motownlover said:

who else has learned to apreciate invincible more after the release of michael?

i now think it wassent that bad of a release if it werent for the up tempo tracks.

butterflies break of dawn , heaven can wait what ever happens are all beautifull to me

The ballads are what made that album. I still dig it. Especially "Break of Dawn" and "Heaven Can Wait". "Don't Walk Away" is another favorite. He sang from his gut on there in some parts.

mozfonky said:

MJJstudent said:

thanks for responding... my question to you after reading this is if you know of any groups or individuals (outside of professional circles) who are into these deep ongoing discussions. michael needs to be thought of as part of the cultural framework as much as say, presidents or other figures. because he is such an umbrella for many of our socio-political mores.

again, this is why i don't respond on this forum too much (unless it's stuff like this) because i know most people aren't into michael in the same way i am. it makes me very sad as it's isolating, but i've accepted that. the only thing we can do is speak on michael from our own perspectives, but that's what i'm interested in.

i'm personally not interested in the cascio stuff, since i know it's fake, and again, i don't want anything to do with posthumous business. it's not respectful of michael as a teacher, so i choose not to focus on it. and yes, i am aware of the many articles written about michael as a teacher, or as a great political force but AGAIN! those people are sitting in a little bubble not communicating with the 'little people'.

i am searching for 'everyday people'- NOT paid professionals or journalists, to connect with. it's sad that i only am seeing these writings from journalists or professors. are there people outside of these fields who look at michael in the same way? are there any other advocates who look at him as a teacher? who look at him as a socio-political figure?

I'm sure there are and with the internet, the oppurtunity is there to do these things but for the most part, any forums on ANY subject have a hodgepodge of posters, some good, some bad some just only interested in one thing or another but not the bigger picture, that's really hard to find. Also, hate to say it, but on most of the forums I post on whites vastly outnumber everyone else for whatever reason so lots of things which wouldn't be of interest do not get discussed. That wouldn't be the case here but I think it is elsewhere. I like the great work that authors and thinkers do, it helps me to come up with my OWN ideas of who I think these men were, usually more and less than what all the authors say. Michael as a teacher? I don't know, Elvis as a teacher? I try to learn from people's triumphs and tragedies in my own life,in my own way. But I don't believe in heroes or teachers as such anymore. That's just my personal take.

why can't elvis (presley or costello- or mitchell) be a teacher? if we've found some value in what they've contributed in the world and we've learned something significant from them, i'd say they can be just as effective a teacher as anyone else licensed to do so. to me, teachers are not about hierarchies. the idea of teaching and learning are reciprocal- the best teachers allow room for questioning them.

we all have the ability to be teachers... children indeed are the best teachers.

i happen to consider michael my life's teacher- i learned a whole lot about myself in learning about him. there are many teachings in his art. to me, 'another part of me' is his greatest teaching, which speaks of the universal laws. the thing about a great teacher is that they continue teachings which have resonated for centuries; they just do it their way.

i see no reason for separating yourself from other thinkers who get paid for it. they were in the same position as you. they are no better than you or i. this is why i emphasize a connection with non-professionals on these things. we have to get rid of the social castes in terms of professions. this is another thing which made michael such a great teacher. he was highly competitive, but was indeed humble in many ways.

Timmy84 said:

@mozfonky I kinda don't either. But I do believe some artists have some purpose. Sometimes we may overstate it but they have a purpose one way or another... after going over their personal lives, they're just as messy as we are...

ya, and I do say those things idealistically, that is to say, if I were to meet Prince, i'd become a 15 year old fan again, no doubt. But experience has taught me that you have to seperate the the art from the artist. Does Springsteen really care about the working Poor? I doubt it but his best art speaks to me. Dylan has always been a bastard but that doesn't stop a lot of people from connecting to his music. And I do wonder if a Marvin, or and Elvis or a Michael was a predestined type of figure, I mean, lots of talent, lots of people, why them, why their meaning? It just seems fated.

mozfonky said:

Timmy84 said:

@mozfonky I kinda don't either. But I do believe some artists have some purpose. Sometimes we may overstate it but they have a purpose one way or another... after going over their personal lives, they're just as messy as we are...

ya, and I do say those things idealistically, that is to say, if I were to meet Prince, i'd become a 15 year old fan again, no doubt. But experience has taught me that you have to seperate the the art from the artist. Does Springsteen really care about the working Poor? I doubt it but his best art speaks to me. Dylan has always been a bastard but that doesn't stop a lot of people from connecting to his music. And I do wonder if a Marvin, or and Elvis or a Michael was a predestined type of figure, I mean, lots of talent, lots of people, why them, why their meaning? It just seems fated.

Militant said:

I've never in my life seen another person who radiates as much love, hope and positivity as Michael. You can feel it in your heart when you look at him and he never fails to put me in a positive mood.

Why is it that some people don't see it or do they deliberately ignore it? I wish that more people in the world.... could take inspiration from that and strive on a daily basis to be that pure and positive.

It's 5.30am... my insomnia is running wild, I've been depressed for hours for personal reasons... and yet, I come in this thread, watch a few clips, and suddenly my mood just lifts and I'm smiling. As always... thank you, Michael. I love you and I miss you.

