it's something i've thought about, but i honestly don't know

it's a shame though... because just to give two examples, jimi is yet to be topped... and imo little richard is still the greatest rock'n'roll singer of all time


.

[Edited 1/23/15 8:20am]

Better Question : Why did RB totally lose groups that PLAY instruments, are there any? Besides Mint Condition please name one that isnt 100 years old.

bobzilla77 said:

My impression is that black culture moves a lot more quickly than white culture when it comes to pop music. Ahmet Ertegun once said there is no audience with less nostalgia for the past than a black audience, it's all about what is happening now, today, that didn't exist yesterday. And to many of those people "rock" is something that happened a long time ago. Frankly you don't have a lot of young black folks following the modern jazz scene either.

That used to be true until shit hop came along. Once it took over in the 1990s, it dominated R&B then and it still dominates today. That's over 20 years without moving on. It's damn ridiculous.

vainandy said:

bobzilla77 said:

My impression is that black culture moves a lot more quickly than white culture when it comes to pop music. Ahmet Ertegun once said there is no audience with less nostalgia for the past than a black audience, it's all about what is happening now, today, that didn't exist yesterday. And to many of those people "rock" is something that happened a long time ago. Frankly you don't have a lot of young black folks following the modern jazz scene either.

That used to be true until shit hop came along. Once it took over in the 1990s, it dominated R&B then and it still dominates today. That's over 20 years without moving on. It's damn ridiculous.

lastdecember said:

Better Question : Why did RB totally lose groups that PLAY instruments, are there any?

That might have more to do with many schools cutting out music classes and also technology. Technology created recording consoles with many tracks. Pre-1970s, most music had to be recorded live as there was only 2 or 4 tracks. If someone messed up, the whole band had to play over. Afterward you didn't have to sing a song all the way through, just punch in a line at a time. If someone messed up, punch in a correction. This also made it possible for 1 man band records. Technology created the "beatmaker producer". You didn't even need a studio, which became more expensive and weren't around in some areas anyway. Musical instruments are expensive too and can take a long time to learn. Earlier acts might have had instruments at school to learn on. Someone could get a inexpensive drum machine or Casio keyboard and make a track in their bedroom, it became "do it yourself". Cut out the middleman. Acts like Too $hort originally sold their albums themselves out of their trunk and later got "discovered" by a label. It wasn't an A&R person going to a club/bar to discover acts.

.

Decades ago, kids and teens like Louis Armstrong, George Benson, The Beatles, Jackson 5, etc. played in bars & clubs and even performed music for strippers and burlesque dancers. That won't fly today with newer laws that are more enforced. Many of the places that the earlier performers played in (US) were ran by the mafia, who would pay off the police to prevent busts.

MickyDolenz said:

lastdecember said:

Better Question : Why did RB totally lose groups that PLAY instruments, are there any?

That might have more to do with many schools cutting out music classes and also technology. Technology created recording consoles with many tracks. Pre-1970s, most music had to be recorded live as there was only 2 or 4 tracks.

That and sampling killed it off.

Graycap23 said:

MickyDolenz said:

That might have more to do with many schools cutting out music classes and also technology. Technology created recording consoles with many tracks. Pre-1970s, most music had to be recorded live as there was only 2 or 4 tracks.

That and sampling killed it off.

It's also a money thing. The studios don't make as much money since they don't get to charge the acts for the use of their studio and paying off the studio musicians as well. This reduces everything to beats and no real instruments are being used anymore. I can't think of a top 10 R&B hit song that uses all instruments and none of the sampling stuff...can anyone think of a song that hasn't been watered down by drum machines?

A lot of people today forget that a lot of rock 'n roll wasn't just R&B by itself. Early rock 'n roll had country & western mixed in with it, especially rockabilly. Some country & western and blues acts copied Hawaiian music. In the US, there was a Hawaiian music craze in the 1910s and 1920s. That's pretty much where slide guitar style was developed from. Chuck Berry had country in his music and he sang in a sort of country singer style. Chuck's earlier stuff was more straight blues and it wasn't really successful. Ray Charles put out country records. He first performed in a Nat King Cole style. Some R&B/soul songs were covers of country songs and vice-versa similar to R&B acts copying gospel songs & changing the lyrics.

.

Sam Cooke released albums of showtunes and standards. Sam and other black performers of the era were trying to get into the upper class white establishments like the Copa. This is also why Berry Gordy sent some of his acts to charm school to learn things like how to walk, talk, and how eating utensils were put on the table. They wanted the Rat Pack audience and not the low paying juke joint gigs where they might not get paid at all. Frank Sinatra got B.B. King a gig playing in Las Vegas hotels in the 1960s. Back then, acts couldn't perform in Vegas without going through the mob, and Frank was on good terms with them.

SeventeenDayze said:

Graycap23 said:

That and sampling killed it off.

It's also a money thing. The studios don't make as much money since they don't get to charge the acts for the use of their studio and paying off the studio musicians as well. This reduces everything to beats and no real instruments are being used anymore. I can't think of a top 10 R&B hit song that uses all instruments and none of the sampling stuff...can anyone think of a song that hasn't been watered down by drum machines?

Mint Condition does not use drum machines.

i have always thought that black people generally just wont entertain white acts in any shape or

form.

Graycap23 said:

HuMpThAnG said:

thread

As long as it doesn't get derailed.

I don't know if anybody watched the video you posted but I think the guy from the band, Was Not Was gave the best analysis.

When you say rock I don't think it's quite the same thing as rock and roll though?

SuperSoulFighter said:

So in a way the mafia helped create rock & roll. I never looked at it that way... Very informative, thanks Mickey.

The mob had a hand in the entire entertainment industry including the Hollywood movie studios. It was rumored that Motown had mob ties as the reason for the label becoming so successful in the 1960s, and also that the mafia had Sam Cooke & Marilyn Monroe killed. The mob was also in the record distribution business and ran some record labels, sometimes as a front for money laundering. Those older performers didn't carry around guns for nothing. People today like Suge Knight are no comparison to the guys from the old days.

SeventeenDayze said:

Graycap23 said:

That and sampling killed it off.

It's also a money thing. The studios don't make as much money since they don't get to charge the acts for the use of their studio and paying off the studio musicians as well. This reduces everything to beats and no real instruments are being used anymore. I can't think of a top 10 R&B hit song that uses all instruments and none of the sampling stuff...can anyone think of a song that hasn't been watered down by drum machines?

Which is why most of the studios are closing down, very sad and to me someone (industry and artists) should be supporting this, with the Exception of people like Dave Grohl i dont see many caring about the classic studios going away.

bobzilla77 said:

I was watching the VH1 doc "Finding The Funk" last night (very good btw) and they had Arthur Baker, the producer of Planet Rock, talking about how yeah, drum machines kind of killed the "funk band" as it was known. He didn't sound happy about it. He said they were just trying to go somewhere different with it, they needed something different than a live drummer. He didn't expect to replace drummers completely. But that's how it went down.

Ironically, "Funky Drummer," is, and has long been, the defining hook for hip-hop, and arguably, contemporary pop music.

SoulAlive said:

bobzilla77 said:

My impression is that black culture moves a lot more quickly than white culture when it comes to pop music. Ahmet Ertegun once said there is no audience with less nostalgia for the past than a black audience, it's all about what is happening now, today, that didn't exist yesterday. And to many of those people "rock" is something that happened a long time ago. Frankly you don't have a lot of young black folks following the modern jazz scene either.

Wow,I once had a discussion with a friend,and he said the exact same thing there may be some truth to it.In the mid-80s,blacks began embracing hip-hop and turning their back on funk bands,who were suddenly seen as 'old fashioned'.

Reminds me of this fictional debate, 25 years earlier.

[Edited 1/26/15 16:51pm]

[Edited 1/26/15 16:51pm]

bobzilla77 said:

My impression is that black culture moves a lot more quickly than white culture when it comes to pop music. Ahmet Ertegun once said there is no audience with less nostalgia for the past than a black audience, it's all about what is happening now, today, that didn't exist yesterday.

I agree with that first sentence, though hip-hop has enjoyed a very long run as the dominant genre.

Why does Ertegun's comment resonate? Could it be that once music has been exposed to the larger audiences, black audiences move on to the next thing?

Actually, I think black audiences are far more splintered than it may seem.

^^ Yeah I don't think you can talk about a "black audience" like it all does the same thing. I do know some 40-60 year old black folks that are are real into rock music and still play it. They obviously know their history and get into all kinds of things.

But what Ahmet went on to say was "White kids listen to Led Zeppelin with their parents. Young black kids don't listen to what their mothers listen to... they're not listening to Billy Eckstine."

bobzilla77 said:

^^ Yeah I don't think you can talk about a "black audience" like it all does the same thing. I do know some 40-60 year old black folks that are are real into rock music and still play it. They obviously know their history and get into all kinds of things.

But what Ahmet went on to say was "White kids listen to Led Zeppelin with their parents. Young black kids don't listen to what their mothers listen to... they're not listening to Billy Eckstine."

I partially agree with Ahmet. I think young black kids may not listen to Billy Eckstine because their parents didn't listen to Billy Eckstine. Or (for the most part) Led Zep.

But like you said, that only goes to prove his point. Historically, black audiences move on quickly, which weakens affinities for the black roots of rock and roll.

So white kids listen to Doris Day & Perry Como and such?

This same video will apply 2 Rap in 20 years.

Graycap23 said:

This same video will apply 2 Rap in 20 years.

Heck, GC, it's happening now. Non-black fans are a big chunk of the touring audiences for the hip-hop legends of the 80s and 90s.

Graycap23 said:

This same video will apply 2 Rap in 20 years.

Well, having noticed style changes in R&B seemed to occur at the beginning of each decade (give or take a year), back in the 1990s when shit hop was dominating, I predicted it would die when the new decade arrived or shortly after, like styles had always changed in the past. The year 2000 came, shit hop still dominated. Hell, another decade, 2010, arrived, still no change. We're in 2015 now. Hell, the style isn't going to change. Especially when you consider it's the cheapest thing for the labels to make so they're not going to let it die if they can help it.

.

Also, unlike our generation who lived through style changes every decade, there is a whole new generation of people in their 20s who were born into the shit hop era and there has never been a style change the entire time they have been living. It's all they know and it's all they want to know. A style change is hopeless and I've given up waiting for one.

HuMpThAnG said:

So white kids listen to Doris Day & Perry Como and such?

Do Cuban kids listen to Desi Arnaz or Cachau?

vainandy said:

Also, unlike our generation who lived through style changes every decade, there is a whole new generation of people in their 20s who were born into the shit hop era and there has never been a style change the entire time they have been living. It's all they know and it's all they want to know.

Great observation.

vainandy said:

Graycap23 said:

This same video will apply 2 Rap in 20 years.

Well, having noticed style changes in R&B seemed to occur at the beginning of each decade (give or take a year), back in the 1990s when shit hop was dominating, I predicted it would die when the new decade arrived or shortly after, like styles had always changed in the past. The year 2000 came, shit hop still dominated. Hell, another decade, 2010, arrived, still no change. We're in 2015 now. Hell, the style isn't going to change. Especially when you consider it's the cheapest thing for the labels to make so they're not going to let it die if they can help it.

.

Also, unlike our generation who lived through style changes every decade, there is a whole new generation of people in their 20s who were born into the shit hop era and there has never been a style change the entire time they have been living. It's all they know and it's all they want to know. A style change is hopeless and I've given up waiting for one.

Agreed. The style changes that were once a given have now stopped. All the songs are about money, women, drugs, alcohol and guns.....the standard...

HuMpThAnG said:

So white kids listen to Doris Day & Perry Como and such?

I think his point was, Led Zeppelin is a thing from 40 years ago, yet they still have a lot of young white people listening to them & thinking they are important.

bobzilla77 said:

HuMpThAnG said:

So white kids listen to Doris Day & Perry Como and such?

I think his point was, Led Zeppelin is a thing from 40 years ago, yet they still have a lot of young white people listening to them & thinking they are important.

That's probably because they get played all the time on classic rock stations. There's other rock groups and songs from the same time period that don't get the same airplay. You also have programs like That Metal Show which have veteran acts on them to talk about their new records and also promote newer acts in the same style. Rock was also considered an album format since in general, it didn't get Top 40 airplay. They were mainly played on a separate radio format Album Oriented Rock, which didn't just play singles. Led Zeppelin, Rush, Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Metallica, KISS, Pink Floyd, etc. managed to sell a lot of albums with few or no hit singles. R&B was mostly a singles format, most acts didn't really sell a lot of albums. That's why some R&B acts made efforts to crossover to get the bigger sales and also why many old R&B/soul/funk albums are out of print.

There's so much great rock music being played by African American youth right now. Surprised no one here has named checked anyone yet.

[Edited 1/28/15 20:32pm]

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Black-Rock-Coalition/83748180988