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Thread started 06/15/18 6:11pm

BartVanHemelen

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Hey Warners et al, how about giving fans as much information as you're giving to industry insiders like Bob Lefsetz?

Bob Lefsetz got a glimpse at some of the contents of Prince's vault: http://lefsetz.com/wordpr...ces-vault/ .

.

(ATTN to all those that are thinking about copy-pasting the whole thing here: respect the copyrights. It's not like clicking a link is such a hassle.)

.

[Edited 6/16/18 5:57am]

© Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.
It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for
your use. All rights reserved.
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Reply #1 posted 06/15/18 6:27pm

luv4u

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moderator

Interesting

Edmonton, AB - canada

Ohh purple joy oh purple bliss oh purple rapture!
REAL MUSIC by REAL MUSICIANS - Prince
"I kind of wish there was a reason for Prince to make the site crash more" ~~ Ben
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Reply #2 posted 06/16/18 12:56am

databank

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Michael Howe should come and talk to us.

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #3 posted 06/16/18 2:17am

OperatingTheta
n

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If they did bother talking to genuine fans they might discover what has already been circulating on the bootleg scene for years...
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Reply #4 posted 06/16/18 3:12am

CherryMoon57

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Nice article... made me miss him even more.

'[...]And to see Prince in action…

His mop of hair going from styled to stringy as the gig progressed. Twisting and turning the lyrics for an audience rapt in attention. And then squeezing out notes on his Telecaster…

Yes, he didn’t always have the custom axes. He had to prove himself. He had to pay his dues. He had to make it.

And it was a slow ascent. His talent was there, but he did not emerge fully-formed. He changed. Didn’t always sing in falsetto, worked with different musicians, because you need a band, you can’t do it alone. On some of the demos he does play all the instruments, but to deliver live…


The band was well-rehearsed, he conducted it.

It was everything.

Now I listened to finished versions of songs made famous by other people.


Demos of household name songs.

Soundcheck workouts of songs long before they were finalized on wax.

It was amazing.

Not that everybody will care.

And it is kind of weird that he was lord of his kingdom, deciding what to release, and now he isn’t, and his vault is being raided.[...]'

sad

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Reply #5 posted 06/16/18 3:22am

Sydney

I totally agree with Bart and feel further that Warner, while obliging and enthusiastic, seem oblivious to the knowledge of the hard core Prince community amongst who'se leaders could advise on very commerical Prince catalogue packages for the fans. I feel in a way the upcoming Piano & Microphone release is a case in point - perhaps if the company had investigated the hard core/bootleg history of Prince underground releases they would have known how many have already accessed and shared that rehearsal. While not a reason not to release such beauty but perhaps it could be in additon to another release or at the very least seriously enhanced -we will see. While I am not advocating the label or Estate pander to the elitist whims of the collectors it is a good starting point to determine what Prince catalogue can cause the most excitiement and interest. I have said many times to the Australian label that Warner should consider the packaging and concepts of the Prince bootleg releases to date to get an indication of what the fans would love. While these posthomous releases shouldnt just be aimed at the hard core fans it is essential to engaage them as otherwise any heritage release could fall immediately flat. Prince's un-released catalogue is a goldmine and blessing for those who own it - you could role it out and re-package it in various forms for the next ten years and triple your profit. I for one would buy anything that comes out officlally (and un-offically) from the great man.

[Edited 6/16/18 3:31am]

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Reply #6 posted 06/16/18 4:04am

jaypotton

That article sums up my feelings pretty well. I think I am from the last generation for whom music really mattered. We listened to albums (and concept albums) not simply seeing music as a commodity for a quick fix.

We revered the entire package. The gatefold sleeves looking for any hidden meaning in the artwork. We handled the vinyl with care less we damage it. We appreciated the artistry rather than the celebrity.

And like the article says... Our sound systems/stereos mattered. No listening to songs on tinnie headphones or worse, the built in speaker of a smartphone! We listened for nuance and loved the studio trickery for stereo or quadrophonics!

Kids today (there are clearly exceptions) simply do not have that same appreciation and music has too many competitors for teenage time and money.

