MickyDolenz said:

lastdecember said:

Better Question : Why did RB totally lose groups that PLAY instruments, are there any?

That might have more to do with many schools cutting out music classes and also technology. Technology created recording consoles with many tracks. Pre-1970s, most music had to be recorded live as there was only 2 or 4 tracks. If someone messed up, the whole band had to play over. Afterward you didn't have to sing a song all the way through, just punch in a line at a time. If someone messed up, punch in a correction. This also made it possible for 1 man band records. Technology created the "beatmaker producer". You didn't even need a studio, which became more expensive and weren't around in some areas anyway. Musical instruments are expensive too and can take a long time to learn. Earlier acts might have had instruments at school to learn on. Someone could get a inexpensive drum machine or Casio keyboard and make a track in their bedroom, it became "do it yourself". Cut out the middleman. Acts like Too $hort originally sold their albums themselves out of their trunk and later got "discovered" by a label. It wasn't an A&R person going to a club/bar to discover acts.

.

Decades ago, kids and teens like Louis Armstrong, George Benson, The Beatles, Jackson 5, etc. played in bars & clubs and even performed music for strippers and burlesque dancers. That won't fly today with newer laws that are more enforced. Many of the places that the earlier performers played in (US) were ran by the mafia, who would pay off the police to prevent busts.

yep

novabrkr said:

MickyDolenz said:

jackson35 said:

brother dolenz, u known these acts were not being played during the primetime hour. how does that help them sell records?

Eddy Grant had a few Top 40 hits including the one he's most known for - Electric Avenue and that video was popular. Do you think people only saw it on Friday Night Videos? Most people didn't have MTV in the beginning anyway or even cable television. In the early 1980s, most hit records were still made from radio play. MTV didn't show AC acts like Air Supply and Christopher Cross and they were popular. That's why MTV later created VH-1 for adult contemporary acts that were not shown on the main station. Oak Ridge Boys, Kenny Rogers, & Eddie Rabbitt had pop hits and MTV didn't show country videos at all. MTV started in 1981 and didn't really become popular until around 1983, so it wouldn't have helped Rick's Street Songs record. MTV showed a lot of videos and acts who didn't become popular or got a lot of radio airplay.

mtv is only interested in helping black acts that have trouble selling records to white people. mtv did some reseach and found out that rick james has a white fan base that buys his records and go to his concerts. this is why they pass on him.

jackson35 said:

mtv is only interested in helping black acts that have trouble selling records to white people.

If that was the case, then that's many of the acts that were on the R&B chart. Zapp, Lakeside, and D-Train didn't have any big pop hits in the early 1980s. Lionel Richie had no problem selling to white people and he got heavy MTV airplay, and Lionel was on Motown just like Rick. Rockwell was on Motown too and his videos were on MTV. MTV didn't show Teena Marie and she was white, but had no problem later showing Whitney Houston all the time. Teena was mainly popular with the black audience and she didn't get any Top 40 airplay until Lovergirl and that was after she left Motown. Hall & Oates and Michael McDonald were popular with both. Rick didn't get much MTV airplay even after Michael Jackson, Billy Ocean, Kool & The Gang, Janet Jackson, Tina Turner, Prince, & others became MTV staples. Maybe Rick's music was too R&B like Evelyn "Champagne" King and Skyy and he didn't fit the format. Or maybe Motown didn't bother promoting Rick to MTV & pop radio because he would complain about the label. Lionel & Stevie Wonder didn't. They were promoted to pop radio and so were DeBarge on the Rythym Of The Night album. Motown was still ran by Berry Gordy, so he couldn't have been racist against Rick. Jody Watley got on MTV but Howard Hewitt didn't. There was a difference in their music. If you notice pretty much all of the black performers on We Are The World were ones that had crossed over and also got MTV airplay. They weren't people that had a hard time selling to the mainstream. That would be many of the acts that later wound up on Video Soul.

all of those acts you just mention needed a large white fan base for recoed labels and mtv to care about. the black community outspends the white community on thingd such as records, but yet we are still being marginalized. mtv wants to be the white savior of black culture and black music, rick james calling them a racist network was not a good look.

jackson35 said:

all of those acts you just mention needed a large white fan base for record labels and mtv to care about. the black community outspends the white community on things such as records, but yet we are still being marginalized. mtv wants to be the white savior of black culture and black music, rick james calling them a racist network was not a good look.

Is that right? Then how come most of the biggest seling acts are white? Did more black people buy Beatles, Elvis, U2, Pink Floyd, Eagles, & Garth Brooks records than white people? Do a lot black people hunt down Grateful Dead, Pearl Jam, & Bob Dylan bootleg concerts or attend a lot of hair metal concerts? If black people spent more on records, why didn't Brick, The Blackbyrds, The Temptations, or Stephanie Mills go diamond like Vanilla Ice and Journey? How did New Kids On The Block outsell New Edition? NKOTB was so popular they had bedsheets, dolls, lamps, and a cartoon show. New Edition didn't have any of that. Funny that Michael Jackson had bigger audiences after Thriller than when he was with The Jacksons and had a more black audience. Those records did not sell that much. The Gamble & Huff albums are obscure to the mainstream public and even Michael Jackson fans, but many people all over the world know Thriller & Bad.

Graycap23 said:

SeventeenDayze said:

It's also a money thing. The studios don't make as much money since they don't get to charge the acts for the use of their studio and paying off the studio musicians as well. This reduces everything to beats and no real instruments are being used anymore. I can't think of a top 10 R&B hit song that uses all instruments and none of the sampling stuff...can anyone think of a song that hasn't been watered down by drum machines?

Mint Condition does not use drum machines.

Actually, they do use drum machines, on some of their songs. Not all of them. They might use a percussion over the drum machine parts, but a drum machine is used nonetheless.

HuMpThAnG said:

So white kids listen to Doris Day & Perry Como and such?

I know, right ?

silkman said:

Graycap23 said:

Mint Condition does not use drum machines.

Actually, they do use drum machines, on some of their songs. Not all of them. They might use a percussion over the drum machine parts, but a drum machine is used nonetheless.

Which songs are u speaking of? The 1st cd?

Graycap23 said:

silkman said:

Actually, they do use drum machines, on some of their songs. Not all of them. They might use a percussion over the drum machine parts, but a drum machine is used nonetheless.

Which songs are u speaking of? The 1st cd?

All of their albums. They use live drums on some of their songs (with maybe a percussion lay on top of the drum machine). Examples, "Nobody Does It Better Than Me", "Call Me", "You Don't Have To Cry", "Single To Mingle" "Are You Free", etc.... There's others, I don't feel like going into a list right now lol !!!! But, yeah alot of their music (not all of it), on their cd's aren't drum machine free.

silkman said:

Graycap23 said:

Which songs are u speaking of? The 1st cd?

All of their albums. They use live drums on some of their songs (with maybe a percussion lay on top of the drum machine). Examples, "Nobody Does It Better Than Me", "Call Me", "You Don't Have To Cry", "Single To Mingle" "Are You Free", etc.... There's others, I don't feel like going into a list right now lol !!!! But, yeah alot of their music (not all of it), on their cd's aren't drum machine free.

Kool.

I need 2 pay better attention.

I know the 1st cd was probably mostly drum machine.

Graycap23 said:

silkman said:

All of their albums. They use live drums on some of their songs (with maybe a percussion lay on top of the drum machine). Examples, "Nobody Does It Better Than Me", "Call Me", "You Don't Have To Cry", "Single To Mingle" "Are You Free", etc.... There's others, I don't feel like going into a list right now lol !!!! But, yeah alot of their music (not all of it), on their cd's aren't drum machine free.

Kool.

I need 2 pay better attention.

I know the 1st cd was probably mostly drum machine.

The first album had like three songs where they used lived drums. The rest was most definitely drum machine. With Mint, I find they use live drums on their big ballad jams. You Don't Have To Cry No More, was an exception. Which is one of the things that always frustrated me with them. I always felt songs like, "Nobody Does It Better" would've sounded so much better with live drums.

MickyDolenz said:

jackson35 said:

all of those acts you just mention needed a large white fan base for record labels and mtv to care about. the black community outspends the white community on things such as records, but yet we are still being marginalized. mtv wants to be the white savior of black culture and black music, rick james calling them a racist network was not a good look.

Is that right? Then how come most of the biggest seling acts are white? Did more black people buy Beatles, Elvis, U2, Pink Floyd, Eagles, & Garth Brooks records than white people? Do a lot black people hunt down Grateful Dead, Pearl Jam, & Bob Dylan bootleg concerts or attend a lot of hair metal concerts? If black people spent more on records, why didn't Brick, The Blackbyrds, The Temptations, or Stephanie Mills go diamond like Vanilla Ice and Journey? How did New Kids On The Block outsell New Edition? NKOTB was so popular they had bedsheets, dolls, lamps, and a cartoon show. New Edition didn't have any of that. Funny that Michael Jackson had bigger audiences after Thriller than when he was with The Jacksons and had a more black audience. Those records did not sell that much. The Gamble & Huff albums are obscure to the mainstream public and even Michael Jackson fans, but many people all over the world know Thriller & Bad.

barry white as a single act shits on all of them. by the 1977 came around he already sold over 100 million records. boys to men records sale shits on new kids sales records. fats dominio was outselling elvis for four years straight, then sam cooke gave him a run for his money,

Blacks and rock didn't get separated.

There's diversity among all people. So, the same way some whites like jazz over country (or vice versa), some blacks like rap over rock.

Elements of rock turn up in r&b and rap to this day. I've seen rock elements in the sets of rap artists' SNL appearances on numerous occasions, for example. And, I rarely watch SNL or pay attention to rappers. So, there must be a significant number of rappers still using rock on occasion.

@MickeyDolenz is giving White music execs, promoters and radio/media execs a little too much credit and I think White supremacy (not zieg heil Hitler...but just the notion of White is always best) has much to do with why you could hear Lynard Skynard and ZZ Top on those precious AOR stations in the 1970s and 1980s but not Mother's Finest who played in the same vien. Ego. "We are inherently better than you"....simply put. Funkadelic (not Parliament) could have been played alongside Zappa and the Grateful Dead or the Tubes or any number of bands. But "Ego....We are the alpha and omega of Rock." got in the way, not record sales or failure of Blacks to support the music.

Living Colour's latest three albums are better than their first three excellent albums.....but nobody knows about that....but we know all about Rage vs. the Machine even though they broke up many years ago. 24-7 Spyz was years ahead of Limp Bizquit....but those guys made huge cash blending rap with rock....This whole notion of "Our music.....is superior to your music.....Black people don't make rock music....etc." Its bigger than simple economics, its about philosophy, outlook and who has the right to express themselves in the rock artform. Rock = Americana and the contemporary view of Americana and music only includes Blacks as "rappers", not even creators and sustainers of true hip hop but "rappers" only. I think what has happened to hip hop can answer the question of what happened to Blacks in rock, blues, and jazz.

Prince and Lenny made brief appearances on "white oriented" rock stations in the 1980s and 1990s respectively, but you would be hard pressed to find KROQ in L.A. playing the same Prince tracks they played in the 1980s.....and KLOS in LA playing the Lenny tracks they played in the 1990s even though they play the same Beastie Boys, U2, Def Leppard and other bands they played in the 1990s and 1980s.

Preach on mrgone777! You are on point. I've always told people that the early Funkadelic records (like "Free Your Mind") is right up there with Sabbath's "Paranoid" and Jimi's "Are You Experienced". And Mother's Finest back in the day has opened for bands like Van Halen to Molly Hatchet. But in the 70's and 80's it's always been the thing of "too black, too strong". Living Colour received some airplay on r&b radio with "What's Your Favorite Color" , but it was edited to keep the JB style funk in and the aggressive rock guitar part out.

mrgone777 said:

@MickeyDolenz is giving White music execs, promoters and radio/media execs a little too much credit and I think White supremacy (not zieg heil Hitler...but just the notion of White is always best) has much to do with why you could hear Lynard Skynard and ZZ Top on those precious AOR stations in the 1970s and 1980s but not Mother's Finest who played in the same vien. Ego. "We are inherently better than you"....simply put. Funkadelic (not Parliament) could have been played alongside Zappa and the Grateful Dead or the Tubes or any number of bands. But "Ego....We are the alpha and omega of Rock." got in the way, not record sales or failure of Blacks to support the music.

Living Colour's latest three albums are better than their first three excellent albums.....but nobody knows about that....but we know all about Rage vs. the Machine even though they broke up many years ago. 24-7 Spyz was years ahead of Limp Bizquit....but those guys made huge cash blending rap with rock....This whole notion of "Our music.....is superior to your music.....Black people don't make rock music....etc." Its bigger than simple economics, its about philosophy, outlook and who has the right to express themselves in the rock artform. Rock = Americana and the contemporary view of Americana and music only includes Blacks as "rappers", not even creators and sustainers of true hip hop but "rappers" only. I think what has happened to hip hop can answer the question of what happened to Blacks in rock, blues, and jazz.

Prince and Lenny made brief appearances on "white oriented" rock stations in the 1980s and 1990s respectively, but you would be hard pressed to find KROQ in L.A. playing the same Prince tracks they played in the 1980s.....and KLOS in LA playing the Lenny tracks they played in the 1990s even though they play the same Beastie Boys, U2, Def Leppard and other bands they played in the 1990s and 1980s.

Absolutely agree!

And isn't this always how it goes anyway? In 30 years Black people will probably no longer be associated with Hip-hop/Rap and Soul music and those genres will be performed by mainly White artists.

namepeace said:

Graycap23 said:

This same video will apply 2 Rap in 20 years.

Heck, GC, it's happening now. Non-black fans are a big chunk of the touring audiences for the hip-hop legends of the 80s and 90s.

You ain't lyin. Last rap concert I went to I could probably count on one hand all the Black people there. Including me. By the way, they were moshing. Who does that at a rap show?

SPYZFAN1 said:

Preach on mrgone777! You are on point. I've always told people that the early Funkadelic records (like "Free Your Mind") is right up there with Sabbath's "Paranoid" and Jimi's "Are You Experienced". And Mother's Finest back in the day has opened for bands like Van Halen to Molly Hatchet. But in the 70's and 80's it's always been the thing of "too black, too strong". Living Colour received some airplay on r&b radio with "What's Your Favorite Color" , but it was edited to keep the JB style funk in and the aggressive rock guitar part out.

spyzfan1 love your handle cuz i love 24-7 Spyz....i've been down with them and Living Colour from the jump in 1988 and 1989! i just came across a great piece posted from a BRC member on this topic and the power to define. when you think about it....Blacks never really separated from rock...the definition of what rock is moved on us! So when I hear PE especially their first two joints I hear rock....hip hop yeah...but rock...harder than Run DMC or the Beasties which were also rock. When I hear EWF I hear what white folks call "prog rock" and a little jazz-rock fusion kinda like Return to Forever or Lenny White. We listened to the Isleys (Go For Your Guns is a rock classic if you ask me) and we bumped Funkadelic (acid, hard funky rock and a little metal). its all about the power to label and define which is form of privilege that comes from dominance.....if I can find the link to the BRC article I will post it!

Oh yes! If you do find that link please post it. "Go For Your Guns" was the first Isley's joint I ever heard and owned. Even though it was funky and sexy, it still hit hard like something Jimi or Zep would have thrown at you. You don't hear guitar solos like that anymore in mainstream R&B today.

starbelly said:

namepeace said:

Heck, GC, it's happening now. Non-black fans are a big chunk of the touring audiences for the hip-hop legends of the 80s and 90s.

You ain't lyin. Last rap concert I went to I could probably count on one hand all the Black people there. Including me. By the way, they were moshing. Who does that at a rap show?