I totally know what you mean. I put Stevie Wonder in that category. There's.....something about them, an aura that just radiates love and I wonder why other people don't "get it".

After Michael passed, I wrote something that during the last few years of his life, you saw that he brought the best and the worst in some people and with the worst, it was downright UGLY in some. You can call it whatever you want, but it's definitely something in some people.

I'll never forget the night I went to see This Is It. For someone who in the past got teased and insulted (and had to punk people ) because Michael Jackson was a hero of his, what I saw was surprising to me. I walked in to the theater. I saw black, white, samoan, asian, latino, young, and old... I saw a terminally ill woman who wheeled in an oxygen tank with her and sat in the front row. People were dancing in the aisles, singing along... a beautiful atmosphere. I've never seen that before and I sat back and simply smiled

Timmy84 said:

motownlover said:

who else has learned to apreciate invincible more after the release of michael?

i now think it wassent that bad of a release if it werent for the up tempo tracks.

butterflies break of dawn , heaven can wait what ever happens are all beautifull to me

The ballads are what made that album. I still dig it. Especially "Break of Dawn" and "Heaven Can Wait". "Don't Walk Away" is another favorite. He sang from his gut on there in some parts.

i prefer the ballads in michael's catalog overall... i also prefer the political/message songs over the romantic/sexual songs. but for some reason, i didn't mind the fact that the majority of songs in invincible were about romantic love. it's actually one of my top four favourite albums (i've gotten laughed at for this before)... i think it's because his delivery had a maturity rarely heard in michael albums prior. i think fatherhood may have contributed to this, i cannot say.

but 'break of dawn', 'heaven can wait', 'whatever happens' and 'don't walk away' for sure are amazing. it was as if he grew to be a beautiful swan, so to speak. and sadly, it was his swan song...

[img:$uid]http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/12600000/1979-Ebony-Magazine-the-jackson-5-12610708-555-800.jpg[/img:$uid]

MJJstudent said:

Timmy84 said:

Right and even if we wanted to know what made so and so click, we're never gonna get the FULL understanding. It's probably best to keep it that way.

it's not about getting a full understanding of michael (at least, since most of us don't personally know him); however, to me it's about making those connections, as most of us here in the u.s. are conditioned under a colonialist, corporatist culture... how are artists like michael relating to this conditioning? how do they strive to break free from it, or do they? michael is no better than any of us. these are the discussions which i think need to be had, outside of a professional field. we need to be talking about these issues in our communities.

this is why the HIStory album is such an important piece in the dialog... this album is a direct challenge to these structures, borne out of the 1993 case in which he was accused of endangering a child. the fact that an album calling out the structure of corporatism supposedly due to this singular experience lends to larger issues of michael's place in the power scheme.

how does michael's art shape our own experiences under these conditions? if we choose not to discuss these issues, we'll continue to be ruled by the hand of corporatist/colonialist culture. THIS is one of the discussions i'd love to have, but i realize it will not be successful here, so i don't do it. i will just actively seek this discussion elsewhere.

i'm just openly letting you know where i stand. thanks...

Yeah, lots of questions I have too, about Michael, black folk and America. Lots of stuff there aren't really answers for yet, but give it time, people will come forward with more truths (and lies of course). I'd like to know what exactly happened to make Michael, a guy who grew up at the peak of the Black is Beautiful movement and no doubt got lots of personal reinforcement felt it so necessary to sculpt his features the way he did. Why are black people so forgiving? Why do they allow their Tupacs, their Malcolms their Michaels fall when there is so much love out here for them. Is it a case of learned helplessness? Is it a reflection of their own lives? A million things like that would interest me.

ironically, with my two favourite artists in the whole world, i get the opposite effect when seeing or listening to them. with STEVIE, even when he's doing a song like 'feeding off the love of the land' or 'evil' i see a glow of optimism... i feel pure joy when i see or hear him. but when i see or hear michael i feel sadness, which has nothing to do with his transition.

go figure.

in terms of artists, i think the intent is what's most important. if an artist is sincere in their art (especially if the actions match the lyrics) then many are able to connect with them as artists.

mozfonky said:

MJJstudent said:

it's not about getting a full understanding of michael (at least, since most of us don't personally know him); however, to me it's about making those connections, as most of us here in the u.s. are conditioned under a colonialist, corporatist culture... how are artists like michael relating to this conditioning? how do they strive to break free from it, or do they? michael is no better than any of us. these are the discussions which i think need to be had, outside of a professional field. we need to be talking about these issues in our communities.

this is why the HIStory album is such an important piece in the dialog... this album is a direct challenge to these structures, borne out of the 1993 case in which he was accused of endangering a child. the fact that an album calling out the structure of corporatism supposedly due to this singular experience lends to larger issues of michael's place in the power scheme.

how does michael's art shape our own experiences under these conditions? if we choose not to discuss these issues, we'll continue to be ruled by the hand of corporatist/colonialist culture. THIS is one of the discussions i'd love to have, but i realize it will not be successful here, so i don't do it. i will just actively seek this discussion elsewhere.

i'm just openly letting you know where i stand. thanks...

