Gunsnhalen said:

I agree with Mickey 100% on this actually. I call 100% bullshit that people back in the day didn't find good music. Kids who were goth in the early 80's weren't going to see say The Cure for example on MTV. The Cure wasn't a ''mainstream'' thing till the late 80's So, kids had to learn about them through record shops. And shows... and things like that.

Other bands who are beloved today... but weren't huge in their time. Include The Smiths, Sonic Youth, Metallica, Megadeth, Overkill, Venom, Grover Washington JR etc. Just to name a few. They wern't getting big or sometimes any MTV exposure.

How did metal kids learn about Metallica, Slayer, Megadeth, Anthrax, Motorhead, Priest, Maiden? when there video were never played on MTV in the early days. No rock station was playing metal yet.. and it was years before headbangers ball. They had to go to shows, hear word of mouth. or go and discover them at record stores. Many metal guys said they discovered Metallica & Slayer through going to their record store... seeing the cover and saying ''wtf is that''

And, what about the non MTV kids. It was a cable channel.... so i know not EVERYONE had it in the 80's. So, they only had radio play to go on. If there parents or whatever only listened to one or two stations, how would they discover other music? if they were a punk, goth, rockabilly, metal head, funkster etc. They had to search! and it's even easier to search nowadays... you just gotta go to google or fucking youtube. Back in the day it was a lot harder to know if something was good or not. Based on a record sleeve or whatever

So, for those who don't like modern ''mainstream'' and think 00's and 10's are shit and in that mind set. It's 1000 times easier to find new music, then it was in the 80's or 70's.

There were a lot of music videos shows on regular tv. Back then music videos were the reality tv of the 80s. There was MV3, a syndicated LA based show that featured underground and new wave videos. California Music channel, USA's Night Flight, and Friday Night Videos were others. Also, kids would go to their friends house who did have a cable. Record stores and radio were also a big exposure to new music. Mtv had th Headbangers Ball and 120 minutes which played all the undeground acts you mentioned.

lrn36 said:

Gunsnhalen said:

I agree with Mickey 100% on this actually. I call 100% bullshit that people back in the day didn't find good music. Kids who were goth in the early 80's weren't going to see say The Cure for example on MTV. The Cure wasn't a ''mainstream'' thing till the late 80's So, kids had to learn about them through record shops. And shows... and things like that.

Other bands who are beloved today... but weren't huge in their time. Include The Smiths, Sonic Youth, Metallica, Megadeth, Overkill, Venom, Grover Washington JR etc. Just to name a few. They wern't getting big or sometimes any MTV exposure.

How did metal kids learn about Metallica, Slayer, Megadeth, Anthrax, Motorhead, Priest, Maiden? when there video were never played on MTV in the early days. No rock station was playing metal yet.. and it was years before headbangers ball. They had to go to shows, hear word of mouth. or go and discover them at record stores. Many metal guys said they discovered Metallica & Slayer through going to their record store... seeing the cover and saying ''wtf is that''

And, what about the non MTV kids. It was a cable channel.... so i know not EVERYONE had it in the 80's. So, they only had radio play to go on. If there parents or whatever only listened to one or two stations, how would they discover other music? if they were a punk, goth, rockabilly, metal head, funkster etc. They had to search! and it's even easier to search nowadays... you just gotta go to google or fucking youtube. Back in the day it was a lot harder to know if something was good or not. Based on a record sleeve or whatever

So, for those who don't like modern ''mainstream'' and think 00's and 10's are shit and in that mind set. It's 1000 times easier to find new music, then it was in the 80's or 70's.

There were a lot of music videos shows on regular tv. Back then music videos were the reality tv of the 80s. There was MV3, a syndicated LA based show that featured underground and new wave videos. California Music channel, USA's Night Flight, and Friday Night Videos were others. Also, kids would go to their friends house who did have a cable. Record stores and radio were also a big exposure to new music. Mtv had th Headbangers Ball and 120 minutes which played all the undeground acts you mentioned.

Headbangers ball wasn't around till 87. How else were metal videos shows before then? a lot of those other shows wern't till the mid 80's How did kids discover the music before then? how did kids discover punk in the 70's? that sure wasn't getting radio play. And that was pre-mtv. Sex Pistols, Black Flag and the Clash wern't getting airplay in the 70's. And no videos to support... so kids had to go to record stores. And hear about them from friends and other people. Same with hip-hop around that time... there were no videos or big exposure on radio.

^^How did people find out about early Sugarhill Gang era rap records though? Very few early hip hop acts made music videos or even albums. It was mainly a 12" single format because many of the songs were long and were not on 45s, which is what most people bought as singles. Rappers generally weren't on TV shows like American Bandstand, Soul Train, or Solid Gold except maybe Kurtis Blow or Blondie doing Rapture. A lot of R&B radio refused to play it at first, and pop radio didn't bother with it. Friday Night Videos came on late, past some kids bedtimes, and mostly showed whatever was already a hit.

Gunsnhalen said:

I agree with Mickey 100% on this actually. I call 100% bullshit that people back in the day didn't find good music. Kids who were goth in the early 80's weren't going to see say The Cure for example on MTV. The Cure wasn't a ''mainstream'' thing till the late 80's So, kids had to learn about them through record shops. And shows... and things like that.

Other bands who are beloved today... but weren't huge in their time. Include The Smiths, Sonic Youth, Metallica, Megadeth, Overkill, Venom, Grover Washington JR etc. Just to name a few. They wern't getting big or sometimes any MTV exposure.

How did metal kids learn about Metallica, Slayer, Megadeth, Anthrax, Motorhead, Priest, Maiden? when there video were never played on MTV in the early days. No rock station was playing metal yet.. and it was years before headbangers ball. They had to go to shows, hear word of mouth. or go and discover them at record stores. Many metal guys said they discovered Metallica & Slayer through going to their record store... seeing the cover and saying ''wtf is that''

And, what about the non MTV kids. It was a cable channel.... so i know not EVERYONE had it in the 80's. So, they only had radio play to go on. If there parents or whatever only listened to one or two stations, how would they discover other music? if they were a punk, goth, rockabilly, metal head, funkster etc. They had to search! and it's even easier to search nowadays... you just gotta go to google or fucking youtube. Back in the day it was a lot harder to know if something was good or not. Based on a record sleeve or whatever

So, for those who don't like modern ''mainstream'' and think 00's and 10's are shit and in that mind set. It's 1000 times easier to find new music, then it was in the 80's or 70's.

this is a very good post and I agree but, as I said earlier, I think worthy new artists are not reliable, it's just one album and then the downhill comes quickly, I've felt betrayed MANY times by new acts that back in 2000-2007 seemed the BOMB but now they're mostly gone or releasing new music that just doesn't does it for me...

GaGa, LCD Soundsystem, Arcade Fire, Roising Murphy, the list goes on and on...

do you guys seriously think that any artist/band that has begun in the '00s is gonna have a 40 years old career like the '60s-'70s giants? I doubt it...

JoeTyler said:

Gunsnhalen said:

I agree with Mickey 100% on this actually. I call 100% bullshit that people back in the day didn't find good music. Kids who were goth in the early 80's weren't going to see say The Cure for example on MTV. The Cure wasn't a ''mainstream'' thing till the late 80's So, kids had to learn about them through record shops. And shows... and things like that.

Other bands who are beloved today... but weren't huge in their time. Include The Smiths, Sonic Youth, Metallica, Megadeth, Overkill, Venom, Grover Washington JR etc. Just to name a few. They wern't getting big or sometimes any MTV exposure.

How did metal kids learn about Metallica, Slayer, Megadeth, Anthrax, Motorhead, Priest, Maiden? when there video were never played on MTV in the early days. No rock station was playing metal yet.. and it was years before headbangers ball. They had to go to shows, hear word of mouth. or go and discover them at record stores. Many metal guys said they discovered Metallica & Slayer through going to their record store... seeing the cover and saying ''wtf is that''

And, what about the non MTV kids. It was a cable channel.... so i know not EVERYONE had it in the 80's. So, they only had radio play to go on. If there parents or whatever only listened to one or two stations, how would they discover other music? if they were a punk, goth, rockabilly, metal head, funkster etc. They had to search! and it's even easier to search nowadays... you just gotta go to google or fucking youtube. Back in the day it was a lot harder to know if something was good or not. Based on a record sleeve or whatever

So, for those who don't like modern ''mainstream'' and think 00's and 10's are shit and in that mind set. It's 1000 times easier to find new music, then it was in the 80's or 70's.

this is a very good post and I agree but, as I said earlier, I think worthy new artists are not reliable, it's just one album and then the downhill comes quickly, I've felt betrayed MANY times by new acts that back in 2000-2007 seemed the BOMB but now they're mostly gone or releasing new music that just doesn't does it for me...

