EnDoRpHn said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

No he wasn't. He was an insensitive prick who compared his luxurious job to slavery.

.

Moreover the likes of the Rolling Stones experienced much worse decades earlier. IIRC they still don't control all of their back catalogue.

.

Oh, and Prince signed that infamous $100 million contract of his own free will (and against the advice of his entourage) and was the first to release a press release, boasting that inflated number.

.

At the same time both REM and Metallica negotiated successfullywith WEA companies to gain the rights to their back catalogue. Meanwhile Prince behaved like a stubborn child instead of an adult, and sabotaged his own career by releasing substandard music.

And yet you're still here, more than a year after he died. What does that say about you?

That one can critically engage with a subject not just sycophantically engage with a subject? ... (did I spell that right?)

BartVanHemelen said:

Asenath0607 said:

He was astute and ahead of the game

.

No he wasn't. He was an insensitive prick who compared his luxurious job to slavery.

.

Moreover the likes of the Rolling Stones experienced much worse decades earlier. IIRC they still don't control all of their back catalogue.

.

Oh, and Prince signed that infamous $100 million contract of his own free will (and against the advice of his entourage) and was the first to release a press release, boasting that inflated number.

.

At the same time both REM and Metallica negotiated successfullywith WEA companies to gain the rights to their back catalogue. Meanwhile Prince behaved like a stubborn child instead of an adult, and sabotaged his own career by releasing substandard music.

lots of artists through history have signed contracts "of their own free will", only to feel ripped off down the track

do you honestly believe the record industry has dealt with artists in an honourable way?

.

[Edited 9/25/17 0:12am]

BartVanHemelen said:

Asenath0607 said:

He was astute and ahead of the game

.

No he wasn't. He was an insensitive prick who compared his luxurious job to slavery.

.

Moreover the likes of the Rolling Stones experienced much worse decades earlier. IIRC they still don't control all of their back catalogue.

.

Oh, and Prince signed that infamous $100 million contract of his own free will (and against the advice of his entourage) and was the first to release a press release, boasting that inflated number.

.

At the same time both REM and Metallica negotiated successfullywith WEA companies to gain the rights to their back catalogue. Meanwhile Prince behaved like a stubborn child instead of an adult, and sabotaged his own career by releasing substandard music.

You refuse to acknowledge what is going on in the music industry today due to streaming.

In addtion, I do not remember a lot of great music coming from REM ( who did not sell anywhere near the amout of music for WB after they got those masters back. )

If being stubborn means getting what you want and working for yourself so be it. It wasa his carreer to do as his pleased and look at WB today.

Who knew at the time that he was burning so much money?
Worse: lots of people had to sue him to get paid.

So the christic pose of this era, I'm over it.
It looked heroic at the time, but when you know how Prince dealt with money,
it's an eyebrow raiser to say the least.
There is a thin line that separates artistic freedom and careless, childish behaviour.

WB said "no more flushing money down the toilet",
while Prince was so full of himself he really thought
he could release and sell the world four platinum albums a year.

Paisley Park Entreprises faced the same problems when reality kicked in.

I think it was a mix of lack of dedication (you can't properly run a multi-million dollar business
when you're recording in Studio A before getting 4 hours of sleep before going to rehearsal with your band),

an inflation of the ego (even my farts are musical, let's wire the PP bathrooms),
and a sense of panick at the realization his inspiration was playing hide and seek (which is only normal after

packing a 50 years worth of musical works in just 15).

Asenath0607 said:

Feel like a total dotard (learned a new vocabulary word this week) for thinking that back when Prince wrote slave on his face he was out of is mind and simply seeking a new means of grabbing attention. Maybe if I had been on the Prince fan sites at the time, I would not have been so quick to believe the media narrative. He was astute and ahead of the game; others are seeing the light. I found this post to be very enlightening.

