Former thread: http://prince.org/msg/7/452603

Continue the discussion here.

Please be civil. All rules apply.

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed, but do we know how many pills he took on April 21st? Did he just take one Pill that contained Fentanyl (and how long can you find it in his blood, maybe he OD'd on the same mix six days earlier, I'm asking because of that high level of Fentanly found in his blood) or did he take more pills?

And another question would be, besides the missing suicide note, how does the police rule out suicide when it was an OD? (No I don't believe that he killed himself), but how does this work.

[Edited 3/28/18 6:33am]

My understanding is that the pill was marked as Hydrocodone but was laced with a lethal dose of fentanyl. Prince was likely unaware he was taking fentanyl and didn't test for any prior history of fentanyl use.

OperatingThetan said:

My understanding is that the pill was marked as Hydrocodone but was laced with a lethal dose of fentanyl. Prince was likely unaware he was taking fentanyl and didn't test for any prior history of fentanyl use.

So that's how they ruled it out then? I'm sorry for asking tho but there were so many threads about this subject, I don't remember everything about it.

ThatWhiteDude said:

206Michelle said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed, but do we know how many pills he took on April 21st? Did he just take one Pill that contained Fentanyl (and how long can you find it in his blood, maybe he OD'd on the same mix six days earlier, I'm asking because of that high level of Fentanly found in his blood) or did he take more pills?

And another question would be, besides the missing suicide note, how does the police rule out suicide when it was an OD? (No I don't believe that he killed himself), but how does this work.

[Edited 3/28/18 6:33am]

These are good question, TWD. Here is an article explaining how fentanyl works: Why fentanyl is deadlier than heroin, in a single photo By Allison Bond STAT online https://www.statnews.com/...an-heroin/

Thanks for the link! “In a fentanyl overdose, you may not be able to totally revive the person with the Narcan dose you have,” That's interesting, didn't they say they gave him two narcan shots to revive him? Or does that mean that narcan won't work at all?

[Edited 3/28/18 6:57am]

[Edited 3/28/18 6:58am]

ThatWhiteDude said:

Yes this has all been discussed

-

No, we don't know how many pills, just how much fentanyl (as others have noted it doesn't take much volume to supply the mgs of fentanyl he had in his body(.

-

What I've found about how long fentanyl lasts in the body: depends on the ingestion method, but typically from 11 hours to about 3 days. (I haven't read about any one test that can determine if someone ever used fentanyl, just if the drug is currently in their blood or urine).

For suicide: Page 316 of this report describes how a ME makes that determination:

https://static1.squarespa...uicide.pdf

-

There are a list of factors, including physical evidence and the person's history as reported by witnesses (i.e., previous attempts, evidence of dispair, major life crises, evidence of end-of-life planning etc.).

ThatWhiteDude said:

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed, but do we know how many pills he took on April 21st? Did he just take one Pill that contained Fentanyl (and how long can you find it in his blood, maybe he OD'd on the same mix six days earlier, I'm asking because of that high level of Fentanly found in his blood) or did he take more pills?

And another question would be, besides the missing suicide note, how does the police rule out suicide when it was an OD? (No I don't believe that he killed himself), but how does this work.

[Edited 3/28/18 6:33am]

[Edited 3/28/18 7:25am]

206Michelle said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed, but do we know how many pills he took on April 21st? Did he just take one Pill that contained Fentanyl (and how long can you find it in his blood, maybe he OD'd on the same mix six days earlier, I'm asking because of that high level of Fentanly found in his blood) or did he take more pills?

And another question would be, besides the missing suicide note, how does the police rule out suicide when it was an OD? (No I don't believe that he killed himself), but how does this work.