GaGa, LCD Soundsystem, Arcade Fire, Roising Murphy, the list goes on and on...

do you guys seriously think that any artist/band that has begun in the '00s is gonna have a 40 years old career like the '60s-'70s giants? I doubt it...

Arcade Fire is still making good records. And, people still go crazy for them. They will be around for awhile

And it depends on what 60's and 70's greats you mean. If your talking about The Stones, The Who, or any classic rock band. I would be fine if they never had an 80's output... they usually go downhill after a decade or two. Some of the great 60's and 70's artists too me are Sly & The Family Stone, Stevie Wonder, Bob Dylan, Jimi Hendrix, Velvet Underground, Zeppelin etc. That's a few of MANY

Most of those didn't last longer than a decade right? they had about 10 good years, or 5 great years. Stevie & Bob were beasts in the 60's and 70's. But, who cares about their 80's output? Velvet Underground didn't last that long before it died out. Jimi, Janis, The Doors were only on the scene a few years. Zeppelin lasted about a decade, and their music was falling on it's last album anyways.

Artists like The Stones, Aerosmith, Stevie Wonder, Cher, Aretha, Patti, Marvin Gaye, Parliament-Funkadelic, Kool & The Gang etc. To name a few... had a very long career. And had hits int he 80's.. but after a straight decade of great music. They made some of their weakest in that decade!

To me it makes sense that an artists might fall off a bit after 10 years or so. Some of the greatest only were around a few years. And some were on fire a decade, then chased pop trends to stay relevant after awhile.

Artists like Rihanna, GaGa, Shitney Spears & others. Stay big years later cause they chase any trend to stay top 40. I mean Britney Spears is like 80 years old and making a work bitch song for the young clubs

Gunsnhalen said:

lrn36 said:

There were a lot of music videos shows on regular tv. Back then music videos were the reality tv of the 80s. There was MV3, a syndicated LA based show that featured underground and new wave videos. California Music channel, USA's Night Flight, and Friday Night Videos were others. Also, kids would go to their friends house who did have a cable. Record stores and radio were also a big exposure to new music. Mtv had th Headbangers Ball and 120 minutes which played all the undeground acts you mentioned.

Headbangers ball wasn't around till 87. How else were metal videos shows before then? a lot of those other shows wern't till the mid 80's How did kids discover the music before then? how did kids discover punk in the 70's? that sure wasn't getting radio play. And that was pre-mtv. Sex Pistols, Black Flag and the Clash wern't getting airplay in the 70's. And no videos to support... so kids had to go to record stores. And hear about them from friends and other people. Same with hip-hop around that time... there were no videos or big exposure on radio.

Local and college radio. Back when dj's had some control over their playlists. Everything I learned about funk was from the Uhuru Maggot aka Rick Vincent who would play 3 hours of funk on Berkeley's KPFA.

Fanzines was another way you colud find out about music. The music scene was very regional back then as well.

[Edited 2/25/14 13:42pm]

Some of the people in my grandparents generation didn't find music on the radio or TV, but on jukeboxes at the juke joint/club. My grandfather liked country blues, and not the music on the radio. The music on TV then (if they had a TV in the 1st place) was mainly white pop acts like Frank Sinatra, there was no blues, gospel, or country and barely any non-white people at all, especially in the southern USA where they lived. My grandparents bought most of their records through mail order. They managed to find the music they liked, with little broadcast of any type, mainstream or not.

Gunsnhalen said:

JoeTyler said:

this is a very good post and I agree but, as I said earlier, I think worthy new artists are not reliable, it's just one album and then the downhill comes quickly, I've felt betrayed MANY times by new acts that back in 2000-2007 seemed the BOMB but now they're mostly gone or releasing new music that just doesn't does it for me...

GaGa, LCD Soundsystem, Arcade Fire, Roising Murphy, the list goes on and on...

do you guys seriously think that any artist/band that has begun in the '00s is gonna have a 40 years old career like the '60s-'70s giants? I doubt it...

Arcade Fire is still making good records. And, people still go crazy for them. They will be around for awhile

And it depends on what 60's and 70's greats you mean. If your talking about The Stones, The Who, or any classic rock band. I would be fine if they never had an 80's output... they usually go downhill after a decade or two. Some of the great 60's and 70's artists too me are Sly & The Family Stone, Stevie Wonder, Bob Dylan, Jimi Hendrix, Velvet Underground, Zeppelin etc. That's a few of MANY

Most of those didn't last longer than a decade right? they had about 10 good years, or 5 great years. Stevie & Bob were beasts in the 60's and 70's. But, who cares about their 80's output? Velvet Underground didn't last that long before it died out. Jimi, Janis, The Doors were only on the scene a few years. Zeppelin lasted about a decade, and their music was falling on it's last album anyways.

Artists like The Stones, Aerosmith, Stevie Wonder, Cher, Aretha, Patti, Marvin Gaye, Parliament-Funkadelic, Kool & The Gang etc. To name a few... had a very long career. And had hits int he 80's.. but after a straight decade of great music. They made some of their weakest in that decade!

To me it makes sense that an artists might fall off a bit after 10 years or so. Some of the greatest only were around a few years. And some were on fire a decade, then chased pop trends to stay relevant after awhile.

Artists like Rihanna, GaGa, Shitney Spears & others. Stay big years later cause they chase any trend to stay top 40. I mean Britney Spears is like 80 years old and making a work bitch song for the young clubs

I agree when you say that '60s and '70s legends made their best music in 5 to 12 years and then disappeared (until a comeback, reunion or whatever) or went downhill, but they still wrote a couple (or more) of good singles during their "low point" eras and that pretty much kept them afloat (Elton John is perhaps the perfect example), and their legacy is so big that it has been more than enough to sustain a +40 yo career, even if now it's mostly based on world tours...but I'm not sure if we will be seeing The Arctic Monkeys tour the world in 2032...lol, or if 2040 kids will be discovering The Arcade Fire's "legacy"; hell even many "good" acts from the '90s are being forgotten already (grunge/alt bands, nu-metal acts, female songwriters, etc), whatever happened to Sheryl Crow?? LOL

[Edited 2/25/14 15:11pm]

vainandy said:

And I do admit that classical and jazz are much more talented genres than funk. As boring as they may be, it takes real talent to play them so yes, when it comes to a comparison of funk vs. classical or jazz talentwise, funk loses. All the genres are talented genres with funk being the least talented of the three. As to which sounds better, yes, that's a matter of taste. See, I can definitely be objective to music, even when it comes to genres that I don't like. I don't care for most country/western music either but it is definitely a talented genre of music.

.

But if you compare funk which was yesterday's mainstream R&B to shit hop which is today's mainstream R&B, funk wins hands down and it's not just a matter of taste either because funk was made with instruments by talented musicians while shit hop is made with Fisher Price toys.

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And as for getting older, as I said before, I first started bitching about music in 1985 when Shitney Houston influenced R&B for the worst. Yes, that's simply a matter of taste or opinion but it's definitely not a matter of getting older because I was only freshly graduated from high school at the ripe old age of 17. And then it get even worse in the 1990s with shit hop. I was only in my early to mid 20s at the time and that is far for middle aged also. True, I have my own reasons for hating new mainstream music but getting older is definitely not one of them because I started bitching when I was only 17. Hating new mainstream music didn't start when I got in my 30s and 40s. I bitched for over a decade before I even turned 30.

.

And true, my favorite decade of music is from my early teenage years but I also like music from the 1970s, 1960s, 1950s, and even a little of the swing type stuff from the 1940s such as The Andrew Sisters, The Stripper Song, and yeah, I also little a little jazz (not much) like the A Train, I like some country, lots of rock, and lots of house from the 1990s (most of which was underground), blues from the 1970s and 1980s, so yes, I have diverse tastes and am not just partial to the era in which I grew up in when it comes to comparing it to today's mainstream R&B music. Hell, compare the 40s to it and the 40s wins. Compare classical to it, which is extremely boring, and classical wins. Shit hop is THE must untalented genre of music ever made in the history of recorded music and for it to dominate mainstream R&B is just fucking ridiculous and a damn shame. I'd rather hear two tin cans clanking together than to hear that bullshit.

No, no, no: Andy, I'm not trying to get you to agree with me on the grounds that it takes more

talent for a musician/recording artist to survive jazz/classical waters than it does funk. All I'm

trying to say is that for us who are over 30 years old, today's pop music isn't exactly catering

to our sensibilities. Popular music has always been the domain of pop tarts (pre-teens, tweens,

teens, young adults) who were not churning out the most complex art known to man. There is

no way we can ever prove that a subjective claim ("Mainstream music sucks!" or "Classical music

is better than mainstream music!") with an objective test. I'm glad that you see how I'm not

being a hypocrite in admitting this.