Personally I am glad I was a teen in the 80s rather than now.
'I loved him then, I love him now and will love him eternally. He's with our son now.' Mayte 21st April 2016 = the saddest quote I have ever read! RIP Prince and thanks for everything.
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Reply #7 posted 06/16/18 6:46am

jdcxc

Sydney said:

I totally agree with Bart and feel further that Warner, while obliging and enthusiastic, seem oblivious to the knowledge of the hard core Prince community amongst who'se leaders could advise on very commerical Prince catalogue packages for the fans. I feel in a way the upcoming Piano & Microphone release is a case in point - perhaps if the company had investigated the hard core/bootleg history of Prince underground releases they would have known how many have already accessed and shared that rehearsal. While not a reason not to release such beauty but perhaps it could be in additon to another release or at the very least seriously enhanced -we will see. While I am not advocating the label or Estate pander to the elitist whims of the collectors it is a good starting point to determine what Prince catalogue can cause the most excitiement and interest. I have said many times to the Australian label that Warner should consider the packaging and concepts of the Prince bootleg releases to date to get an indication of what the fans would love. While these posthomous releases shouldnt just be aimed at the hard core fans it is essential to engaage them as otherwise any heritage release could fall immediately flat. Prince's un-released catalogue is a goldmine and blessing for those who own it - you could role it out and re-package it in various forms for the next ten years and triple your profit. I for one would buy anything that comes out officlally (and un-offically) from the great man.

[Edited 6/16/18 3:31am]



Well put. Prince’s enormous Vault is such a rare commodity that there has never been a blueprint on how to handle it’s marketing and release strategy. What other dead artist can you compare to the wealth of riches? (Basquiat? Warhol?) Do you go for hits with mainstream tastes or do you release cultivated expensive packages to the dedicated? Timing of the market and the inevitable decline in mainstream interest also play into these decisions.

Hopefully, WB/Estate is consulting with some knowledgeable fans. We should vote a representative team and force our way in the room.
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Reply #8 posted 06/16/18 11:12am

LilaLiebe

jaypotton said:

That article sums up my feelings pretty well. I think I am from the last generation for whom music really mattered. We listened to albums (and concept albums) not simply seeing music as a commodity for a quick fix. We revered the entire package. The gatefold sleeves looking for any hidden meaning in the artwork. We handled the vinyl with care less we damage it. We appreciated the artistry rather than the celebrity. And like the article says... Our sound systems/stereos mattered. No listening to songs on tinnie headphones or worse, the built in speaker of a smartphone! We listened for nuance and loved the studio trickery for stereo or quadrophonics! Kids today (there are clearly exceptions) simply do not have that same appreciation and music has too many competitors for teenage time and money. Personally I am glad I was a teen in the 80s rather than now.

I too was a teen in the 80s and I absolutely love and agree with your post. Those years were a wonderful time to experience music in all its various aspects (the music itself, the packaging, the excitement over new releases, etc), and there was a magic and reverence for it all that's been lost since those days.

An old soul
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Reply #9 posted 06/16/18 2:57pm

mynameisnotsus
an

jdcxc said:

Sydney said:

I totally agree with Bart and feel further that Warner, while obliging and enthusiastic, seem oblivious to the knowledge of the hard core Prince community amongst who'se leaders could advise on very commerical Prince catalogue packages for the fans. I feel in a way the upcoming Piano & Microphone release is a case in point - perhaps if the company had investigated the hard core/bootleg history of Prince underground releases they would have known how many have already accessed and shared that rehearsal. While not a reason not to release such beauty but perhaps it could be in additon to another release or at the very least seriously enhanced -we will see. While I am not advocating the label or Estate pander to the elitist whims of the collectors it is a good starting point to determine what Prince catalogue can cause the most excitiement and interest. I have said many times to the Australian label that Warner should consider the packaging and concepts of the Prince bootleg releases to date to get an indication of what the fans would love. While these posthomous releases shouldnt just be aimed at the hard core fans it is essential to engaage them as otherwise any heritage release could fall immediately flat. Prince's un-released catalogue is a goldmine and blessing for those who own it - you could role it out and re-package it in various forms for the next ten years and triple your profit. I for one would buy anything that comes out officlally (and un-offically) from the great man.