[Edited 3/28/18 6:33am]

Here is some more information: “Fentanyl, a potent narcotic analgesic, was developed in 1960. It is used in the treat- ment of breakthrough cancer pain and other chronic pain, and in surgical anaesthesia. Fentanyl activates the same receptors as morphine, and is therefore classied as an opioid. Fentanyl belongs to a family of drugs based on a phenylethylpiperidine backbone, and possesses multiple sites for the addition or substitution of various chemical functional groups to produce subfamilies of compounds with similar or even higher analgesic or toxic effect. Fentanyl and its analogues are characterized by potencies typically higher than that of morphine—up to several thousand times in the case of carfentanil or remifentanil, but typically of the order of ten to five hundred times morphine’s potency. They typically have a short duration of action, rapid onset of effect, high lipid solubility, few cardiovascular risks, and in contrast to morphine, low histamine release [25]. Pharmaceutical fentanyls are known to have a significant first pass effect, being rapidly metabolized in the liver. Subsequently, these are not administered therapeutically by the enteric route but instead by transmucosal methods, such as sublingual or buccal routes (lozenge, “lollipop”, or spray), in the management of breakthrough pain. For the treatment of chronic pain, fentanyl is administered by a transdermal patch. For surgical use and anaesthesia, fentanyls are administered by intramuscular or intrathecal methods as a nerve block, or by intravenous methods [26]. Pharmaceutical prepara- tions of fentanyl have been diverted for abuse, with users applying multiple patches, or extracting, chewing, or smoking gel reservoirs from fentanyl patches [27–31].” . Source: United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, 2017 “Recommended methods for the Identifcation and Analysis of Fentanyl and its Analogues in Biological Specimens” https://www.unodc.org/doc...ntanyl.pdf [Edited 3/28/18 7:08am]

That's pretty interesting

Thanks for the link

disch said:

Yes this has all been discussed

For suicide: Page 316 of this report describes how a ME makes that determination:

https://static1.squarespa...uicide.pdf

-

There are a list of factors, including physical evidence and the person's history as reported by witnesses (i.e., previous attempts, evidence of dispair, major life crises, evidence of end-of-life planning etc.).

ThatWhiteDude said:

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed, but do we know how many pills he took on April 21st? Did he just take one Pill that contained Fentanyl (and how long can you find it in his blood, maybe he OD'd on the same mix six days earlier, I'm asking because of that high level of Fentanly found in his blood) or did he take more pills?

And another question would be, besides the missing suicide note, how does the police rule out suicide when it was an OD? (No I don't believe that he killed himself), but how does this work.

[Edited 3/28/18 6:33am]

Phone call from Prince's emergency landing at MLI

.

.

In 2016.. just six days before he died of a fentanyl overdose. Prince's plane made an emergency landing at Quad City International Airport.

.

TV-6 has recently obtained the call records from April 15, 2016, when Prince was on board his private plane, needing medical attention. That was a one a.m. phone call from the Quad City International Airport to the Moline Fire Department for help.

.

Source: http://www.kwqc.com/conte...21483.html

.

The 911 call and a heavily redacted version of the Comprehensive Report are also available.

206Michelle said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

206Michelle said:

ThatWhiteDude said: These are good question, TWD. Here is an article explaining how fentanyl works: Why fentanyl is deadlier than heroin, in a single photo By Allison Bond STAT online https://www.statnews.com/...an-heroin/

Thanks for the link! “In a fentanyl overdose, you may not be able to totally revive the person with the Narcan dose you have,” That's interesting, didn't they say they gave him two narcan shots to revive him? Or does that mean that narcan won't work at all?

[Edited 3/28/18 6:57am]

[Edited 3/28/18 6:58am]

My understanding is that Prince received two Narcan shots in Moline, IL.

.

However, I have read nothing indicating that he received Narcan shots at PP on 04/21/16. I found the following documents from his death investigation (Source: http://www.mncourts.gov/m...ex-3.pdf):

Your Affiant, Detective Christina Wagner is a licensed Peace Officer with the State of Minnesota and has remained in that position for the past 15 years. During that time your affiant has been employed with the Carver County Sheriffs Office. Your affiant is currently assigned to the Criminal Investigations Division where she has served for the past 8 years. During that time, Your affiant has attended numerous law enforcement trainings related to investigations. During that time, your affiant has investigated cases of homicide, aggravated assault, robbery, sexual assault, burglary, theft, and drug related cases among others. As part of her assignment, Your affiant obtained the following information;

.