But you started bitching about mainstream music before you became a grown man? Then in my

binary world, you are an elitist! You're one of those people whose taste, I think, is refined and re-

fuses to kowtow to popular sentiments regarding what is "good" or "bad" - A toast to you. And I

feel you on the hip hop complaint; but I'm more interested in levying a social critique about hip

hop as opposed to the musical critique you seem to be lodging.

And thank you for a conversation that didn't resort to making fun of me for trying to be thoughtful

about this shit. Jeezus; I'm headed back over to the Politics and Religion forum!

babynoz said:

duccichucka said:

And it's very unfair to today's music to claim all of it as vulgar or without substance. You can't

have your cake and eat it too.

I am sure I have not claimed any such thing. I just think that it's a false equivalent to imply that Prince only ever made vulgar popular songs given the phenomenal diversity of his catalog. Maybe some people only dug his more vulgar work but he has never been limited to making one type of song.

In fact, some of his most popular songs cannot be described as vulgar...Purple Rain, (the song he is actually most known for), is an obvious choice.

Also...

The Beautiful Ones

The Most Beautiful Girl In The World

Sign Of The Times

Seven

1999

Kiss

As far as songs with substance, I can't agree that there are as many artist doing those types of songs as there used to be. If we're talking about Prince, even artists who could be considered his contemporaries were not recording as many songs of substance as he was much less those that came after him.

Those who came before, yes.

That is not to say we didn't have silly songs. Just listen to Joe Tex or the Jimmy Castor Bunch,

But the difference is that the airwaves werent saturated with silliness to the exclusion of everything else. We weren't bombarded with it.

The thing is, before the era of corporate playlists there was more variety in the mainstream. It wasn't a case where people had to go looking for it either. Surely you are aware that most djs used to be able to whatever they felt like playing for the most part and every dj had a different vibe.

First of all, I'm not sure I'm following how you're using the phrase "false equivalent" in the context

of this discussion.

And I didn't mean "you" in particular, but "you" in general, i.e., those who claim that today's main-

stream music is vulgar or lacking substance as if today's mainstream music is utterly and

completely vulgar and/or lacking substance. This is simply not the case. There are plenty of

recording artists today who are releasing music that I, as a musician trained in classical and

jazz, thinks is "good." Those who make these types of claims are probably those who

are not considering that at some point, Prince was also occasionally vulgar ("Sister") and/or

lacking substance (his first two albums). Mozart wrote popular pieces that aren't entirely sub-

stantial ("Twinkle Twinkle Little Star") and I think even Kind of Blue has some parts that are

easily digestible. And apologies to you purists out there, but On the Corner is as vulgar, IMHO,

as it gets (j/k!).

But your claim that the public escaped being bombarded with silliness up until today's mainstream

music is unfounded, Babynoz, along with the notion that DJs used to be able to play whatever

they felt like playing. Where are you getting these ideas from?

Gunsnhalen said:

I agree with Mickey 100% on this actually. I call 100% bullshit that people back in the day didn't find good music. Kids who were goth in the early 80's weren't going to see say The Cure for example on MTV. The Cure wasn't a ''mainstream'' thing till the late 80's So, kids had to learn about them through record shops. And shows... and things like that.

Other bands who are beloved today... but weren't huge in their time. Include The Smiths, Sonic Youth, Metallica, Megadeth, Overkill, Venom, Grover Washington JR etc. Just to name a few. They wern't getting big or sometimes any MTV exposure.

How did metal kids learn about Metallica, Slayer, Megadeth, Anthrax, Motorhead, Priest, Maiden? when there video were never played on MTV in the early days. No rock station was playing metal yet.. and it was years before headbangers ball. They had to go to shows, hear word of mouth. or go and discover them at record stores. Many metal guys said they discovered Metallica & Slayer through going to their record store... seeing the cover and saying ''wtf is that''

And, what about the non MTV kids. It was a cable channel.... so i know not EVERYONE had it in the 80's. So, they only had radio play to go on. If there parents or whatever only listened to one or two stations, how would they discover other music? if they were a punk, goth, rockabilly, metal head, funkster etc. They had to search! and it's even easier to search nowadays... you just gotta go to google or fucking youtube. Back in the day it was a lot harder to know if something was good or not. Based on a record sleeve or whatever

So, for those who don't like modern ''mainstream'' and think 00's and 10's are shit and in that mind set. It's 1000 times easier to find new music, then it was in the 80's or 70's.

Uh....he is always listing musical exceptions in these types of threads because he knows there are younger people present who were either very little or weren't born back then and wouldn't know any better. He's always listing some mess like bluegrass, Dixieland, or even some damn snake charmer flute music as if they were ever in the mainstream in the first place. Hell, those were regional music so damn right, the average person had to search for those types of music back then. I swear, I'm starting to think he works for either one of these damn monopoly record labels or one of these monopoly radio owners like Clear Channel or something because he tries his absolute DAMNDEST to try to mislead people into thinking it has always been like this by listing THE most extreme of exceptions. Hell, or instance, I would never list no damn local Jackson funk groups from my area that I grew up listening to such as Sho-Nuff, Freedom, or Wynd Chymes and then try to act is if it has always been the case that people had to search for them since one other orger besides myself had heard of them and he said he had to search for them really hard. Well duh?????? He's not from Jackson so OF COURSE he had to search for them. Actually, there was an orger named 100MPH that had some Sho-Nuff records and he was from overseas somewhere. I'm still baffled how he found those records.

.

As for the metalheads, true enough they may have not been played on MTV until much later but there was always life before MTV and it was called radio. And once MTV did come on the scene, they were always the last to get things anyway. My brother was a metalhead and there was a radio station for it, Z106 and before them, there was ZZQ in the 1970s and early 1980s. No, it wasn't 24 hour a day metal but it was a hard rock station and they played plenty of metal in their format along with their hard rock. Once metal made it onto the pop charts (I can't remember because I'm not heavy into metal but I think it was when Quiet Riot made "Cum On Feel The Noize") then a few metal songs started appearing on the pop stations. The same way the R&B made it onto the pop stations. Each genre made it on their own stations first before they made it onto pop radio and there were stations for every format....hard rock, R&B/funk, and country/western. And when it came to R&B radio, it was a wide variety of it from disco to funk to rap and also unfortunately, adult contemporary R&B (the little bit of it that existed back then before little miss you-know-who influenced a truckload of it to follow).

.

We never had to search for anything because it was all played on the radio right at our fingertips and there was tons of variety on the radio. The mainstream was good back then. Yes, there was always the underground and you did have to search to find the underground. Hell, everything starts as the underground and then eventually made it to the mainstream if it was good enough back then. For instance, I discovered house music on a radio station years before I ever went to a gay club. I found it on a radio station that played a variety of different things throughout the day. In the morning, they played black gospel, in the evening, they played blues, and after midnight, they played reggae. On Saturdays at noon, they had a one hour mix show (beatmixing and blending so you know that was right up my alley). Sometimes they would play a house music mix and that's the first time I heard house music. It was totally in the underground back then. Most of it was very primitive and repetitive and basically just consisted of a fast beat with little or no vocals but the songs really didn't switch up much during the songs. Once folks like Black Box and Crystal Waters started adding vocals and making them sound like completed songs, then they started appearing on R&B mainstream radio for a short while. I discovered shit hop on that same station years before mainstream radio played it. It was nothing but a stripped down slow beat with some talking over it. Well, no, mainstream R&B radio didn't play it because it sounded like a bunch of nothing and didn't even sound like a completed song. It sounded like what it was...a slow beat with some talking over it so no, it didn't deserve to be on mainstream R&B radio. Mainstream R&B radio played rap from day one but only the stuff that deserved to be on there that sounded like an actual song rather than just a boring slow beat with some talking over it. They were also right not to play house in the very beginning until it became more interesting with the vocals and different changing up during the song to where it actually sounded "finished" instead of a work in progress.

.

Where the problem came in though, was when the little white boys discovered the underground shit hop. They liked it because it cussed or whatever and the major labels got their hands on it and got it onto mainstream R&B radio and later onto pop radio. Before that, R&B radio didn't touch it, not because it was rap, because they already played plenty of rap, but because it was a bunch of nothing but a stripped down beat with some talking over it. See, that's the difference between mainstream radio back then. They played the good stuff and kept the bullshit underground. It's the opposite now. They play the bullshit (especially since they discovered that the bullshit was cheaper to make) and keep the good stuff underground. THAT's why we complain because they have become assbackwards and have been assbackwards since they discovered how much money they could save (the labels that is, and without a major label backing you, you don't get the airplay).

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.

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[Edited 2/25/14 20:17pm]

^^You mean you always try to convince people that Whitney Houston destroyed music, when that was not the case. I'm pretty sure not many of the Glenn Miller/Frank Sinatra generation cared about funk or disco, so that music was not good to them. When Ethel Merman made a disco record, she wasn't trying to sell to her regular audience, but a younger audience.

[Edited 2/25/14 20:38pm]

MickyDolenz said:

^^How did people find out about early Sugarhill Gang era rap records though? Very few early hip hop acts made music videos or even albums. It was mainly a 12" single format because many of the songs were long and were not on 45s, which is what most people bought as singles. Rappers generally weren't on TV shows like American Bandstand, Soul Train, or Solid Gold except maybe Kurtis Blow or Blondie doing Rapture. A lot of R&B radio refused to play it at first, and pop radio didn't bother with it. Friday Night Videos came on late, past some kids bedtimes, and mostly showed whatever was already a hit.

Oh really???????

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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdc1EFtt_sI[/youtubue]

.

And where do you think "Soul Train" heard about these groups? They heard it about them through R&B radio and R&B radio played it from the very beginning from Sugarhill Gang's "Rapper's Delight" as well as Fatback's "King Tim III". R&B radio also played Grandmaster Flash and The Furious Five, Kurtis Blow, Whodini, Run DMC, Newcleus, Soul Sonic Force, The Jonzun Crew, Twilight 22, Divine Sounds, Garrrett's Crew, The P Crew, Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde, Rockmaster Scott and The Dynamic Three, The Disco Four, Felix and Jarvis, Egyptian Lover, Pretty Tony, Freestyle, LA Dream Team, World Class Wrecking Crew, Joeski Love, JJ Fad, UTFO, Roxanne Shante, The Real Roxanne, all on mainstream R&B radio. Now, as for the shit hop which was the stripped down slow beat with some talking over it, yes, they kept it out and they should have continued keeping it out. But most stuff that was worthy of making onto mainstream radio, made it onto it back then.

^^I clearly said "very few". Here are some rap records released in 1979 & 1980. How many of them were on TV or radio? Some might have been played in NYC, but not in most other places

1979

Troy Rainey - Tricky Tee Rap
P.J. LaBoy - Baya Latinos
Mr. Q - Love & Time
Mr. Q - Ladies Delight
First Class - Rappin' It Up
Willie Wood & Willie Wood Crew - Willie Rap
Steve Gordon & The Kosher Five - Take My Rap...Please
Sicle Cell & Rhapazooty - Rhapazooty In Blue
Ron Hunt / Ronnie G & The SM Crew - Spiderap / A Corona Jam
Neil B / Brooklyn Express - Body Rock / Body Rock
Dr. Superman & Lady Sweet - Can You Do It (Superman)
Wackies Disco Rock Band - Wack Rap
Scoopy - Scoopy Rap
Eddie Cheba - Lookin' Good (Shake Your Body)
David Lampell - I Ran Iran
Kurtis Blow - Christmas Rappin'
Lady D / MC Tee - Lady D / Nu Sounds
Joe Bataan - Rap-O Clap-O
Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five - Superappin'
Xanadu & Sweet Lady - Rapper's Delight
Family - Family Rap
Bramsam - Move Your Body
Jocko - Rhythm Talk
Lady B - To The Beat Y'All
Uno - Boogie Beat
Spoonin Gee - Spoonin Rap
Mr. Q - D.J. Style
Funky Constellation - Street Talk (Madame Rapper)
Funky Four Plus One More - Rappin' And Rocking The House
The Sequence - Funk You Up
Younger Generation - We Rap More Mellow
Paulette Winley & Tanya Winley - Rhymin' & Rappin'
Jazzy 4 MC's - MC Rock
Sugarhill Gang - Rapper's Delight
Fatback - King Tim III (Personality Jock)

.

1980

Prince Blackman - Rockers Delight
Rickie Clark - Ladies Rights
Max 'N Specs - Don't Come Stoned And Don't Tell Trude
Sugarhill Gang - 8th Wonder
Sugarhill Gang - Hot Hot Summer Day
Margo's Kool Out Crew - Death Rap
Barry & Demo - Your Magic Rap
Phil-Marilyn & Marilyn - Buggs-B-Skate
Mr. Q - Coming Home
Naomi Peterson - Sweet Naomi Rap
Bo Kool - (Money) No Love
Barry & Demo - Another One Bites Rap
M. Brathwaite & W. Carter - Father Goose
Blowfly - The Incredible Fulk
Frederick Davies & Lewis Anton - Astrology Rap
Spoonie Gee Meets The Sequence - Monster Jam
Bobby & Demo - Do It Right (Rap)
Sound On Sound Productions - Tribute To The Greatness
Mr. Magic - Potential 1980
Harlem World Crew - Let's Rock
Dr. York - Roll-A-Rock
Bobby Mann - Body Rockin' Rap
Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five - Freedom
The Big Mouth Band - The Box
Mr. Magic - Rappin' With Mr. Magic
Mr. Fox - Smooth Talk
Sugar Daddy - Another One Bites The Dust
Sharod - School'n (Put Your Mind To The Message)
MC Rock Lovely - One Time Two Time Blow Your Mind
Sweet G - Boogie Feelin' Rap
Danny Renee & The Charisma Crew - Space Rap
Don Juan & K. Dog - Jammin' On The One
Nuri - Let's Vote
Sound On Sound Productions - Season's Greetings
Super 3 - Philosophy Rappin' Spree
Jackie "Small" Cochran - Summer Fun
Otis Williams - I Love The Way You Love Me
Frankie Smith - Double Dutch Bus
Rappermatical 5 - Party People (Remix)
Rappermatical 5 - Party People
Bobby / Demo - More Ounce Rap
The Chill Factor - Keep On Trying
Master Jay - We Are People Too
Tanya Winley - Vicious Rap
Teen-Machine - Teen-Machine Rap
The Jackson Two - Oh Yeah
Johnnie & Michael Hill - Party Night
Treacherous Three - At The Party
The Unknown Rapper - Election 80 Rapp
She / Clappers Revue - Ms. DJ Rap It Up! / Rap It Up Dubwise
Funky Four Plus One More - That's The Joint
The Marvelous Three & The Younger Generation - Rappin' All Over
Afrika Bambaataa & Soul Sonic Force - Zulu Nation Throw Down Volume #2
DJ Hollywood - Shock, Shock The House
Don Covay - Badd Boy
Casper - Groovy Ghost Show
Blowfly - Blowfly's Christmas Party / Blowfly's New Year's Party
Land Of Hits Orchestra / Little Starsky - Gangster Rock
King Monkey - Badd Mann Dann Rapp
The Sequence - And You Know That
Count Coolout - Rhythm Rap Rock
Super-Jay - Santa's Rap Party
South Bronx - The Big Throwdown
Sound On Sound - The Incredible Hump
Ikim & Bacardi - Funk Rap
Sula - Jungle Rap
Blowfly - Rapp Dirty
Disco Dave & The Force Of The 5 MC's [Crash Crew] - High Power Rap
Brother D with Collective Effort - Dib-Be-Dib-Be-Dize / How We Gonna Make The Black Nation Rise?
Treacherous Three - The Body Rock
Afrika Bambaataa & The Cosmic Force / Harlem Underground Band - Zulu Nation Throw Down
Outlaw Four - Million Dollar Legs
Spyder-D - Rollerskaterap / Spinnin' Webs & Rappin' Rhymes
Community People - Education Wrap
Denyce Flip Isaac - Be For Real
Ronnie Jones & Disco Circus - Let's Do It Again / Cosmo Rap
Trickeration - Rap, Bounce, Rockskate / Western Gangster Town
King Tim III - Charley Says! (Roller Boogie Baby)
Super Wolf - Super Wolf Can Do It
Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five - Super Rappin' No.2
Ronnie Gee - Raptivity
Kool Kyle The Starchild & The Disco Dolls - Do You Like That Funky Beat (Ahh Beat Beat)
Mr. B - Rapper - Dapper - B
DJ Hollywood - Hollywood's Message
Harlem World Crew - Rapper's Convention
Lonnie Love - Young Ladies
The Jazzy Three - The Rappin' Spree
The Disco Four - Move To The Groove
CC Crew - CC Crew Rap
Kurtis Blow - The Breaks
Zoot II - Dr. Ice Rap
Black Bird & Kevski - On The Go
Master Jay & Michael Dee - T.S.O.B.
Xanadu / Joe Gibbs & The Professionals - Sure Shot / Do The Dance
Spyder-D - Big Apple Rappin' (National Rappin' Anthem)
Jimmy Spicer - Adventures Of Super Rhyme (Rap)
Spoonie Gee & The Treacherous Three - The New Rap Language / Love Rap
Nice & Nasty 3 - The Ultimate Rap
The Love Rapper - The Lover's Rapp
Dr. Love & Sister Love - Doctor Love & Sister Love Rap
Family Four - Rap Attack

vainandy said:

Gunsnhalen said:

I agree with Mickey 100% on this actually. I call 100% bullshit that people back in the day didn't find good music. Kids who were goth in the early 80's weren't going to see say The Cure for example on MTV. The Cure wasn't a ''mainstream'' thing till the late 80's So, kids had to learn about them through record shops. And shows... and things like that.

Other bands who are beloved today... but weren't huge in their time. Include The Smiths, Sonic Youth, Metallica, Megadeth, Overkill, Venom, Grover Washington JR etc. Just to name a few. They wern't getting big or sometimes any MTV exposure.

How did metal kids learn about Metallica, Slayer, Megadeth, Anthrax, Motorhead, Priest, Maiden? when there video were never played on MTV in the early days. No rock station was playing metal yet.. and it was years before headbangers ball. They had to go to shows, hear word of mouth. or go and discover them at record stores. Many metal guys said they discovered Metallica & Slayer through going to their record store... seeing the cover and saying ''wtf is that''

And, what about the non MTV kids. It was a cable channel.... so i know not EVERYONE had it in the 80's. So, they only had radio play to go on. If there parents or whatever only listened to one or two stations, how would they discover other music? if they were a punk, goth, rockabilly, metal head, funkster etc. They had to search! and it's even easier to search nowadays... you just gotta go to google or fucking youtube. Back in the day it was a lot harder to know if something was good or not. Based on a record sleeve or whatever

So, for those who don't like modern ''mainstream'' and think 00's and 10's are shit and in that mind set. It's 1000 times easier to find new music, then it was in the 80's or 70's.

Uh....he is always listing musical exceptions in these types of threads because he knows there are younger people present who were either very little or weren't born back then and wouldn't know any better. He's always listing some mess like bluegrass, Dixieland, or even some damn snake charmer flute music as if they were ever in the mainstream in the first place. Hell, those were regional music so damn right, the average person had to search for those types of music back then. I swear, I'm starting to think he works for either one of these damn monopoly record labels or one of these monopoly radio owners like Clear Channel or something because he tries his absolute DAMNDEST to try to mislead people into thinking it has always been like this by listing THE most extreme of exceptions. Hell, or instance, I would never list no damn local Jackson funk groups from my area that I grew up listening to such as Sho-Nuff, Freedom, or Wynd Chymes and then try to act is if it has always been the case that people had to search for them since one other orger besides myself had heard of them and he said he had to search for them really hard. Well duh?????? He's not from Jackson so OF COURSE he had to search for them. Actually, there was an orger named 100MPH that had some Sho-Nuff records and he was from overseas somewhere. I'm still baffled how he found those records.

.

As for the metalheads, true enough they may have not been played on MTV until much later but there was always life before MTV and it was called radio. And once MTV did come on the scene, they were always the last to get things anyway. My brother was a metalhead and there was a radio station for it, Z106 and before them, there was ZZQ in the 1970s and early 1980s. No, it wasn't 24 hour a day metal but it was a hard rock station and they played plenty of metal in their format along with their hard rock. Once metal made it onto the pop charts (I can't remember because I'm not heavy into metal but I think it was when Quiet Riot made "Cum On Feel The Noize") then a few metal songs started appearing on the pop stations. The same way the R&B made it onto the pop stations. Each genre made it on their own stations first before they made it onto pop radio and there were stations for every format....hard rock, R&B/funk, and country/western. And when it came to R&B radio, it was a wide variety of it from disco to funk to rap and also unfortunately, adult contemporary R&B (the little bit of it that existed back then before little miss you-know-who influenced a truckload of it to follow).

.

We never had to search for anything because it was all played on the radio right at our fingertips and there was tons of variety on the radio. The mainstream was good back then. Yes, there was always the underground and you did have to search to find the underground. Hell, everything starts as the underground and then eventually made it to the mainstream if it was good enough back then. For instance, I discovered house music on a radio station years before I ever went to a gay club. I found it on a radio station that played a variety of different things throughout the day. In the morning, they played black gospel, in the evening, they played blues, and after midnight, they played reggae. On Saturdays at noon, they had a one hour mix show (beatmixing and blending so you know that was right up my alley). Sometimes they would play a house music mix and that's the first time I heard house music. It was totally in the underground back then. Most of it was very primitive and repetitive and basically just consisted of a fast beat with little or no vocals but the songs really didn't switch up much during the songs. Once folks like Black Box and Crystal Waters started adding vocals and making them sound like completed songs, then they started appearing on R&B mainstream radio for a short while. I discovered shit hop on that same station years before mainstream radio played it. It was nothing but a stripped down slow beat with some talking over it. Well, no, mainstream R&B radio didn't play it because it sounded like a bunch of nothing and didn't even sound like a completed song. It sounded like what it was...a slow beat with some talking over it so no, it didn't deserve to be on mainstream R&B radio. Mainstream R&B radio played rap from day one but only the stuff that deserved to be on there that sounded like an actual song rather than just a boring slow beat with some talking over it. They were also right not to play house in the very beginning until it became more interesting with the vocals and different changing up during the song to where it actually sounded "finished" instead of a work in progress.

.

Where the problem came in though, was when the little white boys discovered the underground shit hop. They liked it because it cussed or whatever and the major labels got their hands on it and got it onto mainstream R&B radio and later onto pop radio. Before that, R&B radio didn't touch it, not because it was rap, because they already played plenty of rap, but because it was a bunch of nothing but a stripped down beat with some talking over it. See, that's the difference between mainstream radio back then. They played the good stuff and kept the bullshit underground. It's the opposite now. They play the bullshit (especially since they discovered that the bullshit was cheaper to make) and keep the good stuff underground. THAT's why we complain because they have become assbackwards and have been assbackwards since they discovered how much money they could save (the labels that is, and without a major label backing you, you don't get the airplay).

.

.

.

[Edited 2/25/14 20:17pm]

I remember the Sho Nuff music that he posted too. Some of them to my

surprise was actually pretty good. Snake charmer flute music.

Here's an excerpt of an interview Kurtis did in 2002:

.

JayQuan: You were the first Emcee on Soul Train?

.

Kurtis Blow: Yes, I was 19 years old....I didn't even lipsync....I had an instrumental on the B side of "The Breaks" and I went live. Don Cornelous dissed rap.....when he introduced me he said "I don't know what all the fuss is about with this rap stuff, but I guess its just my job to introduce it.....Kurtis Blow".....I was like why did he do that on national TV! ? !

.

JQ: How were you treated by your labelmates, being on Polygram/Mercury..when they had Barkays, Rene & Angela and all these people?

.

KB: It was mixed...nobody really understood Hip Hop. But I was the labels last priority. I met a lot of people though everybody...Bob Marley, Commodores, Mick Jagger and the Stones, Michael Jackson.....everyone.

.

JQ: What capacity did you meet Mike in...a club/party, studio or what...and was he cool ?

.

KB: He was real cool, I used to date Latoya for awhile, I was a close freind of the family. I have been in the studio with Jermaine...they were cool people.

Tha Foundation

MickyDolenz said:

^^I clearly said "very few". Here are some rap records released in 1979 & 1980. How many of them were on TV or radio? Some might have been played in NYC, but not in most other places

1979

Troy Rainey - Tricky Tee Rap
P.J. LaBoy - Baya Latinos
Mr. Q - Love & Time
Mr. Q - Ladies Delight
First Class - Rappin' It Up
Willie Wood & Willie Wood Crew - Willie Rap
Steve Gordon & The Kosher Five - Take My Rap...Please
Sicle Cell & Rhapazooty - Rhapazooty In Blue
Ron Hunt / Ronnie G & The SM Crew - Spiderap / A Corona Jam
Neil B / Brooklyn Express - Body Rock / Body Rock
Dr. Superman & Lady Sweet - Can You Do It (Superman)
Wackies Disco Rock Band - Wack Rap
Scoopy - Scoopy Rap
Eddie Cheba - Lookin' Good (Shake Your Body)
David Lampell - I Ran Iran
Kurtis Blow - Christmas Rappin'
Lady D / MC Tee - Lady D / Nu Sounds
Joe Bataan - Rap-O Clap-O
Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five - Superappin'
Xanadu & Sweet Lady - Rapper's Delight
Family - Family Rap
Bramsam - Move Your Body
Jocko - Rhythm Talk
Lady B - To The Beat Y'All
Uno - Boogie Beat
Spoonin Gee - Spoonin Rap
Mr. Q - D.J. Style
Funky Constellation - Street Talk (Madame Rapper)
Funky Four Plus One More - Rappin' And Rocking The House
The Sequence - Funk You Up
Younger Generation - We Rap More Mellow
Paulette Winley & Tanya Winley - Rhymin' & Rappin'
Jazzy 4 MC's - MC Rock
Sugarhill Gang - Rapper's Delight
Fatback - King Tim III (Personality Jock)

.

1980

Prince Blackman - Rockers Delight
Rickie Clark - Ladies Rights
Max 'N Specs - Don't Come Stoned And Don't Tell Trude
Sugarhill Gang - 8th Wonder
Sugarhill Gang - Hot Hot Summer Day
Margo's Kool Out Crew - Death Rap
Barry & Demo - Your Magic Rap
Phil-Marilyn & Marilyn - Buggs-B-Skate
Mr. Q - Coming Home
Naomi Peterson - Sweet Naomi Rap
Bo Kool - (Money) No Love
Barry & Demo - Another One Bites Rap
M. Brathwaite & W. Carter - Father Goose
Blowfly - The Incredible Fulk
Frederick Davies & Lewis Anton - Astrology Rap
Spoonie Gee Meets The Sequence - Monster Jam
Bobby & Demo - Do It Right (Rap)
Sound On Sound Productions - Tribute To The Greatness
Mr. Magic - Potential 1980
Harlem World Crew - Let's Rock
Dr. York - Roll-A-Rock
Bobby Mann - Body Rockin' Rap
Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five - Freedom
The Big Mouth Band - The Box
Mr. Magic - Rappin' With Mr. Magic
Mr. Fox - Smooth Talk
Sugar Daddy - Another One Bites The Dust
Sharod - School'n (Put Your Mind To The Message)
MC Rock Lovely - One Time Two Time Blow Your Mind
Sweet G - Boogie Feelin' Rap
Danny Renee & The Charisma Crew - Space Rap
Don Juan & K. Dog - Jammin' On The One
Nuri - Let's Vote
Sound On Sound Productions - Season's Greetings
Super 3 - Philosophy Rappin' Spree
Jackie "Small" Cochran - Summer Fun
Otis Williams - I Love The Way You Love Me
Frankie Smith - Double Dutch Bus
Rappermatical 5 - Party People (Remix)
Rappermatical 5 - Party People
Bobby / Demo - More Ounce Rap
The Chill Factor - Keep On Trying
Master Jay - We Are People Too
Tanya Winley - Vicious Rap
Teen-Machine - Teen-Machine Rap
The Jackson Two - Oh Yeah
Johnnie & Michael Hill - Party Night
Treacherous Three - At The Party
The Unknown Rapper - Election 80 Rapp
She / Clappers Revue - Ms. DJ Rap It Up! / Rap It Up Dubwise
Funky Four Plus One More - That's The Joint
The Marvelous Three & The Younger Generation - Rappin' All Over
Afrika Bambaataa & Soul Sonic Force - Zulu Nation Throw Down Volume #2
DJ Hollywood - Shock, Shock The House
Don Covay - Badd Boy
Casper - Groovy Ghost Show
Blowfly - Blowfly's Christmas Party / Blowfly's New Year's Party
Land Of Hits Orchestra / Little Starsky - Gangster Rock
King Monkey - Badd Mann Dann Rapp
The Sequence - And You Know That
Count Coolout - Rhythm Rap Rock
Super-Jay - Santa's Rap Party
South Bronx - The Big Throwdown
Sound On Sound - The Incredible Hump
Ikim & Bacardi - Funk Rap
Sula - Jungle Rap
Blowfly - Rapp Dirty
Disco Dave & The Force Of The 5 MC's [Crash Crew] - High Power Rap
Brother D with Collective Effort - Dib-Be-Dib-Be-Dize / How We Gonna Make The Black Nation Rise?
Treacherous Three - The Body Rock
Afrika Bambaataa & The Cosmic Force / Harlem Underground Band - Zulu Nation Throw Down
Outlaw Four - Million Dollar Legs
Spyder-D - Rollerskaterap / Spinnin' Webs & Rappin' Rhymes
Community People - Education Wrap
Denyce Flip Isaac - Be For Real
Ronnie Jones & Disco Circus - Let's Do It Again / Cosmo Rap
Trickeration - Rap, Bounce, Rockskate / Western Gangster Town
King Tim III - Charley Says! (Roller Boogie Baby)
Super Wolf - Super Wolf Can Do It
Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five - Super Rappin' No.2
Ronnie Gee - Raptivity
Kool Kyle The Starchild & The Disco Dolls - Do You Like That Funky Beat (Ahh Beat Beat)
Mr. B - Rapper - Dapper - B
DJ Hollywood - Hollywood's Message
Harlem World Crew - Rapper's Convention
Lonnie Love - Young Ladies
The Jazzy Three - The Rappin' Spree
The Disco Four - Move To The Groove
CC Crew - CC Crew Rap
Kurtis Blow - The Breaks
Zoot II - Dr. Ice Rap
Black Bird & Kevski - On The Go
Master Jay & Michael Dee - T.S.O.B.
Xanadu / Joe Gibbs & The Professionals - Sure Shot / Do The Dance
Spyder-D - Big Apple Rappin' (National Rappin' Anthem)
Jimmy Spicer - Adventures Of Super Rhyme (Rap)
Spoonie Gee & The Treacherous Three - The New Rap Language / Love Rap
Nice & Nasty 3 - The Ultimate Rap
The Love Rapper - The Lover's Rapp
Dr. Love & Sister Love - Doctor Love & Sister Love Rap
Family Four - Rap Attack

Some of those songs actually did make it onto the radio but not every single song is going to make it onto the radio. There is such a thing as good and bad music from every decade and from what I've seen through listening to youtube videos of a lot of stuff that didn't make it on the radio back in the day, some of it should have made it onto the radio but the majority of it that didn't make it, shouldn't have. That goes with every genre, not just rap.

.

Hell, when I came up with the term shit hop, it was in the late 1980s when I started hearing some underground rap that was just simply a stripped down slow beat with some talking over it and then later, I saw that same type of rap come above ground and take over the radio and it's the same type that's still all over the radio today. Shit hop is the type of rap that mainstream radio used to keep out and only played the stuff that sounded like an actual song rather than a bunch of nothing such as a slow beat with some talking over it. But now in the internet age when I listen to a lot of youtube videos of rap songs from the early 1980s that never made it onto radio, I see that there was shit hop even back then but radio had the good taste not to play it because they could see that it was shit even back then. They let a few good songs go overlooked back then but from what I've seen, they made pretty much the right choices back then as to what they played and what they didn't play.

phunkdaddy said:

vainandy said:

Uh....he is always listing musical exceptions in these types of threads because he knows there are younger people present who were either very little or weren't born back then and wouldn't know any better. He's always listing some mess like bluegrass, Dixieland, or even some damn snake charmer flute music as if they were ever in the mainstream in the first place. Hell, those were regional music so damn right, the average person had to search for those types of music back then. I swear, I'm starting to think he works for either one of these damn monopoly record labels or one of these monopoly radio owners like Clear Channel or something because he tries his absolute DAMNDEST to try to mislead people into thinking it has always been like this by listing THE most extreme of exceptions. Hell, or instance, I would never list no damn local Jackson funk groups from my area that I grew up listening to such as Sho-Nuff, Freedom, or Wynd Chymes and then try to act is if it has always been the case that people had to search for them since one other orger besides myself had heard of them and he said he had to search for them really hard. Well duh?????? He's not from Jackson so OF COURSE he had to search for them. Actually, there was an orger named 100MPH that had some Sho-Nuff records and he was from overseas somewhere. I'm still baffled how he found those records.

.

As for the metalheads, true enough they may have not been played on MTV until much later but there was always life before MTV and it was called radio. And once MTV did come on the scene, they were always the last to get things anyway. My brother was a metalhead and there was a radio station for it, Z106 and before them, there was ZZQ in the 1970s and early 1980s. No, it wasn't 24 hour a day metal but it was a hard rock station and they played plenty of metal in their format along with their hard rock. Once metal made it onto the pop charts (I can't remember because I'm not heavy into metal but I think it was when Quiet Riot made "Cum On Feel The Noize") then a few metal songs started appearing on the pop stations. The same way the R&B made it onto the pop stations. Each genre made it on their own stations first before they made it onto pop radio and there were stations for every format....hard rock, R&B/funk, and country/western. And when it came to R&B radio, it was a wide variety of it from disco to funk to rap and also unfortunately, adult contemporary R&B (the little bit of it that existed back then before little miss you-know-who influenced a truckload of it to follow).