(Sorry, unsure how to link this)

https://travishoward.com/...roubadours

I was an entusastic teenager at the time, (16-18 during the WB wars) and I supported Prince thru the whole thing without a flinch. Of course, later on I learned about WB's side of the story, and my perpective on the whole matter became more contrasted. So in the end yes, I now know that Prince gave a lot of unnecessary shit to WB, and that he was being unreasonable in regards of certain things, but still...

.

For one thing, I still believe that Prince did something incredibly cool back then:

- The name change to a bloody unpronunceable symbol

- The provokative slave thing

- The artist rebelling against the major label and the music industry as a whole

- Playing only unreleased or obscure songs live, with a bare-bone band and a futuristic use of samples

- The whole mystic around it: the clothes, the looks, the attitude, the music videos, the Beautiful Experience films and mysterious promo tapes sent to European radios...

The whole package was daring and gutsy as hell, and that was cooler than cool. For me, at that age, it was extremely inspirational, Prince was just being the rebel as much as ever, and even taking it to the next stage.

I've often read here people who were my age at the time and who said that they felt embarrassed by public perception, or being bullied by morons because of Prince. I feel sorry for them. I remember hip people were being supportive at the time: the "cool" medias, fashion people, other artists and all... That was enough for me... In my view at the time, and in the view of other people I knew -some of them not even Prince fans!- either you got it and you were cool, or you didn't and you were just a moron, incapable to think out of the box. Some people would make fun of Prince and me because I was a Prince fan but I'd laugh back at them, because I knew the joke was on them, and indeed it was... So really it gave those of us who got it the feeling of being part of this kinda private club, and it was even cooler. We didn't fear ridicule, we were the cool ones, and cool cats are always being cursed by morons

.

Beyond this, I believe Prince took a stand by saying that musicians should have the freedom to release whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted. I still agree with this even though, unlike Prince, I will admit that if someone else is paying the bill, they should have a say.

Ever since, many musicians, critics and scholars have acknowledged that Prince had been pretty important historically at the time, in terms of empowering musicians and questioning the traditional record industry model. Bart is right when he says it could have been done differently, without all the fuss and cuss. On the other hand, Prince did more than those artists to make a public debate of the whole issue.

bonatoc said:

laurarichardson said:

laurarichardson said:

bonatoc said:

NorthC said:

laurarichardson said:

WB also cut off the cash flow to PP records which according to Eric Leeds never had enough funding and was a set up to fail. Quite a few people who were around back then have said Orince was right about s few things but I do not expect people on this board to acknowledge it. Look at WB today and look at the industry today. The evidence is there.

"Quite a few people have said" is not evidence. And the fact that the music industry is different from what is used to be is evidence of nothing else than that the Times They Are a-Changing.

Those people were around at the time when these events were occuring so it is evidence. The only other evidence would be some ex-WB executive showing internal memos.

Are you looking for internal memos? Because you have Mo Ostein saying after he was forced out Prince did not have very many people at WB advocating for him any more. Do you know who MO is?

Prince told us the music industry was going into a bad direction long before we the public saw it coming. Do you think he had a fucking crystal ball or was he just being real?

Do you think when he tried for a decade to get the CD bundled with the ticket price and venues were resistent to the idea that he did not know what he talking about.

AEG who promoted the Musicology tour said he was masterful and joy to work with. That project and the CD/Ticket bundle was Prince' s idea.

I knew it. I speak Prince.

SimonCharles said:

EnDoRpHn said:

BartVanHemelen said: And yet you're still here, more than a year after he died. What does that say about you?

That one can critically engage with a subject not just sycophantically engage with a subject? ... (did I spell that right?)

Methinks you should look up the definition of sycophant. Sounds like what you are doing here, and not with regard to Prince.

Asenath0607 said:

Feel like a total dotard (learned a new vocabulary word this week) for thinking that back when Prince wrote slave on his face he was out of is mind and simply seeking a new means of grabbing attention.

.

