Hudson said:

mjscarousal said:

I agree with you but that fool had the nerve to say that all those artists sold less than Beyonce after 93, and thats bullshit.

Not trying to throw them under the bus, you've been putting so much emphasis on diamond albums. I do believe they are legends with better music and legacies but their biggest success was 79-93.





HiStory (7x Platinum) The exception to what I said, outstanding achievement though it was a double disc so maybe each sale counted as two?
Invincible (2x Platinum)

The Velvet Rope (3x Platinum)

All For You (3x Platinum)

My Love Is Your Love (4x Platinum) 2.8 million sold

Bedtime Stories (3x Platinum) 2.5 million sold
Ray Of Light (4x Platinum)

Music (3x Platinum)

Beyonce vs. Rihanna

Dangerously in Love 5 million __________ Music of the Sun 0.6 million
B'day 3.4 million __________ A Girl Like Me 1.4 million

IASF 3.2 million __________ Good Girl Gone Bad 2.8 million

4 1.5 million __________ Rated R 1.1 million

Beyonce 2.3 million __________ Loud 1.8 million

Lemonade 1.5 million __________ Talk That Talk 1.1 million

__________ Unapologetic 1.2 million

__________ Anti 0.5 million (not including the million that Samsung bought and gave away for free)





Beyonce 16.9 million __________ Rihanna 10.5 million





Rihanna has not sold more despite releasing more.

edit for spacing

[Edited 12/16/16 22:02pm]

You are throwing them under the bus just to defend Beyonce and you have done this in every single thread in which I debated with you on Beyonce, its pathetic and its tacky at this point. You can like Beyonce and all that but it doesn't change the fact that she is not a legend or icon nor does it justfiy concrete receipts.

Now why are you mentioning Janet's figures? I specifically only referenced her peak album, the Janet album when I said that her biggest peak album was much bigger than Beyonces so called biggest selling album and IT WAS. Its almost as if you mention certain figures just to spite legends in order to defend Beyonce. Janet's never updates her certifications and VR should really be at 4 million. However, that is neither here or there, it sold 10 million ww.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Velvet_Rope

All4U also sold 7 million ww.

To be clear, I never said that all of their albums were diamond. HOWEVER, all of these legends have at least one diamond album OR an album that has sold over 20 million world wide, Beyonce has neither. In regards to Michael specifically, all of Michael's album sold more than Beyonce and THEY have. Prince and Janet highest peak albums outsold Beyonce Dangerously in Love.

Prince, Purple Rain sold 15 million ww, its sold 13 million in the US alone

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_Rain_(album)

Janets, Janet album sold 7 million in usa but over 20 million ww even estimated at 30 million (Janet doesnt update certifications)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_(album)

So their peaks were BIGGER than Beyonces that was the only point I was making with them.

Its funny that for VR, HIStory and Invincible you chose to only count their US sales instead of their WW figures BUT your quick to always exaggerate Beyonces figures giving you a MAJOR side eye on that.

HIStory has sold 20 million units ww... its sold about 7 million in the US and it STILL OUTSOLD Beyonce's highest album in the US alone! That is not even counting the WW figures BUT this is the washed up after 93 MJ that you keep running your mouth about

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIStory:_Past,_Present_and_Future,_Book_I

Figures for Invincible, it sold 2 mill in US. However, it has sold over a 10 milion ww but RIAA has not upated the certifications and it ihas sold more since Michael's passing, also too (very important to note) Invincible went platinum and multi platinum in global markets that Beyonce has never even went platinum, let alone multiplatinum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_(Michael_Jackson_album)

The same pattern goes for the rest of the other artists mentioned, there ww figures for each of those albums old sold Dangerously in Love

The figures I counted for Rihanna has her at 34 ww figures but I dont know if I trust that because they incorporate streams in her sales. However, when you add her single sells that is in the large chart if you scroll down she has out sold Beyonce, I don't feel like counting all of it, she has a lot of singles that sold a lot. She has receipts to back up those figures. She has 14 number ones so thats not hard to believe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rihanna_discography

mnbvc said:

mjscarousal said:

I still dont see how she is so powerful. The industry and media are kissing her ass and showering her with awards undeservingly despite her poor statistics. Someone like Madonna on the other hand STASTICALLY proved and continues to prove that is she is POWERFUL and force to be reckoned. I dont see how Beyonce is this powerful figure when she has low number ones, low album sales, low ratings, her tours are not any better than her peers, she has no classics, nothing memorable or innovative. She is the industrys token Black girl... and I dont think that automatically makes one powerful. If anything, she has it so easy. Adele IMO is an artist and force that is powerful and shows that statistically. Magazine publications and post all day long that someone is powerful but if statistically it does not show it, its FALSE.

When it's all said and done, if Adele has another big album, and there's really no reason to believe she won't, she's going to end up easily selling over 100 million albums and in terms of sales she'll easily be in that category with Celine Dion, Barbra Streisand and Whitney Houston.

At this point Beyonce is pretty much a lock for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I do think her talent is overrated as hell though. Outside of her vocal ability, she's cannot be more talented than Britney Spears. Spears composed one of the most popular pop ballads of the 2000s, I've seen her play it on the piano, and she has other unreleased ballads that she has composed that I've heard. I haven't seen any evidence that Beyonce has written songs. Maybe she has, but her songwriting is not more impressive than Spears. She's arguably a better performer than Spears since she tries to dance while sing but her dancing is nothing compared to the Jacksons.

There is even some talk about Rihanna possibly being a future Rock and Roll Hall of Fame member. I personally don't think that Beyonce, Britney, or Rihanna should be in but Spears at her peak clearly obliterates Rihanna as an entertainer.

[Edited 12/17/16 1:53am]

[Edited 12/17/16 1:53am]

THANKYOU, she is not more talented than Britney, I view them the same in terms of talent although I personally prefer Britney as a performer in her prime and her team produce better music.

But I dont understand what the establishment see's in Beyonce? What is so great about her? Why does the industry love her so much, I don't get it?? HELP ME to understand And man o man hun you need to come post on this side more, you talking intelligent! I love it

Also to the last bolded, Beyonce mimes way more than she gets credit for and I have never been impressed with her dancing. She can't dance at all to me. Also I want to quicky comment on the Adele comment, I AGREE with you, Adele is going to have another big selling album and SHE will be up there with Whitney, Celine, etc. The thing I dont understand about Beyonce is this.....SHE HAS NO RECEIPTS....NONE but the establishment still lies on her behalf when its quite clear the public ain't feeling her. I AGREE, Beyonce, Rihanna OR even Britney do not deserve to be in the RHOF! BUT if Greenday is in the RHOF this is the reality we are potentially dealing with. JUST like before its all said and done Beyonce will have the most Grammys of all time, now does she deserve to have all those Grammys? NO she does not BUT the establishment wants to give her all these awards and nominations All these things are NO indicator of legend status or icon status, if anything it proves even more she is overrrated.

[Edited 12/17/16 2:42am]

[Edited 12/17/16 2:49am]

MotownSubdivision said:

mjscarousal said:

No she is not.

And I can give receipts that prove she is not this powerful figure in music.

Girl, you know as well as I do that Beyonce has the machine behind her more than any other star in history which is why the media incessantly kisses her asss and paints her as this perfect entity who is the first to do things she isn't the first to do (like displaying feminism in her music). That is the power she wields.

I AGREE, this is what I think, its not something that she has earned but something given to her through media and industry politics but why do you think the establishing is behind her???? What does she have that other Black artists before her didn't? I think its because she does what she is told to do and doesn't step out of line which is why when people say she takes risks, I am like where? She is safe.

mjscarousal said:

mnbvc said:

When it's all said and done, if Adele has another big album, and there's really no reason to believe she won't, she's going to end up easily selling over 100 million albums and in terms of sales she'll easily be in that category with Celine Dion, Barbra Streisand and Whitney Houston.

At this point Beyonce is pretty much a lock for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I do think her talent is overrated as hell though. Outside of her vocal ability, she's cannot be more talented than Britney Spears. Spears composed one of the most popular pop ballads of the 2000s, I've seen her play it on the piano, and she has other unreleased ballads that she has composed that I've heard. I haven't seen any evidence that Beyonce has written songs. Maybe she has, but her songwriting is not more impressive than Spears. She's arguably a better performer than Spears since she tries to dance while sing but her dancing is nothing compared to the Jacksons.

There is even some talk about Rihanna possibly being a future Rock and Roll Hall of Fame member. I personally don't think that Beyonce, Britney, or Rihanna should be in but Spears at her peak clearly obliterates Rihanna as an entertainer.

[Edited 12/17/16 1:53am]

[Edited 12/17/16 1:53am]

But....WHY though? What is so great about her? Why does the industry love her so much, I don't get it?? HELP ME to understand And man o man hun you need to come post on this side more, you talking intelligent! I love it

I simply think it has to do with her contemporaries and her race. The other big names do not seem to put on exciting or anticpiated performances like she does. The only big name that did was definately a peak Britney Spears (and to some extent Lady Gaga).

As a black guy, it is disgusting the way the media rushes to defend Beyonce for people justly questioning her songwriting abilities and say it's racist but throw Britney Spears under the bus. I essentially used to hate/dismiss Britney Spears because of being constantly being fed the narrative that she's untalented but, in retrospect, like I said, there is more evidence that Britney Spears has written music than Beyonce. She composed one of the more popular pop ballads of the 2000s and I've seen her playing it on the piano while she also has other under-the-radar released/unreleased piano ballads that she wrote. I think she's classy for not saying taking any credit for many songs or making a big deal about her unreleased material which she wrote. The only thing Beyonce crushes Spears in is in vocal ability (And her current terrible performing. So regardless of the circumstances, she beats Spears in longevity) But while her peak was short, she is the most controversal female artist of her generation, as well as this current generation. (So while she's not at all as great as they are, her antecedents are a combination of Janet Jackson and Madonna and the disgusting media should learn how to appropriately acknowledge the former's influence as it's all over Spears' most popular music videos)

I think Beyonce is a very hard worker at what she does and deserves credit for that but she's not alone. It's her mediocre mainstream contemporaries that make Beyonce look great.

mnbvc said:

mjscarousal said:

But....WHY though? What is so great about her? Why does the industry love her so much, I don't get it?? HELP ME to understand And man o man hun you need to come post on this side more, you talking intelligent! I love it

I simply think it has to do with her contemporaries and her race. The other big names do not seem to put on exciting or anticpiated performances like she does. The only big name that did was definately a peak Britney Spears (and to some extent Lady Gaga).

As a black guy, it is disgusting the way the media rushes to defend Beyonce for people justly questioning her songwriting abilities and say it's racist but throw Britney Spears under the bus. I essentially used to hate/dismiss Britney Spears because of being constantly being fed the narrative that she's untalented but, in retrospect, like I said, there is more evidence that Britney Spears has written music than Beyonce. She composed one of the more popular pop ballads of the 2000s and I've seen her playing it on the piano while she also has other under-the-radar released/unreleased piano ballads that she wrote. I think she's classy for not saying taking any credit for many songs or making a big deal about her unreleased material which she wrote. The only thing Beyonce crushes Spears in is in vocal ability (And her current terrible performing. So regardless of the circumstances, she beats Spears in longevity) But while her peak was short, she is the most controversal female artist of her generation, as well as this current generation. (So while she's not at all as great as they are, her antecedents are a combination of Janet Jackson and Madonna and the disgusting media should learn how to appropriately acknowledge the former's influence as it's all over Spears' most popular music videos)

I think Beyonce is a very hard worker at what she does and deserves credit for that but she's not alone. It's her mediocre mainstream contemporaries that make Beyonce look great.

I would also say I don't want to hear about "white privilege" when it comes to Britney Spears. I didn't even realize she was performing ...Baby One More Time at shopping malls around the country and opening for NSYNC before she made it big. It also means Britney Spears, more than Max Martin, made Britney Spears successful. It wasn't until her music video, which was entirely her concept and remains the most iconic music video by a female pop star since 1998/1999, that she became a monster celebrity. It's blatant, nobody cared about that single in 1998 until that music video.

I think she probably had to be white to attain the success she achieved, but she worked as hard as anybody, and to me that last part is all that matters.

mnbvc said:

I think Beyonce is a very hard worker at what she does and deserves credit for that but she's not alone. It's her mediocre mainstream contemporaries that make Beyonce look great.

That is really all there is to say about her. She has some good songs, but not many IMO. Can't wait for her to retire to be honest.

mnbvc said:

mjscarousal said:

But....WHY though? What is so great about her? Why does the industry love her so much, I don't get it?? HELP ME to understand And man o man hun you need to come post on this side more, you talking intelligent! I love it

I simply think it has to do with her contemporaries and her race. The other big names do not seem to put on exciting or anticpiated performances like she does. The only big name that did was definately a peak Britney Spears (and to some extent Lady Gaga).

As a black guy, it is disgusting the way the media rushes to defend Beyonce for people justly questioning her songwriting abilities and say it's racist but throw Britney Spears under the bus. I essentially used to hate/dismiss Britney Spears because of being constantly being fed the narrative that she's untalented but, in retrospect, like I said, there is more evidence that Britney Spears has written music than Beyonce. She composed one of the more popular pop ballads of the 2000s and I've seen her playing it on the piano while she also has other under-the-radar released/unreleased piano ballads that she wrote. I think she's classy for not saying taking any credit for many songs or making a big deal about her unreleased material which she wrote. The only thing Beyonce crushes Spears in is in vocal ability (And her current terrible performing. So regardless of the circumstances, she beats Spears in longevity) But while her peak was short, she is the most controversal female artist of her generation, as well as this current generation. (So while she's not at all as great as they are, her antecedents are a combination of Janet Jackson and Madonna and the disgusting media should learn how to appropriately acknowledge the former's influence as it's all over Spears' most popular music videos)

I think Beyonce is a very hard worker at what she does and deserves credit for that but she's not alone. It's her mediocre mainstream contemporaries that make Beyonce look great.

I have said for the longest that Beyonce largely benefits from tokenism and from being the token Black girl. You must be reading my mind because in another thread I also mentioned how the media are quick to throw her white contemporaries under the bus ( i.e Britney and Lady Gaga) for their lack of songwriting but are quick to defend Beyonce when she doesn't write any of her music. I actually defend Britney because I feel she has gotten a bad rep and the industry threw her up, spit it her out and shitted on her and she is a very humble and down to earth woman. Its wrong how people currently mock her despite her mental health. She is one of the biggest selling artists of all time and people can talk shit about her but she has the receipts to back up her status during her peak don't care what no one says.

Can you explain the bolded paragraph? I got lost with who you were referring too. Beyonce is very mediocre herself, there seems to be something else as to why she so excessively pushed. Her music is no more better than her peers and her performances are very average to me. I also never understood how people call her hardworking in terms of artistry when she comes out with the same formulac and bland music. She has never written any music herself or really made a creative piece of work that was not PR driven or had some type of gimmick attach. She is very lazy in that area IMHO. If she is a hard worker it is as a performer but....thats it. There are more hardworking artists and there are just as hard working performers too (i.e. Bruno Mars). She is not the ONLY one.

[Edited 12/18/16 14:48pm]

funkaholic1972 said:

mnbvc said:

I think Beyonce is a very hard worker at what she does and deserves credit for that but she's not alone. It's her mediocre mainstream contemporaries that make Beyonce look great.

That is really all there is to say about her. She has some good songs, but not many IMO. Can't wait for her to retire to be honest.

Same I am sick and tired of her. She is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo overrated.

mnbvc said:

mnbvc said:

I simply think it has to do with her contemporaries and her race. The other big names do not seem to put on exciting or anticpiated performances like she does. The only big name that did was definately a peak Britney Spears (and to some extent Lady Gaga).

As a black guy, it is disgusting the way the media rushes to defend Beyonce for people justly questioning her songwriting abilities and say it's racist but throw Britney Spears under the bus. I essentially used to hate/dismiss Britney Spears because of being constantly being fed the narrative that she's untalented but, in retrospect, like I said, there is more evidence that Britney Spears has written music than Beyonce. She composed one of the more popular pop ballads of the 2000s and I've seen her playing it on the piano while she also has other under-the-radar released/unreleased piano ballads that she wrote. I think she's classy for not saying taking any credit for many songs or making a big deal about her unreleased material which she wrote. The only thing Beyonce crushes Spears in is in vocal ability (And her current terrible performing. So regardless of the circumstances, she beats Spears in longevity) But while her peak was short, she is the most controversal female artist of her generation, as well as this current generation. (So while she's not at all as great as they are, her antecedents are a combination of Janet Jackson and Madonna and the disgusting media should learn how to appropriately acknowledge the former's influence as it's all over Spears' most popular music videos)

I think Beyonce is a very hard worker at what she does and deserves credit for that but she's not alone. It's her mediocre mainstream contemporaries that make Beyonce look great.

I would also say I don't want to hear about "white privilege" when it comes to Britney Spears. I didn't even realize she was performing ...Baby One More Time at shopping malls around the country and opening for NSYNC before she made it big. It also means Britney Spears, more than Max Martin, made Britney Spears successful. It wasn't until her music video, which was entirely her concept and remains the most iconic music video by a female pop star since 1998/1999, that she became a monster celebrity. It's blatant, nobody cared about that single in 1998 until that music video.

I think she probably had to be white to attain the success she achieved, but she worked as hard as anybody, and to me that last part is all that matters.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

SPEAK THE TRUTH! I hope these sheep don't scare you away!!!!! :lol:We truth speakers gotta stick together!

The way they trashed Britney Spears when she had her break down, the establishment was ready to take her down, they were not going to protect her. Britney was never backed by the establishment the way Beyonce is, now THAT is priveledge IMO and your also right Britney greatly benefited from the MTV video era and her superstardom is largely based on that. I also hate how people try to say she wasn't a hard worker and she was lazy when that is not true at all! Britney was very hardworking in her prime but of course she is medicated and has a mental health condition NOW so she of course is not going to perform the same she did during her prime but when it comes to Britney I notice people hold her current health issues against her and define her entire career on it and that is SOOO unfair.

mjscarousal said:

mnbvc said:

I simply think it has to do with her contemporaries and her race. The other big names do not seem to put on exciting or anticpiated performances like she does. The only big name that did was definately a peak Britney Spears (and to some extent Lady Gaga).

As a black guy, it is disgusting the way the media rushes to defend Beyonce for people justly questioning her songwriting abilities and say it's racist but throw Britney Spears under the bus. I essentially used to hate/dismiss Britney Spears because of being constantly being fed the narrative that she's untalented but, in retrospect, like I said, there is more evidence that Britney Spears has written music than Beyonce. She composed one of the more popular pop ballads of the 2000s and I've seen her playing it on the piano while she also has other under-the-radar released/unreleased piano ballads that she wrote. I think she's classy for not saying taking any credit for many songs or making a big deal about her unreleased material which she wrote. The only thing Beyonce crushes Spears in is in vocal ability (And her current terrible performing. So regardless of the circumstances, she beats Spears in longevity) But while her peak was short, she is the most controversal female artist of her generation, as well as this current generation. (So while she's not at all as great as they are, her antecedents are a combination of Janet Jackson and Madonna and the disgusting media should learn how to appropriately acknowledge the former's influence as it's all over Spears' most popular music videos)

I think Beyonce is a very hard worker at what she does and deserves credit for that but she's not alone. It's her mediocre mainstream contemporaries that make Beyonce look great.

I have said for the longest that Beyonce largely benefits from tokenism and from being the token Black girl. You must be reading my mind because in another thread I also mentioned how the media are quick to throw her white contemporaries under the bus ( i.e Britney and Lady Gaga) for their lack of songwriting but are quick to defend Beyonce when she doesn't write any of her music. I actually defend Britney because I feel she has gotten a bad rep and the industry threw her up, spit it her out and shitted on her and she is a very humble and down to earth woman. Its wrong how people currently mock her despite her mental health. She is one of the biggest selling artists of all time and people can talk shit about her but she has the receipts to back up her status during her peak don't care what no one says.

Can you explain the bolded paragraph? I got lost with who you were referring too. Beyonce is very mediocre herself, there seems to be something else as to why she so excessively pushed. Her music is no more better than her peers and her performances are very average to me. I also never understood how people call her hardworking in terms of artistry when she comes out with the same formulac and bland music. She has never written any music herself or really made a creative piece of work that was not PR driven or had some type of gimmick attach. She is very lazy in that area IMHO. If she is a hard worker it is as a performer but....thats it. There are more hardworking artists and there are just as hard working performers too (i.e. Bruno Mars). She is not the ONLY one.

[Edited 12/17/16 4:18am]

I meant that Spears is probably the most controversal/provocative female artist since Madonna. But she's a combination of both Janet Jackson and Madonna while not being as great as either. (I do think though that neither Jackson or Madonna could do some of the gymnastic stunts as well as Spears) Yes, Spears one of the 10 biggest female album sellers of all-time and Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Rihanna, Lady Gaga are highly unlikely to get to those sales because they've got a long, long way to go. And yes, she clearly came at the right time and benefited from the teen pop phenomenon that the Spice Girls, Backstreet Boys and NSYNC paved the way for her and which she also influenced with Christina Aguilera, Mandy Moore and Jessica Simpson. But she still had a more limited demographic appeal compared to Madonna, Mariah Carey, Celine Dion and Whitney Houston. (And her music videos made those sales) So her sales and star power really do show why she's the "Queen of Teen". The wide appeal, of course, is why Adele will end up being one of the five biggest female album sellers of all time.

I think that outside of her vocals Beyonce is mostly unimpressive. The big difference between a Beyonce and Whitney Houston besides Houston being a greater singer is how substantially influential Houston was. Generation(s) of successful female artists were inspired to sing and enter the industry because of Houston (Mariah Carey, Celine Dion, Brandy, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, Beyonce Knwoles, P!nk, Kelly Clarkson Jennifer Hudson) That type of diverse impact will simply not happen with Beyonce.

I think that Beyonce has tremendous stage presence, however, one that dwarfs everyone today but that does not at all exceed Britney Spears in her prime. When Spears walked on stage with Michael Jackson, the most charismatic pop star of all time in 2001, she looked like she belonged there despite her lackluster vocals. She looked just as compelling to look at as Michael Jackson during that performance and she wasn't even 20 years old.

[Edited 12/17/16 8:13am]

[Edited 12/17/16 8:39am]

mjscarousal said:

mnbvc said:

I would also say I don't want to hear about "white privilege" when it comes to Britney Spears. I didn't even realize she was performing ...Baby One More Time at shopping malls around the country and opening for NSYNC before she made it big. It also means Britney Spears, more than Max Martin, made Britney Spears successful. It wasn't until her music video, which was entirely her concept and remains the most iconic music video by a female pop star since 1998/1999, that she became a monster celebrity. It's blatant, nobody cared about that single in 1998 until that music video.

I think she probably had to be white to attain the success she achieved, but she worked as hard as anybody, and to me that last part is all that matters.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

SPEAK THE TRUTH! I hope these sheep don't scare you away!!!!! :lol:We truth speakers gotta stick together!

The way they trashed Britney Spears when she had her break down, the establishment was ready to take her down, they were not going to protect her. Britney was never backed by the establishment the way Beyonce is, now THAT is priveledge IMO and your also right Britney greatly benefited from the MTV video era and her superstardom is largely based on that. I also hate how people try to say she wasn't a hard worker and she was lazy when that is not true at all! Britney was very hardworking in her prime but of course she is medicated and has a mental health condition NOW so she of course is not going to perform the same she did during her prime but when it comes to Britney I notice people hold her current health issues against her and define her entire career on it and that is SOOO unfair.

And it is fair to compare Britney Spears and Beyonce because while Beyonce is a far superior vocalist, Spears has actually composed music so Beyonce cannot dwarf Spears in talent (And honestly, Spears is getting at the point of her career where I think it would be a plus if she starts to release piano ballads because I know she can do it.)

These unreleased tracks are a pretty good example:

She co-wrote both (the first with William Anderson and the second with Tom Craskey and Devo Springsteen) and it clearly shows she has a history now of writting such matieral but you don't see her going around saying "I'm talented, I've written music" to counter the false premise.

[Edited 12/17/16 9:04am]

[Edited 12/17/16 9:06am]

mnbvc said:

mjscarousal said:

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

SPEAK THE TRUTH! I hope these sheep don't scare you away!!!!! :lol:We truth speakers gotta stick together!

The way they trashed Britney Spears when she had her break down, the establishment was ready to take her down, they were not going to protect her. Britney was never backed by the establishment the way Beyonce is, now THAT is priveledge IMO and your also right Britney greatly benefited from the MTV video era and her superstardom is largely based on that. I also hate how people try to say she wasn't a hard worker and she was lazy when that is not true at all! Britney was very hardworking in her prime but of course she is medicated and has a mental health condition NOW so she of course is not going to perform the same she did during her prime but when it comes to Britney I notice people hold her current health issues against her and define her entire career on it and that is SOOO unfair.

And it is fair to compare Britney Spears and Beyonce because while Beyonce is a far superior vocalist, Spears has actually composed music so Beyonce cannot dwarf Spears in talent (And honestly, Spears is getting at the point of her career where I think it would be a plus if she starts to release piano ballads because I know she can do it.)

These unreleased tracks are a pretty good example:

She co-wrote both (the first with William Anderson and the second with Tom Craskey and Devo Springsteen) and it clearly shows she has a history now of writting such matieral but you don't see her going around saying "I'm talented, I've written music" to counter the false premise.

[Edited 12/17/16 9:04am]

[Edited 12/17/16 9:06am]

I told posters here that she co wrote some of her music but no one believed me. They called her a puppet Britney has a underrated disography imo. I agree with your entire post

mjscarousal said:

mnbvc said:

And it is fair to compare Britney Spears and Beyonce because while Beyonce is a far superior vocalist, Spears has actually composed music so Beyonce cannot dwarf Spears in talent (And honestly, Spears is getting at the point of her career where I think it would be a plus if she starts to release piano ballads because I know she can do it.)

These unreleased tracks are a pretty good example:

She co-wrote both (the first with William Anderson and the second with Tom Craskey and Devo Springsteen) and it clearly shows she has a history now of writting such matieral but you don't see her going around saying "I'm talented, I've written music" to counter the false premise.

[Edited 12/17/16 9:04am]

[Edited 12/17/16 9:06am]

I told posters here that she co wrote some of her music but no one believed me. They called her a puppet Britney has a underrated disography imo. I agree with your entire post

Better than co-writting the lyrics, she composed the music. Here's a video taken from her 2003 ABC Special briefly talking about the process of making "Everytime".

I simply do not see this with Beyonce. I hear Prince and Quincy Jones and other heap praise on Beyonce's "talents" without really seeing it (besides singing). Maybe she is talented, but outside of her vocal ability she is not more talented than Britney Spears.

[Edited 12/17/16 9:44am]

mnbvc said:

mjscarousal said:

I have said for the longest that Beyonce largely benefits from tokenism and from being the token Black girl. You must be reading my mind because in another thread I also mentioned how the media are quick to throw her white contemporaries under the bus ( i.e Britney and Lady Gaga) for their lack of songwriting but are quick to defend Beyonce when she doesn't write any of her music. I actually defend Britney because I feel she has gotten a bad rep and the industry threw her up, spit it her out and shitted on her and she is a very humble and down to earth woman. Its wrong how people currently mock her despite her mental health. She is one of the biggest selling artists of all time and people can talk shit about her but she has the receipts to back up her status during her peak don't care what no one says.

Can you explain the bolded paragraph? I got lost with who you were referring too. Beyonce is very mediocre herself, there seems to be something else as to why she so excessively pushed. Her music is no more better than her peers and her performances are very average to me. I also never understood how people call her hardworking in terms of artistry when she comes out with the same formulac and bland music. She has never written any music herself or really made a creative piece of work that was not PR driven or had some type of gimmick attach. She is very lazy in that area IMHO. If she is a hard worker it is as a performer but....thats it. There are more hardworking artists and there are just as hard working performers too (i.e. Bruno Mars). She is not the ONLY one.

[Edited 12/17/16 4:18am]

I meant that Spears is probably the most controversal/provocative female artist since Madonna. But she's a combination of both Janet Jackson and Madonna while not being as great as either. (I do think though that neither Jackson or Madonna could do some of the gymnastic stunts as well as Spears) Yes, Spears one of the 10 biggest female album sellers of all-time and Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Rihanna, Lady Gaga are highly unlikely to get to those sales because they've got a long, long way to go. And yes, she clearly came at the right time and benefited from the teen pop phenomenon that the Spice Girls, Backstreet Boys and NSYNC paved the way for her and which she also influenced with Christina Aguilera, Mandy Moore and Jessica Simpson. But she still had a more limited demographic appeal compared to Madonna, Mariah Carey, Celine Dion and Whitney Houston. (And her music videos made those sales) So her sales and star power really do show why she's the "Queen of Teen". The wide appeal, of course, is why Adele will end up being one of the five biggest female album sellers of all time.

I think that outside of her vocals Beyonce is mostly unimpressive. The big difference between a Beyonce and Whitney Houston besides Houston being a greater singer is how substantially influential Houston was. Generation(s) of successful female artists were inspired to sing and enter the industry because of Houston (Mariah Carey, Celine Dion, Brandy, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, Beyonce Knwoles, P!nk, Kelly Clarkson Jennifer Hudson) That type of diverse impact will simply not happen with Beyonce.

I think that Beyonce has tremendous stage presence, however, one that dwarfs everyone today but that does not at all exceed Britney Spears in her prime. When Spears walked on stage with Michael Jackson, the most charismatic pop star of all time in 2001, she looked like she belonged there despite her lackluster vocals. She looked just as compelling to look at as Michael Jackson during that performance and she wasn't even 20 years old.

[Edited 12/17/16 8:13am]

[Edited 12/17/16 8:39am]

Man you need to post on this side more! You make for good discussion!!! Okay a couple things I need to address. First) I actually disagree with the bolded. Janet did a back flip in the Pleasure Principle video and did more aerobatic routines compared to Britney Spears. Janet and Madonna were overall better dancers than Britney but I do agree that Britney was a far better dancer than Beyonce. Also IMO Britney had more memorable break out performances than Beyonce. I can't remember any of Beyonce performances, they all seem like a blur and the same to me but I can remember when Britney stepped out at the Vma's and when she wore the real life snake around her neck. I can remember when she wore the see thru outfit and threw her MJ hat at the VMA's. To me, Britney had more iconic and memorable moments in pop culture than Beyonce imo even with her videos. Single Ladies was big during its period but I dont' think it made more of an impact than "Hit Me Baby One More Time" and I still see this video re-did today.

I do agree that Beyonce lacks universal appeal compared to Adele. I do agree that Britney's audience is limited to a nostalgic type of audience that grew up with her but her fan base is a very dedicated one. Overall imo, I prefera prime Britney Spears over Beyonce she was the overall better package in her prime imo. She was talented, attractive, charismatic, funny, open, likable, humble, down to earth, changed her image and performances, had more catchier music, and took more musical risks and didnt play it safe.

[Edited 12/17/16 10:04am]

mnbvc said:

mjscarousal said:

I told posters here that she co wrote some of her music but no one believed me. They called her a puppet Britney has a underrated disography imo. I agree with your entire post

Better than co-writting the lyrics, she composed the music. Here's a video taken from her 2003 ABC Special briefly talking about the process of making "Everytime".

I simply do not see this with Beyonce. I hear Prince and Quincy Jones and other heap praise on Beyonce's "talents" without really seeing it (besides singing). Maybe she is talented, but outside of her vocal ability she is not more talented than Britney Spears.

[Edited 12/17/16 9:44am]

I agree with you 100% And next time someone tries to say Brit doesn't write her music I will make sure to bring these receipts FYI, Beyonce may be a better vocalist than Britney but she is not a better singer, Britney sings with more emotion. Beyonce lacks soul and personality and her tone is bland. Its hard to listen to her sing.

mjscarousal said:

mnbvc said:

I meant that Spears is probably the most controversal/provocative female artist since Madonna. But she's a combination of both Janet Jackson and Madonna while not being as great as either. (I do think though that neither Jackson or Madonna could do some of the gymnastic stunts as well as Spears) Yes, Spears one of the 10 biggest female album sellers of all-time and Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Rihanna, Lady Gaga are highly unlikely to get to those sales because they've got a long, long way to go. And yes, she clearly came at the right time and benefited from the teen pop phenomenon that the Spice Girls, Backstreet Boys and NSYNC paved the way for her and which she also influenced with Christina Aguilera, Mandy Moore and Jessica Simpson. But she still had a more limited demographic appeal compared to Madonna, Mariah Carey, Celine Dion and Whitney Houston. (And her music videos made those sales) So her sales and star power really do show why she's the "Queen of Teen". The wide appeal, of course, is why Adele will end up being one of the five biggest female album sellers of all time.

