From the Estate:

Press reports on TMZ and other media sites regarding the settlement terms between the Michael Jackson Estate and the Heal the World defendants are wrong. The Estate is taking back the Heal the World Foundation and all of the Michael Jackson trademarks it allegedly owned. The Michael Jackson Estate owns the Heal the World name, and neither Melissa Johnson nor her companies will ever be able to use Michael Jackson's name or the Heal the World name.

from twitter

@joevogel_ Joe Vogel
It will be re-activated and directed by John Branca, John McClain and Katherine Jackson

@JoeVogel said:

From the Estate of Michael Jackson: Press reports on TMZ and other media sites regarding the settlement terms between the Michael Jackson Estate and the Heal the World defendants are wrong. The Estate is taking back the Heal the World Foundation and all of the Michael Jackson trademarks it allegedly owned. The Michael Jackson Estate owns the Heal the World name, and neither Melissa Johnson nor her companies will ever be able to use Michael Jackson's name or the Heal the World name.

Joe Vogel tweet

To clarify, I am not in any way speaking FOR the Estate. I am a journalist asking questions and reporting what I learn.

Apparently, any kind of Board would be under the direction of the Estate and hasn't yet been formed

I am told Howard Mann will no longer have any role in the HTWF.

Details still being worked out with Melissa Johnson, but she no longer has any rights to Michael's name or the charity

"HTWF will now have a much broader reach and impact. It will be one of several charities that benefits from Michael's Estate"

[Edited 4/19/11 15:46pm]

mookie said:

Joe Vogel tweet

To clarify, I am not in any way speaking FOR the Estate. I am a journalist asking questions and reporting what I learn.

Apparently, any kind of Board would be under the direction of the Estate and hasn't yet been formed

I am told Howard Mann will no longer have any role in the HTWF.

Details still being worked out with Melissa Johnson, but she no longer has any rights to Michael's name or the charity

"HTWF will now have a much broader reach and impact. It will be one of several charities that benefits from Michael's Estate"

[Edited 4/19/11 15:46pm]

mozfonky said:

MJJstudent said:

i happen to like the philisophical discussions the best... you can find footage or photos anywhere on michael fan sites, where you can (visually) ogle every aspect of him. photos of michael are a dime a dozen. but where else can you go for at-length discussions of his art, or the politics behind all of it? or where can you go to discuss the technical aspects of his art... things like the recording process?

personally, just seeing new photos or footage isn't that interesting to me on a forum, since i can go look at that stuff myself. i can go listen to to records at home. but there aren't too many places (in person or otherwise) where i can have in-depth discussions. that's the stuff i enjoy. but it's something i rarely do, since most people don't appear to be interested in that. (the one friend i really got to do this with on a regular basis transcended a couple of months ago).

i actually came to this specific forum thinking there WOULD be a constant stream of in-depth discussion. for the most part these days i just check to see if there is, and if there is not i just leave.

i did go to MJvault but there was nothing really there, and the few things i saw were not discussions about technical things like studio equipment or production techniques. it was more like 'what is your favourite song?

i would love to find a site like, say, a cross between 'democracy now!' or 'free speech radio news and gearslutz or something, except it's exclusively about michael's art and works. socio-political stuff mixed wih technique. does anyone know of something like this?

just my take on things... thanks.

You haven't liked some of the books about the recording process that have come out? Lots of anecdotes about that stuff and there is plenty of writing out there about his meaning, Dyson, Crouch, some great intellectuals have written things about him Pro and con. There is a book by some lady which I skimmed through which covers a lot of stuff like this, anyway give it time. He's already had better stuff written than elvis did right after his death. In fact, it took decades for similar info on Elvis to be written down.

are there other books (besides the one written by swedien) written in-depth about michael's recording process? i'd love to read them if you know of some...

i actually do enjoy academic/intellectual writings on michael (and i can't stand stanley crouch- he's one of the most close-minded thinkers when it comes to art, particularly jazz and hip hop; and he's even worse when it comes to political issues). some of the greatest socio-political writings i have seen on michael come from armond white. i'm definitely not looking for puff-pieces when it comes to michael... i consider him my teacher, but i have major critiques for him as well.

i guess what i am looking for mostly are dialogs about michael from a non-professional perspective. 'academic' conversations from non-academics. this is what i was getting at. i don't think these conversations should just be relegated to professionals who make a living writing about this stuff. why can't we 'little people' do the same thing? if we supposedly care about michael, why can't we be sharing these same ideas, as opposed to only talking about how 'cute' he is, or what our favourite songs are?

