She was working with Stephen Bray long before she got to New York and cut that album. Her very beginnings were in disco. It's not that "it took a black producer" - its that her work has always been deeply rooted in the sounds of the counterculture, which is where most black music went after new wave took over. | |
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Dr Bell whats Tina got to with Madonna
[img:$uid]http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa149/bellaowen/x_d8b338e0.jpg[/img:$uid]
like chalk and cheese | |
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Because they were damn good duh. | |
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Madonna never 'sounded black' herself, but those early songs did. I think in the early 1980s, before the explosion of the music video, black music listeners tended to not think much about the color of who passed through black radio. If they were playing it, listeners probably assumed they were black. And even if they knew the truth, it didn't much matter, because it was more about the sound, rather than the face. (Actually, that's how the whole music scene was before MTV's popularity exploded...Christopher Cross was huge in the early 80s, but the music video severely handicapped his career because he looked like Dan Connor.)
I can remember being about 4 years old and hearing "Borderline" blasted on someone's radio outside. At the time I lived in a black neighborhood, so it's more likely they were blasting a black radio station rather than a top 40/pop. I think back then it was just more about the music. She made black music and it got played on black radio. For a little while, even after it was known that she was white, she had earned a little bit of 'credit,' to keep her urban airplay and videos playing on BET. Hell, even the poppy "Like a Virgin" cracked the R&B top 10.
But when the 'Madonna explosion' of 1985 happened, her sound and audience got more and more "white" (and WB pandered her pop radio) and she lost any initial black credit she may have had, and never really got it back. Meanwhile, Whitney and Janet were waiting in the wings, and when they emerged, black radio really didn't need Madonna anymore at the point.
Madonna's music retained recurring R&B-tinged elements all the way up until the mid 90s, and I think she (not knowing the politics of race and music) went another decade thinking that she had more urban-listener credibility than she did. | |
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She said she didn't want a career like Teena Marie (meaning an r&b career only). She wanted to have a bigger audience so she could make more money. I don't think it was an actual diss to Lady T. "Keep in mind that I'm an artist...and I'm sensitive about my shit."--E. Badu | |
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While I really like the Erotica project, it comes across to me as if she is really out of touch with what she thought was her urban market. Putting Big Daddy Kane and Naomi Campbell in your video juxtaposed with images of you having some sort of lesbian relationship with a mother-figure is not going to really speak to that audience, I don't think. | |
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and check this thread about it form a few eyars ago on this forum and how it jumped off lol
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^^^Thanks.
Copy/Paste worthy:
"Once I read an interview with Madonna where she talked about her envy of black culture, where she stated that she wanted to be black as a child. It is a sign of white privilege to be able to "see" blackness and black culture from a standpoint where only the rich culture of opposition black people have created in resistance marks and defines us. Such a perspective enables one to ignore white supremacist domination and the hurt it inflicts via oppression, exploitation, and everyday wounds and pains. White folks who do not see black pain never really understand the complexity of black pleasure. And it is no wonder then that when they attempt to imitate the joy in living which they see as the "essence" of soul and blackness, their cultural productions may have an air of sham and falseness that may titillate and even move white audiences yet leave many black folks cold..."
NuPwrSoul:
Just, wow. | |
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Thanks! I like reading intelligent and insightful responses. But the one thing that is missing from all of this is Madonna's intent.
Intent is important. In the healthcare world (claims, billing, etc.), there is fraud and abuse. What's the difference? Intent. The actions may be the same but with fraud, the intent is to decieve. With abuse, the person may just be ignorant of the proper procedures.
