NikkiH said:

KoolEaze said:

Agree.

I never knew that he asked Bob Cavallo whether he should learn how to rap.

He shouldn´t have forced it. Prince had always incorporated current trends and new genres into his music, and I think he didn´t really need to use Tony M.

On the contrary, his reputation was pretty solid before he added fake rappers to his music, and it sounded very forced, especially Tony´s hypeman antics during the live shows, the constant "Say hoooooo, wave your hands in the air." bullshit to energize the audience when that wasn´t even really necessary.

I don´t even like those rap concert staples during real rap concert...they are just unnecessary in this day and age, especially if the songs are already good enough to keep the crowd moving.

Things would have worked out much better if he had let things happen naturally, maybe use rap elements like he did in Days of Wild and Now, or even 18 & Over but not the way he did around 91-93.

Those albums would have sold just fine without those added rap parts that really sound like an afterthought and very forced.

But on the other hand....when you think of some of those other rappers he used, like Scrap D, I think he was just trying to be nice and generous, giving some local rappers a chance to be on his album. Much to the detriment of said album and his fans.

I met Scrap D in 1996 and talked for quite some time with him, and while I dislike his contributions, it was interesting to speak about his experience and get to see his perspective on this.

I think he just didn't understand hip hop because he didn't listen to it and had pretty much written it off as a fad. Once he realized it wasn't a fad, it was too late commercially. I think he really only started undersanding it towards the latter part of the 90's into the 2000's when he got with Doug E., Chuck D., Q-Tip, Eve,Outkast, his contribution to Common's album,and finally the last couple of years with Kendrick. But like I've said before, I think he cut himself from musical experiences in a lot of ways also and I think hip-hop was just not his thing and he didn't have to incorporate it if he didn't understand it. But like I said, I think he was sort of going through of a transition of sorts and I think had he lived he would've found his way to enjoy and inspire even more artists.

Not really the late 90s....much earlier, around the time when Public Enemy´s first and second albums came out.

But I can relate to why he´d feel that way at first.

See, I actually come from a HipHop background. When I was a kid and later a teenager,I didn´t listen to many other genres except for Rap, i.e Whodini, Kurtis Blow, Run DMC, Ice-T, Rakim etc. etc. and my musical tastes were not very refined. I mean, of course I´d also listen to the mighty SOS Band and Midnight Star, Cameo, early ElectroFunk , Jody Watley, Sade and so on, and of course Prince.

-

-

But I was too young to understand that many rappers were basically just using instrumentals or replayed , re-recorded versions of older songs, and it was a bit later that I understood that some of the melodies I liked were actually not even samples but blatantly stolen melodies.

The thing is....most folks I knew who were into Rap also liked Prince. And so did I .

Most of the mixtapes I had in the early 80s would contain lots of Rap songs, but there would always be the occasional Prince song on them.

-

-

I think he didn´t really need to reach out to new audiences by chasing trends, or incorporating halfbaked ideas such as Tony M. into his music. He was already getting lots of respect for who he was and what he had achieved, and even today´s tough guys such as Dr.Dre tried to be like Prince and emulated his outfits and sexual and romantic lyrics.

We even had a thread about this not too long ago. With Dre wearing Prince-like outfits.

.

I´m a bit proud to have been there since the very early days of Rap and into Prince since 1984 and, looking back, there wasn´t really such a big divide. As a matter of fact, I lost a bit of interest in Prince´s music after he had become so huge in the mainstream pop music landscape but in hindsight, I perfectly understand why he´d distance himself from most rappers because, in hindsight, even I find most of the early Rap stuff very amateurish and immature. But on the other hand you also had highly creative groups that would create their own beats and melodies and write some deep lyrics.

Many rappers were big Prince fans and still are, for example Ice-T. I have this interview with Ice-T in his prime, must be from either 1987 or 1988, where Ice-T already talks about Prince having problems with WB and that the music biz is like pimping or prostitution, and that Prince is WB´s biggest bitch. But he does not come across as mean toward Prince.