[Edited 6/16/18 3:31am]



Well put. Prince’s enormous Vault is such a rare commodity that there has never been a blueprint on how to handle it’s marketing and release strategy. What other dead artist can you compare to the wealth of riches? (Basquiat? Warhol?) Do you go for hits with mainstream tastes or do you release cultivated expensive packages to the dedicated? Timing of the market and the inevitable decline in mainstream interest also play into these decisions.

Hopefully, WB/Estate is consulting with some knowledgeable fans. We should vote a representative team and force our way in the room.



If they wanted a template to follow they didn't have to search very hard. Dylan's Bootleg Series releases are a perfect way to handle legacy recordings- they should have been ongoing since Crystal Ball got released when there was still a demand for physical product - we are like 20 years behind where we should be with archive releases neutral
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Reply #10 posted 06/16/18 6:40pm

andrewm7

Same as it ever was...
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Reply #11 posted 06/16/18 7:32pm

PennyPurple

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LilaLiebe said:

jaypotton said:

That article sums up my feelings pretty well. I think I am from the last generation for whom music really mattered. We listened to albums (and concept albums) not simply seeing music as a commodity for a quick fix. We revered the entire package. The gatefold sleeves looking for any hidden meaning in the artwork. We handled the vinyl with care less we damage it. We appreciated the artistry rather than the celebrity. And like the article says... Our sound systems/stereos mattered. No listening to songs on tinnie headphones or worse, the built in speaker of a smartphone! We listened for nuance and loved the studio trickery for stereo or quadrophonics! Kids today (there are clearly exceptions) simply do not have that same appreciation and music has too many competitors for teenage time and money. Personally I am glad I was a teen in the 80s rather than now.

I too was a teen in the 80s and I absolutely love and agree with your post. Those years were a wonderful time to experience music in all its various aspects (the music itself, the packaging, the excitement over new releases, etc), and there was a magic and reverence for it all that's been lost since those days.

Some of those album covers were a work of art, in themselves.

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Reply #12 posted 06/16/18 7:33pm

udo

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Thanks for the link!

Pills and thrills and daffodils will kill
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Reply #13 posted 06/18/18 9:36am

steakfinger

jaypotton said:

That article sums up my feelings pretty well. I think I am from the last generation for whom music really mattered. We listened to albums (and concept albums) not simply seeing music as a commodity for a quick fix. We revered the entire package. The gatefold sleeves looking for any hidden meaning in the artwork. We handled the vinyl with care less we damage it. We appreciated the artistry rather than the celebrity. And like the article says... Our sound systems/stereos mattered. No listening to songs on tinnie headphones or worse, the built in speaker of a smartphone! We listened for nuance and loved the studio trickery for stereo or quadrophonics! Kids today (there are clearly exceptions) simply do not have that same appreciation and music has too many competitors for teenage time and money. Personally I am glad I was a teen in the 80s rather than now.

You are completely wrong, but I can see why you might feel that way. There is more and BETTER music being made today, it's just not on the radio. You have to know what it is to know where to look. If you're looking for top 40 music to be great then you are right about those days being over. There are people doing stuff Prince did not, could not, and would not, but there are no avenues for the to have the visiblity for folks like you to notice them. There's a larger world out there, it's just under your radar.

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Reply #14 posted 06/18/18 10:16am

MickyDolenz

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jaypotton said:
We revered the entire package. The gatefold sleeves looking for any hidden meaning in the artwork. We handled the vinyl with care less we damage it. We appreciated the artistry rather than the celebrity.

And like the article says... Our sound systems/stereos mattered. No listening to songs on tinnie headphones or worse, the built in speaker of a smartphone! We listened for nuance and loved the studio trickery for stereo or quadrophonics!

Not necessarily so. Most people had a cheap component set from a department store like Montgomery Wards, TG&Y, Sears or the flea market or they had a small transister AM/FM radio that was mono, a Walkman, or a boombox (some smaller cassette boomboxes also had one speaker). Like stack several records so another would fall when one finished. With 45s, sometimes more than one would fall, so you had to reload the skipped record. lol

8-tracks weren't really known for their sound quality and neither were earlier cassettes. 8-tracks would often cut off in the middle of a song, fade out then fade back in on the next program. 8-tracks didn't have credits and not always with cassettes or it was too tiny to read if it was. Even with records, sound quality differed depending on the label, producer, who was engineering, or how it was pressed. King Records was known for melting down unsold records (with the paper label) to make new ones because Syd Nathan was cheap. The sound quality of recycled vinyl is less than fresh.

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #15 posted 06/19/18 5:20am

databank

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MickyDolenz said:

jaypotton said:
We revered the entire package. The gatefold sleeves looking for any hidden meaning in the artwork. We handled the vinyl with care less we damage it. We appreciated the artistry rather than the celebrity.

And like the article says... Our sound systems/stereos mattered. No listening to songs on tinnie headphones or worse, the built in speaker of a smartphone! We listened for nuance and loved the studio trickery for stereo or quadrophonics!

Not necessarily so. Most people had a cheap component set from a department store like Montgomery Wards, TG&Y, Sears or the flea market or they had a small transister AM/FM radio that was mono, a Walkman, or a boombox (some smaller cassette boomboxes also had one speaker). Like stack several records so another would fall when one finished. With 45s, sometimes more than one would fall, so you had to reload the skipped record. lol

8-tracks weren't really known for their sound quality and neither were earlier cassettes. 8-tracks would often cut off in the middle of a song, fade out then fade back in on the next program. 8-tracks didn't have credits and not always with cassettes or it was too tiny to read if it was. Even with records, sound quality differed depending on the label, producer, who was engineering, or how it was pressed. King Records was known for melting down unsold records (with the paper label) to make new ones because Syd Nathan was cheap. The sound quality of recycled vinyl is less than fresh.

Clearly, I was listening to cassettes on a boombox and so did 99% of my friends when I was in secondary school. Then it became CD's on a boombox. And from what I could gather the equipment kids had in the LP age wasn't state of the art either.Claiming that pre-digital age teenagers were audiophiles owning expensive hi-fi systems is ridiculously revisionist.

So is us "appreciated artistry rather than celebrity".

This is generational bullying, just like when our baby boomer parents used to lecture us that we Xers and Yers were spoiled brats that didn't appreciate blah blah blah and that they used to be so much better than us and that when they were young things were so much better than today blah blah blah. When you start bullying the kids like that it means one thing and one thing only: you're becoming old, outdated and irrelevant.

Those kids today are not worse than we were, and while I think growing-up in as an Xer/Yer was a fascinating experience in a fascinating era, I do not believe for a second that we were better off than today's kids, on any account. God, when the internet appeared we were all "Damn, why didn't we have the internet when we were kids?", and now we gonna be like "We were better off without the internet"? Nonsense.

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #16 posted 06/19/18 7:00am

lemoncrush19

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hell yes ... we all had the best gear back in the days ... waaayyyyyy better than what kids have today lol lol lol

Bildergebnis für kassette bandsalat princeBildergebnis für walkman 1982


the only love there is is the love we make heart
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Reply #17 posted 07/19/18 1:16pm

paulludvig

BartVanHemelen said:

Bob Lefsetz got a glimpse at some of the contents of Prince's vault: http://lefsetz.com/wordpr...ces-vault/ .


.


(ATTN to all those that are thinking about copy-pasting the whole thing here: respect the copyrights. It's not like clicking a link is such a hassle.)


.

[Edited 6/16/18 5:57am]



At the same time I could have said much the same things as Lefsetz after listening through part of my bootleg collection.
The wooh is on the one!
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Reply #18 posted 07/19/18 2:54pm

luvsexy4all

is this a subtle way of promoting ???