.

We never had to search for anything because it was all played on the radio right at our fingertips and there was tons of variety on the radio. The mainstream was good back then. Yes, there was always the underground and you did have to search to find the underground. Hell, everything starts as the underground and then eventually made it to the mainstream if it was good enough back then. For instance, I discovered house music on a radio station years before I ever went to a gay club. I found it on a radio station that played a variety of different things throughout the day. In the morning, they played black gospel, in the evening, they played blues, and after midnight, they played reggae. On Saturdays at noon, they had a one hour mix show (beatmixing and blending so you know that was right up my alley). Sometimes they would play a house music mix and that's the first time I heard house music. It was totally in the underground back then. Most of it was very primitive and repetitive and basically just consisted of a fast beat with little or no vocals but the songs really didn't switch up much during the songs. Once folks like Black Box and Crystal Waters started adding vocals and making them sound like completed songs, then they started appearing on R&B mainstream radio for a short while. I discovered shit hop on that same station years before mainstream radio played it. It was nothing but a stripped down slow beat with some talking over it. Well, no, mainstream R&B radio didn't play it because it sounded like a bunch of nothing and didn't even sound like a completed song. It sounded like what it was...a slow beat with some talking over it so no, it didn't deserve to be on mainstream R&B radio. Mainstream R&B radio played rap from day one but only the stuff that deserved to be on there that sounded like an actual song rather than just a boring slow beat with some talking over it. They were also right not to play house in the very beginning until it became more interesting with the vocals and different changing up during the song to where it actually sounded "finished" instead of a work in progress.

.

Where the problem came in though, was when the little white boys discovered the underground shit hop. They liked it because it cussed or whatever and the major labels got their hands on it and got it onto mainstream R&B radio and later onto pop radio. Before that, R&B radio didn't touch it, not because it was rap, because they already played plenty of rap, but because it was a bunch of nothing but a stripped down beat with some talking over it. See, that's the difference between mainstream radio back then. They played the good stuff and kept the bullshit underground. It's the opposite now. They play the bullshit (especially since they discovered that the bullshit was cheaper to make) and keep the good stuff underground. THAT's why we complain because they have become assbackwards and have been assbackwards since they discovered how much money they could save (the labels that is, and without a major label backing you, you don't get the airplay).

.

.

.

[Edited 2/25/14 20:17pm]

I remember the Sho Nuff music that he posted too. Some of them to my

surprise was actually pretty good. Snake charmer flute music.

Honey, them snake charmer music lovers had to search FAR and WIDE to find some good snake charmer flute music here in America back in the day. DAMN those R&B stations for not playing it!

Damn. The 80s wasn't the stone age. Just because there was no internet access(at least for most people), doesn't mean we didn't have communication. There was public access tv, local radio, syndicated music video shows, record stores, fanzines, and local clubs. Access to music was all around.

Things didn't change until the music industry wanted greater control and certainty over what songs became hits. Corporations started buying all the radio stations in different markets and homogenized the playlists. They also limited the variety of songs in rotation to force hits. Public access tv is mostly gone, local radio is dead, and music video shows are replaced with reality tv. Internet is now the great equalizer for access, but that might change if we continue to lose net neutrality and the corporate internet providers can control access to individual sites.

lrn36 said:

lrn36 said:

Damn. The 80s wasn't the stone age. Just because there was no internet access(at least for most people), doesn't mean we didn't have communication. There was public access tv, local radio, syndicated music video shows, record stores, fanzines, and local clubs. Access to music was all around.

Things didn't change until the music industry wanted greater control and certainty over what songs became hits. Corporations started buying all the radio stations in different markets and homogenized the playlists. They also limited the variety of songs in rotation to force hits. Public access tv is mostly gone, local radio is dead, and music video shows are replaced with reality tv. Internet is now the great equalizer for access, but that might change if we continue to lose net neutrality and the corporate internet providers can control access to individual sites.

like the 80s were the Flintstones...loll

Gunsnhalen said:

Frank Ocean
The Weekend"

Excellent choices

I call 100% bullshit that people back in the day didn't find good music. Kids who were goth in the early 80's weren't going to see say The Cure for example on MTV. The Cure wasn't a ''mainstream'' thing till the late 80's So, kids had to learn about them through record shops. And shows... and things like that.

Other bands who are beloved today... but weren't huge in their time. Include The Smiths, Sonic Youth, Metallica, Megadeth, Overkill, Venom, Grover Washington JR etc. Just to name a few. They wern't getting big or sometimes any MTV exposure.

The thing is Guns, people did find those bands. A very SMALL NUMBER of people who were exceptionally dedicated found them by making a significant effort to seek them out.

It required you to make choices. There wasn't the time or money to follow every kind of music you might possibly enjoy. If you went "metalhead" you probably did not have time to discover obscure funk bands. You had to prioritize.

This is why those communities are still revered by us who were part of them, thirty years later. It was like finding an underground village with stores you'd never been in, where you could be illuminated by secret knowledge. You pretty much HAD to participate if you wanted to know what was up, take the bus to the record store to find out what live shows were coming up. It was fun.

Today, there is no more secret knowledge. Like that Germs album "What We Do Is Secret"... What we do today is not very secret.

I mean Black Flag at the height of their popularity would sell maybe 30,000 copies of a new album while Poison was going multi platinum. On tour, they played to maybe 500 people on a good night. And they were just about the most popular band of their kind.

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I have a question...I know that I don't listen to the radio anymore...but I was wondering if Kids today rely on the radio for most of their music, or is it more of a multi-media thing, like YouTube? I honestly don't know, and was wondering what current statistics show...is Post-Clear Channel radio still the main way for young people to hear new music? just asking.....

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vainandy said:

Gunsnhalen said:

I agree with Mickey 100% on this actually. I call 100% bullshit that people back in the day didn't find good music. Kids who were goth in the early 80's weren't going to see say The Cure for example on MTV. The Cure wasn't a ''mainstream'' thing till the late 80's So, kids had to learn about them through record shops. And shows... and things like that.

Other bands who are beloved today... but weren't huge in their time. Include The Smiths, Sonic Youth, Metallica, Megadeth, Overkill, Venom, Grover Washington JR etc. Just to name a few. They wern't getting big or sometimes any MTV exposure.

How did metal kids learn about Metallica, Slayer, Megadeth, Anthrax, Motorhead, Priest, Maiden? when there video were never played on MTV in the early days. No rock station was playing metal yet.. and it was years before headbangers ball. They had to go to shows, hear word of mouth. or go and discover them at record stores. Many metal guys said they discovered Metallica & Slayer through going to their record store... seeing the cover and saying ''wtf is that''

And, what about the non MTV kids. It was a cable channel.... so i know not EVERYONE had it in the 80's. So, they only had radio play to go on. If there parents or whatever only listened to one or two stations, how would they discover other music? if they were a punk, goth, rockabilly, metal head, funkster etc. They had to search! and it's even easier to search nowadays... you just gotta go to google or fucking youtube. Back in the day it was a lot harder to know if something was good or not. Based on a record sleeve or whatever

So, for those who don't like modern ''mainstream'' and think 00's and 10's are shit and in that mind set. It's 1000 times easier to find new music, then it was in the 80's or 70's.

Uh....he is always listing musical exceptions in these types of threads because he knows there are younger people present who were either very little or weren't born back then and wouldn't know any better. He's always listing some mess like bluegrass, Dixieland, or even some damn snake charmer flute music as if they were ever in the mainstream in the first place. Hell, those were regional music so damn right, the average person had to search for those types of music back then. I swear, I'm starting to think he works for either one of these damn monopoly record labels or one of these monopoly radio owners like Clear Channel or something because he tries his absolute DAMNDEST to try to mislead people into thinking it has always been like this by listing THE most extreme of exceptions. Hell, or instance, I would never list no damn local Jackson funk groups from my area that I grew up listening to such as Sho-Nuff, Freedom, or Wynd Chymes and then try to act is if it has always been the case that people had to search for them since one other orger besides myself had heard of them and he said he had to search for them really hard. Well duh?????? He's not from Jackson so OF COURSE he had to search for them. Actually, there was an orger named 100MPH that had some Sho-Nuff records and he was from overseas somewhere. I'm still baffled how he found those records.

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As for the metalheads, true enough they may have not been played on MTV until much later but there was always life before MTV and it was called radio. And once MTV did come on the scene, they were always the last to get things anyway. My brother was a metalhead and there was a radio station for it, Z106 and before them, there was ZZQ in the 1970s and early 1980s. No, it wasn't 24 hour a day metal but it was a hard rock station and they played plenty of metal in their format along with their hard rock. Once metal made it onto the pop charts (I can't remember because I'm not heavy into metal but I think it was when Quiet Riot made "Cum On Feel The Noize") then a few metal songs started appearing on the pop stations. The same way the R&B made it onto the pop stations. Each genre made it on their own stations first before they made it onto pop radio and there were stations for every format....hard rock, R&B/funk, and country/western. And when it came to R&B radio, it was a wide variety of it from disco to funk to rap and also unfortunately, adult contemporary R&B (the little bit of it that existed back then before little miss you-know-who influenced a truckload of it to follow).

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We never had to search for anything because it was all played on the radio right at our fingertips and there was tons of variety on the radio. The mainstream was good back then. Yes, there was always the underground and you did have to search to find the underground. Hell, everything starts as the underground and then eventually made it to the mainstream if it was good enough back then. For instance, I discovered house music on a radio station years before I ever went to a gay club. I found it on a radio station that played a variety of different things throughout the day. In the morning, they played black gospel, in the evening, they played blues, and after midnight, they played reggae. On Saturdays at noon, they had a one hour mix show (beatmixing and blending so you know that was right up my alley). Sometimes they would play a house music mix and that's the first time I heard house music. It was totally in the underground back then. Most of it was very primitive and repetitive and basically just consisted of a fast beat with little or no vocals but the songs really didn't switch up much during the songs. Once folks like Black Box and Crystal Waters started adding vocals and making them sound like completed songs, then they started appearing on R&B mainstream radio for a short while. I discovered shit hop on that same station years before mainstream radio played it. It was nothing but a stripped down slow beat with some talking over it. Well, no, mainstream R&B radio didn't play it because it sounded like a bunch of nothing and didn't even sound like a completed song. It sounded like what it was...a slow beat with some talking over it so no, it didn't deserve to be on mainstream R&B radio. Mainstream R&B radio played rap from day one but only the stuff that deserved to be on there that sounded like an actual song rather than just a boring slow beat with some talking over it. They were also right not to play house in the very beginning until it became more interesting with the vocals and different changing up during the song to where it actually sounded "finished" instead of a work in progress.

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Where the problem came in though, was when the little white boys discovered the underground shit hop. They liked it because it cussed or whatever and the major labels got their hands on it and got it onto mainstream R&B radio and later onto pop radio. Before that, R&B radio didn't touch it, not because it was rap, because they already played plenty of rap, but because it was a bunch of nothing but a stripped down beat with some talking over it. See, that's the difference between mainstream radio back then. They played the good stuff and kept the bullshit underground. It's the opposite now. They play the bullshit (especially since they discovered that the bullshit was cheaper to make) and keep the good stuff underground. THAT's why we complain because they have become assbackwards and have been assbackwards since they discovered how much money they could save (the labels that is, and without a major label backing you, you don't get the airplay).

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[Edited 2/25/14 20:17pm]

duccichucka said:

babynoz said:

I am sure I have not claimed any such thing. I just think that it's a false equivalent to imply that Prince only ever made vulgar popular songs given the phenomenal diversity of his catalog. Maybe some people only dug his more vulgar work but he has never been limited to making one type of song.

In fact, some of his most popular songs cannot be described as vulgar...Purple Rain, (the song he is actually most known for), is an obvious choice.

Also...

The Beautiful Ones

The Most Beautiful Girl In The World

Sign Of The Times

Seven

1999

Kiss

As far as songs with substance, I can't agree that there are as many artist doing those types of songs as there used to be. If we're talking about Prince, even artists who could be considered his contemporaries were not recording as many songs of substance as he was much less those that came after him.

Those who came before, yes.

That is not to say we didn't have silly songs. Just listen to Joe Tex or the Jimmy Castor Bunch,

But the difference is that the airwaves werent saturated with silliness to the exclusion of everything else. We weren't bombarded with it.

The thing is, before the era of corporate playlists there was more variety in the mainstream. It wasn't a case where people had to go looking for it either. Surely you are aware that most djs used to be able to whatever they felt like playing for the most part and every dj had a different vibe.

First of all, I'm not sure I'm following how you're using the phrase "false equivalent" in the context

of this discussion.

And I didn't mean "you" in particular, but "you" in general, i.e., those who claim that today's main-

stream music is vulgar or lacking substance as if today's mainstream music is utterly and

completely vulgar and/or lacking substance. This is simply not the case. There are plenty of

recording artists today who are releasing music that I, as a musician trained in classical and

jazz, thinks is "good." Those who make these types of claims are probably those who

are not considering that at some point, Prince was also occasionally vulgar ("Sister") and/or

lacking substance (his first two albums). Mozart wrote popular pieces that aren't entirely sub-

stantial ("Twinkle Twinkle Little Star") and I think even Kind of Blue has some parts that are

easily digestible. And apologies to you purists out there, but On the Corner is as vulgar, IMHO,

as it gets (j/k!).

But your claim that the public escaped being bombarded with silliness up until today's mainstream

music is unfounded, Babynoz, along with the notion that DJs used to be able to play whatever

they felt like playing. Where are you getting these ideas from?

You haven't addressed a single point that I made.

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I don't think that with Pop or Rock, much has changed quantitatively... and yes, most people just like what they like....

What can be observed and charted, however, is R&B music over a forty year time period, and the amount of talent it required to produce what amounted to music product. I would argue that currently, someone who isn't particularly talented, but comes up with a catchy chant, and knows their their way around computer software could come up with something that would be acceptable in the current climate. In the current "Urban" climate, you would not need to know how to sing, or how to play an instrument. You would not need a producer who knew the rudiments of music. If they could come up with some beats on a computer, this could essentially be it. If people like that, fine....but it's probably what generations of R&B fans are missing in the curent state.

Pop and Rock music still have a market for bands, or for those who can sing, or play an instrument. This is not a necessity in R&b anymore. That's not to say that people with skill can't have an R&b hits......

I would also say that even in the predominating Hip Hop culture, you would not really have to be a particularly good rapper or beatmeister to get a hit. It has become easier for companies to sell a product, and they have found a way to do it with smaller cost to them, and larger benefit. They have more control of media outlets, technology is widely available--why pay a Quincy Jones , Kenny Gamble or Leon Huff? or Arif Mardin? why have an engineer like Rudy Van Gelder, or Bob Clearmountain?...no need for it now.....

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[Edited 3/5/14 16:24pm]

About my only complaint of today's music is that it seems like it's been aimless for the longest time. This seems to be changing, and I wouldn't be surprised to find a correlation between the quality of a generation's music and what that generation has to say. If today's generation only has things like "Boom Boom Pow" and all that to say, we're screwed.

But the caveat to this question is that just like people from a generation or two ago complain about the music that's out today, so did their parents complain about the music they listened to, and so on and so on. Everyone thinks their day was the hey day and that nothing that comes after is worth anything.

paligap said:

...

I don't think that with Pop or Rock, much has changed quantitatively... and yes, most people just like what they like....

What can be observed and charted, however, is R&B music over a forty year time period, and the amount of talent it required to produce what amounted to music product. I would argue that currently, someone who isn't particularly talented, but comes up with a catchy chant, and knows their their way around computer software could come up with something that would be acceptable in the current climate. In the current "Urban" climate, you would not need to know how to sing, or how to play an instrument. You would not need a producer who knew the rudiments of music. If they could come up with some beats on a computer, this could essentially be it. If people like that, fine....but it's probably what generations of R&B fans are missing in the curent state.

Pop and Rock music still have a market for bands, or for those who can sing, or play an instrument. This is not a necessity in R&b anymore. That's not to say that people with skill can't have an R&b hits......

I would also say that even in the predominating Hip Hop culture, you would not really have to be a particularly good rapper or beatmeister to get a hit. It has become easier for companies to sell a product, and they have found a way to do it with smaller cost to them, and larger benefit. They have more control of media outlets, technology is widely available--why pay a Quincy Jones , Kenny Gamble or Leon Huff? or Arif Mardin? why have an engineer like Rudy Van Gelder, or Bob Clearmountain?...no need for it now.....

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[Edited 3/5/14 16:24pm]

My kids are 27 and 35 so I'll get clowned for being an oldster but I often tell them that without electricity most of these mofos out today would be utterly lost...just unplug everything and it's a wrap,

Anytime I think that even I could come up with a song in todays climate and sell it you know we are in big trouble.