-

Philly rapper SchoollyD dissed Prince pretty hard in the intro to his song "I Don´t Like RockNRoll" and also in interviews. But when Prince died he posted the album cover of Dirty Mind on his Facebook page and said that Prince was a major influence in his life.

Which surprised me a bit because I remembered that diss so I asked him why he had changed his mind. To which Schooly D replied that Prince would not respect rappers and diss them early on, but he changed his stance later, and Scholly D told me that he even performed at Prince´s clubs three times and that they got along very well. Just goes to show you how people and things change over the years.

-

But, all in all, I totally agree with your post, and I find a bit of consolation in the fact that Prince inspired so many people from all walks of life, all races, religions, and locations in the world, and that so many rappers looked up to him and celebrated and respected him while he was still among us. The names you mentioned are good examples. I´m a bit surprised though that I haven´t seen any reaction from Common but that´s ok. I remember they got along very well around 1999-2001 and I don´t expect everyone to post about Prince´s death but it was nice to see Snoop Dogg pay respect the other day with that touching article that he wrote on Prince ( I made a thread about it). I mean, he also dissed him a couple of times because Prince would not let him sample his music but it´s nice to still see him pay respect to Prince.

NorthC said:

Sorry guys, but this is really pissing me off. If Prince put Tony M or spoken parts on an album then that's how he wanted it to sound. Period. You don't mess with an artists' vision like that, as if you are a better judge of how Prince's music should sound than the man himself. If you don't like something, don't listen to it. It's as simple as that.

Hi, Mr. Lucas.

NorthC said:

Sorry guys, but this is really pissing me off. If Prince put Tony M or spoken parts on an album then that's how he wanted it to sound. Period. You don't mess with an artists' vision like that, as if you are a better judge of how Prince's music should sound than the man himself. If you don't like something, don't listen to it. It's as simple as that.

Prince is the one that shouldn't have ruined those records. It's a damn shame that it took him two records to realize this.

KoolEaze said:

NikkiH said:

I think he just didn't understand hip hop because he didn't listen to it and had pretty much written it off as a fad. Once he realized it wasn't a fad, it was too late commercially. I think he really only started undersanding it towards the latter part of the 90's into the 2000's when he got with Doug E., Chuck D., Q-Tip, Eve,Outkast, his contribution to Common's album,and finally the last couple of years with Kendrick. But like I've said before, I think he cut himself from musical experiences in a lot of ways also and I think hip-hop was just not his thing and he didn't have to incorporate it if he didn't understand it. But like I said, I think he was sort of going through of a transition of sorts and I think had he lived he would've found his way to enjoy and inspire even more artists.

Not really the late 90s....much earlier, around the time when Public Enemy´s first and second albums came out.

But I can relate to why he´d feel that way at first.

See, I actually come from a HipHop background. When I was a kid and later a teenager,I didn´t listen to many other genres except for Rap, i.e Whodini, Kurtis Blow, Run DMC, Ice-T, Rakim etc. etc. and my musical tastes were not very refined. I mean, of course I´d also listen to the mighty SOS Band and Midnight Star, Cameo, early ElectroFunk , Jody Watley, Sade and so on, and of course Prince.

-

-

But I was too young to understand that many rappers were basically just using instrumentals or replayed , re-recorded versions of older songs, and it was a bit later that I understood that some of the melodies I liked were actually not even samples but blatantly stolen melodies.

The thing is....most folks I knew who were into Rap also liked Prince. And so did I .

Most of the mixtapes I had in the early 80s would contain lots of Rap songs, but there would always be the occasional Prince song on them.

-

-

I think he didn´t really need to reach out to new audiences by chasing trends, or incorporating halfbaked ideas such as Tony M. into his music. He was already getting lots of respect for who he was and what he had achieved, and even today´s tough guys such as Dr.Dre tried to be like Prince and emulated his outfits and sexual and romantic lyrics.

We even had a thread about this not too long ago. With Dre wearing Prince-like outfits.

.

I´m a bit proud to have been there since the very early days of Rap and into Prince since 1984 and, looking back, there wasn´t really such a big divide. As a matter of fact, I lost a bit of interest in Prince´s music after he had become so huge in the mainstream pop music landscape but in hindsight, I perfectly understand why he´d distance himself from most rappers because, in hindsight, even I find most of the early Rap stuff very amateurish and immature. But on the other hand you also had highly creative groups that would create their own beats and melodies and write some deep lyrics.

Many rappers were big Prince fans and still are, for example Ice-T. I have this interview with Ice-T in his prime, must be from either 1987 or 1988, where Ice-T already talks about Prince having problems with WB and that the music biz is like pimping or prostitution, and that Prince is WB´s biggest bitch. But he does not come across as mean toward Prince.

-

Philly rapper SchoollyD dissed Prince pretty hard in the intro to his song "I Don´t Like RockNRoll" and also in interviews. But when Prince died he posted the album cover of Dirty Mind on his Facebook page and said that Prince was a major influence in his life.

Which surprised me a bit because I remembered that diss so I asked him why he had changed his mind. To which Schooly D replied that Prince would not respect rappers and diss them early on, but he changed his stance later, and Scholly D told me that he even performed at Prince´s clubs three times and that they got along very well. Just goes to show you how people and things change over the years.

-

But, all in all, I totally agree with your post, and I find a bit of consolation in the fact that Prince inspired so many people from all walks of life, all races, religions, and locations in the world, and that so many rappers looked up to him and celebrated and respected him while he was still among us. The names you mentioned are good examples. I´m a bit surprised though that I haven´t seen any reaction from Common but that´s ok. I remember they got along very well around 1999-2001 and I don´t expect everyone to post about Prince´s death but it was nice to see Snoop Dogg pay respect the other day with that touching article that he wrote on Prince ( I made a thread about it). I mean, he also dissed him a couple of times because Prince would not let him sample his music but it´s nice to still see him pay respect to Prince.

Thinking of Snoop being influenced the first thing I think of was that Sensual Seduction video lol

I was thinking about Chuck D. as later into the 90's because I feel like he wasn't wrking with them until then. Because wasn't Chuck involved in 1999 the New Master? And Doug E. was referenced in Musicology, and Prince was on Common's Electric Circus and that wasn't until 2002.

Being an 80's baby, hip hop was fully entrenched in my childhood. My mom loved Run-DMC and LL Cool J, and introduced me to ATCQ as a child(along with the other genres/musicians she loved, including Prince) and the rest was history.

TrivialPursuit said:

Askani said:

MattyJam said: Ugh. Let's just be glad he's gone and not jinx it.

[Edited 5/26/16 13:35pm]

Precisely.

NorthC said:

Right. Great. Now if anyone can make a Darth Vader voice/ fundamentalist bullshit lyrics-free version of The Rainbow Children, then maybe that album would be quite enjoyable too.

wasnt one song with his regular played on the ahdio show??

eyewishuheaven said:

NorthC said:

Sorry guys, but this is really pissing me off. If Prince put Tony M or spoken parts on an album then that's how he wanted it to sound. Period. You don't mess with an artists' vision like that, as if you are a better judge of how Prince's music should sound than the man himself. If you don't like something, don't listen to it. It's as simple as that.

Hi, Mr. Lucas.

Tony shot first.

I love this album, but I never liked Tony nor Kirsty in it, and thought it was too long in certain spots. So I've made my own version called "The Love Symbol Album [Unrapped]". It took me about 5 hours, but I like the end results, and the edits are pretty clean.

Tony and Kirsty are absent from all the songs. Here are any additional changes:

My Name is Prince 2:39 - removed repetitions

Sexy MF 2:57 - removed lame-o Tommy B & Levi solos

Love to the 9's 3:50 - removed questionaire

The Max 3:09 - edited for flow

Blue Light 4:12 - tightened up ending a bit

Damn U 4:02 - removed Kirsty ending

Arrogance 1:25 - re-segued intro and outro

The Flow 1:37 - removed rap

The Sacrifice of Victor 4:41 - Removed intro segue; removed repetitions

No changes needed:

Morning Papers

I Wanna Melt with U

Sweet Baby

The Continental

7

And God Created Woman

3 Chains of Gold - although, i thought about moving the blazing guitar solo to the front, ala When Doves Cry, but that would've made it a remix...lol

injuredpinky said:

I love this album, but I never liked Tony nor Kirsty in it, and thought it was too long in certain spots. So I've made my own version called "The Love Symbol Album [Unrapped]". It took me about 5 hours, but I like the end results, and the edits are pretty clean.

Tony and Kirsty are absent from all the songs. Here are any additional changes:

My Name is Prince 2:39 - removed repetitions

Sexy MF 2:57 - removed lame-o Tommy B & Levi solos

Love to the 9's 3:50 - removed questionaire

The Max 3:09 - edited for flow

Blue Light 4:12 - tightened up ending a bit

Damn U 4:02 - removed Kirsty ending

Arrogance 1:25 - re-segued intro and outro

The Flow 1:37 - removed rap

The Sacrifice of Victor 4:41 - Removed intro segue; removed repetitions

No changes needed:

Morning Papers

I Wanna Melt with U

Sweet Baby

The Continental

7

And God Created Woman

3 Chains of Gold - although, i thought about moving the blazing guitar solo to the front, ala When Doves Cry, but that would've made it a remix...lol

Blasphemy! Levi's solo on Sexy MF is awesome.

MattyJam said:

Blasphemy! Levi's solo on Sexy MF is awesome.

Did you ever hear that dude ernestsewell's edits, though? How were they?

NorthC said:

You know, that's exactly what I was talking about: people butchering an album.like that. If you can remove the rap, you can also remove the guitar solo. Or the saxopone solo. What you end up with is a mess. But, I've made my point, no need to repeat myself. If you want to listen to your albums slashed an burned, go ahead.

NorthC said:

NorthC said:

You know, that's exactly what I was talking about: people butchering an album.like that. If you can remove the rap, you can also remove the guitar solo. Or the saxopone solo. What you end up with is a mess. But, I've made my point, no need to repeat myself. If you want to listen to your albums slashed an burned, go ahead.

Nobody has a problem with any guitar solo or sax solo ever on a Prince related track.

Everyone has a problem with Tony. Scrappy. Doug E Fresh on NPS. Larry's voice on anything.

suomynona said:

NorthC said:

You know, that's exactly what I was talking about: people butchering an album.like that. If you can remove the rap, you can also remove the guitar solo. Or the saxopone solo. What you end up with is a mess. But, I've made my point, no need to repeat myself. If you want to listen to your albums slashed an burned, go ahead.

Nobody has a problem with any guitar solo or sax solo ever on a Prince related track.

Everyone has a problem with Tony. Scrappy. Doug E Fresh on NPS. Larry's voice on anything.

Him nixed from "Everyday Is A Winding Road" is nice.

I don't think I could ever "remove" things from an album.I want to hear the artists' vision and listen to the album the way it was intended to sound.

TrivialPursuit said:

suomynona said:

Nobody has a problem with any guitar solo or sax solo ever on a Prince related track.

Everyone has a problem with Tony. Scrappy. Doug E Fresh on NPS. Larry's voice on anything.

Him nixed from "Everyday Is A Winding Road" is nice.

So I've heard. Oh wait... no I haven't

SoulAlive said:

SoulAlive said:

I don't think I could ever "remove" things from an album.I want to hear the artists' vision and listen to the album the way it was intended to sound.

So do I. Just before Tony M's vocals were mistakenly added.

We're talking about 12 songs here people. 13 if you include Jughead, which is just a turd no matter what you attempt to do.

I don't recall -- even though I saw 4 of those shows in person -- did Tony M come out and rap when Prince played "The Max" at all of those 3rdEyeGirl shows? Or did he edit that shit out.

suomynona said:

SoulAlive said:

I don't think I could ever "remove" things from an album.I want to hear the artists' vision and listen to the album the way it was intended to sound.

So do I. Just before Tony M's vocals were mistakenly added.

We're talking about 12 songs here people. 13 if you include Jughead, which is just a turd no matter what you attempt to do.

I don't recall -- even though I saw 4 of those shows in person -- did Tony M come out and rap when Prince played "The Max" at all of those 3rdEyeGirl shows? Or did he edit that shit out.

If Tony was edited out of "Jughead", it'd be shorter than track 4 on Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic.

I'm not a rap fan at all but I actually LIKE Tony M.'s rapping on the Diamonds and Pearls album and Love Symbol album... It really captures the "New Jack Swing/rap" style that was so prevalent in the late 80's/early 90's. I may be in the minority but I really like what Tony M. adds to those albums.

[Edited 5/27/16 9:12am]

[Edited 5/27/16 9:12am]

homesquid said:

injuredpinky said:

I love this album, but I never liked Tony nor Kirsty in it, and thought it was too long in certain spots. So I've made my own version called "The Love Symbol Album [Unrapped]". It took me about 5 hours, but I like the end results, and the edits are pretty clean.

Tony and Kirsty are absent from all the songs. Here are any additional changes:

My Name is Prince 2:39 - removed repetitions

Sexy MF 2:57 - removed lame-o Tommy B & Levi solos

Love to the 9's 3:50 - removed questionaire

The Max 3:09 - edited for flow

Blue Light 4:12 - tightened up ending a bit

Damn U 4:02 - removed Kirsty ending

Arrogance 1:25 - re-segued intro and outro

The Flow 1:37 - removed rap

The Sacrifice of Victor 4:41 - Removed intro segue; removed repetitions

No changes needed:

Morning Papers

I Wanna Melt with U

Sweet Baby

The Continental

7

And God Created Woman

3 Chains of Gold - although, i thought about moving the blazing guitar solo to the front, ala When Doves Cry, but that would've made it a remix...lol

Lovesymbol could have been perfect!

I can't imagine the D+P and Symbol albums without Tony M's input. If anyone spends hours editing and removing them must be a hater of Tony M or is unemployed and living off on food stamps like a crazed home computer audio editor.

[Edited 5/27/16 14:44pm]

This is cool. I decided to do the same thing with Larry Graham's GS2000 album. I always felt the 12 tracks didn't flow well. So I'm made a new version that goes like this.

1. Intro

2. Free (featuring Prince)

3. Outro.

Sounds much better now.

SquirrelMeat said:

This is cool. I decided to do the same thing with Larry Graham's GS2000 album. I always felt the 12 tracks didn't flow well. So I'm made a new version that goes like this.

1. Intro

2. Free (featuring Prince)

3. Outro.

Sounds much better now.

SquirrelMeat said:

This is cool. I decided to do the same thing with Larry Graham's GS2000 album. I always felt the 12 tracks didn't flow well. So I'm made a new version that goes like this.

1. Intro

2. Free (featuring Prince)

3. Outro.

Sounds much better now.

-

-

Don´t Let´em Change You was quite ok though.

-

'Something Funky this House Comes' on D&P Beginnings makes me smile. Might be nostalgia or hindsight, It's mainly for Rosie though, when she comes in..whoa!

I've never really hated Tony M. He only really had one style, and did often sound like a machine gun... but some of his lyrics are amusingly tongue twisting.

I'd be interested in hearing a version of the album if Tony M was faded out. IIRC Ernests edits didn't sound too bad, they were pretty clean. But ultimately you're still hacking away at an album... just don't listen to it would seem to be the answer.

Tony M Said:

Weeeeell hello, MC T on a mello, Swing low to the tempo As I flow

on a roll Here we go, willing and able Start the show right
With that type of hype
Lay my cards on the table tonight
Don't take me light
My flow hits you just like a lead pipe
While I'm clockin'
You just say 'fess About the boots I'm knockin'

ETC

I'd go so far as to say that is one of my "favorite" Tony M raps... and not just if someone put a gun-mic to my head and forced me to list my favorite Tony M raps. I mean by choice.