WHY are these songs our favourites? what is the meaning behind the songs which hold significance? what about the structure is so compelling to us? these are the things i love talking about, and it's difficult to find others who share the same passion in speaking about michael in these ways.

^ Politics are boring to some folks (I can attest to that). Sometimes it can venture off course. If you're actually expecting an "intelligent" talk about Michael as, oh how shall I put it, a black man who had to deal with a lot of issues as he grew up in the glare of the spotlight and the personal process it took to make the songs he did, you're better off creating a time machine that actually allows people to go back when their favorite rock stars were their ages.

Timmy84 said:

^ Politics are boring to some folks (I can attest to that). Sometimes it can venture off course. If you're actually expecting an "intelligent" talk about Michael as, oh how shall I put it, a black man who had to deal with a lot of issues as he grew up in the glare of the spotlight and the personal process it took to make the songs he did, you're better off creating a time machine that actually allows people to go back when their favorite rock stars were their ages.

i'm not sure what you mean about a 'time machine'... we are still dealing with the same socio-political issues that existed when michael was a child- access to institutional power; economic equality; media representation, etc... nothing has changed.

and dialogs about art or music venture off course consistently. some people find political dialogs boring, and some don't. i'm looking to connect with those who do not. those who choose to remain outside the box of looking at art and music superficially, and choose to look deeply at the socio-political issues surrounding lyrics and arrangements. michael's music was extremely nuanced and spoke of issues relating to politics, child abuse, overconsumption, media criticism, and active-ism. this is the michael i love to emphasize. personally, i don't give a damn about talking about how thriller was the no. 1 selling album for the 20,000th time. we all know this. i don't care about hearing billie jean again, unless it's speaking about the structure of the song.

i don't care to see the 'moonwalk' coming from him again, unless it's to discuss the ways in which hip hop culture permeated middle america (and the globe), by way of viewing michael.

i AM interested in talking about how thriller changed the face of how the u.s. (and the world) viewed black success at the time, and how that may or may not have shifted.

i think artists like michael deserve better than superficial conversations about their work. they deserve extensive panels and dialogs, just done by THE PEOPLE, instead of paid consultants and professors. people like michael deserve to have their work outside of music honored.

as i said, this is why i stay out of most comments on this forum. it's not that i don't value what people have to say; it's just not something i want to emphasize. i personally don't care about the family dramas or the lawsuits. what i DO care about is the safety of the children. that is all. people already know i don't like the folks who run the estate, nor do i like what the family is doing, so i have nothing to add.. others apparently do.

i don't care about michael's looks (unless it's to make sure his health is okay), or whether or not he is sexy. i'm not interested in whether or not sony is going to put anything out because i'm not supporting anything sony does posthumously, financially or otherwise. i don't care about the video games, or cirque du soleil.

what i feel i have to add is usually not the focus of this forum... so i just stay out most of the time. and i'll keep searching until i find a forum or conversation which meets my needs to discuss the issues i feel need to be discussed.

my focus is on studying michael as a teacher, and a socio-political figure. to me, his art, his speeches, and even his dance, are elements of the teachings. to me, i see all of this as political. as i keep saying, if there are others out there like this, i'd love to meet them. if not, i guess i will have to be alone.

thanks...

^ I meant in MUSIC, not everything else that surrounded it.

And besides, like I said, don't expect that they'll get your point, they'll try to argue how their point makes more sense, and it'll be like a continuous bait thread even if the OP has good intentions.