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Reply #19 posted 07/19/18 2:55pm

djThunderfunk

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OperatingThetan said:

If they did bother talking to genuine fans they might discover what has already been circulating on the bootleg scene for years...


When I heard Susan Rogers speak a year ago, she mentioned communication with some collectors. But, she didn't say who the collectors were and it kind of seems like if their advice was good it has been ignored. wink

"When you listen to fools, the Mob Rules" - Black Sabbath
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Reply #20 posted 07/19/18 3:11pm

djThunderfunk

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Sydney said:

I totally agree with Bart and feel further that Warner, while obliging and enthusiastic, seem oblivious to the knowledge of the hard core Prince community amongst who'se leaders could advise on very commerical Prince catalogue packages for the fans. I feel in a way the upcoming Piano & Microphone release is a case in point - perhaps if the company had investigated the hard core/bootleg history of Prince underground releases they would have known how many have already accessed and shared that rehearsal. While not a reason not to release such beauty but perhaps it could be in additon to another release or at the very least seriously enhanced -we will see. While I am not advocating the label or Estate pander to the elitist whims of the collectors it is a good starting point to determine what Prince catalogue can cause the most excitiement and interest. I have said many times to the Australian label that Warner should consider the packaging and concepts of the Prince bootleg releases to date to get an indication of what the fans would love. While these posthomous releases shouldnt just be aimed at the hard core fans it is essential to engaage them as otherwise any heritage release could fall immediately flat. Prince's un-released catalogue is a goldmine and blessing for those who own it - you could role it out and re-package it in various forms for the next ten years and triple your profit. I for one would buy anything that comes out officlally (and un-offically) from the great man.

[Edited 6/16/18 3:31am]


While I myself am completely underwhelmed by the P&M83 release, I've collected Prince bootlegs long enough to remember when it was a highly regarded bootleg. Back then, the vinyl copy I had sounded so bad that I never understood the love most heaped on it. Later, when better quality versions were bootlegged, I found some love for the set, it still wasn't a favorite, but I rated it much higher.

Now that an even better quality (likely the best in existence) is to recieve an official release, I read mostly negative opinions of the material. As I said, I agree that this is a horrible choice as a first vault release and has minimal commercial value and hold with the opinions that this should be part of a larger release or a limited fans only release.

What I don't agree with is the current opinion that nobody wants this material in the best quality possible. And, I worry that the label(s) & estate will come to the conclusion that the fans don't want official releases of material we've heard before on bootlegs. Surely this is not the case. I'm pretty sure that if they were to release complete soundboards of New Morning 87 or Camden 88 most of us would freak out with joy. But if "they" see our comments on P&M83, "they" will probably come to the conclusion that we wouldn't be interested in those shows because we've heard them already.

I guess what I'm getting at is I think we should be precise and clear about our complaints. Of course, if "they" would actually communicate openly and honestly with us, we wouldn't have this problem....

"When you listen to fools, the Mob Rules" - Black Sabbath
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Reply #21 posted 07/19/18 3:13pm

luvsexy4all

they must be trying to build a momentum s-l-o-w-l-y

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Reply #22 posted 07/19/18 3:26pm

BartVanHemelen

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djThunderfunk said:

What I don't agree with is the current opinion that nobody wants this material in the best quality possible.

.

Sorry, but it's a 35 year old cassette tape, "best quality possible" has long left the building (and one could argue that it might never really have entered the building in the first place). It is a unique capture of a rare performance, but all in all asking people to pay good money for this is ridiculous. If I were to make a list of "things I want to hear in the best qulity possible" this wouldn't even crack the top 50.

© Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.
It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for
your use. All rights reserved.
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Reply #23 posted 07/19/18 3:53pm

djThunderfunk

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BartVanHemelen said:

djThunderfunk said:

What I don't agree with is the current opinion that nobody wants this material in the best quality possible.

.

Sorry, but it's a 35 year old cassette tape, "best quality possible" has long left the building (and one could argue that it might never really have entered the building in the first place). It is a unique capture of a rare performance, but all in all asking people to pay good money for this is ridiculous. If I were to make a list of "things I want to hear in the best qulity possible" this wouldn't even crack the top 50.


That's cool, Bart. It wouldn't make my top 50 either. Possibly not my top 100.

That said, until this release was announced, this material was considered a treasure to many bootleg collectors and often mentioned when people discussed favorite bootlegs.... even back in the day when the best circulating quality was barely listenable. When the upgrades surfaced, they recieved much love. From what we've heard (Mary...Weep) the quality of this release is much better than the best circulating bootleg. The cassette is the best that exists AND much better than is circulating, so, those that love the material should want this in their collection. Even those of us that would rather have 50 to 100 (or more) other things first.

I'm not arguing that this isn't a monumentally bad idea as a first vault release, obviously it is. I'm merely challenging the idea that nobody likes the material and expressing my hope that "they" don't get the wrong impression that "we" don't want official releases of material we've already heard on bootleg.


"When you listen to fools, the Mob Rules" - Black Sabbath
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Reply #24 posted 07/19/18 6:08pm

SquirrelMeat

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To be fair to WB, they can't win.

I agreed with DJ and Bart that I would not have put this in my top 50 of choices of release, but equally, had WB chosen to cobble togther a selection of tracks without exact session relevance, we'd be screaming that they are not honouring the legacy.

If they had chosen to release say, the Camille album, their would be a equal backlash; those that say there is little new, those that would say it's the perfect project to put out, and those that would argue that if Prince wanted this released, he would have done it.

Although I would not have picked this piano session as the first major release, I would stand behind the idea of 'sessions' rather than inaccurate discs like the PR deluxe, even though I have more interest in the incorrect content than the session material.

.
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Reply #25 posted 07/19/18 6:58pm

djThunderfunk

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SquirrelMeat said:

To be fair to WB, they can't win.

TRUTH!

No matter what gets released, unless it's the bulk of the Vault uploaded with full access for the price of subscription service, many will complain. Even if they did an online service like I mentioned, some of US (who me?) would complain about a lack of physical releases.

They can't win. Wonder if they know that yet? lol

"When you listen to fools, the Mob Rules" - Black Sabbath
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Reply #26 posted 07/19/18 10:10pm

udo

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SquirrelMeat said:

To be fair to WB, they can't win.

.

Sure, but there is not a big slice of the people here saying that this upcoming Piano release is the best thing since sliced bread either.

I.e.: it shows that they did not spend some effort, it shows that the price is not right and the timing is wrong amongst other things.

Pills and thrills and daffodils will kill
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Reply #27 posted 07/20/18 1:35am

BartVanHemelen

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SquirrelMeat said:

To be fair to WB, they can't win.

.

Sure, but this release feels like they aren't even trying.

.


If they had chosen to release say, the Camille album, their would be a equal backlash; those that say there is little new, those that would say it's the perfect project to put out, and those that would argue that if Prince wanted this released, he would have done it.

.

Camille would have been a great RSD release. Better than a 1-LP version of 1999.

© Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.
It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for
your use. All rights reserved.
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Reply #28 posted 07/20/18 3:07am

Mackopolis44

Personally speaking, I'm just going to keep listening to whatever is released and hope that they aren't going to dredge the vault dry.
Less is more sometimes!
If I get to the point where I feel like they're just bombarding us with new findings it might make me switch off!
Equally true is the fact that you can't keep everyone happy. Some will inevitably complain. That's life +😎✌❤
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Reply #29 posted 07/20/18 3:18am

NorthC

BartVanHemelen said:

Bob Lefsetz got a glimpse at some of the contents of Prince's vault: http://lefsetz.com/wordpr...ces-vault/ .


.


(ATTN to all those that are thinking about copy-pasting the whole thing here: respect the copyrights. It's not like clicking a link is such a hassle.)


.

[Edited 6/16/18 5:57am]


What information? It's nicely written, but it tells us absolutely nothing.
Never try to discourage thinking, for you are sure to succeed.
Bertrand Russell
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Forums > Prince: Music and More > Hey Warners et al, how about giving fans as much information as you're giving to industry insiders like Bob Lefsetz?