- I understood the Slave thing, but the Symbol name being a ´spiritual´ thing never convinced me much. I always thought it was a way of releasing things out of the name Prince and battle WB

EnDoRpHn said:

SimonCharles said:

That one can critically engage with a subject not just sycophantically engage with a subject? ... (did I spell that right?)

Methinks you should look up the definition of sycophant. Sounds like what you are doing here, and not with regard to Prince.

Please, explain why?

SimonCharles said:

EnDoRpHn said:

BartVanHemelen said: And yet you're still here, more than a year after he died. What does that say about you?

That one can critically engage with a subject not just sycophantically engage with a subject? ... (did I spell that right?)

Did you take the time to read the article to even know what is going on. It is not about people agreeing with stuff Prince said just because he said it. He was not always right but he was not always wrong either and sometimes people can dislike the messenger so much they do not hear the message.

https://travishoward.com/...roubadours

GustavoRibas said:

Asenath0607 said:

Feel like a total dotard (learned a new vocabulary word this week) for thinking that back when Prince wrote slave on his face he was out of is mind and simply seeking a new means of grabbing attention.

.

- I understood the Slave thing, but the Symbol name being a ´spiritual´ thing never convinced me much. I always thought it was a way of releasing things out of the name Prince and battle WB

Of course it was and he knew if he cut up enough he would get his walking papers. My understanding he walked away from WB owing them a few albums to close out the deal and nothing out of his pocket.

laurarichardson said:

NorthC said:

laurarichardson said:

Did you take the time to read the article to even know what is going on. It is not about people agreeing with stuff Prince said just because he said it. He was not always right but he was not always wrong either and sometimes people can dislike the messenger so much they do not hear the message.

https://travishoward.com/...roubadours

The funny thing is that the article doesn't even mention Prince, so what are we talking about, really?

THIS is the PART of the ARTICLE you need to pay attention to, inorder to Follow Laura..

Streaming is TAKING OVER ALL FORMS OF MUSIC DELIVERY. All forms. In 10 years there will be no radio. In 5 years there will be no downloads. So those lowball deals are slowly becoming the only way music makes money at all. Remember that 9.1 cents writers used to make? Well, now every stream makes something like $0.005. And of that, a writer makes maybe 15%. That's $0.00075 per stream. Writers were not asked to participate in these deals. Just given less than a decent waiter would make at a mediocre restaurant.

She is saying this is what Prince predicted over 30 years ago..THe Slave thing on his face was NO JOKE...

and it took SUCH GUTS

BartVanHemelen said:

Asenath0607 said:

He was astute and ahead of the game

.

No he wasn't. He was an insensitive prick who compared his luxurious job to slavery.

.

Moreover the likes of the Rolling Stones experienced much worse decades earlier. IIRC they still don't control all of their back catalogue.

.

Oh, and Prince signed that infamous $100 million contract of his own free will (and against the advice of his entourage) and was the first to release a press release, boasting that inflated number.

.

At the same time both REM and Metallica negotiated successfullywith WEA companies to gain the rights to their back catalogue. Meanwhile Prince behaved like a stubborn child instead of an adult, and sabotaged his own career by releasing substandard music.

Thats you to Prince and many people here. Even in his death you cant stop shitting on him

Lovejunky said:

NorthC said:

laurarichardson said: The funny thing is that the article doesn't even mention Prince, so what are we talking about, really?

THIS is the PART of the ARTICLE you need to pay attention to, inorder to Follow Laura..

Streaming is TAKING OVER ALL FORMS OF MUSIC DELIVERY. All forms. In 10 years there will be no radio. In 5 years there will be no downloads. So those lowball deals are slowly becoming the only way music makes money at all. Remember that 9.1 cents writers used to make? Well, now every stream makes something like $0.005. And of that, a writer makes maybe 15%. That's $0.00075 per stream. Writers were not asked to participate in these deals. Just given less than a decent waiter would make at a mediocre restaurant.

She is saying this is what Prince predicted over 30 years ago..THe Slave thing on his face was NO JOKE...

and it took SUCH GUTS

.

