1contessa said:

S3V3N said:

OR you could look at it as these are not / never were 'friendships'. It's all strictly business, and these days the former protogee acts bring nothing marketable to the table. They served their purpose back in the day... additional revenue streams for Prince's studio work.

How many of your former coworkers do you consider 'friends'?

You can't tell me that some of the folks that Prince worked with for many years were just business relationships. Come on, he had to be friends with many of them, especially after working with them for years at a stretch. Also, if you grew up with someone, a part of the same school, neighborhood, etc, odds are you were considered a friend. I don't know, it just seems like a cold hearted person that just cuts others off completely, having nothing else to do with them, if once you were friends, co-workers, whatever.

Not too long ago, somebody asked Prince who his best friend was...he said "Andre." Really? Think about it...Prince HAS NO FRIENDS...it sounds harsh, but no matter who his friends are, he pushes them to the side for no reason or silly reasons. Sheila E? He met her in 1977 or so, and no they are off again.

I have at least 10 friendships of 25 years or more. I have done business with some, and still get along with all of them. Prince is not NORMAL...he NEVER will be.

I'd love for him to get the old bands back together, but I never expect it to happen.

Sooner or later, the 3rd Eye Girl band will be boring to him, and they will be brushed aside. Prince will likely get a band that is a mix of good musicians and probably somebody who can barely play at all will be involved. He will simply have the cheapest possible band money can buy..which will have mixed results...some will be able to play, and some won't.

Whoever that next band is, will be excited about playing with Prince, but once the excitement wears off, and paying bills means something, they will either leave, or be fired anyway, that's how Prince operates.

^ Makes me wonder what became of Kirky J. and him were like bros between 95 and 2001 and then he disappeared out of the purple world and we've never heard of him ever since (at least not in relation to ). I wonder what became of this friendhip, if they had a falling out or what

databank said:

^ Makes me wonder what became of Kirky J. and him were like bros between 95 and 2001 and then he disappeared out of the purple world and we've never heard of him ever since (at least not in relation to ). I wonder what became of this friendhip, if they had a falling out or what

Correction: Kirk never left Prince's organization. He still has a title at Paisley and was there last weekend for the NPJazz recording session.

hopefularranger said:

databank said:

^ Makes me wonder what became of Kirky J. and him were like bros between 95 and 2001 and then he disappeared out of the purple world and we've never heard of him ever since (at least not in relation to ). I wonder what became of this friendhip, if they had a falling out or what

Correction: Kirk never left Prince's organization. He still has a title at Paisley and was there last weekend for the NPJazz recording session.

My bad. Since he's not been on/in a single record/song/show since 2001 I thought he was outta the game. Glad 2 hear they're still friends

databank said:

My bad. Since he's not been on/in a single record/song/show since 2001 I thought he was outta the game. Glad 2 hear they're still friends

He's shown up on hand percussion at a few shows here and there over the years if I recall correctly.

stillwaiting said:

1contessa said:

You can't tell me that some of the folks that Prince worked with for many years were just business relationships. Come on, he had to be friends with many of them, especially after working with them for years at a stretch. Also, if you grew up with someone, a part of the same school, neighborhood, etc, odds are you were considered a friend. I don't know, it just seems like a cold hearted person that just cuts others off completely, having nothing else to do with them, if once you were friends, co-workers, whatever.

Not too long ago, somebody asked Prince who his best friend was...he said "Andre." Really? Think about it...Prince HAS NO FRIENDS...it sounds harsh, but no matter who his friends are, he pushes them to the side for no reason or silly reasons. Sheila E? He met her in 1977 or so, and no they are off again.

I have at least 10 friendships of 25 years or more. I have done business with some, and still get along with all of them. Prince is not NORMAL...he NEVER will be.

I'd love for him to get the old bands back together, but I never expect it to happen.

Sooner or later, the 3rd Eye Girl band will be boring to him, and they will be brushed aside. Prince will likely get a band that is a mix of good musicians and probably somebody who can barely play at all will be involved. He will simply have the cheapest possible band money can buy..which will have mixed results...some will be able to play, and some won't.

Whoever that next band is, will be excited about playing with Prince, but once the excitement wears off, and paying bills means something, they will either leave, or be fired anyway, that's how Prince operates.

But wasn't that always the case?

^ U people r NUTS. Save Andy and her guitar, which is the one and only example and the only reason y we r having this discussion, has always had top-notch musicians, so please stop taking ONE isolated example and trying to make it into a rule.

Eye doubt they are that close now. With Morris calling an ASSHOLE!! In a recent innerview..

^^But, the question is......why does Morris call an asshole?

I remember in 1990,I was feeling really good about Prince and The Time patching up their differences and becoming friends again.Pandemonium had just been released and I was eagerly waiting for the Graffiti Bridge movie.I was hoping that this would be the beginning of a renewed relationship,and that we would continue to get new Time albums every few years or so,with Prince onboard as producer of some of the tracks.We had seen how other Prince proteges and bands fell apart so quickly,but I thought the Time would be the exception.I'm not blaming anyone,just saying that it's sad that things didn't turn out the way I had hoped.