Timmy84 said:

And besides, like I said, don't expect that they'll get your point, they'll try to argue how their point makes more sense, and it'll be like a continuous bait thread even if the OP has good intentions.

you have a point... but this is why i am chosing not to discuss this stuff on here too much, because it doesn't seem as if people are as excited as me about discussing these things. i'm not on here to argue. i'm here to have a dialog.

but i'm more interested in discussing the political aspects of music, i'm not really that interested in discussing music for the sake of music- at least when it comes to michael. i believe that music has meaning behind the words and arrangements. and my hope is that some day i'll find a group of others who feel the same, and who speak about these issues with an intense passion.

it's like gamble and huff always emphasized: there is a message in the music.

silverchild said:

silverchild said:

yes indeed...

The moment Michael said "I don't like that camera over here" and put his hand over it is what I called his DIVA moment.

I've never in my life seen another person who radiates as much love, hope and positivity as Michael. You can feel it in your heart when you look at him and he never fails to put me in a positive mood.

Why is it that some people don't see it or do they deliberately ignore it? I wish that more people in the world.... could take inspiration from that and strive on a daily basis to be that pure and positive.

It's 5.30am... my insomnia is running wild, I've been depressed for hours for personal reasons... and yet, I come in this thread, watch a few clips, and suddenly my mood just lifts and I'm smiling. As always... thank you, Michael. I love you and I miss you.

Militant said:

I've never in my life seen another person who radiates as much love, hope and positivity as Michael. You can feel it in your heart when you look at him and he never fails to put me in a positive mood.

Why is it that some people don't see it or do they deliberately ignore it? I wish that more people in the world.... could take inspiration from that and strive on a daily basis to be that pure and positive.

It's 5.30am... my insomnia is running wild, I've been depressed for hours for personal reasons... and yet, I come in this thread, watch a few clips, and suddenly my mood just lifts and I'm smiling. As always... thank you, Michael. I love you and I miss you.

I remember "I don't this angle, I like that one" when they showed it on ET I was laughing and going awww, still have it on tape. He didn't even look like a diva doing that, it's like he was doing it just to be cute.

^ I personally thought it was. And not in a "bitch I want it here" type. But more of the humble but subtle approach (like Patti LaBelle for instance lol).

MJJstudent said:

mozfonky said:

You haven't liked some of the books about the recording process that have come out? Lots of anecdotes about that stuff and there is plenty of writing out there about his meaning, Dyson, Crouch, some great intellectuals have written things about him Pro and con. There is a book by some lady which I skimmed through which covers a lot of stuff like this, anyway give it time. He's already had better stuff written than elvis did right after his death. In fact, it took decades for similar info on Elvis to be written down.

are there other books (besides the one written by swedien) written in-depth about michael's recording process? i'd love to read them if you know of some...

i actually do enjoy academic/intellectual writings on michael (and i can't stand stanley crouch- he's one of the most close-minded thinkers when it comes to art, particularly jazz and hip hop; and he's even worse when it comes to political issues). some of the greatest socio-political writings i have seen on michael come from armond white. i'm definitely not looking for puff-pieces when it comes to michael... i consider him my teacher, but i have major critiques for him as well.

i guess what i am looking for mostly are dialogs about michael from a non-professional perspective. 'academic' conversations from non-academics. this is what i was getting at. i don't think these conversations should just be relegated to professionals who make a living writing about this stuff. why can't we 'little people' do the same thing? if we supposedly care about michael, why can't we be sharing these same ideas, as opposed to only talking about how 'cute' he is, or what our favourite songs are?

WHY are these songs our favourites? what is the meaning behind the songs which hold significance? what about the structure is so compelling to us? these are the things i love talking about, and it's difficult to find others who share the same passion in speaking about michael in these ways.

You know, I agree with you and I have always put my perspective into my posts, but not everyone here has that take on Mike or do not really care as much about those aspects. Michael was complex and mysterious, like an Elvis or a Prince or a Hendrix. He was also a hell of an artist but the thing is, he was so huge that everything is distorted. Most of the people here are happy to celebrate the man, post info on him and I have absolutely no qualms, in fact, this is the first place I come to keep tabs on what's going on so I can keep up on the court case, the cascio stuff or whatever else may be going on. Nelson George wrote a great but deeply flawed book, over the years there have been great articles which I'm sure you're aware of. The Spin article from 87 was fantastic, I generally stay away from the white critics (who i deeply respect) because I feel they will never forgive Michael for being as huge as he was. With Elvis, it took about 3 or 4 years of muckraking books before we finally got the perfect document which articulated what made Elvis Elvis and why people loved him. Anyway, there is some great stuff out there, impressive writing, you just have to dig, i've favorited many of my favorite articles but it's on my desktop in storage. Oh yeah, I hate crouch too, I just read him because,like him or not, he's a bright guy and has some interesting things to say, we are free to disagree with anyone.