What do you think Prince predicted "over 30 years ago" exactly? That young consumers of music in 2017 would think they are entitled to any/all music they want to own without paying a dime for it?

.

That's the problem facing the music industry. The industry can't make money because there's no intake. It's ain't the record labels' fault. It all rests on the shoulders of the general public. Prince's fan base from the '80s and '90s has aged out of even being a factor -- look to the young millennials who've literally grown up without even a CONCEPT that music should be PAID for.

.

And it has fuck all to do with Prince and his petty bullshit "war" with Warner Bros. -- the business model in the recording industry has changed so much since the early-to-mid '90s, rendering his "struggle" irrelevant.

.

The deification of Prince is a terrible way to honor his legacy. Nobody enslaved Prince. And nobody but Prince foisted wack ass albums like 'Come' upon the public. And by the mid-'90s, with Prince edging closer and closer to 40, his days as a major hitmaker were over regardless of what quality music he was releasing. And he had trouble accepting that.

.

Great artist. Total shit businessman. No major music star has EVER so aggressively and willfully derailed his own career. His public feud with Warner didn't help him and it sure as hell didn't help anyone else. Prince would've been selling tapes out of a shoe box were it not for Warner (or some equivalent behemoth corp.) -- just like every other great artist currently posting killer music for free on Bandcamp because the record labels have been forced out of business by thieves.

^ So in the end Universal Basic Income is all the more a necessity, because recorded music isn't going to be profitable again anytime soon, and not every musician can, or wants to, play live gigs in order to make dough.

CAL3 said:

Lovejunky said:

THIS is the PART of the ARTICLE you need to pay attention to, inorder to Follow Laura..

Streaming is TAKING OVER ALL FORMS OF MUSIC DELIVERY. All forms. In 10 years there will be no radio. In 5 years there will be no downloads. So those lowball deals are slowly becoming the only way music makes money at all. Remember that 9.1 cents writers used to make? Well, now every stream makes something like $0.005. And of that, a writer makes maybe 15%. That's $0.00075 per stream. Writers were not asked to participate in these deals. Just given less than a decent waiter would make at a mediocre restaurant.

She is saying this is what Prince predicted over 30 years ago..THe Slave thing on his face was NO JOKE...

and it took SUCH GUTS

.

What do you think Prince predicted "over 30 years ago" exactly? That young consumers of music in 2017 would think they are entitled to any/all music they want to own without paying a dime for it?

.

That's the problem facing the music industry. The industry can't make money because there's no intake. It's ain't the record labels' fault. It all rests on the shoulders of the general public. Prince's fan base from the '80s and '90s has aged out of even being a factor -- look to the young millennials who've literally grown up without even a CONCEPT that music should be PAID for.

.

And it has fuck all to do with Prince and his petty bullshit "war" with Warner Bros. -- the business model in the recording industry has changed so much since the early-to-mid '90s, rendering his "struggle" irrelevant.

.

The deification of Prince is a terrible way to honor his legacy. Nobody enslaved Prince. And nobody but Prince foisted wack ass albums like 'Come' upon the public. And by the mid-'90s, with Prince edging closer and closer to 40, his days as a major hitmaker were over regardless of what quality music he was releasing. And he had trouble accepting that.

.

Great artist. Total shit businessman. No major music star has EVER so aggressively and willfully derailed his own career. His public feud with Warner didn't help him and it sure as hell didn't help anyone else. Prince would've been selling tapes out of a shoe box were it not for Warner (or some equivalent behemoth corp.) -- just like every other great artist currently posting killer music for free on Bandcamp because the record labels have been forced out of business by thieves.

No major artist has walked away from a major label and made a go of it for 20 years. He never had a traditional record contract after he left WB. He had deals with record labels were he was a partner in the project. He encouraged artist to own the master tape and have a record company only for marketing and distribution.

If his carreer was derailed were the hell did the money come from to get everything going from the fucking moon? Read about what AEG live had to say about the CD/Ticket bundle from the Musicology show and working with him in general. They made millions working with him for a few years.

http://www.billboard.com/articles/business/7356901/prince-super-bowl-halftime-musicology-tour-guru-john-meglen-interview

--

When you say flawless, does that mean financially?

Flawless. The tour grossed $88 million, and his net, after we paid for everything, was $44 million. When he got paid at the end of that tour, we handed him a check for what he made from those shows, and all he had to pay out of that was his taxes. It was the night before the last show, and he was so excited when we handed him that piece of paper, when he saw the number he jumped up and down. Then he sat down at a little electric piano in his dressing room and did a 20-minute Stevie Wonder rendition for Paul and I. He was so happy.

----

Prince made 4 dollars a cd. Do you think people are making that now in the industry or even back then he also made more money off that tour then he ever did under his old management or with WB.

Read it and weep. Not bad for a terrible business who died with 50 million in real estate and very little debt and who could afford to give entire receipts from whole concerts away to charity. He did this as late as 2012 - 2015.

How does a terrible businessmen pull that off?

Last year a young man name Chance the Rapper put out an album on streaming without a major label, had a number record and won a grammy and made millions.

This is what Prince was discussing. Work for yourself, own the product and if you can the platform to distrube it. Ownership is what he was discussing.

You also should realize that the labels have set up deals with streaming services were they received millions up front while the song writers and performers get a 1/4 of a penny. The labels agreed to those deals not the artist.

Lovejunky said:

NorthC said:

laurarichardson said: The funny thing is that the article doesn't even mention Prince, so what are we talking about, really?

THIS is the PART of the ARTICLE you need to pay attention to, inorder to Follow Laura..

Streaming is TAKING OVER ALL FORMS OF MUSIC DELIVERY. All forms. In 10 years there will be no radio. In 5 years there will be no downloads. So those lowball deals are slowly becoming the only way music makes money at all. Remember that 9.1 cents writers used to make? Well, now every stream makes something like $0.005. And of that, a writer makes maybe 15%. That's $0.00075 per stream. Writers were not asked to participate in these deals. Just given less than a decent waiter would make at a mediocre restaurant.

She is saying this is what Prince predicted over 30 years ago..THe Slave thing on his face was NO JOKE...

and it took SUCH GUTS

Nobody bothers to click on these links and I have tried to explain that to the mods. On this board we actually had an owner of a website thank the org for putting up his article because he got so much traffic from me posting the actual content.

People do not click they want to read and then they go to the site.

In the beginning I really didn't understand it either but I knew that if he did it, it had to be really important. i've learned to understand so much more about him in the last months sine his death.

Laura, these are valid points, but if we want to stay on topic, we are talking specifically about the "Slave" era.

No doubt Prince matured in the following years. Remember the Press Conference where he announced TAFKAP was back to be Prince again? The one where he wears glasses and a white turtleneck? He had the proper attitude and explained properly what was at stake, for him and all artists under contract.
He could have started the public debate this way, and no one would have giggled.

Still, there's a small problem: Prince is not your average artist when it comes to royalties: very few artists combine royalties from composition, lyrics, arrangements, production and performances.
From the very beginning, Prince cashed in more (relatively) than any other artist. It was only natural that the business reacted the way it did: "He's already making thrice the median artist income, what's he complaining about?".

[Edited 9/26/17 11:54am]

it will be in vain if the best vault music never gets heard...keeping his legacy alive

Everything started in the slave era and all of the things that occured later and even the manner is which he later explained himself had its gensis in the slave era.

Prince got off to a bad start explaining himself to the public but no one is perfect. He got better later.

As far a people giggling. I belive people were giggling at him from the very begining of his carreer.

I also believe if you do 3 times the work you deserve 3 times the money and anyone that has a problem with that is jealous and anyone in Prince' s industry who had a problem with him getting paid back then was green with envy.

bonatoc said:

Laura, these are valid points, but if we want to stay on topic, we are talking specifically about the "Slave" era.

No doubt Prince matured in the following years. Remember the Press Conference where he announced TAFKAP was back to be Prince again? The one where he wears glasses and a white turtleneck? He had the proper attitude and explained properly what was at stake, for him and all artists under contract.
He could have started the public debate this way, and no one would have giggled.

Still, there's a small problem: Prince is not your average artist when it comes to royalties: very few artists combine royalties from composition, lyrics, arrangements, production and performances.
From the very beginning, Prince cashed in more (relatively) than any other artist. It was only natural that the business reacted the way it did: "He's already making thrice the median artist income, what's he complaining about?".

[Edited 9/26/17 11:54am]

databank said:

laurarichardson said:

WB also cut off the cash flow to PP records which according to Eric Leeds never had enough funding and was a set up to fail. Quite a few people who were around back then have said Orince was right about s few things but I do not expect people on this board to acknowledge it. Look at WB today and look at the industry today. The evidence is there.

Regarding PP specifically, Alan also said that WB expected Prince to setup a real label and work his ass to promote it, while Prince just wanted to have records made and let WB deal with the rest. I am one of the fews who really loved that label, feels most of the records were good and enjoyed most of what was released on it, but I have to admit it lacked 2 things. One was focus: in the course of the same year you could get an experimental jazz-funk record by Madhouse, a synthpop record by Dale, a light pop-rock album by 3OC and a bland boys band record with Good Question. No one ever really understood what this all was about. There was clearly the vehicule for Prince's side project but the rest was a mixed bag of everything and its contrary. A big label operates like that but a small vanity label should have a clear identity targeted at a well defined target audience. The second thing lacking was solid artists that needed proper development. You know, as in strong songwriters with a clear view of what they wanted to BE as a musician, the kind of people who really had a potential and ambition to have a long and prolific career. Regardless of the cool albums they made, few had such a potential, or the will to carry on. When she established Maverick Madonna signed some powerful songwriters, musicians with a vision and a true commercial potential. People whose talent could rival hers. Paisley Park remained just that: the backyard of Prince's studio, where whomever ending-up hanging out could be lucky and have a records. I'll say it again: I LOVE most of those records, but that's just me. It would have taken more to reach the world...

Shit, that is what I absolutely LOVED about the PP label!! Where else could you go to get a wide-range of different music, given the formulaic bullshit that started taking over at the time? Prince may not have run this like a fine-tuned biz, but I understand, and agree with, his intent; to relase a shit-load of different types of music that couldn't be categorized.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Polo1026 said:

There certainly is a cycle that labels put artists through that can make one feel like a slave because the artist isn't actually profiting from the work like they should.

[Edited 9/24/17 15:10pm]

[Edited 9/24/17 15:10pm]

[Edited 9/24/17 15:13pm]

Whilst that may be true by and large, Prince wasn't exactly being made to go hungry. He had a multi million dollar playground called Paisley Park, other property interests, nice cars, cash and a bunch of people that worked for him. WB had helped to make Prince a multi millionaire so that tactic of keeping 'em hungry to sing to their tune wasn't quite panning out that way with Prince.


Personally I think it was a tactic that spiralled out of control. Prince realised he had just signed a ridiculous contract that neither party could fulfil, spotted a weakness in it and thought he could change his name to get out of it (or record music outside of it under a different name). But instead of calling himself Fred or Joe he thought it might be quite clever to use that symbol he created to gain media attention. After a while he realised he was being made the brunt of a few jokes by a small but vocal minority so he introduced some mystical bullshit into the equation. Then, when he realised that changing his name did not in anyway mean he could record outside of the WB contract he got pissed, wrote slave on his face and found himself so far down the rabbit hole, it wasn't until 2000 that he finally found his way out again.

Still, Im grateful he did it all. Mind you, if he hadnt have done that then he would only have done something just as ridiculous and Prince-like further down the line.