 which he made out of the video from Empty Room.

He's clearly talking about Denise here.

http://www.videodetective.com/music/the-holy-river/126869

notice the eye at 00:26 and the end of the video, it is inside what looks like (clears throat) intimate female anatomy.

GeniusLuv said:

All so true

GeniusLuv said:

GeniusLuv said:

SunnyGirl8 said:

And it was recorded 2008-early 2009

Ok, the first thing i thought of was how Denise always said HALLELUJAH in her interviews..next to ''Praise Jesus'' it was her favorite thing to say!!! Look at the clip below she says it several times, even in the christian radio interviews.........that was her word

.

Seriously, who else talks like that???????

.

[Edited 5/30/16 6:50am]

[Edited 5/30/16 6:55am]

[Edited 5/30/16 10:30am]

wizardtelly said:

Does anyone have any word if any of this is true on Denise? : http://www.jaynedoll.pwp....anity.html

i believe a lot of that is true. She was a very damaged girl when she met Prince, and brought a lot of her sadness, craziness and drug use into thta relationship..and like Nikki said he pretty much had seen it all, done it all and knew people who had done worse and Vanity was the craziest he said!!!!Denise admitted a lot of that stuff once she found God..always said she was ''a true mess..'' and very self destructive.

.

I believe the reason she hung on to her love for Prince over the many many years of her life after him was he wanted to love her, help her, give her a good life..something to be proud of..like a father would. I believe he would have stayed with her, nurtured her, help her to grow but she was too far gone at that point. She basically had to hit rock bottom before she could ever truly heal.Explains why she never went back to Prince as well, it would hae been to hard for her not to get sucked back into the debatury of it all.

.

He probably was the only real good thing that happened to her in her life, they truly loved each other and i believe him when he said that at his concert after he died..after 30 years why profess that??? They must have said that to one another i believe, later in life perhaps??? He was good to her i feel or why would she still love and respect him after all that time BUT the infidelity would have been another reason to leave as well..Prince was really just a sex fiend back then and seriously, that would crush any woman!!!!

.

.

[Edited 5/30/16 9:26am]

beachy said:

beachy said:

GeniusLuv said:

i've seen that one, its good...

.

Now, more and more, seeing the way she was, the way she looked the last 20 years of her life...it makes me wonder why he wrote sexy songs about her??? She was so far from that in her later years...i wonder if she knew, if she cared and if she was embarassed by it at all..she became pretty conservative, always covered up..nothing sexual about her anymore.

Prince lost his sexy too. Always thought it was a pity, for both. Neither seemed to be able to be sexy without engaging in excessive behavior or destructive thought patterns.

I'm looking at the video Holy River from 2007 which he made out of the video from Empty Room.

He's clearly talking about Denise here.

http://www.videodetective.com/music/the-holy-river/126869

notice the eye at 00:26 and the end of the video, it is inside what looks like (clears throat) intimate female anatomy.

Ok this is interesting as Empty Room is the break up song for Vanity in 1995 and as we know he used the video at the time she was getting married.

.

The Holy River song (19 Nov 1996). Prince Vault states that it's initial tracking dates are unknown, but lyrics refer to Prince proposing to Mayte, making it likely the track was recorded in late 1995/96. Wiki describes it as a song that tells the story of spiritual enlightenment and of Prince's decision to marry Mayte Garcia.

.

The lyrics to Holy River are very powerful because they clearly document what happened post Empty Room (which I'd assume is why the Empty Room's video is interspersed through it). In other words, what happened after Vanity married. On the surface, it looks like he self destructed with alcohol, futile casual sex, loneliness and he's forced to look at himself - he doesn't want many women he only wants one; finds God connection; and it ends with references to marriage.

.

All the water references - river, drowning, tears

.

He starts this with "Let's go down 2 the holy river. If we drown then we'll be delivered."

This concept of drowning ties back to a number of songs. I think it's to do with total emersion, oneness, elements of love, sexuality, purity, rejuvenation, spirituality. For eg:

1. Here (MPLSound 2009)

"I am gonna say this once then I am gonna leave this town
If you can learn 2 open ur eyes under water then you and me won't drown
Without each other I promise I'll c you on the other side
Just believe in me and trust this ride, I am so sincere right now, I just...
I just want you here, I just want you near me baby
I'm scared I'll cry and love you like crazy
I'm flying above all fears I haven't seen any tears not lately
No, I don't wanna land, not even maybe
Donny hathaway's "song 4 u" ain't the same without you here

.

2. Revelation (Hit N Run Phase II 2015)

It's all coming back to me now, like it was deep in the ocean

I'll beat me sword into a plow, and share a heavenly potion with my future queen...
Half east, half west, the truth's somewhere; lest inbetween

.