Also, Spike Lee had mentioned doing a docu on Mike, the last time he was in Seattle, I meant to ask him about the progress on it in the Q&A part of his speech, I didn't though. His docu's are great so one on Mike would be phenomenal also.

Timmy84 said:

^ Politics are boring to some folks (I can attest to that). Sometimes it can venture off course. If you're actually expecting an "intelligent" talk about Michael as, oh how shall I put it, a black man who had to deal with a lot of issues as he grew up in the glare of the spotlight and the personal process it took to make the songs he did, you're better off creating a time machine that actually allows people to go back when their favorite rock stars were their ages.

Yeah, it's true that aspects other than the music, the performance bore most people. I know lots of fans of Springsteen, Elvis, Michael or Prince but most of them are woefully ignorant of the biographies of these men, that's just the way it is. They want what's the final product, me I'm just as interested in what happened to make these men what they are. At the end of the day, however, we all know, like Dave Marsh concluded at the end of his great Elvis bio, it's the mystery, the glory, the greatness of the music which makes us care the way we do. Genius like that is not meant to be understood really.

mozfonky said:

Timmy84 said:

^ Politics are boring to some folks (I can attest to that). Sometimes it can venture off course. If you're actually expecting an "intelligent" talk about Michael as, oh how shall I put it, a black man who had to deal with a lot of issues as he grew up in the glare of the spotlight and the personal process it took to make the songs he did, you're better off creating a time machine that actually allows people to go back when their favorite rock stars were their ages.

Yeah, it's true that aspects other than the music, the performance bore most people. I know lots of fans of Springsteen, Elvis, Michael or Prince but most of them are woefully ignorant of the biographies of these men, that's just the way it is. They want what's the final product, me I'm just as interested in what happened to make these men what they are. At the end of the day, however, we all know, like Dave Marsh concluded at the end of his great Elvis bio, it's the mystery, the glory, the greatness of the music which makes us care the way we do. Genius like that is not meant to be understood really.

Right and even if we wanted to know what made so and so click, we're never gonna get the FULL understanding. It's probably best to keep it that way.

Militant said:

I've never in my life seen another person who radiates as much love, hope and positivity as Michael. You can feel it in your heart when you look at him and he never fails to put me in a positive mood.

Why is it that some people don't see it or do they deliberately ignore it? I wish that more people in the world.... could take inspiration from that and strive on a daily basis to be that pure and positive.

It's 5.30am... my insomnia is running wild, I've been depressed for hours for personal reasons... and yet, I come in this thread, watch a few clips, and suddenly my mood just lifts and I'm smiling. As always... thank you, Michael. I love you and I miss you.

i concur with you in some ways, casey... the thing for me though, is that i see michael and i don't always see happiness. my connection to him is actually sadness, if that makes any sense at all. i listened to him (prior to 2009) and i'd become sad. sometimes hearing and seeing him makes me happy, but for the most part it's not the case.

even though i grew up with his art since i entered this earth, i ended up connecting with him as an artist as an adult, when i learned of his childhood traumas. as someone who also experienced that i learned to love him and his art in this way. also, i began to respect him as an artist more when i saw he had a huge political voice. his art gets me amped, and it inspires me, but truthfully it doesn't necessarily make me happy. all i see is someone who never dealt with his traumas in pro-active ways.

because of this, it's very isolating for someone like me to speak about michael, because i don't know others who connect with him in this way. most people just see happiness when they hear or see him.

nevertheless, i hope you feel better, with whatever you're going through in your personal life.

mozfonky said:

MJJstudent said:

are there other books (besides the one written by swedien) written in-depth about michael's recording process? i'd love to read them if you know of some...