1contessa said:

^^But, the question is......why does Morris call an asshole?

^^Why the eyeroll KCOOLMUZIQ, I'm only asking a legit question? .........A person don't just call you an asshole for nothing right? Morris must have had a reason for calling Prince an asshole, I'm just wondering what the reason was.

Eye guess he still sulking about , not allowing "The 07V3N" to use their original name. Even though did approve him to use Morris Day & The Time 4 the counterfeit version of it. ...

^^Now was that hard KCOOLMUZIQ, so next time don't give me the eyeroll!.........Just kidding

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

Eye guess he still sulking about , not allowing "The 07V3N" to use their original name. Even though did approve him to use Morris Day & The Time 4 the counterfeit version of it. ...

IDK whether he "approved" it, let's remember he forbade Morris to release It's About Time as a Morris Day & The Time album. My guess is that he carelessely let it happen when Morris re4ed the band in 95/96, without paying much attention to it, and he came to wanting to protect his copyright in about 2004. Of note is the fact that Morris' last "collaboration" with (opening shows) came at about the same time forbade him to use the "Time" moniker for a new album.

databank said:

^ U people r NUTS. Save Andy and her guitar, which is the one and only example and the only reason y we r having this discussion, has always had top-notch musicians, so please stop taking ONE isolated example and trying to make it into a rule.

Hey, I respect 90% of your posts...even a bunch of them that I have a way different opinion on...but this is too much for me to ignore, so please accept my apology for my post. I'm trying so hard not to go Bart Van Halen on you...but....

1 Try to name ANY former Prince musician who has been picked up by another Major recording artist after leaving Prince. Anyone? There might be one or two...but I can't think of any. And if there are, it would be one of the top-notch musicans. Not A SINGLE ONE OF THE CLOWNS is touring with a major act...and that's a fact. Serious musicians who pay their side musicians the normal going rate would not even THINK of hiring one of Prince's former clowns. Now why Matt Fink hasn't had a great job is a mystery to me...

Hey, I respect 99% of your posts...even a bunch of them that I have a way different opinion on...but this is too much for me to ignore, so please accept my apology for my post. I'm trying so hard not to go Bart Van Halen on you...but....

Kat Dyson was an ok guitarist, but was she the best available guitar player on the market? Would she be in the top 500? Top 1000? She could play, but be in a legend's band?

Tony M? No comment needed. You already know.

Kirk Johnson was a dancer wearing Star Trek Next Generation uniforms with Tony M, and was learning drums on the side, and suddenly he's the drummer? Was Kirk Johnson ever considered among the top 100 drummers? Top 1000? He actually could play by the end of his time, but Prince's use of backing tapes hid his weakenesses to a point. Even at his best at the end, isn't it a little strange that Kirk didn't have offers coming in like crazy from all the bands looking for drummers??? And anyone who's ever been in a band, knows finding a good drummer is not easy.

Cora Coleman Dunham anyone??? She wasn't horrible, but Top Notch??? After she left Prince, it sure is strange that none of the best bands around didn't get in a bidding war to get her.

Josh Welton? I can't believe Elton John hasn't called him in to play the Triangle or whatever it is that he actually does.

Shelby? She's actually a great background singer, who is mishandled by Prince, instead of being just a great singer, she embarrassed herself nightly by screaming "Put Your Hands Up" at the top of her lungs over and over to the point of self-parody.

Morris Hayes? He was ok, not bad, but top notch? I'm a songwriter-musician, and I admit I'm terrible at piano, but it's easy to see that Morris Hayes compared to Matt Fink is not even CLOSE.

Rhonda Smith? Was she chosen because she was this master bassist? No. She was pretty, and she was pretty. She can play, but when Bill Wyman left the Rolling Stones, why didn't she get that job? When Bon Jovi lost their bass player, where was Rhonda? Where is she now?

Yes, he has played with many top-notch musicians over the years, but he's also had TONS OF CLOWNS in his bands. People who would NEVER come close to playing in a Top 40 act band if not for Prince and his policy of underpaying his help.

Even the great Wendy Melvoin was only average on guitar...but she played a major role in the studio, and would have been perfect as a co-writer, and minimal guitarist in the background...but when she was in the band, Prince had to play the important parts. She could not play like Dez, Miko, or even Mike Scott, who is very good, but not world-class.

Yes...the list of top-notich musicians in his bands is long...but so is the list of clowns..

Among the greats: Dez, Andre(bordeline but still great), Matt Fink, Sonny T, Michael Bland, Eric Leeds, Atlanta Bliss, Sheila E, Miko Weaver, Maceo Parker, Greg Boyer, John Blackwell, Chance Howard, and a few select more...

Among the very good, but not great: Wendy & Lisa(Both incredible in the studio, and very capable on their instrument but not top-notch), Mike Scott, Ida Neilsen(almost great), Tommy B, Renato Neto(great but his style limited his range), Brown Mark(almost great), Levi Seacer(almost great)

[Edited 8/11/14 23:02pm]

/\


Tommy Barbarella, Sonny T and Michael Bland are touring with Nick Jonas.

Mike Scott and John Blackwell play with Justin Timberlake.

stillwaiting said:

databank said:

^ U people r NUTS. Save Andy and her guitar, which is the one and only example and the only reason y we r having this discussion, has always had top-notch musicians, so please stop taking ONE isolated example and trying to make it into a rule.

Hey, I respect 90% of your posts...even a bunch of them that I have a way different opinion on...but this is too much for me to ignore, so please accept my apology for my post. I'm trying so hard not to go Bart Van Halen on you...but....

1 Try to name ANY former Prince musician who has been picked up by another Major recording artist after leaving Prince. Anyone? There might be one or two...but I can't think of any. And if there are, it would be one of the top-notch musicans. Not A SINGLE ONE OF THE CLOWNS is touring with a major act...and that's a fact. Serious musicians who pay their side musicians the normal going rate would not even THINK of hiring one of Prince's former clowns. Now why Matt Fink hasn't had a great job is a mystery to me...

Hey, I respect 99% of your posts...even a bunch of them that I have a way different opinion on...but this is too much for me to ignore, so please accept my apology for my post. I'm trying so hard not to go Bart Van Halen on you...but....

Kat Dyson was an ok guitarist, but was she the best available guitar player on the market? Would she be in the top 500? Top 1000? She could play, but be in a legend's band?

Tony M? No comment needed. You already know.

Kirk Johnson was a dancer wearing Star Trek Next Generation uniforms with Tony M, and was learning drums on the side, and suddenly he's the drummer? Was Kirk Johnson ever considered among the top 100 drummers? Top 1000? He actually could play by the end of his time, but Prince's use of backing tapes hid his weakenesses to a point. Even at his best at the end, isn't it a little strange that Kirk didn't have offers coming in like crazy from all the bands looking for drummers??? And anyone who's ever been in a band, knows finding a good drummer is not easy.

Cora Coleman Dunham anyone??? She wasn't horrible, but Top Notch??? After she left Prince, it sure is strange that none of the best bands around didn't get in a bidding war to get her.

Josh Welton? I can't believe Elton John hasn't called him in to play the Triangle or whatever it is that he actually does.

Shelby? She's actually a great background singer, who is mishandled by Prince, instead of being just a great singer, she embarrassed herself nightly by screaming "Put Your Hands Up" at the top of her lungs over and over to the point of self-parody.

Morris Hayes? He was ok, not bad, but top notch? I'm a songwriter-musician, and I admit I'm terrible at piano, but it's easy to see that Morris Hayes compared to Matt Fink is not even CLOSE.

Rhonda Smith? Was she chosen because she was this master bassist? No. She was pretty, and she was pretty. She can play, but when Bill Wyman left the Rolling Stones, why didn't she get that job? When Bon Jovi lost their bass player, where was Rhonda? Where is she now?

Yes, he has played with many top-notch musicians over the years, but he's also had TONS OF CLOWNS in his bands. People who would NEVER come close to playing in a Top 40 act band if not for Prince and his policy of underpaying his help.

Even the great Wendy Melvoin was only average on guitar...but she played a major role in the studio, and would have been perfect as a co-writer, and minimal guitarist in the background...but when she was in the band, Prince had to play the important parts. She could not play like Dez, Miko, or even Mike Scott, who is very good, but not world-class.

Yes...the list of top-notich musicians in his bands is long...but so is the list of clowns..

Among the greats: Dez, Andre(bordeline but still great), Matt Fink, Sonny T, Michael Bland, Eric Leeds, Atlanta Bliss, Sheila E, Miko Weaver, Maceo Parker, Greg Boyer, John Blackwell, Chance Howard, and a few select more...

Among the very good, but not great: Wendy & Lisa(Both incredible in the studio, and very capable on their instrument but not top-notch), Mike Scott, Ida Neilsen(almost great), Tommy B, Renato Neto(great but his style limited his range), Brown Mark(almost great), Levi Seacer(almost great)

[Edited 8/11/14 23:02pm]

Yeah we can disagree it's OK

.

Citing careers as an example as to how good a musician is, in such a competitive world, doesn't make a point 4 me. Actually check Kat Dyson's CV and u'll see how amazing a career she had and how big the names of the people she got to play with over the years, but then again Eric Leeds didn't get so many phonecalls and still, u agree that he's a killer (and he is!). How many awesome solo artists got burnt after a single solo album or 2 that didn't sell so well? Success, whether as a solo act or a session musician, isn't just a matter of talent in this world.

.

Tony M. and Josh Welton, OK, I wasn't even thinking of them, they don't really count I think, considering what it is they're doing in 's band in the first place. Wendy, OK, actually I think the line-up up until 1986 wasn't so strong from a technical POV, it wasn't their main strenght.

.

U're a musician so IDK where u're coming from nor what r your criterias to judge a musician's skills but as far as what I've seen/heard I fail to see how u can see the likes of Morris Hayes, Renato Neto or Rhonda Smith as anything but top-notch musicians: from a purely technical angle, they're just awesome. I can't demonstrate it I'm sorry, I'm not enough of a musician myself (used to be a singer but that was years ago), but I have good ears, at least I think I do. Save his solo on Head (which was always the same, note for note or almost) I never heard Fink playing anything close to some of the crazy muthafuckin' solos I've heard Morris play. There was a demonstration video of him with Teddy Riley and another folk on YT a few years back, he went into one of the baddest synth jam I've ever heard and Riley was looking at him like "wow! the MF is badass!". Shelbey, from a technical POV, has every skill a professional singer should have. Cora Dunham or Mike Scott didn't leave a strong impression on me but I don't remember thinking that they couldn't play well either, they just didn't have a strong personal touch the way some others did. Levi was an awesome jazz guitar player in the 91-93 line-up of the NPG, his solos were beautiful.

.

I mean seriously, how long r u gonna last in 's band if u gonna play the wrong note or if u ain't able to learn 100 songs in 3 months? I've spend my life hanging out with artists, many of them musicians, some good at what they were doing, but few of them would have lasted more than an hour in 's band. If u get past the fact that some have a personal touch or can do mind blowing solos, no matter the line-up it's always a tight band to play with, u can't just go and do shit, u have to be on top of your skills 24/7.

.

Just my opinion, 4 what it's worth, but I stand to it.

stillwaiting said:

I noted I'm a terrible musician. I have to play piano beacuse I write most of my songs on piano. I do not perform live, and would only do so under the perfect circumstance, and have no desire to do so. I know enough real musicians who play for a living who would work for Prince, but privately with me have said it probably wouldn't work out. I remember talking to Victor Wooten about it, and he was gushing with praise when I told him he would be perfect for Prince's band. He wouldn't say a negative thing about Prince, but think about it....Rhonda was about to leave the band again, and who did Prince get? Well, Rhonda again, but then Cora Coleman Dunham. Is she better than Wooten? VW may have a nice career of his own, but he would've done it in a heartbeat. Prince has continued to surround himself with suspect musicians. Ever been to Paisley Park to see the cars his employees drive? He simply doesn't pay. I've talked to many ex-Prince band members and heard horror stories of how checks were delayed, and how Denny's would sometimes be the gourmet meal after a show, not because it was all that was open, because it was all they could afford.

Serious world class musicians do not work for pennies on the dollar. When you factor in that Prince is pretty much a tyrant and treats people with little respect and almost no loyalty, it's easy to see why his choices are only people that suck up to him, or are trying to further their career. How'd that work out Tamar? Andy Allo? Bria? And the list goes on and on and on.

Ever wonder why Prince would use You Tube to find YOUNG musicians? He gave the BS about young people being where it is at, but he knows older musicans with better talent won't take his shit anymore.

Who in their right mind would have dissolved the SOTT/Lovesexy era band? Nobody.

How does this tie in to the subject? It's obvious he can work with Morris, but has no desire to give up any of the profits. He continues to burn bridges and squander opportunity. He is still the brightest star in music in my eyes, but there is a lot of baggage. Just having Tony M in his band with those Star Trek Next Generation uniforms is a black mark on his career, that sadly, he never can erase.

databank said:

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

Eye guess he still sulking about O( >, not allowing "The 07V3N" to use their original name. Even though O( > did approve him to use Morris Day & The Time 4 the counterfeit version of it. ...

IDK whether he "approved" it, let's remember he forbade Morris to release It's About Time as a Morris Day & The Time album. My guess is that he carelessely let it happen when Morris re4ed the band in 95/96, without paying much attention to it, and he came to wanting to protect his copyright in about 2004. Of note is the fact that Morris' last "collaboration" with O( > (opening shows) came at about the same time O( > forbade him to use the "Time" moniker for a new album.

letting Morris use the name as a touring band is way more better. Touring is Morris's bread & butter! Morris knows if says jump, he will say how high .

created his character, that he has 2 play the rest of his life! "Morris Day".

[Edited 8/12/14 8:17am]

@stillwaiting

If you were correct, I would concede it; if it were an opinion you offered, I would respect it.

I've been a working musician since I graduated college almost 16 years ago. I've met, worked, performed and, in some cases, become friendly with many of the "clowns" of whom you spoke earlier.

I never say things like this on message boards (especially this one) because when you get down to it, it ain't that serious. It's just show business.

You have NO idea what you're talking about, and the (mis)characterizations you made above have nothing whatsoever to do with the business of the professional musician.

I apologize for my candidness, but I felt compelled to employ it in this instance.

[Edited 8/12/14 8:16am]

Prince and Morris probably rekindled their friendship when they met at the plastic surgeon's.

..

ROLLING STONE (1990)

PRINCE TALKS

BY NEAL KARLEN

Originally, Graffiti Bridge was going to be a vehicle for the reborn Time, with Prince staying behind the camera. But Warner Bros. wouldn't go for it, so Prince wrote himself into a new movie. Later, visitors to Paisley Park saw a version of a script that was allegedly obtuse to the point of near gibberish. "That was just a real rough thirty-page treatment I wrote with Kim," Prince says. "Graffiti Bridge is an entirely different movie."

...

When Prince is amused, which is almost every time Morris Day comes on the screen, he slaps his hands, shakes his head and throws himself back in his seat. "I hope Morris steals this movie," he says, recalling the charge made after Purple Rain. "The man still thinks he can whup me!"

Prince pushes rewind, searching for a scene with the Time. Waiting, he reminisces about the old days, when he oversaw the band. For a tutorial on the proper onstage attitude, Prince remembers, he showed the Time videos of Muhammed Ali trouncing, and then taunting, the old champ Sonny Liston. "To this day," he says, "they're the only band I've ever been afraid of."

.

At first it seems strange for to hear Prince talking in such fond and nostalgic terms about Day and the band. Day left the Minneapolis fold right after Purple Rain, with some nasty words about the boss's supposedly dictatorial ways. Now, Prince says, "I honestly don't remember how we got it together again."

.

Day's old charge of overbossing, however, brings a quirkier and crosser memory. "That whole thing came from my early days, when I was working with a lot of people who weren't exactly designed for their jobs," Prince says. "I had to do a lot, and I had to have control, because a lot of them didn't know exactly what was needed."

.

The most often-told tale involves Prince firing the then-unknown Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis from the Time in 1982. Jam and Lewis, all parties now agree, left a Time tour on a day off to produce their first record for the SOS Band. A freak snowstorm in Atlanta grounded them for an extra day, and the two missed a gig. When Jam and Lewis returned, they were summarily fired. Jobless, the two missed Purple Rain, so they set up as producers and went scrounging for clients. In the years since, they've produced everyone from Janet Jackson to Herb Alpert, becoming the other superpower on the Minneapolis music scene.

.

"I'm playing the bad guy," says Prince, "but I didn't fire Jimmy and Terry. Morris asked me what I would do in his situation. Remember, it was his band."

.

Despite the rap, Prince says, he harbors no ill will toward the now-famous producers working across town from Paisley Park at their Flyte Time studios. "We're friends," he says. "We know each other like brothers. Jimmy always gave me a lot of credit for getting things going in Minneapolis, and I'm hip to that. Terry's more aloof, but I know that." And their music? "Terry and Jimmy aren't into the Minneapolis sound," Prince says. "They're into making every single one of their records a hit. Not that there's anything wrong with that, we're just different."

With this, Prince cues up the Graffiti Bridge movie to the sequence in which the Time performs "Shake!" The scene looks like something Busby Berkeley would have cooked up if he had choreographed funk.

.

The Time, Prince says, is proof of the good that can come from a group dissolving and eventually coming back together. "They broke up because they'd run out of ideas," he says. "They went off and did their own thing, and now they're terrifying."

.

Prince said this formula was just what he had in mind when, in short order, he broke up the Revolution. "I felt we all needed to grow," he says. "We all needed to play a wide range of music with different types of people. Then we could come back eight times as strong."

CharismaDove said:

I don't remember which interview it was or when, but didn't Prince claim something like he had changed recently and that in his past he could easily turn on people and never contact them again? It's a shame. I'm glad they DID reconcile their friendship though, since they go WAY back. Morris was always nice about Prince though. He said something along the effect of, "I still consider him my friend"

ROLLING STONE (1990)

PRINCE TALKS

BY NEAL KARLEN

The crisis didn't involve a leap or a loss of faith, Prince has said, but simply the realization that it was time to stop acting like such and angry soul. "I was an expert at cutting off people in my life and disappearing without a glance back, never to return," he'd said. "Half the things people were writing about me were true."

stillwaiting said:

I noted I'm a terrible musician. I have to play piano beacuse I write most of my songs on piano. I do not perform live, and would only do so under the perfect circumstance, and have no desire to do so. I know enough real musicians who play for a living who would work for Prince, but privately with me have said it probably wouldn't work out. I remember talking to Victor Wooten about it, and he was gushing with praise when I told him he would be perfect for Prince's band. He wouldn't say a negative thing about Prince, but think about it....Rhonda was about to leave the band again, and who did Prince get? Well, Rhonda again, but then Cora Coleman Dunham. Is she better than Wooten? VW may have a nice career of his own, but he would've done it in a heartbeat. Prince has continued to surround himself with suspect musicians. Ever been to Paisley Park to see the cars his employees drive? He simply doesn't pay. I've talked to many ex-Prince band members and heard horror stories of how checks were delayed, and how Denny's would sometimes be the gourmet meal after a show, not because it was all that was open, because it was all they could afford.

Serious world class musicians do not work for pennies on the dollar. When you factor in that Prince is pretty much a tyrant and treats people with little respect and almost no loyalty, it's easy to see why his choices are only people that suck up to him, or are trying to further their career. How'd that work out Tamar? Andy Allo? Bria? And the list goes on and on and on.

Ever wonder why Prince would use You Tube to find YOUNG musicians? He gave the BS about young people being where it is at, but he knows older musicans with better talent won't take his shit anymore.

Who in their right mind would have dissolved the SOTT/Lovesexy era band? Nobody.

How does this tie in to the subject? It's obvious he can work with Morris, but has no desire to give up any of the profits. He continues to burn bridges and squander opportunity. He is still the brightest star in music in my eyes, but there is a lot of baggage. Just having Tony M in his band with those Star Trek Next Generation uniforms is a black mark on his career, that sadly, he never can erase.

While I can believe some people couldn't stand 's behavior, I think u may not realize that the world has thousands of top notch musicians (I mean we're 7 billion on Earth, right?), and I suspect even more in the US and even MORE in the US African American community. I mean when one reads your post it sounds like there's an elite of about 100 top notch players in the world and the rest is just average to decent, and should hire people from this top 100. I know it may sound contradictory with what I said earlier about knowing many musicians personally but out of all the professional musicians I've met in my life (a few hundreds I guess), I guess maybe about 1 to 5% could play with and survive. But I'm from France where the technical level is usually below the level of US musicians, and anyway HOW MANY professional musicians or aspiring professional musicians are there in the US alone, let alone in the world? Probably dozens of thousands at the very least, hundreds of thousands maybe. So even with 1% that's still a good bunch of top dog players in the wild. Once again this post gives me this weird feeling that mass media has done its job brainwashing people by making them believe artists are like 0,00005% of talented millionaire superstars and the rest is a lifeless mass made of talentless failures who'd be better shooting themselves in the head or get a job at McDonald's, and I think it's sad because it has nothing to do with reality. Now maybe u didn't mean it the way I understood it and if so, I apolozize for misinterpreting, but that's what I understood.

.

As for not paying that much, well when u think of how many extremely talented and skilled people are struggling to make a living as professional musicians, I guess there are many top dog musicians who'd take a gig with even if the money isn't as good as it should be with someone of his stature. I mean SERIOUSLY, we're talking playing with fucking here! U don't say no to that just because it doesn't pay much, unless u're a star of 's stature maybe.

.

Once again, just my view of thangz 4 what it's worth ^^

hopefularranger said:

@stillwaiting

If you were correct, I would concede it; if it were an opinion you offered, I would respect it.

I've been a working musician since I graduated college almost 16 years ago. I've met, worked, performed and, in some cases, become friendly with many of the "clowns" of whom you spoke earlier.

I never say things like this on message boards (especially this one) because when you get down to it, it ain't that serious. It's just show business.

You have NO idea what you're talking about, and the (mis)characterizations you made above have nothing whatsoever to do with the business of the professional musician.

I apologize for my candidness, but I felt compelled to employ it in this instance.

[Edited 8/12/14 8:16am]

You have nothing to apologize for. You can think however you want. If you truly think Prince's bands have had the best possible musicians available, than so be it. I maintain that he's settling for people who play for pennies. I've talked with many of them. If you ever thought that Rhonda or Josh were in the upper 10% of bassists, then that's fine. If you ever thought Kirk Johnson or Cora were world class drummers ok...that's fine. A lot of people agree with me, and that's fine too.

Perhaps "Clowns" was too harsh. Tony M was a clown...many of the other players with him were clowns when you compare them to what was available on the open market for touring musicians. Prince chooses those willing to play for pennies over quality. From 1997 on, he's done this a lot. I will say the 2002 band was special for the show he was playing, and 2004 as well. And as fine as the 2002 and 2004 bands were, they pale in comparison to the 1987 band. Ida is probably the best in his current band, but as a whole, 3rd Eye Girl are not world class musicians. John Blackwell is not the greatest drummer ever, but he more than shows the skills of someone deserving to tour with who I feel is the greatest artist ever. He should still be in the band. But Prince goes for looks and the novelty of an all girl band over quality.

stillwaiting said:

hopefularranger said:

@stillwaiting

If you were correct, I would concede it; if it were an opinion you offered, I would respect it.

I've been a working musician since I graduated college almost 16 years ago. I've met, worked, performed and, in some cases, become friendly with many of the "clowns" of whom you spoke earlier.

I never say things like this on message boards (especially this one) because when you get down to it, it ain't that serious. It's just show business.

You have NO idea what you're talking about, and the (mis)characterizations you made above have nothing whatsoever to do with the business of the professional musician.

I apologize for my candidness, but I felt compelled to employ it in this instance.

[Edited 8/12/14 8:16am]

You have nothing to apologize for. You can think however you want. If you truly think Prince's bands have had the best possible musicians available, than so be it. I maintain that he's settling for people who play for pennies. I've talked with many of them. If you ever thought that Rhonda or Josh were in the upper 10% of bassists, then that's fine. If you ever thought Kirk Johnson or Cora were world class drummers ok...that's fine. A lot of people agree with me, and that's fine too.

Perhaps "Clowns" was too harsh. Tony M was a clown...many of the other players with him were clowns when you compare them to what was available on the open market for touring musicians. Prince chooses those willing to play for pennies over quality. From 1997 on, he's done this a lot. I will say the 2002 band was special for the show he was playing, and 2004 as well. And as fine as the 2002 and 2004 bands were, they pale in comparison to the 1987 band. Ida is probably the best in his current band, but as a whole, 3rd Eye Girl are not world class musicians. John Blackwell is not the greatest drummer ever, but he more than shows the skills of someone deserving to tour with who I feel is the greatest artist ever. He should still be in the band. But Prince goes for looks and the novelty of an all girl band over quality.

I think the way I do because this has been my business for 16 years. Where others have the luxury to presume/assume/suppose/editorialize/speculate, I, for better or worse, have lived/breathed/eaten/endured/worked this life. And here are a few things I've learned about the business of show and how it relates to the discussion at hand.

The musicians who got the gigs were the ones Prince wanted. All of them were capable of delivering their services. All of them worked as professional musicians BEFORE and AFTER he hired them. The only ones who are no longer working in the entertainment industry are the ones who voluntarily left the business (Matt Blistan, for example). Each of them negotiated payment for their effort; none of us have any clue what they made as our names were NOT on their checks. Their level of achievement as instrumentalists has nothing whatsoever to do with Prince. The Prince gig is one of the many on their respective resumes.

I offered NO personal assesment of their abilities; therefore, your comment referencing my presumed belief about who was the "best available" or who the "upper 10% of bassists" is not applicable as I never gave my opinion on that. I won't because it's irrelavant. What I do offer is factual information based on the best evidence anyone can present - personal knowledge and experience in this very area. Dress up conjecture-as-fact if that's what you wish to present; I'm not interested in doing that. What I present is reality, not contrivance. Contrary to what's often asserted, we don't live in a black and white world in which musicians play with Prince because they're lucky, look right and work for peanuts and then go on to do nothing and disappear from the business because their time at one job ended. That world is NOT reality. In real life, these musicians - all of them capable, skilled and experienced, go out and get another gig after leaving Prince's employ. ALL of them did that. Many of us don't see what they're doing after Prince, but that is likely because we're not paying attention - not because they can't get a gig because they weren't really that good in the first place. Professional musicians earn very good livings taking many different types of gigs. Some gigs pay as well as Prince's; some pay far better. Some are for big name acts at the apex of their commercial success (Blackwell and Mike Scott with Timberlake a few years back, Cora last year with Beyonce, the list goes on); some are with artists who tour consistently for years past their commercial peak (Levi with Jody Watley and Tony Toni Tone; Mike Bland with Paul Westerberg; NPG 95 with Nick Jonas, the list goes on). That's just the touring world; when musicians aren't on the road, they're working the private gig world which can earn one a living even more substantial than touring often can. Beyond, there's theater, studio work, accompanying local talent, corporate, social and private event contracts, composing for film & tv, etc. In the big real world, there are all types of jobs in the entertainment field which allow good musicians to sustain themselves. Prince's "band" membership, past and present, continues to succeed in all of these areas of the business and more.

With that, I'll tip my hat and step away. If you care to respond, I'll grant you the final word on the matter. The lifestyle of myself and my friends and colleagues is the foundation upon which my assertions rest...


...solidly.

Thanks for your time.

[Edited 8/12/14 13:04pm]

hopefularranger said:

stillwaiting said:

You have nothing to apologize for. You can think however you want. If you truly think Prince's bands have had the best possible musicians available, than so be it. I maintain that he's settling for people who play for pennies. I've talked with many of them. If you ever thought that Rhonda or Josh were in the upper 10% of bassists, then that's fine. If you ever thought Kirk Johnson or Cora were world class drummers ok...that's fine. A lot of people agree with me, and that's fine too.

Perhaps "Clowns" was too harsh. Tony M was a clown...many of the other players with him were clowns when you compare them to what was available on the open market for touring musicians. Prince chooses those willing to play for pennies over quality. From 1997 on, he's done this a lot. I will say the 2002 band was special for the show he was playing, and 2004 as well. And as fine as the 2002 and 2004 bands were, they pale in comparison to the 1987 band. Ida is probably the best in his current band, but as a whole, 3rd Eye Girl are not world class musicians. John Blackwell is not the greatest drummer ever, but he more than shows the skills of someone deserving to tour with who I feel is the greatest artist ever. He should still be in the band. But Prince goes for looks and the novelty of an all girl band over quality.

I think the way I do because this has been my business for 16 years. Where others have the luxury to presume/assume/suppose/editorialize/speculate, I, for better or worse, have lived/breathed/eaten/endured/worked this life. And here are a few things I've learned about the business of show and how it relates to the discussion at hand.

The musicians who got the gigs were the ones Prince wanted. All of them were capable of delivering their services. All of them worked as professional musicians BEFORE and AFTER he hired them. The only ones who are no longer working in the entertainment industry are the ones who voluntarily left the business (Matt Blistan, for example). Each of them negotiated payment for their effort; none of us have any clue what they made as our names were NOT on their checks. Their level of achievement as instrumentalists has nothing whatsoever to do with Prince. The Prince gig is one of the many on their respective resumes.

I offered NO personal assesment of their abilities; therefore, your comment referencing my presumed belief about who was the "best available" or who the "upper 10% of bassists" is not applicable as I never gave my opinion on that. I won't because it's irrelavant. What I do offer is factual information based on the best evidence anyone can present - personal knowledge and experience in this very area. Dress up conjecture-as-fact if that's what you wish to present; I'm not interested in doing that. What I present is reality, not contrivance. Contrary to what's often asserted, we don't live in a black and white world in which musicians play with Prince because they're lucky, look right and work for peanuts and then go on to do nothing and disappear from the business because their time at one job ended. That world is NOT reality. In real life, these musicians - all of them capable, skilled and experienced, go out and get another gig after leaving Prince's employ. ALL of them did that. Many of us don't see what they're doing after Prince, but that is likely because we're not paying attention - not because they can't get a gig because they weren't really that good in the first place. Professional musicians earn very good livings taking many different types of gigs. Some gigs pay as well as Prince's; some pay far better. Some are for big name acts at the apex of their commercial success (Blackwell and Mike Scott with Timberlake a few years back, Cora last year with Beyonce, the list goes on); some are with artists who tour consistently for years past their commercial peak (Levi with Jody Watley and Tony Toni Tone; Mike Bland with Paul Westerberg; NPG 95 with Nick Jonas, the list goes on). That's just the touring world; when musicians aren't on the road, they're working the private gig world which can earn one a living even more substantial than touring often can. Beyond, there's theater, studio work, accompanying local talent, corporate, social and private event contracts, composing for film & tv, etc. In the big real world, there are all types of jobs in the entertainment field which allow good musicians to sustain themselves. Prince's "band" membership, past and present, continues to succeed in all of these areas of the business and more.

With that, I'll tip my hat and step away. If you care to respond, I'll grant you the final word on the matter. The lifestyle of myself and my friends and colleagues is the foundation upon which my assertions rest...


...solidly.

Thanks for your time.

[Edited 8/12/14 13:04pm]

stillwaiting said:

"Kat Dyson was an ok guitarist, but was she the best available guitar player on the market? Would she be in the top 500? Top 1000? She could play, but be in a legend's band?"




Kat Dyson

Southern-born guitarist/vocalist Kat Dyson relocated to Los Angeles from Montreal via Minneapolis where she was a featured guitarist & vocalist with Prince as a member of the New Power Generation. Her contributions to this musical alliance can be heard on the following recordings: Emancipation, The Truth and Newpowersoul.

Along the way,she has performed with renowned artists including Cyndi Lauper,Natalie Cole,Ivan Neville,Donny Osmond,rap artist T.I.,Seal,Sheila E and C.O.E.D.,Joi,George Clinton and the P-Funk AllStars, MusiqueSoulchild,Phoebe Snow,Res,The Winans,Mary Mary,Yolanda Adams,Big Mamma Thornton, Ben E. King,Bo Diddley, Odetta,Montreal Jubilation Gospel Choir,Celine Dion, Roch Voisine and many others.

Her studio work includes sessions for such artists as Keb Mo',Ziggy Marley,Sheila E.,Dave Stewart (Eurythmics) and Mick Jagger [Alfie soundtrack], Jeff Healey, Jamaican producers Sly and Robbie, Cat Cooer of Third World and Bernie Worrell (Parliament Funkadelic). Before joining forces with Prince, Ms. Dyson is a contributing guitarist and vocalist on the multi-platinum Cyndi Lauper greatest hits album, "12 Deadly Cyns",along with 'Sisters of Avalon'"At Last" and "The Body Acoustic.She continues to perform with Ms. Lauper.