I think that outside of her vocals Beyonce is mostly unimpressive. The big difference between a Beyonce and Whitney Houston besides Houston being a greater singer is how substantially influential Houston was. Generation(s) of successful female artists were inspired to sing and enter the industry because of Houston (Mariah Carey, Celine Dion, Brandy, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, Beyonce Knwoles, P!nk, Kelly Clarkson Jennifer Hudson) That type of diverse impact will simply not happen with Beyonce.

I think that Beyonce has tremendous stage presence, however, one that dwarfs everyone today but that does not at all exceed Britney Spears in her prime. When Spears walked on stage with Michael Jackson, the most charismatic pop star of all time in 2001, she looked like she belonged there despite her lackluster vocals. She looked just as compelling to look at as Michael Jackson during that performance and she wasn't even 20 years old.

[Edited 12/17/16 8:13am]

[Edited 12/17/16 8:39am]

Man you need to post on this side more! You make for good discussion!!! Okay a couple things I need to address. First) I actually disagree with the bolded. Janet did a back flip in the Pleasure Principle video and did more aerobatic routines compared to Britney Spears. Janet and Madonna were overall better dancers than Britney but I do agree that Britney was a far better dancer than Beyonce. Also IMO Britney had more memorable break out performances than Beyonce. I can't remember any of Beyonce performances, they all seem like a blur and the same to me but I can remember when Britney stepped out at the Vma's and when she wore the real life snake around her neck. I can remember when she wore the see thru outfit and threw her MJ hat at the VMA's. To me, Britney had more iconic and memorable moments in pop culture than Beyonce imo even with her videos. Single Ladies was big during its period but I dont' think it made more of an impact than "Hit Me Baby One More Time" and I still see this video re-did today.

I do agree that Beyonce lacks universal appeal compared to Adele. I do agree that Britney's audience is limited to a nostalgic type of audience that grew up with her but her fan base is a very dedicated one. Overall imo, I prefera prime Britney Spears over Beyonce she was the overall better package in her prime imo. She was talented, attractive, charismatic, funny, open, likable, humble, down to earth, changed her image and performances, had more catchier music, and took more musical risks and didnt play it safe.

[Edited 12/17/16 10:04am]

You're right about the Pleasure Principle. My mistake. Of course Janet Jackson and Madonna are overall better dancers (they're her blueprint, afterall) but while she's not the complete package like Janet Jackson and Madonna, I definately think she's in their class in terms of aerobic routines.

But I couldn't possibly see Beyonce doing a lot of this.

"You've come a long way, baby..." Apparently not.

mnbvc said:

mjscarousal said:

Man you need to post on this side more! You make for good discussion!!! Okay a couple things I need to address. First) I actually disagree with the bolded. Janet did a back flip in the Pleasure Principle video and did more aerobatic routines compared to Britney Spears. Janet and Madonna were overall better dancers than Britney but I do agree that Britney was a far better dancer than Beyonce. Also IMO Britney had more memorable break out performances than Beyonce. I can't remember any of Beyonce performances, they all seem like a blur and the same to me but I can remember when Britney stepped out at the Vma's and when she wore the real life snake around her neck. I can remember when she wore the see thru outfit and threw her MJ hat at the VMA's. To me, Britney had more iconic and memorable moments in pop culture than Beyonce imo even with her videos. Single Ladies was big during its period but I dont' think it made more of an impact than "Hit Me Baby One More Time" and I still see this video re-did today.

I do agree that Beyonce lacks universal appeal compared to Adele. I do agree that Britney's audience is limited to a nostalgic type of audience that grew up with her but her fan base is a very dedicated one. Overall imo, I prefera prime Britney Spears over Beyonce she was the overall better package in her prime imo. She was talented, attractive, charismatic, funny, open, likable, humble, down to earth, changed her image and performances, had more catchier music, and took more musical risks and didnt play it safe.

[Edited 12/17/16 10:04am]

You're right about the Pleasure Principle. My mistake. Of course Janet Jackson and Madonna are overall better dancers (they're her blueprint, afterall) but while she's not the complete package like Janet Jackson and Madonna, I definately think she's in their class in terms of aerobic routines.

But I couldn't possibly see Beyonce doing a lot of this.

Beyonce couldn't do any of those moves because she is not a trained dancer. Britney is a trained and technical dancer and she did more complicated choregraphy. She is way past her peak now but I think this video does a good job in showing that Britney was a very good dancer in her prime. I am tired of people always trashing Britney.

She has one of the most powerful arses of the last 70 years, certainly. She could've knocked that Thatcher woman clean over. I'd've been a much bigger fan if she had, too.

deebee said:

She has one of the most powerful arses of the last 70 years, certainly. She could've knocked that Thatcher woman clean over. I'd've been a much bigger fan if she had, too.

I just can't

It's important to look at context. Historically when black artists had white artists copy their sound decades ago primarly in the US, even before motown, they were still socially acceptable in many European societies. Right now, Beyonce is that person(token), even though Drake and Rihanna are commercially more popular than her right now. They're basing it off popularity and number of years, definitely not sales numbers, and how she played Glatsonbury, Hyde Park and other prestigious events despite Rihanna selling out many dates at o2 and despite Drake breaking a record this year with a number 1 single.