i actually do enjoy academic/intellectual writings on michael (and i can't stand stanley crouch- he's one of the most close-minded thinkers when it comes to art, particularly jazz and hip hop; and he's even worse when it comes to political issues). some of the greatest socio-political writings i have seen on michael come from armond white. i'm definitely not looking for puff-pieces when it comes to michael... i consider him my teacher, but i have major critiques for him as well.

i guess what i am looking for mostly are dialogs about michael from a non-professional perspective. 'academic' conversations from non-academics. this is what i was getting at. i don't think these conversations should just be relegated to professionals who make a living writing about this stuff. why can't we 'little people' do the same thing? if we supposedly care about michael, why can't we be sharing these same ideas, as opposed to only talking about how 'cute' he is, or what our favourite songs are?

WHY are these songs our favourites? what is the meaning behind the songs which hold significance? what about the structure is so compelling to us? these are the things i love talking about, and it's difficult to find others who share the same passion in speaking about michael in these ways.

You know, I agree with you and I have always put my perspective into my posts, but not everyone here has that take on Mike or do not really care as much about those aspects. Michael was complex and mysterious, like an Elvis or a Prince or a Hendrix. He was also a hell of an artist but the thing is, he was so huge that everything is distorted. Most of the people here are happy to celebrate the man, post info on him and I have absolutely no qualms, in fact, this is the first place I come to keep tabs on what's going on so I can keep up on the court case, the cascio stuff or whatever else may be going on. Nelson George wrote a great but deeply flawed book, over the years there have been great articles which I'm sure you're aware of. The Spin article from 87 was fantastic, I generally stay away from the white critics (who i deeply respect) because I feel they will never forgive Michael for being as huge as he was. With Elvis, it took about 3 or 4 years of muckraking books before we finally got the perfect document which articulated what made Elvis Elvis and why people loved him. Anyway, there is some great stuff out there, impressive writing, you just have to dig, i've favorited many of my favorite articles but it's on my desktop in storage. Oh yeah, I hate crouch too, I just read him because,like him or not, he's a bright guy and has some interesting things to say, we are free to disagree with anyone.

thanks for responding... my question to you after reading this is if you know of any groups or individuals (outside of professional circles) who are into these deep ongoing discussions. michael needs to be thought of as part of the cultural framework as much as say, presidents or other figures. because he is such an umbrella for many of our socio-political mores.

again, this is why i don't respond on this forum too much (unless it's stuff like this) because i know most people aren't into michael in the same way i am. it makes me very sad as it's isolating, but i've accepted that. the only thing we can do is speak on michael from our own perspectives, but that's what i'm interested in.

i'm personally not interested in the cascio stuff, since i know it's fake, and again, i don't want anything to do with posthumous business. it's not respectful of michael as a teacher, so i choose not to focus on it. and yes, i am aware of the many articles written about michael as a teacher, or as a great political force but AGAIN! those people are sitting in a little bubble not communicating with the 'little people'.

i am searching for 'everyday people'- NOT paid professionals or journalists, to connect with. it's sad that i only am seeing these writings from journalists or professors. are there people outside of these fields who look at michael in the same way? are there any other advocates who look at him as a teacher? who look at him as a socio-political figure?

MJJstudent said:

mozfonky said:

You know, I agree with you and I have always put my perspective into my posts, but not everyone here has that take on Mike or do not really care as much about those aspects. Michael was complex and mysterious, like an Elvis or a Prince or a Hendrix. He was also a hell of an artist but the thing is, he was so huge that everything is distorted. Most of the people here are happy to celebrate the man, post info on him and I have absolutely no qualms, in fact, this is the first place I come to keep tabs on what's going on so I can keep up on the court case, the cascio stuff or whatever else may be going on. Nelson George wrote a great but deeply flawed book, over the years there have been great articles which I'm sure you're aware of. The Spin article from 87 was fantastic, I generally stay away from the white critics (who i deeply respect) because I feel they will never forgive Michael for being as huge as he was. With Elvis, it took about 3 or 4 years of muckraking books before we finally got the perfect document which articulated what made Elvis Elvis and why people loved him. Anyway, there is some great stuff out there, impressive writing, you just have to dig, i've favorited many of my favorite articles but it's on my desktop in storage. Oh yeah, I hate crouch too, I just read him because,like him or not, he's a bright guy and has some interesting things to say, we are free to disagree with anyone.