On April 21, 2016 at 0943 hrs., Carver County Sheriff Deputies were dispatched to Paisley Park Studios, 7801 Audubon Road in Chanhassen for a medical where a person was found in an elevator and not breathing. Deputies responded to the scene and located the party, identified as Prince Rogers Nelson dob/06-07-195 8. Prince was unresponsive and pronounced deceased at the scene. He was 57 years old.

.

Your Affiant was made aware by witnesses that were interviewed at the scene, that Prince recently had a history of going through withdrawals, which are believed to be the result of the abuse of prescription medication.

.

Further, Your Affiant received information from interviews conducted, that Prince’s assistants had arranged a meeting between Prince and medical professionals to assess and address Prince’s medical concerns. Your affiant learned that Prince had “passed out” during a flight from Atlanta, Ga to Minneapolis on Thursday 04—1 5-16 into Friday 04-16-16 after a concert in Atlanta. Prince’s private jet made an emergency stop at the Quad International Airport in Moline, I1. According to one of the witnesses interviewed, Prince admitted to taking 1-2 “pain pills”.

(p. 3 of the document)

.......

It's like a punch in the gut to read this again.

206Michelle said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

Thanks for the link! “In a fentanyl overdose, you may not be able to totally revive the person with the Narcan dose you have,” That's interesting, didn't they say they gave him two narcan shots to revive him? Or does that mean that narcan won't work at all?

[Edited 3/28/18 6:57am]

[Edited 3/28/18 6:58am]

My understanding is that Prince received two Narcan shots in Moline, IL.

.

However, I have read nothing indicating that he received Narcan shots at PP on 04/21/16. I found the following documents from his death investigation (Source: http://www.mncourts.gov/m...ex-3.pdf):

Your Affiant, Detective Christina Wagner is a licensed Peace Officer with the State of Minnesota and has remained in that position for the past 15 years. During that time your affiant has been employed with the Carver County Sheriffs Office. Your affiant is currently assigned to the Criminal Investigations Division where she has served for the past 8 years. During that time, Your affiant has attended numerous law enforcement trainings related to investigations. During that time, your affiant has investigated cases of homicide, aggravated assault, robbery, sexual assault, burglary, theft, and drug related cases among others. As part of her assignment, Your affiant obtained the following information;

.

On April 21, 2016 at 0943 hrs., Carver County Sheriff Deputies were dispatched to Paisley Park Studios, 7801 Audubon Road in Chanhassen for a medical where a person was found in an elevator and not breathing. Deputies responded to the scene and located the party, identified as Prince Rogers Nelson dob/06-07-195 8. Prince was unresponsive and pronounced deceased at the scene. He was 57 years old.

.

Your Affiant was made aware by witnesses that were interviewed at the scene, that Prince recently had a history of going through withdrawals, which are believed to be the result of the abuse of prescription medication.

.

Further, Your Affiant received information from interviews conducted, that Prince’s assistants had arranged a meeting between Prince and medical professionals to assess and address Prince’s medical concerns. Your affiant learned that Prince had “passed out” during a flight from Atlanta, Ga to Minneapolis on Thursday 04—1 5-16 into Friday 04-16-16 after a concert in Atlanta. Prince’s private jet made an emergency stop at the Quad International Airport in Moline, I1. According to one of the witnesses interviewed, Prince admitted to taking 1-2 “pain pills”.

(p. 3 of the document)

.......

It's like a punch in the gut to read this again.

It is So did Prince OD on Fentanyl in Moline too, or was it something else?

LOVESYMBOLNUMBER2 said:

206Michelle said:

Here is some more information: “Fentanyl, a potent narcotic analgesic, was developed in 1960. It is used in the treat- ment of breakthrough cancer pain and other chronic pain, and in surgical anaesthesia. Fentanyl activates the same receptors as morphine, and is therefore classied as an opioid. Fentanyl belongs to a family of drugs based on a phenylethylpiperidine backbone, and possesses multiple sites for the addition or substitution of various chemical functional groups to produce subfamilies of compounds with similar or even higher analgesic or toxic effect. Fentanyl and its analogues are characterized by potencies typically higher than that of morphine—up to several thousand times in the case of carfentanil or remifentanil, but typically of the order of ten to five hundred times morphine’s potency. They typically have a short duration of action, rapid onset of effect, high lipid solubility, few cardiovascular risks, and in contrast to morphine, low histamine release [25]. Pharmaceutical fentanyls are known to have a significant first pass effect, being rapidly metabolized in the liver. Subsequently, these are not administered therapeutically by the enteric route but instead by transmucosal methods, such as sublingual or buccal routes (lozenge, “lollipop”, or spray), in the management of breakthrough pain. For the treatment of chronic pain, fentanyl is administered by a transdermal patch. For surgical use and anaesthesia, fentanyls are administered by intramuscular or intrathecal methods as a nerve block, or by intravenous methods [26]. Pharmaceutical prepara- tions of fentanyl have been diverted for abuse, with users applying multiple patches, or extracting, chewing, or smoking gel reservoirs from fentanyl patches [27–31].” . Source: United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, 2017 “Recommended methods for the Identifcation and Analysis of Fentanyl and its Analogues in Biological Specimens” https://www.unodc.org/doc...ntanyl.pdf [Edited 3/28/18 7:08am]

He did not take pharmaceutical fentanyl, he took a fentanyl analog which makes it much more difficult to analyze

The information from the UNODC addresses both fentanyl and its analogies. The information about administration of pharmaceutical fentanyl is important because pharmaceutical fentanyl is not administered orally (so that it passes through the intestines), but rather transmucosally or transdermally. However, my understanding is that Prince injested the fentanyl orally.

Per the 6/8/16 warrant: "The Doctor who treated Prince documented Prince as suffereing from an opiate overdose." The specific type of opioid (fentanyl or otherwise) has never been specified in a public report.

ThatWhiteDude said:

206Michelle said:

My understanding is that Prince received two Narcan shots in Moline, IL.

.

However, I have read nothing indicating that he received Narcan shots at PP on 04/21/16. I found the following documents from his death investigation (Source: http://www.mncourts.gov/m...ex-3.pdf):

Your Affiant, Detective Christina Wagner is a licensed Peace Officer with the State of Minnesota and has remained in that position for the past 15 years. During that time your affiant has been employed with the Carver County Sheriffs Office. Your affiant is currently assigned to the Criminal Investigations Division where she has served for the past 8 years. During that time, Your affiant has attended numerous law enforcement trainings related to investigations. During that time, your affiant has investigated cases of homicide, aggravated assault, robbery, sexual assault, burglary, theft, and drug related cases among others. As part of her assignment, Your affiant obtained the following information;

.

On April 21, 2016 at 0943 hrs., Carver County Sheriff Deputies were dispatched to Paisley Park Studios, 7801 Audubon Road in Chanhassen for a medical where a person was found in an elevator and not breathing. Deputies responded to the scene and located the party, identified as Prince Rogers Nelson dob/06-07-195 8. Prince was unresponsive and pronounced deceased at the scene. He was 57 years old.

.

Your Affiant was made aware by witnesses that were interviewed at the scene, that Prince recently had a history of going through withdrawals, which are believed to be the result of the abuse of prescription medication.

.

Further, Your Affiant received information from interviews conducted, that Prince’s assistants had arranged a meeting between Prince and medical professionals to assess and address Prince’s medical concerns. Your affiant learned that Prince had “passed out” during a flight from Atlanta, Ga to Minneapolis on Thursday 04—1 5-16 into Friday 04-16-16 after a concert in Atlanta. Prince’s private jet made an emergency stop at the Quad International Airport in Moline, I1. According to one of the witnesses interviewed, Prince admitted to taking 1-2 “pain pills”.

(p. 3 of the document)

.......

It's like a punch in the gut to read this again.

It is So did Prince OD on Fentanyl in Moline too, or was it something else?

[Edited 3/28/18 8:05am]

Here's another article which explains how fentanyl works in less-technical language.

.

Why the Pain Drug That Killed Prince Can Be Especially Dangerous

By Stephani Sutherland, Scientific American (online)

June 6, 2016

Source: https://www.scientificame...dangerous/

.

Excerpts:

Many questions still remain about the tragic and untimely death of musician and cultural icon Prince, but a report released last Thursday by the Anoka County, Minn., Midwest Medical Examiner’s Office answered a big one: Prince’s death was caused by an accidental overdose of the powerful opioid drug fentanyl. Little is known for certain about the circumstances leading up to his death but it now appears that, like millions of Americans, Prince was taking opioids to manage chronic pain.

.

Prince had a long history of clean, drug-free living, suggesting that he would not use street drugs. [...] Whatever the source, “we don’t know if Prince took the drug as directed or in excess,” says Lynn Webster, a pain and addiction specialist based in Salt Lake City and past president of the American Academy of Pain Medicine.

.

Despite the fact that Prince died of an overdose of an opioid drug, whether or not he might have been addicted is another matter. “I’m not so sure he was addicted,” Webster says. “I have not seen evidence that he was addicted.” An opioid user can develop tolerance and even physical dependence on the drugs without being addicted. Less than 10 percent of patients taking opioids for chronic pain develop addiction in the classical sense, Webster says.

.......

ThatWhiteDude said:

206Michelle said:

My understanding is that Prince received two Narcan shots in Moline, IL.

.

However, I have read nothing indicating that he received Narcan shots at PP on 04/21/16. I found the following documents from his death investigation (Source: http://www.mncourts.gov/m...ex-3.pdf):

Your Affiant, Detective Christina Wagner is a licensed Peace Officer with the State of Minnesota and has remained in that position for the past 15 years. During that time your affiant has been employed with the Carver County Sheriffs Office. Your affiant is currently assigned to the Criminal Investigations Division where she has served for the past 8 years. During that time, Your affiant has attended numerous law enforcement trainings related to investigations. During that time, your affiant has investigated cases of homicide, aggravated assault, robbery, sexual assault, burglary, theft, and drug related cases among others. As part of her assignment, Your affiant obtained the following information;

.

On April 21, 2016 at 0943 hrs., Carver County Sheriff Deputies were dispatched to Paisley Park Studios, 7801 Audubon Road in Chanhassen for a medical where a person was found in an elevator and not breathing. Deputies responded to the scene and located the party, identified as Prince Rogers Nelson dob/06-07-195 8. Prince was unresponsive and pronounced deceased at the scene. He was 57 years old.

.

Your Affiant was made aware by witnesses that were interviewed at the scene, that Prince recently had a history of going through withdrawals, which are believed to be the result of the abuse of prescription medication.

.

Further, Your Affiant received information from interviews conducted, that Prince’s assistants had arranged a meeting between Prince and medical professionals to assess and address Prince’s medical concerns. Your affiant learned that Prince had “passed out” during a flight from Atlanta, Ga to Minneapolis on Thursday 04—1 5-16 into Friday 04-16-16 after a concert in Atlanta. Prince’s private jet made an emergency stop at the Quad International Airport in Moline, I1. According to one of the witnesses interviewed, Prince admitted to taking 1-2 “pain pills”.

(p. 3 of the document)

.......

It's like a punch in the gut to read this again.

It is So did Prince OD on Fentanyl in Moline too, or was it something else?

My understanding is that the Moline incident occurred due to an overdose on Percocet.

Source:

"In Moline, few answers on Prince's emergency landing"

By Pam Louwagie and Stephen Montemayor Star Tribune staff writers

http://www.startribune.com/in-moline-answers-are-few-about-prince-s-emergency-landing/376861591/

On page 4 of the 6/8/16 warrant, there is the following:

"On April 14, 2016, Your Affiant is aware that Prince Rogers Nelson DOB 06/07/1978 travelled to Atlanta, GA for a concert. Among those travelling with Prince during this trip was Kirk Anthony Johnson DOB 9/22/ 1964.

.

Prince boarded a flight on April 15, 2016 to return to Minneapolis. While en route to Minneapolis, Prince suffered a medical emergency and the flight had to make an emergency landing in Moline, IL. The Doctor who treated Prince documented Prince as suffereing from an opiate overdose, however, Prince refused treatment at the hospital. Johnson told hospital staff Prince may have taken Percocet. Prince was released from the hospital later that morning."

disch said:

Per the 6/8/16 warrant: "The Doctor who treated Prince documented Prince as suffereing from an opiate overdose." The specific type of opioid (fentanyl or otherwise) has never been specified in a public report.

ThatWhiteDude said:

It is So did Prince OD on Fentanyl in Moline too, or was it something else?

[Edited 3/28/18 8:05am]

Deleted

[Edited 3/28/18 8:46am]

That article cites TMZ for the percocet info, but I don't think that was confirmed by a more reliable source. The 6/8 warrant says that "Johnson told hospital staff Prince may have taken Percocet." So Kirk speculated that at the time, appararantly ("may have taken.". To me it seems doubtful he actually ODed on Percocet: It would take quite a few legit Percocets to have that effect, and it's also possible he took one/some of his counterfeit pills that looked like Percocet but actually contained other stuff. Hard to know.

206Michelle said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

It is So did Prince OD on Fentanyl in Moline too, or was it something else?

My understanding is that the Moline incident occurred due to an overdose on Percocet.

Source:

"In Moline, few answers on Prince's emergency landing"

By Pam Louwagie and Stephen Montemayor Star Tribune staff writers

http://www.startribune.com/in-moline-answers-are-few-about-prince-s-emergency-landing/376861591/

[Edited 3/28/18 8:20am]

Not sure if anyone has already posted this, and no, I'm not going to check first before I share this...

Check Apollonia Kotero's FB page. She posted the following comment "Because he was killed. He wanted to live. Anyone who says the contrary , should be investigated." when linking to the Yahoo story about the amount the toxicology results: https://www.yahoo.com/new...rc=fauxdal

Thought this group would find her opinion interesting.

CDinwiddie said:

Not sure if anyone has already posted this, and no, I'm not going to check first before I share this...

Check Apollonia Kotero's FB page. She posted the following comment "Because he was killed. He wanted to live. Anyone who says the contrary , should be investigated." when linking to the Yahoo story about the amount the toxicology results: https://www.yahoo.com/new...rc=fauxdal

Thought this group would find her opinion interesting.

This was discussed yesterday.

I agree

disch said:

That article cites TMZ for the percocet info, but I don't think that was confirmed by a more reliable source. The 6/8 warrant says that "Johnson told hospital staff Prince may have taken Percocet." So Kirk speculated that at the time, appararantly ("may have taken.". To me it seems doubtful he actually ODed on Percocet: It would take quite a few legit Percocets to have that effect, and it's also possible he took one/some of his counterfeit pills that looked like Percocet but actually contained other stuff. Hard to know.

206Michelle said:

My understanding is that the Moline incident occurred due to an overdose on Percocet.

Source:

"In Moline, few answers on Prince's emergency landing"

By Pam Louwagie and Stephen Montemayor Star Tribune staff writers

http://www.startribune.com/in-moline-answers-are-few-about-prince-s-emergency-landing/376861591/

[Edited 3/28/18 8:20am]

Vashtix said:

No matter what he took he took enough to assure no reviving.

Exactly. He tried it a week earlier with a different drug and the Narcan brought him back.

purplegirl00 said:

Vashtix said:

No matter what he took he took enough to assure no reviving.

Exactly. He tried it a week earlier with a different drug and the Narcan brought him back.

Then why would he wait six days if he really wanted to die?

CDinwiddie said:

Not sure if anyone has already posted this, and no, I'm not going to check first before I share this...

Check Apollonia Kotero's FB page. She posted the following comment "Because he was killed. He wanted to live. Anyone who says the contrary , should be investigated." when linking to the Yahoo story about the amount the toxicology results: https://www.yahoo.com/new...rc=fauxdal

Thought this group would find her opinion interesting.

This is just an educated guess as I do not know Apples. Perhaps she is in denial and would rather believe that someone murdered him instead of coming to terms with the reality that all of the evidence indicates Prince died from a self-administered accidental overdose.