I think Madonna is genuinely interested in other cultures. When she moved to New York, she mainly lived with blacks and latinos because she, like them, was poor. She drew from their styles and they probably drew from hers. "Keep in mind that I'm an artist...and I'm sensitive about my shit."--E. Badu | |
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Why is she so obsessed with Madonna? and there was nothing racist or 'white supremacist' about Madonna's comments either. [Edited 4/22/11 17:01pm] | |
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'everybody' is actually the only madonna song i really like... that and 'over and over' and 'i know it'. but 'everybody' is the jam! i didn't think she sounded black at all, ESPECIALLY when you hear the demo for that track. | |
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yes it was a 12" first... the song was added to the album as an afterthought. it was actually the best song on the album to me. but the 12" version is hot! it's the only madonna song i will really play on the turntable. i actually love the dub version as well. the cover of the 12" looks like a collage of sorts. | |
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yes, yes... and yes. exactly. | |
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This what happens when an academic tackles an intriguing topic, over-thinks it and bores/befuddles the reader to tears. Hey... | |
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Her debut was NOT a great album. I can't even listen to that crap anymore except for three songs (Borderline, Holiday and Burning Up) I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think. | |
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Co-sign I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think. | |
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This whole article is rendered moot by the introduction od Rhiahna and BWeave. Space for sale... | |
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Over-thought, Pedantic conjecture. You're a real fucker. You act like you own this place--ParanoidAndroid <-- about as witty as this princess gets! I hope everyone pays more attention to Sags posts--sweething Jesus weeps | |
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KemiVA said:
This what happens when an academic tackles an intriguing topic, over-thinks it and bores/befuddles the reader to tears. Space for sale... | |
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@ that article. I'm all for constructive reading but this was a little ridiculous. Reminds me of scholars who have a point but then overstate it as if it'll make sense. Least that's how I look at it... | |
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It's not worth reading, and I'm sorry I did.
The author assumes not just Madonna's motives for her image, but the gay communities' motives for embracing her, and the blanket statements expressing that white feminine beauty is usually only obtained through hard work (ie, white beauty is an illusion), and that the gay community embraces Madonna partly because they also embrace this ideal of a 'fake beauty obtained through hard work' is pure conjecture. She uses language like "obsessed", etc. etc. How does she know Madonna's obsessed?
It's like reading something from someone who's stumbled upon a thesaurus, but still believes in fairy tales--sort of like the garbage you have to sift through with these new "intellectual" ntelligent design folks. I bursted out laughing at "Phallic patriarchal heterosexism", not because it doesn't exist, but in context of her pedantic diatribe, and the fact her words relate to Madonna. Madonna!
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[Edited 4/24/11 10:02am] You're a real fucker. You act like you own this place--ParanoidAndroid <-- about as witty as this princess gets! I hope everyone pays more attention to Sags posts--sweething Jesus weeps | |
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Oh, for fuck's sake. This old thing again?
There have been numerous threads on the org alone about it in the last decade. | |
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Bwahahahahah!! She had a black relative in the 1700's, therefore she's black?? Holy shit I thought I'd heard everything. Ask any Italian if the one-drop rule applies to them regarding the Moors. I think you'll hear a very different perspective. And given that Madonna is Italian, I'd love to hear if the rest of her family thinks that they're black. | |
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Oh get off your high horse. bell hooks' cultural criticism of Madonna makes great discussions. [Edited 4/24/11 14:41pm] | |
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meh..
who has time to listen or read this garbage?
not me
Madonna was Madonna and not even Lady Gaga will be as good as or original as she was Prince - not black, not white........just COOL | |
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LOL! Or when they obtain a pedigree within certain circles and constantly have to continue to justify it.
As the saying goes, "when you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bulls**t. Prince, in you I found a kindred spirit...Rest In Paradise. | |
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There was a brief period back then when cross-over music went both ways. Quite a few non black artists were being played on black radio as I recall.
I was never a big Madonna fan but I liked most of her early work just going by what I heard. I had no idea who she was or what she looked like. Prince, in you I found a kindred spirit...Rest In Paradise. | |
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Her earlier songs were black sounding ……lol | |
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Nu's observations of Madonna as an appropriator of trends and subcultures is actually better written than Hooks' lengthy, meandering essay.
I would ask Hooks how many people actually have the quality of empathy necessary to really internalize the essence of another's experiential knowlege? Not many, I would think. As Nu suggests, Madonna's patronizing a particular trend for commercial benefit is not unusual.
stickler for spelling edit. [Edited 4/24/11 16:22pm] Prince, in you I found a kindred spirit...Rest In Paradise. | |
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