Yeah, lots of questions I have too, about Michael, black folk and America. Lots of stuff there aren't really answers for yet, but give it time, people will come forward with more truths (and lies of course). I'd like to know what exactly happened to make Michael, a guy who grew up at the peak of the Black is Beautiful movement and no doubt got lots of personal reinforcement felt it so necessary to sculpt his features the way he did. Why are black people so forgiving? Why do they allow their Tupacs, their Malcolms their Michaels fall when there is so much love out here for them. Is it a case of learned helplessness? Is it a reflection of their own lives? A million things like that would interest me.

I don't know why folks even do that... I wanted to say idiots but I'd be looking like a fool...

mozfonky said:

MJJstudent said:

it's not about getting a full understanding of michael (at least, since most of us don't personally know him); however, to me it's about making those connections, as most of us here in the u.s. are conditioned under a colonialist, corporatist culture... how are artists like michael relating to this conditioning? how do they strive to break free from it, or do they? michael is no better than any of us. these are the discussions which i think need to be had, outside of a professional field. we need to be talking about these issues in our communities.

this is why the HIStory album is such an important piece in the dialog... this album is a direct challenge to these structures, borne out of the 1993 case in which he was accused of endangering a child. the fact that an album calling out the structure of corporatism supposedly due to this singular experience lends to larger issues of michael's place in the power scheme.

how does michael's art shape our own experiences under these conditions? if we choose not to discuss these issues, we'll continue to be ruled by the hand of corporatist/colonialist culture. THIS is one of the discussions i'd love to have, but i realize it will not be successful here, so i don't do it. i will just actively seek this discussion elsewhere.

i'm just openly letting you know where i stand. thanks...

Yeah, lots of questions I have too, about Michael, black folk and America. Lots of stuff there aren't really answers for yet, but give it time, people will come forward with more truths (and lies of course). I'd like to know what exactly happened to make Michael, a guy who grew up at the peak of the Black is Beautiful movement and no doubt got lots of personal reinforcement felt it so necessary to sculpt his features the way he did. Why are black people so forgiving? Why do they allow their Tupacs, their Malcolms their Michaels fall when there is so much love out here for them. Is it a case of learned helplessness? Is it a reflection of their own lives? A million things like that would interest me.

all good questions... in terms of the plastic surgery and rhinoplasty, whenever he was asked about it he would refer to how his father treated him, and told him that his features were ugly... i suppose the one person he wanted personal reinforcement from never gave it to him in the way he wished to receive it.

i grew up in the same way as michael (being told the same things by a person who was supposed to love and support and guide you) so i'm not mad at him at all for doing all that. i empathise.

MJJstudent said:

mozfonky said:

I'm sure there are and with the internet, the oppurtunity is there to do these things but for the most part, any forums on ANY subject have a hodgepodge of posters, some good, some bad some just only interested in one thing or another but not the bigger picture, that's really hard to find. Also, hate to say it, but on most of the forums I post on whites vastly outnumber everyone else for whatever reason so lots of things which wouldn't be of interest do not get discussed. That wouldn't be the case here but I think it is elsewhere. I like the great work that authors and thinkers do, it helps me to come up with my OWN ideas of who I think these men were, usually more and less than what all the authors say. Michael as a teacher? I don't know, Elvis as a teacher? I try to learn from people's triumphs and tragedies in my own life,in my own way. But I don't believe in heroes or teachers as such anymore. That's just my personal take.

why can't elvis (presley or costello- or mitchell) be a teacher? if we've found some value in what they've contributed in the world and we've learned something significant from them, i'd say they can be just as effective a teacher as anyone else licensed to do so. to me, teachers are not about hierarchies. the idea of teaching and learning are reciprocal- the best teachers allow room for questioning them.

we all have the ability to be teachers... children indeed are the best teachers.

i happen to consider michael my life's teacher- i learned a whole lot about myself in learning about him. there are many teachings in his art. to me, 'another part of me' is his greatest teaching, which speaks of the universal laws. the thing about a great teacher is that they continue teachings which have resonated for centuries; they just do it their way.

i see no reason for separating yourself from other thinkers who get paid for it. they were in the same position as you. they are no better than you or i. this is why i emphasize a connection with non-professionals on these things. we have to get rid of the social castes in terms of professions. this is another thing which made michael such a great teacher. he was highly competitive, but was indeed humble in many ways.

Well, in my life, I've been under some strong influences and learned the hard way that it's not good to give up so much of your self to anyone. I don't like teachers anymore and reject any offers I get, and as long as some jackass can make money they want to put themselves in that position. But Elvis or Michael never wanted to be a teacher, neither was particularly good in academia, I think their music at it's peak was meant to be what we are to be challenged by, but the men themselves, I don't think they really meant to be seen as teachers or leaders, even though there are some similarities. I'm a musician, I learned a million things from all my heroes but it's my responsibility to filter all of that through my own spirit and come up with my own voice. I also try to learn in my own tiny way from their mistakes and follies, things where there egos led them astray or they didn't know when and how to fight like hell and for the right reasons. I try to feel good about myself even though I'm a failure, I did learn, I never let anyone walk over me, use me abuse me and likewise, I never stopped believing in my talent, hard work and music itself. Other than that, I'm sure these men, if they were here, would tell you not to look up to them that way.

bboy87 said:

Militant said:

I've never in my life seen another person who radiates as much love, hope and positivity as Michael. You can feel it in your heart when you look at him and he never fails to put me in a positive mood.

Why is it that some people don't see it or do they deliberately ignore it? I wish that more people in the world.... could take inspiration from that and strive on a daily basis to be that pure and positive.

It's 5.30am... my insomnia is running wild, I've been depressed for hours for personal reasons... and yet, I come in this thread, watch a few clips, and suddenly my mood just lifts and I'm smiling. As always... thank you, Michael. I love you and I miss you.

I totally know what you mean. I put Stevie Wonder in that category. There's.....something about them, an aura that just radiates love and I wonder why other people don't "get it".

After Michael passed, I wrote something that during the last few years of his life, you saw that he brought the best and the worst in some people and with the worst, it was downright UGLY in some. You can call it whatever you want, but it's definitely something in some people.

I'll never forget the night I went to see This Is It. For someone who in the past got teased and insulted (and had to punk people ) because Michael Jackson was a hero of his, what I saw was surprising to me. I walked in to the theater. I saw black, white, samoan, asian, latino, young, and old... I saw a terminally ill woman who wheeled in an oxygen tank with her and sat in the front row. People were dancing in the aisles, singing along... a beautiful atmosphere. I've never seen that before and I sat back and simply smiled

Few artists have been able to accomplish this. I'm still awaiting for any of today's artists to attract that same attention.

Timmy84 said:

mozfonky said:

Yeah, lots of questions I have too, about Michael, black folk and America. Lots of stuff there aren't really answers for yet, but give it time, people will come forward with more truths (and lies of course). I'd like to know what exactly happened to make Michael, a guy who grew up at the peak of the Black is Beautiful movement and no doubt got lots of personal reinforcement felt it so necessary to sculpt his features the way he did. Why are black people so forgiving? Why do they allow their Tupacs, their Malcolms their Michaels fall when there is so much love out here for them. Is it a case of learned helplessness? Is it a reflection of their own lives? A million things like that would interest me.

I don't know why folks even do that... I wanted to say idiots but I'd be looking like a fool...

well, i'll put it another way, if an Elvis or a Springsteen were in some of those positions meaning loads of bullshit in my opinion, white people would kill someone, so would many other groups (mine included) no diss black folk, I love you but I don't always understand.

mozfonky said:

MJJstudent said:

why can't elvis (presley or costello- or mitchell) be a teacher? if we've found some value in what they've contributed in the world and we've learned something significant from them, i'd say they can be just as effective a teacher as anyone else licensed to do so. to me, teachers are not about hierarchies. the idea of teaching and learning are reciprocal- the best teachers allow room for questioning them.

we all have the ability to be teachers... children indeed are the best teachers.

i happen to consider michael my life's teacher- i learned a whole lot about myself in learning about him. there are many teachings in his art. to me, 'another part of me' is his greatest teaching, which speaks of the universal laws. the thing about a great teacher is that they continue teachings which have resonated for centuries; they just do it their way.

i see no reason for separating yourself from other thinkers who get paid for it. they were in the same position as you. they are no better than you or i. this is why i emphasize a connection with non-professionals on these things. we have to get rid of the social castes in terms of professions. this is another thing which made michael such a great teacher. he was highly competitive, but was indeed humble in many ways.

Well, in my life, I've been under some strong influences and learned the hard way that it's not good to give up so much of your self to anyone. I don't like teachers anymore and reject any offers I get, and as long as some jackass can make money they want to put themselves in that position. But Elvis or Michael never wanted to be a teacher, neither was particularly good in academia, I think their music at it's peak was meant to be what we are to be challenged by, but the men themselves, I don't think they really meant to be seen as teachers or leaders, even though there are some similarities. I'm a musician, I learned a million things from all my heroes but it's my responsibility to filter all of that through my own spirit and come up with my own voice. I also try to learn in my own tiny way from their mistakes and follies, things where there egos led them astray or they didn't know when and how to fight like hell and for the right reasons. I try to feel good about myself even though I'm a failure, I did learn, I never let anyone walk over me, use me abuse me and likewise, I never stopped believing in my talent, hard work and music itself. Other than that, I'm sure these men, if they were here, would tell you not to look up to them that way.

this is the point i have been trying to state- but i guess i'm not stating it well... NEVER relegate teachers to academics. teachers exist all around us. again: we can learn from anyone- children, birds, cats... we ALL have the ability to become teachers. it is not about sitting in an institution and pointing at a board. the world is a teacher.

we are way to conditioned to the idea of teaching... we've learned to accept the hierarchies.

the thing is, james brown, fred astaire, charlie chaplin, berry gordy, diana ross, etc. were all teachers to michael. he has acknowledged this. no, they were not in a classroom with him, but they taught him a lot about life. he utilized something from them in which he learned. that's all teaching is.

why is it we don't accept ourselves as teachers. just think, you may be teaching someone RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT without realizing it. true teachers do not separate themselves or find themselves better than anyone else. i don't think michael would oppose anyone calling him a teacher. teachings are not always relegated to academics either.

as i also keep stating, michael's art are series of lessons. to me, he is the greatest teacher, for many reasons i have written about in the past.

mozfonky said:

Timmy84 said:

I don't know why folks even do that... I wanted to say idiots but I'd be looking like a fool...

well, i'll put it another way, if an Elvis or a Springsteen were in some of those positions meaning loads of bullshit in my opinion, white people would kill someone, so would many other groups (mine included) no diss black folk, I love you but I don't always understand.

Every time I hear this, I'm like... But I don't think they would get into that pile of shit that surrounded Michael... don't know why. It's confusing.

[Edited 4/19/11 23:51pm]

Timmy84 said:

mozfonky said:

well, i'll put it another way, if an Elvis or a Springsteen were in some of those positions meaning loads of bullshit in my opinion, white people would kill someone, so would many other groups (mine included) no diss black folk, I love you but I don't always understand.

Every time I hear this, I'm like... But I don't think they would get into that pile of shit that surrounded Michael... don't know why. It's confusing.

[Edited 4/19/11 23:51pm]

Of course they wouldn't but if they hypothetically did, you'd see some crazy fucks coming out. Lets see the most famous chinaman, or korean or whatever attacked, there'd be hell to pay. People protect what they love.

MJJstudent said:

mozfonky said:

Well, in my life, I've been under some strong influences and learned the hard way that it's not good to give up so much of your self to anyone. I don't like teachers anymore and reject any offers I get, and as long as some jackass can make money they want to put themselves in that position. But Elvis or Michael never wanted to be a teacher, neither was particularly good in academia, I think their music at it's peak was meant to be what we are to be challenged by, but the men themselves, I don't think they really meant to be seen as teachers or leaders, even though there are some similarities. I'm a musician, I learned a million things from all my heroes but it's my responsibility to filter all of that through my own spirit and come up with my own voice. I also try to learn in my own tiny way from their mistakes and follies, things where there egos led them astray or they didn't know when and how to fight like hell and for the right reasons. I try to feel good about myself even though I'm a failure, I did learn, I never let anyone walk over me, use me abuse me and likewise, I never stopped believing in my talent, hard work and music itself. Other than that, I'm sure these men, if they were here, would tell you not to look up to them that way.

this is the point i have been trying to state- but i guess i'm not stating it well... NEVER relegate teachers to academics. teachers exist all around us. again: we can learn from anyone- children, birds, cats... we ALL have the ability to become teachers. it is not about sitting in an institution and pointing at a board. the world is a teacher.

we are way to conditioned to the idea of teaching... we've learned to accept the hierarchies.

the thing is, james brown, fred astaire, charlie chaplin, berry gordy, diana ross, etc. were all teachers to michael. he has acknowledged this. no, they were not in a classroom with him, but they taught him a lot about life. he utilized something from them in which he learned. that's all teaching is.

why is it we don't accept ourselves as teachers. just think, you may be teaching someone RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT without realizing it. true teachers do not separate themselves or find themselves better than anyone else. i don't think michael would oppose anyone calling him a teacher. teachings are not always relegated to academics either.

as i also keep stating, michael's art are series of lessons. to me, he is the greatest teacher, for many reasons i have written about in the past.

ok, but for myself, i'll give you an example, I was a pretty talented boxer, I copied loads of stuff off of Muhammad Ali but even he would tell you that everything he did was technically wrong, you have to try to take the best and leave what doesn't work, at least that's the way I do it. Ali never intended to teach anyone and would most likely tell others not to do the things he did because most people would get hurt, the point is, with heroes like that, the teaching or lesson are incidental and not always intentional. I do think though that Michael and Elvis did lay down challenges for us as humans with potential to do more, some take them up on those, some fail, some succeed, some don't even bother with all that. You know, when I was young and just starting out as a composer I heard that Wagner was antisemitic, I swore I'd never listen to his music, then i heard Ride of the Valkries and could come to no other conclusion that the music and the gift to bring it to reality is a divine one, the rest of the stuff is seperate. No matter how many Peanut butter and banana sandwiches or monkeys on shoulders can change that, ever.

mozfonky said:

MJJstudent said:

this is the point i have been trying to state- but i guess i'm not stating it well... NEVER relegate teachers to academics. teachers exist all around us. again: we can learn from anyone- children, birds, cats... we ALL have the ability to become teachers. it is not about sitting in an institution and pointing at a board. the world is a teacher.

we are way to conditioned to the idea of teaching... we've learned to accept the hierarchies.

the thing is, james brown, fred astaire, charlie chaplin, berry gordy, diana ross, etc. were all teachers to michael. he has acknowledged this. no, they were not in a classroom with him, but they taught him a lot about life. he utilized something from them in which he learned. that's all teaching is.

why is it we don't accept ourselves as teachers. just think, you may be teaching someone RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT without realizing it. true teachers do not separate themselves or find themselves better than anyone else. i don't think michael would oppose anyone calling him a teacher. teachings are not always relegated to academics either.

as i also keep stating, michael's art are series of lessons. to me, he is the greatest teacher, for many reasons i have written about in the past.

ok, but for myself, i'll give you an example, I was a pretty talented boxer, I copied loads of stuff off of Muhammad Ali but even he would tell you that everything he did was technically wrong, you have to try to take the best and leave what doesn't work, at least that's the way I do it. Ali never intended to teach anyone and would most likely tell others not to do the things he did because most people would get hurt, the point is, with heroes like that, the teaching or lesson are incidental and not always intentional. I do think though that Michael and Elvis did lay down challenges for us as humans with potential to do more, some take them up on those, some fail, some succeed, some don't even bother with all that. You know, when I was young and just starting out as a composer I heard that Wagner was antisemitic, I swore I'd never listen to his music, then i heard Ride of the Valkries and could come to no other conclusion that the music and the gift to bring it to reality is a divine one, the rest of the stuff is seperate. No matter how many Peanut butter and banana sandwiches or monkeys on shoulders can change that, ever.

oh i totally appreciate what you're saying here, but for me, the best teachers do not do it intentionally. even if someone is licensed to teach, the greatest lessons are the ones outside of the curriculum.

in terms of muhammad ali, i think the fact he acknowleged that his moves were technically wrong; that is a great teaching moment. the fact that he was humble enough to let peoiple know this makes him a great teacher to those who admire him. so yes, teaching and learning are reciprocal, but they are also not made to be linear, if the most effective teaching and learning are going to occur.

in fact, the reason why i consider michael to be the greatest teacher is essentially because of his imperfections. and what you said right there (which i highlighted) is something which is a great lesson.

Don't mean to steer off from the current discussion but....

I'm going through my MJ bootlegs And judging in terms of sound quality and Michael's overall energy...

BAD TOUR '88
Liverpool England- this is the show where he performed for 125,000 people and it's on the best sounding boots from the '88 tour, plus you hear the audience's reaction to certain things like the opening chords of Another Part Of Me and singing along to the band playing Let It Be. I give it a 7/10 because the audience can be a bit overpowering at times and because well.....audience recordings rarely get anything more than a 9/10

London England- Wembley Stadium- I'm not entirely sure which show this is. It's not one of the first 2 shows as I have those too. It sounds good in some parts, but darn WHO IS THAT BLOWING THAT FRICKIN' WHISTLE?! They're doing it throughout a couple of songs! NOBODY beat the crap outta them for that? lol Overall it's good. You can hear Michael clearly and that's definitely a plus. A 7.5/10


London England- Wembley Stadium- another show from Wembley and this is the one where Michael dedicated I Just Can't Stop Loving You to Elizabeth Taylor. Michael even stops the song to tell the audience to tell them that Elizabeth was very sick and that the pain she was dealing with was unbearable AND to bow their heads for a moment for Elizabeth, and you can HEAR the audience's confusion and them thinking "WTF" LOL. For the record, Liz was simply feeling under the weather my favorite moment of this show is that I Just Can't Stop Loving You has a different ending. It doesn't end abruptly with Sheryl disappearing, but simply ends with Michael singing the last lines like he would end the song during the shows in Japan in '87

Leeds England- This is one of my favorites. The problems with this sets:
+Smooth Criminal is missing. It was performed but the person who was recording may have had to turn over the tape
+The audio is hit and miss for the most part and sounds muffled at times
+You can tell that this was recorded on cassette in 1988 LOL. You can REALLY tell


Rome Italy- another good one. I ignored this one for awhile because the way some fans described it, I was expecting near soundboard recording quality so I was really disappointed when hearing it, but as time gone, it's become a favorite. This was the FIRST show of the Bad Tour European leg and one of the first live bootlegs of Michael (I have a vinyl rip) and the sound quality, for a audience recording AND released on vinyl, it sounds great. It makes you feel you're in the audience. As some know, the video of the concert is "out there" but hasn't leaked except for a couple of snippets. The main problem with this one is of course at times, you can hear the age and some songs are missing, namely the Jackson 5 medley. 7.5/10

Rotterdam Holland- another good one and has the show from start to finish. Can't really complain about this one except that because it's a direct rip of an cassette tape, it has alot of tape hiss. Someone on MJJC I think removed the hiss later on. I just haven't replaced this rip with that one. I give it a 8/10

Los Angeles California- There are only 3 or 4 bootlegs from the Bad Tour's US dates and of the many boots out there from the entire tour, this is the ABSOLUTE best sounding. This was the last show and was at the L.A. Sports Memorial Arena and let me tell you. An arena's acoustics did wonders. It sounds beautiful. You can hear Michael clearly, the band is HYPED and so is Michael, I assume because all of family (except for LaToya) and his friends are all there. Berry Gordy gets a special dedication before the Jackson 5 medley which is really nice. The only thing I can say that I don't like about this recording that by the last couple of shows, Michael removed Dirty Diana completely from the set list

MJJstudent said:

mozfonky said:

ok, but for myself, i'll give you an example, I was a pretty talented boxer, I copied loads of stuff off of Muhammad Ali but even he would tell you that everything he did was technically wrong, you have to try to take the best and leave what doesn't work, at least that's the way I do it. Ali never intended to teach anyone and would most likely tell others not to do the things he did because most people would get hurt, the point is, with heroes like that, the teaching or lesson are incidental and not always intentional. I do think though that Michael and Elvis did lay down challenges for us as humans with potential to do more, some take them up on those, some fail, some succeed, some don't even bother with all that. You know, when I was young and just starting out as a composer I heard that Wagner was antisemitic, I swore I'd never listen to his music, then i heard Ride of the Valkries and could come to no other conclusion that the music and the gift to bring it to reality is a divine one, the rest of the stuff is seperate. No matter how many Peanut butter and banana sandwiches or monkeys on shoulders can change that, ever.

oh i totally appreciate what you're saying here, but for me, the best teachers do not do it intentionally. even if someone is licensed to teach, the greatest lessons are the ones outside of the curriculum.

in terms of muhammad ali, i think the fact he acknowleged that his moves were technically wrong; that is a great teaching moment. the fact that he was humble enough to let peoiple know this makes him a great teacher to those who admire him. so yes, teaching and learning are reciprocal, but they are also not made to be linear, if the most effective teaching and learning are going to occur.

in fact, the reason why i consider michael to be the greatest teacher is essentially because of his imperfections. and what you said right there (which i highlighted) is something which is a great lesson.

and yet and still people copied ali and many people got hurt. Hell, even i did the whole hands down routine, no problem but once in martial arts (different than boxing)got kicked in the head by a beginner and knocked down. Point is, take those "lessons" and tailor them for your own situation because most likely it will be nothing like theirs.

bboy87 said:

Don't mean to steer off from the current discussion but....

I'm going through my MJ bootlegs And judging in terms of sound quality and Michael's overall energy...

BAD TOUR '88
Liverpool England- this is the show where he performed for 125,000 people and it's on the best sounding boots from the '88 tour, plus you hear the audience's reaction to certain things like the opening chords of Another Part Of Me and singing along to the band playing Let It Be. I give it a 7/10 because the audience can be a bit overpowering at times and because well.....audience recordings rarely get anything more than a 9/10

London England- Wembley Stadium- I'm not entirely sure which show this is. It's not one of the first 2 shows as I have those too. It sounds good in some parts, but darn WHO IS THAT BLOWING THAT FRICKIN' WHISTLE?! They're doing it throughout a couple of songs! NOBODY beat the crap outta them for that? lol Overall it's good. You can hear Michael clearly and that's definitely a plus. A 7.5/10


London England- Wembley Stadium- another show from Wembley and this is the one where Michael dedicated I Just Can't Stop Loving You to Elizabeth Taylor. Michael even stops the song to tell the audience to tell them that Elizabeth was very sick and that the pain she was dealing with was unbearable AND to bow their heads for a moment for Elizabeth, and you can HEAR the audience's confusion and them thinking "WTF" LOL. For the record, Liz was simply feeling under the weather my favorite moment of this show is that I Just Can't Stop Loving You has a different ending. It doesn't end abruptly with Sheryl disappearing, but simply ends with Michael singing the last lines like he would end the song during the shows in Japan in '87

Leeds England- This is one of my favorites. The problems with this sets:
+Smooth Criminal is missing. It was performed but the person who was recording may have had to turn over the tape
+The audio is hit and miss for the most part and sounds muffled at times
+You can tell that this was recorded on cassette in 1988 LOL. You can REALLY tell


Rome Italy- another good one. I ignored this one for awhile because the way some fans described it, I was expecting near soundboard recording quality so I was really disappointed when hearing it, but as time gone, it's become a favorite. This was the FIRST show of the Bad Tour European leg and one of the first live bootlegs of Michael (I have a vinyl rip) and the sound quality, for a audience recording AND released on vinyl, it sounds great. It makes you feel you're in the audience. As some know, the video of the concert is "out there" but hasn't leaked except for a couple of snippets. The main problem with this one is of course at times, you can hear the age and some songs are missing, namely the Jackson 5 medley. 7.5/10

Rotterdam Holland- another good one and has the show from start to finish. Can't really complain about this one except that because it's a direct rip of an cassette tape, it has alot of tape hiss. Someone on MJJC I think removed the hiss later on. I just haven't replaced this rip with that one. I give it a 8/10

Los Angeles California- There are only 3 or 4 bootlegs from the Bad Tour's US dates and of the many boots out there from the entire tour, this is the ABSOLUTE best sounding. This was the last show and was at the L.A. Sports Memorial Arena and let me tell you. An arena's acoustics did wonders. It sounds beautiful. You can hear Michael clearly, the band is HYPED and so is Michael, I assume because all of family (except for LaToya) and his friends are all there. Berry Gordy gets a special dedication before the Jackson 5 medley which is really nice. The only thing I can say that I don't like about this recording that by the last couple of shows, Michael removed Dirty Diana completely from the set list

i like this turn, the technical stuff...

i have heard some of the rome stuff, and i liked what i heard. i'd like to hear more. and for sure, there are only some of the wembley performances i liked; i wasn't into all the ones i heard. i really love the brisbane performances i've heard. i'd love to hear what one of the live performances sound like on vinyl.

i also like hearing the intermissions in between, as michael does a clothes change or whatever. this is usually missing in the videos. i'd also love to hear a paris show in full.

do you have recordings from other tours? i posted some of my favourite performances a lot earlier in this thread, but i think it got lost. i could try to find it and repost. i'll go do that, i'd like to see what you think.

mozfonky said:

MJJstudent said:

oh i totally appreciate what you're saying here, but for me, the best teachers do not do it intentionally. even if someone is licensed to teach, the greatest lessons are the ones outside of the curriculum.

in terms of muhammad ali, i think the fact he acknowleged that his moves were technically wrong; that is a great teaching moment. the fact that he was humble enough to let peoiple know this makes him a great teacher to those who admire him. so yes, teaching and learning are reciprocal, but they are also not made to be linear, if the most effective teaching and learning are going to occur.

in fact, the reason why i consider michael to be the greatest teacher is essentially because of his imperfections. and what you said right there (which i highlighted) is something which is a great lesson.

and yet and still people copied ali and many people got hurt. Hell, even i did the whole hands down routine, no problem but once in martial arts (different than boxing)got kicked in the head by a beginner and knocked down. Point is, take those "lessons" and tailor them for your own situation because most likely it will be nothing like theirs.

i concur.

i found it, bboy... here is a re-post:

what are some peoples' favourite performances of michael's, from his 'solo' tours?

some of mine are :

-human nature (bad tour, brisbane)

-billie jean (dangerous tour, bucharest)

-beat it (dangerous tour rehearsal)

-wanna be startin' somethin' (bad tour, yokohama)

-dangerous (HIStory tour, munich)

-earth song (brunei performance)

-smooth criminal (bad tour, wembley)

-workin' day and night (bad tour, tokyo)

-rock with you (bad tour, yokohama)

-another part of me (the footage is a mixture of the paris and wembley shows, but i believe the audio is from wembley... it's my favourite audio of the live versions- and to me, michael's greatest teaching)

bboy87 said:

Militant said:

I've never in my life seen another person who radiates as much love, hope and positivity as Michael. You can feel it in your heart when you look at him and he never fails to put me in a positive mood.

Why is it that some people don't see it or do they deliberately ignore it? I wish that more people in the world.... could take inspiration from that and strive on a daily basis to be that pure and positive.

It's 5.30am... my insomnia is running wild, I've been depressed for hours for personal reasons... and yet, I come in this thread, watch a few clips, and suddenly my mood just lifts and I'm smiling. As always... thank you, Michael. I love you and I miss you.

I totally know what you mean. I put Stevie Wonder in that category. There's.....something about them, an aura that just radiates love and I wonder why other people don't "get it".

After Michael passed, I wrote something that during the last few years of his life, you saw that he brought the best and the worst in some people and with the worst, it was downright UGLY in some. You can call it whatever you want, but it's definitely something in some people.

I'll never forget the night I went to see This Is It. For someone who in the past got teased and insulted (and had to punk people ) because Michael Jackson was a hero of his, what I saw was surprising to me. I walked in to the theater. I saw black, white, samoan, asian, latino, young, and old... I saw a terminally ill woman who wheeled in an oxygen tank with her and sat in the front row. People were dancing in the aisles, singing along... a beautiful atmosphere. I've never seen that before and I sat back and simply smiled

To me, Michael has always also served as some kind of a test on human character. If someone was screaming all the way weirdo, paedophile, making stupid jokes on him etc. that told me more about their character than anything else - I could not trust these people. These were the people I knew I should distance myself from, not becasue they didn't like my hero, but because I knew that deep inside they were not good people. On the other hand, I've met a lot of people who in the beginning had a very distorted picture of the man thus believing he was weird, but they were willing to listen, learn more and then, change their opinion.

And yes, I agree that Michael just radiates love, just too much love and he always puts me in a good mood. Nobody else could do that for me. Just nobody.

Nice..

I am watching this with a big grin on my face and tears in my eyes. I love especially the SIM footage. Is it even possible that someone can make you feel like that?

[Edited 4/20/11 9:28am]

Some commented this that Prince laughs like Mike. He really does. Anyways, what an idiot that journalist is.

.

[Edited 4/20/11 8:05am]

Swa said:

How will the HARDCORE Prince *only* fans handle this...

Prince pays tribute to Michael Jackson with “Don’t Stop ‘Til You Get Enough” cover [Video] | Live Music

It’s very rare to see a legend perform another legend’s music, unless it’s for a special televised event. HoweverPrince, who is forever setting trends and breaking molds, decided to pay tribute to the his fellow icon, the lateMichael Jackson on the first date of his 21 residency at the Forum in Los Angeles, California.

The leader of The New Power Generation dipped into MJ’s 1979 Grammy Award-winning classic ”Don’t Stop ‘Til You Get Enough”, from Michael’s fifth solo album, Off The Wall, before leading into Prince’s own “Cool” – watch below.

[Prince video snip - luv4u]

*** Of course this isn't the first time P has performed MJ songs - but now the press are catching on.

What’s cool is P shouts “Y’know my boy” at the beginning of the vid then points up to the heavens. Nice to see one legend showing props to another like that.

Beijing, April 18 (IANS) A video showing over 700 children dancing to Michael Jackson's "Dangerous" at a primary school in southwest China has taken the internet by storm.

Students of the Duping Primary School in Wushan county of Chongqing are shown dancing on a dirt playground and moonwalking to "Dangerous" in the same way the late 'King of Pop' did, according to Xinhua.

The eight-minute video has appeared on video-sharing website youku.com and quickly spread through a microblogging service run by sina.com.

One of the video's producers, Wang Zhonghua, who teaches Chinese at the school, said the choice to use the song was a coincidence. "We just felt it was animated and the children seemed to enjoy the song," he said.

Wang and sports teacher Ran Jia watched Jackson's video and learned to perform the dance themselves before teaching their students.

"The children learned really fast," said Wang.

Internet users have praised the school's efforts as "pioneering" and "cool". Some, however, said the music and lyrics of "Dangerous" were not appropriate for children.