This is what makes his songwriting brilliant because he's interspersing multiple meanings. Is it about religion or a love relationship or both??

.

Now the The Holy River video - was it shot in 1997? Anyway, assuming it's released in 1997 and considering the links back to Empty Room, it would appear he's providing an update on his life - this is where I am now, these are the mistakes I've made, this is what I've learnt, this is how I've changed, these are my links with God/faith and now I'm on track with my life.

.

And now I ask you, who would be interested in hearing about that?

[Edited 5/30/16 10:52am]

[Edited 5/30/16 13:10pm]

drowning made me think of the bathing motif.

When I read the lyrics, it almost sounds like Vanity has chosen to drown in religion rather than bathe with Prince. I thought he might be explaining his choice to marry Mayte, because Vanity had chosen religion.

also some of the scenes of Prince in the clouds remind me of the cover of Lovesexy

i'm pretty sure it was shot in 1997 at least way before 2007 there are people on this site discussing it in 2005

[Edited 5/30/16 10:18am]

beachy said:

Good catch Genius!

Sunny are you saying Prince was talking to the mirror when he did Cream? e encouraging her in her career, at a time she might have been low after Action Jackson and her 3rd album getting pulled.

.

Any other thoughts on Chelsea Rodgers and who she is? The models he dated besides Vanity (who was never catwalk) are Nona and who else?

This is the Cream reference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGUlGFTLoOs

Haven't looked into Chelsea Rodgers yet - it is linked to Somewhere Here on Earth though. I'll have to come back to you.

Prince & Vanity: Talking Through Mirrors - The Meaning of Mirrors in Prince’s work (Denise Matthews/Vanity)

This thread was started by and large because of the dedication made by Prince to Vanity/Denise Matthews in Melbourne when she died. Amongst other things he stated at the time, he also dedicated the following songs to her - Little Red Corvette, Dirty Mind, The Ladder, The Beautiful Ones and Adore. This raised suspicions as to her role in his life as many of these songs are over 30 years old and Adore, in particular, is a ‘declaration of love’ song.

Many things have been discussed here.

What has been uncovered is her significance to his creative work, she would appear to be his muse. That does not necessarily imply that there was a traditional relationship happening. That also does not detract from many other significant themes he may discuss in his work like religion or for that matter, any of his publicly expressed private beliefs to do with spirituality.

For anyone who’s been trying to understand how Prince was communicating to/about Vanity/Denise through his art, it would appear whenever you see a mirror or hear him talk about a mirror he is talking about her.

This aligns with the widely circulated story in the press that the mirror theme also ties to Vanity’s name:
“At the suggestion of Prince, she changed her name to Vanity, she says, because she was a mirror in which he saw reflections of himself.” Ebony, November 1987
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=u8wDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA168&redir_esc=y&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

The “mirror” appears repeatedly through his work and the examples we’ve uncovered here are:

1984 - When Doves Cry - He sings while directly looking into the mirror “How could you just leave me standing, alone in a world that’s so cold?” then “Why do we scream at other? This is what it sounds like when doves cry”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFxI61jTYJY

1991 - Cream, Diamonds & Pearls - In 2004 during an MTV special called Prince:The Art of Musicology taped at New York’s Webster Hall, he performs Cream and playfully stops at one point to comment “You know I wrote this while I was looking in the mirror right?”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGUlGFTLoOs

1991 - Diamonds & Pearls, Diamonds & Pearls - There is a female dancer in the mirror.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VKJIdmL1VU

Late 1994/March 1995 - Empty Room, (No studio version of track released) - In the video, Prince will not look into the mirror. This was aired during the UK tour in March 1995, which coincides with Denise’s marriage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3DlEmXkIss

1999 - Hot With U (Nasty Girl Remix) - There’s no mirror in this video but Vanity’s image is used throughout which is unsurprising as it’s using the Nasty Girl remix. There are references to Pretty Mess Video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aIq1zxXqU

2007 - Somewhere Here On Earth, Planet Earth - Woman in Mirror who is dressed in clothing similar to Vanity’s Skin On Skin album cover appears throughout the video. This is probably the most striking alignment to Vanity/Denise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAluL631Ygk

(Note: On Vanity's Skin on Skin cover she's looking into a hand held mirror also.)

2009 - Dance With U, MPLSound - Interview with French press, Hotel Costes Press Conference, Oct 12 2009, Paris: He’s asked whether he was thinking about someone special when he wrote the song Dance for Me on MPLSound album and he says "I was looking in the mirror when I wrote it." (6:45)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BizpQz9L1

Prince’s work is multi-dimensional and very complex. There are many other cross references musically, visually and lyrically to be explored.

As mentioned previously, the more I look at the whole thread and differing opinions on here it leads to one clear conclusion, if you really you want to get to the bottom of what he felt and thought, look at what he's writing and singing about. He's telling you what he thinks. And he's telling you in a really clever way with all these layered nuances of symbolism and language. He totally exploits every art form he touches to give you a full multi-dimensional story. And he was a master at conveying his emotions and feelings through music. Why do you think that all of you feel so much for him? It's not just about how he looked.

Thanks to all of you on the thread for helping to uncover this! No offence intended.

If you are interested in the theories I proposed to do with the song Adore and Vanity, Prince and Nikki Sixx in 1986/87, please refer to (Reply#1107 Pg37 ).

[Edited 5/31/16 4:58am]

SunnyGirl8 said:

GeniusLuv said:

beachy said:

GeniusLuv said:

i've seen that one, its good...

.

Now, more and more, seeing the way she was, the way she looked the last 20 years of her life...it makes me wonder why he wrote sexy songs about her??? She was so far from that in her later years...i wonder if she knew, if she cared and if she was embarassed by it at all..she became pretty conservative, always covered up..nothing sexual about her anymore.

Prince lost his sexy too. Always thought it was a pity, for both. Neither seemed to be able to be sexy without engaging in excessive behavior or destructive thought patterns.

I'm looking at the video Holy River from 2007 which he made out of the video from Empty Room.

He's clearly talking about Denise here.

http://www.videodetective.com/music/the-holy-river/126869

notice the eye at 00:26 and the end of the video, it is inside what looks like (clears throat) intimate female anatomy.

Prince was always handsome but the melt-your-panties-off-with-a-look-sexy was gone imo a few years back 2014. I really loved his recent passport pic it was epic! so pretty , so Prince but not sexy

[Edited 5/30/16 12:09pm]

Thanks! I never saw the Hot Wit U video before.

.

Why did he do a Nasty Girl Remix???

.

Especially, at that particular time---any guesses?

leftcoast said:

GeniusLuv said:

i believe a lot of that is true. She was a very damaged girl when she met Prince, and brought a lot of her sadness, craziness and drug use into thta relationship..and like Nikki said he pretty much had seen it all, done it all and knew people who had done worse and Vanity was the craziest he said!!!!Denise admitted a lot of that stuff once she found God..always said she was ''a true mess..'' and very self destructive.

.

I believe the reason she hung on to her love for Prince over the many many years of her life after him was he wanted to love her, help her, give her a good life..something to be proud of..like a father would. I believe he would have stayed with her, nurtured her, help her to grow but she was too far gone at that point. She basically had to hit rock bottom before she could ever truly heal.Explains why she never went back to Prince as well, it would hae been to hard for her not to get sucked back into the debatury of it all.

.

He probably was the only real good thing that happened to her in her life, they truly loved each other and i believe him when he said that at his concert after he died..after 30 years why profess that??? They must have said that to one another i believe, later in life perhaps??? He was good to her i feel or why would she still love and respect him after all that time BUT the infidelity would have been another reason to leave as well..Prince was really just a sex fiend back then and seriously, that would crush any woman!!!!

.

.

[Edited 5/30/16 9:26am]

Did she really become a prostitute to support her drug habit? Did she mention this in her preaching?

No, i've never heard that!!! Ever! It doesn't fit, she was constantly working, making money..getting royalties. The only time she had money issues that i have read is when she was in the hospital, sick and/or dying but by then she stopped all that drug stuff.

beachy said:

Good catch Genius!

Sunny are you saying Prince was talking to the mirror when he did Cream? e encouraging her in her career, at a time she might have been low after Action Jackson and her 3rd album getting pulled.

.

Any other thoughts on Chelsea Rodgers and who she is? The models he dated besides Vanity (who was never catwalk) are Nona and who else?

He essentially made the same comment about Cream as he later made about Dance 4 Me. It's up to you how you want to interpret it. I don't know what was going on in her career at that point.

GeniusLuv said:

He says in the song Dance 4 me.......... ''the sexier you get, the more ur in 2 my stash''

.

What stash is that? Just curious...more and more i think they had some of the same excesses, the same problems???

It might mean "stash" as in 'goods'

GeniusLuv said:

Thanks! I never saw the Hot Wit U video before.

.

Why did he do a Nasty Girl Remix???

.

Especially, at that particular time---any guesses?

I don't know enough about the ins and outs of his timescale. I can tell you that Hot Wit U was recorded early 1999 and released 9 Nov 1999 on the Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic album (PrinceVault)