thanks for responding... my question to you after reading this is if you know of any groups or individuals (outside of professional circles) who are into these deep ongoing discussions. michael needs to be thought of as part of the cultural framework as much as say, presidents or other figures. because he is such an umbrella for many of our socio-political mores.

again, this is why i don't respond on this forum too much (unless it's stuff like this) because i know most people aren't into michael in the same way i am. it makes me very sad as it's isolating, but i've accepted that. the only thing we can do is speak on michael from our own perspectives, but that's what i'm interested in.

i'm personally not interested in the cascio stuff, since i know it's fake, and again, i don't want anything to do with posthumous business. it's not respectful of michael as a teacher, so i choose not to focus on it. and yes, i am aware of the many articles written about michael as a teacher, or as a great political force but AGAIN! those people are sitting in a little bubble not communicating with the 'little people'.

i am searching for 'everyday people'- NOT paid professionals or journalists, to connect with. it's sad that i only am seeing these writings from journalists or professors. are there people outside of these fields who look at michael in the same way? are there any other advocates who look at him as a teacher? who look at him as a socio-political figure?

I'm sure there are and with the internet, the oppurtunity is there to do these things but for the most part, any forums on ANY subject have a hodgepodge of posters, some good, some bad some just only interested in one thing or another but not the bigger picture, that's really hard to find. Also, hate to say it, but on most of the forums I post on whites vastly outnumber everyone else for whatever reason so lots of things which wouldn't be of interest do not get discussed. That wouldn't be the case here but I think it is elsewhere. I like the great work that authors and thinkers do, it helps me to come up with my OWN ideas of who I think these men were, usually more and less than what all the authors say. Michael as a teacher? I don't know, Elvis as a teacher? I try to learn from people's triumphs and tragedies in my own life,in my own way. But I don't believe in heroes or teachers as such anymore. That's just my personal take.

Timmy84 said:

mozfonky said:

Yeah, it's true that aspects other than the music, the performance bore most people. I know lots of fans of Springsteen, Elvis, Michael or Prince but most of them are woefully ignorant of the biographies of these men, that's just the way it is. They want what's the final product, me I'm just as interested in what happened to make these men what they are. At the end of the day, however, we all know, like Dave Marsh concluded at the end of his great Elvis bio, it's the mystery, the glory, the greatness of the music which makes us care the way we do. Genius like that is not meant to be understood really.

Right and even if we wanted to know what made so and so click, we're never gonna get the FULL understanding. It's probably best to keep it that way.

it's not about getting a full understanding of michael (at least, since most of us don't personally know him); however, to me it's about making those connections, as most of us here in the u.s. are conditioned under a colonialist, corporatist culture... how are artists like michael relating to this conditioning? how do they strive to break free from it, or do they? michael is no better than any of us. these are the discussions which i think need to be had, outside of a professional field. we need to be talking about these issues in our communities.

this is why the HIStory album is such an important piece in the dialog... this album is a direct challenge to these structures, borne out of the 1993 case in which he was accused of endangering a child. the fact that an album calling out the structure of corporatism supposedly due to this singular experience lends to larger issues of michael's place in the power scheme.

how does michael's art shape our own experiences under these conditions? if we choose not to discuss these issues, we'll continue to be ruled by the hand of corporatist/colonialist culture. THIS is one of the discussions i'd love to have, but i realize it will not be successful here, so i don't do it. i will just actively seek this discussion elsewhere.

i'm just openly letting you know where i stand. thanks...

@mozfonky I kinda don't either. But I do believe some artists have some purpose. Sometimes we may overstate it but they have a purpose one way or another... after going over their personal lives, they're just as messy as we are...

who else has learned to apreciate invincible more after the release of michael?

i now think it wassent that bad of a release if it werent for the up tempo tracks.

butterflies break of dawn , heaven can wait what ever happens are all beautifull to me