I'm not saying it to say she deserves it, they needed someone non-white and Beyonce was convenient. If this was 15 years ago, they would have given it to janet jackson or whitney houston without even thinking hard about it, and especially if they had shows to push.

[Edited 12/17/16 17:18pm]

to put the quincy jones comment in perspective, he was hosting beyonce's event... of course he's gonna gush over her. beyonce benefits from the social media era, social media pretty much dictakes everything. mainstream media now takes its cue from the internet. bloggers have become very powerful and the majority of them are part of these 'stan' bases. so if social media has declared beyonce the queen of everything thats exactly what the media is gonna do.

She was the token Black girl long before the social media era so no that is not it.

alphastreet said:

It's important to look at context. Historically when black artists had white artists copy their sound decades ago primarly in the US, even before motown, they were still socially acceptable in many European societies. Right now, Beyonce is that person(token), even though Drake and Rihanna are commercially more popular than her right now. They're basing it off popularity and number of years, definitely not sales numbers, and how she played Glatsonbury, Hyde Park and other prestigious events despite Rihanna selling out many dates at o2 and despite Drake breaking a record this year with a number 1 single.

I'm not saying it to say she deserves it, they needed someone non-white and Beyonce was convenient. If this was 15 years ago, they would have given it to janet jackson or whitney houston without even thinking hard about it, and especially if they had shows to push.

[Edited 12/17/16 17:18pm]

I agree, its like reverse black face, and they have chosen Beyonce to be this representation of this, that is why when people say she has been pro Black these last two releases that is a complete bullshit lie and she is totally representing the White agenda.

@ mjcarousel

Although I can't say I know much of Britney Spears catalogue, this thread has been interesting.

The problem is that (Beyonce) she gets so much media saturation, I wonder at times if some of these "pieces" in papers, blogs, etc are just glorified press releases. Everything is so sychronized with her media machine that this all seems like a coordinated effort leading to the Grammy Awards.

We've (you and I) stated it on another thread and I would say it again: SHe is an "icon" without an iconic moment. She has broken no new ground culturally, musically, or otherwise, but is always front and center absorbing the spotlight or getting credit for things that were done (much better) by her predecessors. This newest accolade is almost par for the course for her, so nothing surprises me anymore.

[Edited 12/18/16 6:29am]

Hudson said:

mjscarousal said:

YES she is

The media compares Beyonce to Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston, Janet Jackson, Madonna, Stevie Wonder, and Prince. The media EVEN insists she has been the best artist over the last 30 years and that she sells over 100 and millions of albums.

These are LIES.

OH YES, she definitly is a flop when COMPARED to those artists, HELL she is flop when compared to her peers, USHER and BRITNEY have DIAMOND albums. They also have classics and defining albums which Beyonce does not have.

There is ALWAYS an excuse for Beyonce, its hilarious at this point.

The girl is overrated.

Yes, the media is lying about her achievements, but after 1993 none of the legends you mentioned ever had a huge album that went over 4x platinum. Dangerously in Love went 5x and Rihanna certainly hasn't sold more albums. Her most successful was 3x. Britney's 2 albums were released 17 months apart at the height of the teen pop era before Napster when she was basically the female Nsync. She fell hard and fast after that. Whitney is the only black woman in history to have a true diamond album (10 million sold, not just shipped).

The other thing I would say about Spears' album sales is that she clearly had much better competion than Taylor Swift, Beyonce, and Rihanna and still dominated that era in sales. So you can't really undervalue her commercial success at that time.

I also wouldn't say she fell of too hard after that either because Spears' third higest selling album, Britney, has sold roughly as much as Beyonce's highest selling album, Dangerously in Love, with global sales at around 10 million each according to the most conservative estimates.

As has been pointed out, Usher, who most probably would never think was ever as big as Beyonce, has a diamond certified album, unlike Beyonce.

[Edited 12/18/16 11:43am]

[Edited 12/18/16 11:45am]

COMPUTERBLUE1984 said:

@ mjcarousel

Although I can't say I know much of Britney Spears catalogue, this thread has been interesting.

The problem is that (Beyonce) she gets so much media saturation, I wonder at times if some of these "pieces" in papers, blogs, etc are just glorified press releases. Everything is so sychronized with her media machine that this all seems like a coordinated effort leading to the Grammy Awards.

We've (you and I) stated it on another thread and I would say it again: SHe is an "icon" without an iconic moment. She has broken no new ground culturally, musically, or otherwise, but is always front and center absorbing the spotlight or getting credit for things that were done (much better) by her predecessors. This newest accolade is almost par for the course for her, so nothing surprises me anymore.

[Edited 12/18/16 6:29am]

I remember when you said this and I completely agree! However, how can one be an Icon without any true Iconic moments? I don't consider Beyonce an "Icon" and most people I talk too don't either. I think lastdecember is spot on with his sentiments with Beyonce being more so a "media brand" than anything else. The bolded of your post is excellent, AMAZING and spot on!

This is why my theory has always been that there is an industry agenda going on to push Beyonce as the greatest artist of all time because as you stated yourself, her media saturation is always sychronized with the releases of the Grammys, award shows etc. I DO think a lot of these publications are direct press releases from her camp. HOWEVER, I also believe a lot of the media and industry ass kissing is purposeful as well. What do you think of this theory? Or what are you thoughts on why she is being so heavily pushed? I really appreciate this insightful post!

Goddess4Real said: