paulludvig said:

funksterr said:

Nah.. that's not the quote I was thinking of. Actually you are quoting an interview from 2014, but tbh, I feel like you have made my point for me and we actually agree mostly. I say it 90/10 Josh and you say it 70/30 Josh. Not a big difference, imo. The point remains the same.... Josh is the primary artist on a Prince album which is indefensible.

Don't even get me started on Prince doing "engineering'. GEEZ, is that a first, btw?

Prince is the engineer now, huh, lol. I think that's just another way to credit him since it's his album, his deal, his building. WTF can he be engineering on a freaking MacBook anyway??? I think his engineer credit is nothing more than him setting up his own guitar rig. Also, I said I believe Joshua would not lie about his involvement on the album. And Josh (Prince too!) has made it clear that HNR is his baby.

No, he's not.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/08/31/prince-interview-hitnrun

Doesn't matter either way.

funksterr said:

Mindflux said:

He is paying attention and you are seriously exaggarating what has been said. The actual quote is "When it comes to the mixing part it's pretty stressful because, you know, he (Prince) hears in Wi-Fi!" Suggesting much larger involvement than "barely". Josh continues, "A lot of times, I learn from being around him and I'm flattered when I give him a track and he won't even add any instruments but just WRITE A SONG TO IT". So, not every track doesn't have Prince playing an instrument and you can infer from that comment that Josh is essentially giving Prince a groove, an idea, and then Prince write the music.

So, we have Prince SOMETIMES not adding any instrumentation, writing the music and lyrics himself, singing most of the vocals, constantly sneaking in to the studio to check on what Joshua is doing and also being heavily involved in the mixing and engineering (which it also says on the cd liner notes). You are diminishing Prince's involvement to pursue your own nonsensical agenda.

And, furthermore, despite not having any quotes to hand, I can pretty much guarantee there are plenty of threads where you are disbelieving something Prince has said!

Nah.. that's not the quote I was thinking of. Actually you are quoting an interview from 2014, but tbh, I feel like you have made my point for me and we actually agree mostly. I say it 90/10 Josh and you say it 70/30 Josh. Not a big difference, imo. The point remains the same.... Josh is the primary artist on a Prince album which is indefensible.

Don't even get me started on Prince doing "engineering'. GEEZ, is that a first, btw?

Prince is the engineer now, huh, lol. I think that's just another way to credit him since it's his album, his deal, his building. WTF can he be engineering on a freaking MacBook anyway??? I think his engineer credit is nothing more than him setting up his own guitar rig. Also, I said I believe Joshua would not lie about his involvement on the album. And Josh (Prince too!) has made it clear that HNR is his baby.

If it wasn't the quote, feel free to link to the quote you were referencing! My guess is you won't, because you will have read something and then twisted it in your own mind to suit yourself. And, by the way, if it wasn't clear, I DON'T agree with you, no matter how much you try and spin it!

Right, here we go - prepare to have your mind blown! It amazed me just how much you will assert without any evidence or checking out the facts first, which lends less and less credence to anything you write. So, here it is - you said, "Dont even get me started on Prince doing "engineering". GEEZ, is that a first, btw?"

You're such a numpty! NO, it isn't, not be a long-shot. Want to know where his first, OF MANY, engineering credits appear? Around The World in a Day! 1985. It says, on the liner notes, "Engineered by Susan Rogers, PRINCE, David Leanoard, Peggy Mac & David Tickle. " It then also says, "Mixed by PRINCE - assisted by Susan Rogers". Uhm, and I don't think they had Macbooks back then, did they? In fact, digital was only just coming in to vision then, so this was all analogue, tapes and "proper" mixing and recording. You should only be so shocked at your own ignorance, rather than Prince's proven musical abilities.

Need me to go on?

SOTT - "Engineered by Susan Rogers, Coke Johnson & Prince"

Lovesexy - "Recorded and mixed by Joe Blaney, Eddie Miller and Prince"

....I think that's point proven?

[Edited 9/25/15 5:26am]

[Edited 9/25/15 5:28am]

Mindflux said:

If it wasn't the quote, feel free to link to the quote you were referencing! My guess is you won't, because you will have read something and then twisted it in your own mind to suit yourself. And, by the way, if it wasn't clear, I DON'T agree with you, no matter how much you try and spin it!

Right, here we go - prepare to have your mind blown! It amazed me just how much you will assert without any evidence or checking out the facts first, which lends less and less credence to anything you write. So, here it is - you said, "Dont even get me started on Prince doing "engineering". GEEZ, is that a first, btw?"

You're such a numpty! NO, it isn't, not be a long-shot. Want to know where his first, OF MANY, engineering credits appear? Around The World in a Day! 1985. It says, on the liner notes, "Engineered by Susan Rogers, PRINCE, David Leanoard, Peggy Mac & David Tickle. " It then also says, "Mixed by PRINCE - assisted by Susan Rogers". Uhm, and I don't think they had Macbooks back then, did they? In fact, digital was only just coming in to vision then, so this was all analogue, tapes and "proper" mixing and recording. You should only be so shocked at your own ignorance, rather than Prince's proven musical abilities.

Need me to go on?

SOTT - "Engineered by Susan Rogers, Coke Johnson & Prince"

Lovesexy - "Recorded and mixed by Joe Blaney, Eddie Miller and Prince"

....I think that's point proven?

[Edited 9/25/15 5:26am]

[Edited 9/25/15 5:28am]

I never bother saving links to articles I read, so I can't help you with links to anything. To me the quotes from Josh, wether it's 2014 or 2015, is immaterial to the core of what we both said: Josh is doing the most and Prince is, at best, checking in and adding a bit here or there. I'm not interested in Josh as a musician, artist, performer, or anything else, so I don't like hearing him playing a large role in the new music.

As for Prince receivng engineering credit, who cares? I believe Susan Rogers once mentioned that he set up his own mic and recorded vocals lying on his back or something. The point is Prince is not a qualified sound enginner, so when you see getting credit as an engineer, well, it's kind of like when Beyonce got credit as a songwriter: take it with a grain of salt.

funksterr said:

Mindflux said:

If it wasn't the quote, feel free to link to the quote you were referencing! My guess is you won't, because you will have read something and then twisted it in your own mind to suit yourself. And, by the way, if it wasn't clear, I DON'T agree with you, no matter how much you try and spin it!

Right, here we go - prepare to have your mind blown! It amazed me just how much you will assert without any evidence or checking out the facts first, which lends less and less credence to anything you write. So, here it is - you said, "Dont even get me started on Prince doing "engineering". GEEZ, is that a first, btw?"

You're such a numpty! NO, it isn't, not be a long-shot. Want to know where his first, OF MANY, engineering credits appear? Around The World in a Day! 1985. It says, on the liner notes, "Engineered by Susan Rogers, PRINCE, David Leanoard, Peggy Mac & David Tickle. " It then also says, "Mixed by PRINCE - assisted by Susan Rogers". Uhm, and I don't think they had Macbooks back then, did they? In fact, digital was only just coming in to vision then, so this was all analogue, tapes and "proper" mixing and recording. You should only be so shocked at your own ignorance, rather than Prince's proven musical abilities.

Need me to go on?

SOTT - "Engineered by Susan Rogers, Coke Johnson & Prince"

Lovesexy - "Recorded and mixed by Joe Blaney, Eddie Miller and Prince"

....I think that's point proven?

[Edited 9/25/15 5:26am]

[Edited 9/25/15 5:28am]

I never bother saving links to articles I read, so I can't help you with links to anything. To me the quotes from Josh, wether it's 2014 or 2015, is immaterial to the core of what we both said: Josh is doing the most and Prince is, at best, checking in and adding a bit here or there. I'm not interested in Josh as a musician, artist, performer, or anything else, so I don't like hearing him playing a large role in the new music.

As for Prince receivng engineering credit, who cares? I believe Susan Rogers once mentioned that he set up his own mic and recorded vocals lying on his back or something. The point is Prince is not a qualified sound enginner, so when you see getting credit as an engineer, well, it's kind of like when Beyonce got credit as a songwriter: take it with a grain of salt.

And you claim you're not a troll. The alternative is that you're mindnumbingly pretentious.

Aerogram said:

Aerogram said:

funksterr said:

I never bother saving links to articles I read, so I can't help you with links to anything. To me the quotes from Josh, wether it's 2014 or 2015, is immaterial to the core of what we both said: Josh is doing the most and Prince is, at best, checking in and adding a bit here or there. I'm not interested in Josh as a musician, artist, performer, or anything else, so I don't like hearing him playing a large role in the new music.

As for Prince receivng engineering credit, who cares? I believe Susan Rogers once mentioned that he set up his own mic and recorded vocals lying on his back or something. The point is Prince is not a qualified sound enginner, so when you see getting credit as an engineer, well, it's kind of like when Beyonce got credit as a songwriter: take it with a grain of salt.

And you claim you're not a troll. The alternative is that you're mindnumbingly pretentious.

Whatever you think of me, tbh, i don't care. By definition a troll posts inflammatory off-topic personal attacks against people they disagree with. And... when I read your last several off-topic personal attacks against me, I think it's clear which of us is engaged in honest discussion and which of us is the troll.

Mindflux said:

Aerogram said:

And you claim you're not a troll. The alternative is that you're mindnumbingly pretentious.

And not the slightest shred of humility to admit when he's wrong. Must be a lonely universe he's in.

And that's your real problem here. You want me to be wrong when I said that Josh was 90% of HNR. You couldn't prove that. SO when I brought up Prince receiving an engineering credit, which is ludicrous for sure, given that these tracks are clearly produced in a laptop, you thought this was a 'gotcha moment' and you could say I'm wrong about that instead. But all I did was ask the question if he'd ever received an engineering credit. I didn't say he never had. Maybe you misread or misunderstood, idk.

funksterr said:

Aerogram said:

And you claim you're not a troll. The alternative is that you're mindnumbingly pretentious.

Whatever you think of me, tbh, i don't care. By definition a troll posts inflammatory off-topic personal attacks against people they disagree with. And... when I read your last several off-topic personal attacks against me, I think it's clear which of us is engaged in honest discussion and which of us is the troll.

People left and right are calling you a -- get a clue.

Aerogram said:

funksterr said:

Whatever you think of me, tbh, i don't care. By definition a troll posts inflammatory off-topic personal attacks against people they disagree with. And... when I read your last several off-topic personal attacks against me, I think it's clear which of us is engaged in honest discussion and which of us is the troll.

People left and right are calling you a -- get a clue.

Oh wait... Someone called me something???? Like OMG!! I should COMPLETELY change my worldview to think like everybody else then.

Honestly, if you can't tell that Prince has a lot more to do with this album then the credits say (kind of like how in the past he has given credit to people just to let them get ahead in the music biz), then I think you haven't listened enough to Prince to pick up on his patterns of arrangment and song structure and theatrics. Regardless of instrument voice.

Yes, we are all fucked. Get used to it.

ufoclub said:

Honestly, if you can't tell that Prince has a lot more to do with this album then the credits say (kind of like how in the past he has given credit to people just to let them get ahead in the music biz), then I think you haven't listened enough to Prince to pick up on his patterns of arrangment and song structure and theatrics. Regardless of instrument voice.

Much of Josh's production is really little more than audio CGI. It's paint by numbers to an extent, based on tracks Prince recorded in the past, but now it's mangled, garbled, reversed, pitch-shifted, time-shifted, and whatever else he could come up with. The final result of what we actually hear is still majority Josh. Credit's ain't lying this time.

ufoclub said:

Honestly, if you can't tell that Prince has a lot more to do with this album then the credits say (kind of like how in the past he has given credit to people just to let them get ahead in the music biz), then I think you haven't listened enough to Prince to pick up on his patterns of arrangment and song structure and theatrics. Regardless of instrument voice.

When you run across people who cannot tell the difference between fact and opinion and never post a link to any sources for their fiction then you can't expect them to understand patterns of arrangement and song structures.

babynoz said:

ufoclub said:

Honestly, if you can't tell that Prince has a lot more to do with this album then the credits say (kind of like how in the past he has given credit to people just to let them get ahead in the music biz), then I think you haven't listened enough to Prince to pick up on his patterns of arrangment and song structure and theatrics. Regardless of instrument voice.

When you run across people who cannot tell the difference between fact and opinion and never post a link to any sources for their fiction then you can't expect them to understand patterns of arrangement and song structures.

I give this place knowledge and in return all I get is hate.

Since Prince is Jay-Z's btch now:
I blew breath in you, niqqas/ I gave light to the game/ It's only fair/ I've got the right to be king.

In 'Ain't About 2 Stop', there's a synth and percussion part that sounds exactly like Prince. There are a couple of other spots where I swear I hear Prince on keys, but it's like a sprinkle here and there.

.

The Purple Rain-like descending piano line in the remix of 'This Could B Us' sure sounds like P to me as well.

.

Also, the Donna Grantis guitar solo in 'Ain't About 2 Stop' sounds like she and Prince are playing two parts together in harmony, similarly to the way they do that live.

.

There have been plenty of examples in the past where Prince gives credit to cats who didn't play/record... Lovesexy, Parade, Romance 1600, etc.

funksterr said:

babynoz said:

When you run across people who cannot tell the difference between fact and opinion and never post a link to any sources for their fiction then you can't expect them to understand patterns of arrangement and song structures.

I give this place knowledge and in return all I get is hate.

Since Prince is Jay-Z's btch now:
I blew breath in you, niqqas/ I gave light to the game/ It's only fair/ I've got the right to be king.

Your opinion doesn't carry any weight because you seldom tell the truth.


Either post links to your sources or save it for your 9th grade classmates. Grown folks are talking.

babynoz said:

Giovanni777 said:

The Purple Rain-like descending piano line in the remix of 'This Could B Us' sure sounds like P to me as well.

That piano line sounds specifically like amateur garbage to me, so i assume it's Josh.

I'm with funksterr on this. It feels like there is very little Prince on Hit N Run.

Mindflux said:

There are fee artists who have been as prolific as Prince and few to have such a long career. Even less take the sort of chances he still does after such a long time and his capacity for reinvention is almost peerless - so excuse me if your assertions that he lacks confidence and is lazy are just utterly laughable!

I dunno man, to me he sounds very lazy. That's the impression I get listening to the music, seeing things like the live show setlists, and reading the interviews. If you hear, see and read the same things I do and instead come to the conclusion that Prince is the bravest, most prolific guy around, I can't argue with that. We're obviously interpreting things differently. Of course I think my interpretation is correct, but I'm not going to convince you of that. SHRUG.

Mindflux said:

funksterr said:

Then you aren't paying attention. We've heard 'Prince doesn't touch a single instrument', 'Prince only plays guitars and nothing else on an entire Prince album', 'Prince listens to the finished tracks and usually doesn't change anything', 'Who would have thought I'd let a kid produce me', 'Prince sneaks in the studio to check on my progress and I don't know he's there' on and on.

Prince isn't working on the music. It's all Josh, with Prince adding like 10 percent or so at the end.

He is paying attention and you are seriously exaggarating what has been said. The actual quote is "When it comes to the mixing part it's pretty stressful because, you know, he (Prince) hears in Wi-Fi!" Suggesting much larger involvement than "barely". Josh continues, "A lot of times, I learn from being around him and I'm flattered when I give him a track and he won't even add any instruments but just WRITE A SONG TO IT". So, not every track doesn't have Prince playing an instrument and you can infer from that comment that Josh is essentially giving Prince a groove, an idea, and then Prince write the music.

So, we have Prince SOMETIMES not adding any instrumentation, writing the music and lyrics himself, singing most of the vocals, constantly sneaking in to the studio to check on what Joshua is doing and also being heavily involved in the mixing and engineering (which it also says on the cd liner notes). You are diminishing Prince's involvement to pursue your own nonsensical agenda.

And, furthermore, despite not having any quotes to hand, I can pretty much guarantee there are plenty of threads where you are disbelieving something Prince has said!

This argument is insane. Both of you are saying that when prince/liner notes say something, you should believe them when they agree with you and disbelieve them otherwise.

And you say "you are diminishing Prince's involvement to pursue your own agenda", but to me, the rest of your post sounds like it exaggerates Prince's involvement for you to pursue YOUR agenda.

I don't even like the word 'agenda' here, implying you or funksterr are being dishonest with your opinions, or something. I think the impression you get about the level of prince's involvement is different from the impression funksterr (and I) get. That's it.

fusk said:

Mindflux said:

He is paying attention and you are seriously exaggarating what has been said. The actual quote is "When it comes to the mixing part it's pretty stressful because, you know, he (Prince) hears in Wi-Fi!" Suggesting much larger involvement than "barely". Josh continues, "A lot of times, I learn from being around him and I'm flattered when I give him a track and he won't even add any instruments but just WRITE A SONG TO IT". So, not every track doesn't have Prince playing an instrument and you can infer from that comment that Josh is essentially giving Prince a groove, an idea, and then Prince write the music.

So, we have Prince SOMETIMES not adding any instrumentation, writing the music and lyrics himself, singing most of the vocals, constantly sneaking in to the studio to check on what Joshua is doing and also being heavily involved in the mixing and engineering (which it also says on the cd liner notes). You are diminishing Prince's involvement to pursue your own nonsensical agenda.

And, furthermore, despite not having any quotes to hand, I can pretty much guarantee there are plenty of threads where you are disbelieving something Prince has said!

This argument is insane. Both of you are saying that when prince/liner notes say something, you should believe them when they agree with you and disbelieve them otherwise.

And you say "you are diminishing Prince's involvement to pursue your own agenda", but to me, the rest of your post sounds like it exaggerates Prince's involvement for you to pursue YOUR agenda.

I don't even like the word 'agenda' here, implying you or funksterr are being dishonest with your opinions, or something. I think the impression you get about the level of prince's involvement is different from the impression funksterr (and I) get. That's it.

You must have skimmed through the thread. I haven't said I disagree with any liner notes - in fact, I have quoted them.

What I disagreed with was funksterr's interpretation of quotes that he can't produce from articles he claims to have read that says Prince was "barely involved" in the production of HnR. He claims it is 90% Josh (something he can't back up). I disagree. He claimes Prince cannot engineer. But he has been credited as engineer on most of his albums since 1985 and was taught how to engineer by Chris Moon. But funksterr doesn't want facts to get in the way of his argument. The argument is only insane by virtue of the fact that funksterr cannot back up any of their claims with evidence, whilst I at least tried to substantiate mine.

And, yes - I maintain funksterr has an agenda. It is present on every thread he "contributes" to. Perhaps you should pay more attention?

As for Prince's involvement - if you think writing the music, singing most of the vocals, playing all the bass and guitar, co-producing and engineering that records constitutes only 10% involvement in the album, then you are, in my opinion, somewhat misguided, have no real clue about music-making and are clearly well-suited to cosy on up to funksterr!

[Edited 9/28/15 10:12am]

fusk said:

Mindflux said:

There are fee artists who have been as prolific as Prince and few to have such a long career. Even less take the sort of chances he still does after such a long time and his capacity for reinvention is almost peerless - so excuse me if your assertions that he lacks confidence and is lazy are just utterly laughable!

I dunno man, to me he sounds very lazy. That's the impression I get listening to the music, seeing things like the live show setlists, and reading the interviews. If you hear, see and read the same things I do and instead come to the conclusion that Prince is the bravest, most prolific guy around, I can't argue with that. We're obviously interpreting things differently. Of course I think my interpretation is correct, but I'm not going to convince you of that. SHRUG.

I said there are few artists as prolific as Prince. If you interpret 38 albums in 37 years as not prolific, that's your business.

Frank Zappa was more prolific - 119 albums (albeit 38 posthumously). Johnny Cash weighs in at 167 albums. But then, you have to be careful because 104 of them are complilations! But how many others can you name? As a percentage of artists who release albums, it will be the tiniest fraction - most don't even get to double-figures.

And, of course, if you can name another artist who 4 decades in to his career took such a stylistic change as Prince just has, please go for it. Because the few who do have a career as long, tend to stick to what they do and not take such a chance. Prince is known for his funk and pop - co-produced or not, HnR is significantly different to any other record in his career and, yes, is a brave step for such an established artist. You think differently. Not many people agree with you (certainly most of the reviews in the press applaud Prince for such a step-change).

[Edited 9/28/15 10:27am]

Mindflux said:

And, yes - I maintain funksterr has an agenda. It is present on every thread he "contributes" to. Perhaps you should pay more attention?

hah, i'll get right on that

Mindflux said:

As for Prince's involvement - if you think writing the music, singing most of the vocals, playing all the bass and guitar, co-producing and engineering that records constitutes only 10% involvement in the album, then you are, in my opinion, somewhat misguided, have no real clue about music-making and are clearly well-suited to cosy on up to funksterr!

[Edited 9/28/15 10:12am]

this illustrates my point exactly. You argue that funksterr downplays prince's involvement, while to me, what you've written here exaggerates prince's involvement and completely omits the heavy lifting Josh and others have been doing.

You can quote liner notes and interviews, but none of that strikes me as being convincing. Why am I not convinced? Because I've heard songs like TBCU Remix, I've decided that the song is only Josh playing around with old Prince tracks, and the interviews I've read seem to support that idea. The problem is that interviews and liner notes are not specific enough to figure out what's actually happening when these songs are put together. I'm inclined to believe one thing and you're inclined to believe another. That's it.

Also, saying 'if you think writing the music, [...] then you have no clue about music making' is obvious bullshit. It's very condescending and also a fallacy (straw man argument). Of course I think that if someone does all those things, then that someone is more than 10% involved in making the album. I'm arguing that it's not clear that Prince is doing all those things.

Mindflux said:

fusk said:

I dunno man, to me he sounds very lazy. That's the impression I get listening to the music, seeing things like the live show setlists, and reading the interviews. If you hear, see and read the same things I do and instead come to the conclusion that Prince is the bravest, most prolific guy around, I can't argue with that. We're obviously interpreting things differently. Of course I think my interpretation is correct, but I'm not going to convince you of that. SHRUG.

I said there are few artists as prolific as Prince. If you interpret 38 albums in 37 years as not prolific, that's your business.

Frank Zappa was more prolific - 119 albums (albeit 38 posthumously). Johnny Cash weighs in at 167 albums. But then, you have to be careful because 104 of them are complilations! But how many others can you name? As a percentage of artists who release albums, it will be the tiniest fraction - most don't even get to double-figures.

And, of course, if you can name another artist who 4 decades in to his career took such a stylistic change as Prince just has, please go for it. Because the few who do have a career as long, tend to stick to what they do and not take such a chance. Prince is known for his funk and pop - co-produced or not, HnR is significantly different to any other record in his career and, yes, is a brave step for such an established artist. You think differently. Not many people agree with you (certainly most of the reviews in the press applaud Prince for such a step-change).

[Edited 9/28/15 10:27am]

Right, I should have clarified - I'm only talking about recent years. I agree prince WAS brave, creative, and prolific, but now I don't think he is. What I should have said above is, "If you're impressed by what he's doing recently, that's fine, but it doesn't impress me. If it impresses 90% of people, that's fine. Still doesn't impress me."

The game, "name another artist who does what prince does" is so subjective it's not worth playing. There are tons of acts who can reasonably claim to have switched up their style many times over the years (I dunno, beck, the beatles, the beach boys, the beastie boys... and that's just from the category "acts starting with the letter B"), so it's just a matter of comparing how drastic the changes are. That kind of comparison is just way too subjective.

[Edited 9/28/15 12:30pm]

It's like the difference between frequencies you can hear in flac music and the frequencies you can't hear because....... wait for it........ they're not there!

Can we all just agree to disagree and not resort to personal attacks. Btw how is everyone?

FUNKYNESS said:

funkomatic said:

FUNKYNESS said:

It seems Prince is a sideman on his own album

This is what I actually think about his 80s albums. Why is it that his albums of the last 27 years pale in comparison to his output in the 80s? Could it be that he was just a sideman on his most successful albums? Are they like they are because of the people surrounding him (Wendy & Lisa, Eric Leeds, Clare Fisher etc.) and less because of Prince himself?

Because in the 80's he was at his peak.

Guitarhero said: