treehouse said:

novabrkr said:

So the only way there wouldn't be a logical / semantic contradiction would be if you were referring to a track like "Le Grind" being a "breakthrough" track, which I doubt was your intention.

Correct me if I've misunderstood you really badly here.

Although, I have to comment still that I seriously can't understand how you can make the claim that a piece like "Le Grind" is very similar to something like "Pheromone" and I doubt too many people here can either. They're stylistically entirely different.

[Edited 5/20/14 12:04pm]

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Wow, yeah I don't think my posts are reaching you. Maybe you're overthinking this because the overall statement I'm making is something you want to disagree with from a gut response, not so much that there's a semantic issue, or contradictions? Sorry to say.

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I do consider Le Grind a breakthrough for Prince's own catalog...for the reasons I've stated. If he needs a song he can default back into that formula....and I guess we can discuss what that formula is, but I'm sure a lot of people aren't going to hear the similarities I'm hearing even if they are pointed out. It'll be like I'm talking about fake hands in Los Angeles.

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I can't stress enough that this isn't unique to Prince. Some of it's how they write, some of it's due to the persona they've created (think Kraftwerk...those poor bastards will never be able to get away from the robot stuff). They get stuck.

No, your use of the word "breakthrough" doesn't make sense in the context you've used it.

(from Google's own dictionary)

As much as I like "Le Grind" it's hardly something I'd use the word "breakthrough" for. No need to use belittling expression such as "sorry to say" when responding back to me in this case.

Likewise, claiming that the pieces you've listed several posts above are really similar doesn't make sense either. "Le Grind" has a SOTT style 80s funk sound and "Pheromone" certainly doesn't have it.

You really want to go in circles about semantics? Just stop. There's no issue or contradiction, you're just lacking a better angle to get dismissive of my observations and opinions.

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What genre do you think Pheremone is, New Jack Swing or something? Cool, but trivial. I clearly said the idea was the same. I didn't say they were identical note for note, you just wish that's what I said. I'm not going to break down the structural similarities, but we're talking about groove based songs with a sexual themes, a repetitive falsetto, some looping stabs, often with horns, call and response chorus (sometimes without the response), and a rapsodic element (it's in Pheremone too, listen closely). Disagree about Pheremone? Aw well, that leaves the other examples. And if it's not Le Grind, it's Cindy C or maybe you can argue another earlier song, I'm game for that. Again, because I clearly need to spell it out (dictionaries don't seem to help you) he got stuck on an idea and it became the foundation he fell back on for a bunch of songs he had success with. It marked a creative personal breakthrough, meaning it was fruitful for his writing to see all these elements working together, but it also marks him getting stuck and returning to that 1987 well one too many times during the 90's and beyond. Even Laydown is reminiscent.

treehouse said:

You really want to go in circles about semantics? Just stop. There's no issue or contradiction, you're just lacking a better angle to get dismissive of my observations and opinions.

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What genre do you think Pheremone is, New Jack Swing or something? Cool, but trivial. I clearly said the idea was the same. I didn't say they were identical note for note, you just wish that's what I said. I'm not going to break down the structural similarities, but we're talking about groove based songs with a sexual themes, a repetitive falsetto, some looping stabs, often with horns, call and response chorus (sometimes without the response), and a rapsodic element (it's in Pheremone too, listen closely). Disagree about Pheremone? Aw well, that leaves the other examples. And if it's not Le Grind, it's Cindy C or maybe you can argue another earlier song, I'm game for that. Again, because I clearly need to spell it out (dictionaries don't seem to help you) he got stuck on an idea and it became the foundation he fell back on for a bunch of songs he had success with. It marked a creative personal breakthrough, meaning it was fruitful for his writing to see all these elements working together, but it also marks him getting stuck and returning to that 1987 well one too many times during the 90's and beyond. Even Laydown is reminiscent.

You seem to think that groove based song are all the same.

treehouse said:

You really want to go in circles about semantics? Just stop. There's no issue or contradiction, you're just lacking a better angle to get dismissive of my observations and opinions.

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What genre do you think Pheremone is, New Jack Swing or something? Cool, but trivial. I clearly said the idea was the same. I didn't say they were identical note for note, you just wish that's what I said. I'm not going to break down the structural similarities, but we're talking about groove based songs with a sexual themes, a repetitive falsetto, some looping stabs, often with horns, call and response chorus (sometimes without the response), and a rapsodic element (it's in Pheremone too, listen closely). Disagree about Pheremone? Aw well, that leaves the other examples. And if it's not Le Grind, it's Cindy C or maybe you can argue another earlier song, I'm game for that. Again, because I clearly need to spell it out (dictionaries don't seem to help you) he got stuck on an idea and it became the foundation he fell back on for a bunch of songs he had success with. It marked a creative personal breakthrough, meaning it was fruitful for his writing to see all these elements working together, but it also marks him getting stuck and returning to that 1987 well one too many times during the 90's and beyond. Even Laydown is reminiscent.

You asked me to demonstrate where I thought I had spotted a contradiction in your statements and I did. I honestly wanted to know what exactly you thought he had "gotten stuck on", because your two consecutive posts implied completely different things. Was it really songs like WDC or Le Grind? His "breakthrough" hits with catchy melodies or more obscure fan favourites that weren't necessarily as catchy? My intention was not to "debunk" your arguments altogether, but just try to aid you to see why what you had written was confusing. Instead you chose to take that as a personal attack on you.

However, your "observation" seems to be based on such a broad generalization that I can't agree on it at all. Your complaint seems to be mainly about his funk or funk-pop tracks and out of all the artists associated with the funk genre Prince's output has got to be the most diverse stylistically. There's of course plenty of other types of music to be found in his output as the guy certainly experimented with different genres in the 90s when the sound associated with his classic recordings had become dated.

Try to see the trees from the forest too. It can be rewarding.

[Edited 5/21/14 9:24am]

paulludvig said:

You seem to think that groove based song are all the same.

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Not at all. Just when they're based around the same ideas, and musical elements.

novabrkr said:

His "breakthrough" hits with catchy melodies or more obscure fan favourites that weren't necessarily as catchy?

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Say what? I can't unravel the mental gymanstics you're using to purposely misundstand my post or fixate on my choices of words like "stuck", "Breakthrough", or whatever other linguistics you're hanging on like you think we're debating Chomsky. I'm clearly talking about Prince's creative breakthroughs. It's the idea. It's the sittting in the studio and hitting on a new formula.

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Many artists will tend to get stuck on these ideas, which were once creative breakthroughs for them, and then default to the formulas again and again. If he's also happened to have had chart hits, in this case while rehashing some of those past ideas, it validates things, and creates a tendency to revisit the formulas rather than grow from new creative breakthroughs. Sometimes it's just a breakthrough to an old formula, but they're still stuck on writing the same song, making the same painting, creating the same cheoreography, making the same artistic statement, again and again. A lot of artists will start writing songs out of the same chord progressions when they're having trouble. This is no different.

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I'm done steadily repeating myself for you. Nothing I'm saying is very advanced, but I can't hold your hand, and we've established that you disagree from the get go.

treehouse said:

paulludvig said:

You seem to think that groove based song are all the same.

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Not at all. Just when they're based around the same ideas, and musical elements.

There aren't many similar elements in Le Grind and Pheromone, unless you think that both song having a beat make them sound the same.

paulludvig said:

There aren't many similar elements in Le Grind and Pheromone, unless you think that both song having a beat make them sound the same.

I gave some reasonings why, and none of them were the beat. And that's only one of the songs I named.

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If someone said Autobahn, Tour De France and Musique Non Stop were the same idea, you'd say "not unless you think having an electronic beat make them sound the same"? Maybe you would but trust me, there's a deeper conversation to be had there.

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treehouse said:

paulludvig said:

There aren't many similar elements in Le Grind and Pheromone, unless you think that both song having a beat make them sound the same.

I gave some reasonings why, and none of them were the beat. And that's only one of the songs I named.

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If someone said Autobahn, Tour De France and Musique Non Stop were the same idea, you'd say "not unless you think having an electronic beat make them sound the same"? Maybe you would but trust me, there's a deeper conversation to be had there.

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I just don't think Le Grind and Pheromone sound anything alike. If you had compared Le Grind to a song like Partyman I would have been able to see your point. You mentioned She's Always in My Hair in an earlier post. Whichs song do you think repeat ideas from that song?

paulludvig said:

I just don't think Le Grind and Pheromone sound anything alike. If you had compared Le Grind to a song like Partyman I would have been able to see your point. You mentioned She's Always in My Hair in an earlier post. Whichs song do you think repeat ideas from that song?

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Okay, take Partyman if you rather. It doesn't bother me if you find some examples stronger than others. I'm sure collectively we could all come up with an even longer list.

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She's Always in My Hair...that's about the tempo, with the blues guitars, for a ballad. I can't think of a song like it on For You, Prince, Dirty Mind, Controversy, or 1999 prior to writing that song.

treehouse said:

paulludvig said:

I just don't think Le Grind and Pheromone sound anything alike. If you had compared Le Grind to a song like Partyman I would have been able to see your point. You mentioned She's Always in My Hair in an earlier post. Whichs song do you think repeat ideas from that song?

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Okay, take Partyman if you rather. It doesn't bother me if you find some examples stronger than others. I'm sure collectively we could all come up with an even longer list.

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She's Always in My Hair...that's about the tempo, with the blues guitars, for a ballad. I can't think of a song like it on For You, Prince, Dirty Mind, Controversy, or 1999 prior to writing that song.

Yes, but what about after? Did he repeat the idea?

paulludvig said:

Yes, but what about after? Did he repeat the idea?

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Isn't that my point? Yes. I think he has.

novabrkr said:

treehouse said:

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Wow, yeah I don't think my posts are reaching you. Maybe you're overthinking this because the overall statement I'm making is something you want to disagree with from a gut response, not so much that there's a semantic issue, or contradictions? Sorry to say.

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I do consider Le Grind a breakthrough for Prince's own catalog...for the reasons I've stated. If he needs a song he can default back into that formula....and I guess we can discuss what that formula is, but I'm sure a lot of people aren't going to hear the similarities I'm hearing even if they are pointed out. It'll be like I'm talking about fake hands in Los Angeles.

.

I can't stress enough that this isn't unique to Prince. Some of it's how they write, some of it's due to the persona they've created (think Kraftwerk...those poor bastards will never be able to get away from the robot stuff). They get stuck.

No, your use of the word "breakthrough" doesn't make sense in the context you've used it.

(from Google's own dictionary)

breakthrough

ˈbreɪkθruː/

noun

noun: breakthrough; plural noun: breakthroughs; noun: break-through; plural noun: break-throughs

1. a sudden, dramatic, and important discovery or development.

   "a major breakthrough in the fight against AIDS"

   synonyms:

   advance, development, step forward, leap forward, quantum leap, step in the right direction, success, discovery, find, improvement, innovation, revolution; More progress, headway, advancement "a major breakthrough in the fight against AIDS"

   antonyms:

   setback

   • an instance of achieving success in a particular sphere or activity.

     "his big breakthrough came in 1988 when he had two paintings accepted by the RSA"

As much as I like "Le Grind" it's hardly something I'd use the word "breakthrough" for. No need to use belittling expression such as "sorry to say" when responding back to me in this case.

Likewise, claiming that the pieces you've listed several posts above are really similar doesn't make sense either. "Le Grind" has a SOTT style 80s funk sound and "Pheromone" certainly doesn't have it.

But Le Grind was a breakthrough in the fight against AIDS! It was withdrawn from circulation and replaced with Lovesexy! Don't Die of Ignorance. Bit late off the bat considering we'd all been scared shitless by UK Public Health announcements since Sign O The Times by then but hey.

In defence of the LeGrind/Pheromone comparison, there is none. Maybe conceptually relating the colour of the album cover to the overall dark tone of Come like a bad JJ Abrams TV plot as a underlying sarcastic reference to a WB contract signed in weaponised alien jizz might hold some weight, but they are two completely different songs.

[Edited 5/22/14 13:42pm]

OldFriends4Sale said:

jaypotton said:

Oh and the excitement stimulated by Prince playing Electric Intercourse on Thursday (among the hardcore) was because of nostalgia not because it is some amazing song. It is a fine nice song but Prince was right to replace it on PR with The Beautiful Ones (far superior). I believe The Dance (from 3121) is actually a far superior song to EI, in every way! Doesn't mean I wasn't excited to hear it on Thursday!

how is it nostalgia when most of them weren't there to hear it?

Sorry but I was there and the average age of the crowd was mid-40s. There were some but very few people in 20s and I didn't spot any teens. Certainly people there in their 50s too. So very easy for it to be nostalgia!

funkomatic said:

Gustavm said:

Hey now, I like Starfish and Coffee.

Actually all of the songs jaypotton mentioned are damn fucking great!

As I said THAT is why being a Prince fan is so cool. Like Prince's music we are such a diverse group so it is inevitable that none of us will agree on all the songs (we may on some/many). Jusst as there are those who prefer rock Prince vs RnB Prince vs funk Prince vs soul Prince etc. So if you love those songs that is cool. I don't particularly.

jaypotton said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

how is it nostalgia when most of them weren't there to hear it?

Sorry but I was there and the average age of the crowd was mid-40s. There were some but very few people in 20s and I didn't spot any teens. Certainly people there in their 50s too. So very easy for it to be nostalgia!

I'm not disputing if you were there or not

Just because someone is hardcore doesn't mean they were where at 1st Avenue in 1983 when it was performed.

Many people have seen video clips or heard the mp3s/boots only but are still hardcore or excited. So it's not really connected to nostalgia...

You are assuming that by age and excitement that all those people were there in 1983

The main reason? Wendy & Lisa. It was never the same after they went.

Bighead said:

Because he worked with a lot of people and they had an input into what was written, recorded and released. Everyone kept him grounded and the quality was high. After a while, he started thinking he could do no wrong and it all went downhill for the most part.

That about sums it up.