The drop in quality in his music post 87 was so immediate and so drastic that there was something major at play. It may well be a lot of factors coming in to play at once. His age, complacency, band members leaving, drugs.. My guess would be all of the above.

Lets not forget it was a massive exodus, not just the band members, but behind the scenes too. Susan Rogers, David Leonard, Peggy Mac, David Z, his entire management company Cavallo, Ruffalo and Fargnoli, Alan Leeds...everyone jumped ship. Something was going on.

[Edited 5/19/14 12:07pm]

treehouse said:

databank said:

Thinking of the Op's question: why was '85-'87 such a great period? Well, women's periods usually last for a few day at most, se excuse me but a three YEARS long period has to be the GREATEST of them all!!!

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Uh. We'd have to excuse you for being that drastically misinformed about the female body, ovulation, and the reproductive system, to start with.... but then it's still hard to excuse the idea that Prince only had 3 great years...Controversy was 1981, 1999 was in 1982, and The Black Album in 1988....so he was on top for the better part of a decade.

I don't think anyone is saying this is the only great period, because most people who say this period was like off the chart, it's seated within the 1978-1988 great period

BartVanHemelen said:

jaypotton said:

You have to take account of nostalgia. IF we went back in a time machine and dropped 3121 in 1987 it would have sounded groundbreaking and amazing.

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This is a nonsensical argument.

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Also, nostalgia doesn't account for Prince's 1980s songs continuing to appeal to new listeners, whereas his more recent work is rightfully rejected for the mediocre tripe it is. Hell, even Prince knows this, hence his setlists being 75% songs that are 25/30 years old, with the odd recent one thrown in occasionally. Nobody is clamoring for Prince to play "Push", but when he plays "Electric Intercourse" (an unreleased 30 year old track) everyone goes nuts. That has got nothign to do with nostalgia, and everything with quality.

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No it isn't. D&P is largely unlistenable, and not just because of the dated sound.

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And 3121 is a great album musically (though lyrically Prince has lost some of his playful innovation overall) and ranks up there with the 80s IMHO.

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See above: if it was any good, Prince would be playing songs from it. He doesn't.

In YOUR opinion. Nostalgia is a scientifically proven fact that is especially infuencial during your teenage years.

However, I wasn't saying the 80s albums were not his creative peak, they most certainly were, but I do think you and others are overly harsh on anything post 80s and all his albums have some amazing songs on them if not a fully consistent album worth!

Oh and *I* actually enjoy D&P (minus two tracks).

Oh and Johnny Cash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TrevorAyer said:

yeah .. nostalgia is is not a valid arguement .. 3121 would be a garbage album .. had he released anything post wb in place of his outstanding wb career, prince would be a nobody .. it is just toilet water music .. minimizing classic tracks such as I would die for you, tamborine, starfish and cofee and venus de milo is simply baffling

Hmmm see reply to Bart - 3121 is far from garbage but that is my opinion and that is yours!

OldFriends4Sale said:

jaypotton said:

You have to take account of nostalgia. IF we went back in a time machine and dropped 3121 in 1987 it would have sounded groundbreaking and amazing. Prince was leading the zeitgeist in the 80s. His influence was everywhere. NO artist can sustain that. Fine me one example of a musical artist with a 35 year career who is as good throughout (or more relevant to this thread - in the last decade of their career so far)! Prince hit a musical/creative peak with SOTT for sure. But to totally dismiss his ouput eversince (as some on the org like to do) is simply silly.

People often use the "his albums are not consistent anymore" (ie not everyone song on the album is a great track). Well I would argue that every Prince album has at least one weak song - yep even PR (IWD4U), ATWIAD (Tamborine), Parade (Venus De Milo), SOTT (Starfish and Coffee).

The 90s had some great albums, yes D&P introduced some unwelcome Tony M but take two tracks off and it is awesome. needed editing but if you do (my track list would be different to yours perhaps) but still a great album. TGE is an awesome album!

Personally I think Prince's "problem" since leaving WB is that Prince cannot edit himself. He wants (or did for a while maybe not now) to put it all out there for out consumption - everything. Saying that though, *I* would rather have a wealth of material from unedited Prince to allow myself to put together playlists that *I* prefer anyway!

And 3121 is a great album musically (though lyrically Prince has lost some of his playful innovation overall) and ranks up there with the 80s IMHO.

I don't believe (others has stated better) that nostalgic ideals have anything to do with it. Genius is genius.

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And I don't see any of those songs as week. It might not move you as it may move someone but doesn't make them week. IWD4U has a melody and movement that has a lot of emotion behind it. That one and Baby I'm A Star constantly remind me that these songs were created (not only for the movie, but for the breakout stardome they were dreaming of) One reason I love Our Destiny(Lisa Coleman) so much it fits that same drive

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Tamborine, I love for it's wild masturbatory self indulgence, it's class Prince,-Tick Tick Bang81 the wild drumming and sharp quick use of the fingercymbals. It's not long which make me like it even more. Venus de Milo is touching a piece meant 4 the movie and the feeling again I love, his piano playing I love just as much as his guitar solos. That song like Condition of the Heart/UTCM showcases his paino skills. touching.

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And Star Fish & Coffee I never saw as week. As much as I love SOTT/It/Forever In My Life, I can listen 2 Starfish & Coffee over and over, I love the image it paints (co-written by Susannah) the imagery and color never dulls.

And you are of course welcome to your valid opinion as am I. I guess it is all down to taste but even in 1984 I used to lift the stylus when it came to IWD4U.

V10LETBLUES said:

Oh and the excitement stimulated by Prince playing Electric Intercourse on Thursday (among the hardcore) was because of nostalgia not because it is some amazing song. It is a fine nice song but Prince was right to replace it on PR with The Beautiful Ones (far superior). I believe The Dance (from 3121) is actually a far superior song to EI, in every way! Doesn't mean I wasn't excited to hear it on Thursday!

joyinrepetition said:

V10LETBLUES said:

The drop in quality in his music post 87 was so immediate and so drastic that there was something major at play. It may well be a lot of factors coming in to play at once. His age, complacency, band members leaving, drugs.. My guess would be all of the above.

Lets not forget it was a massive exodus, not just the band members, but behind the scenes too. Susan Rogers, David Leonard, Peggy Mac, David Z, his entire management company Cavallo, Ruffalo and Fargnoli, Alan Leeds...everyone jumped ship. Something was going on.

[Edited 5/19/14 12:07pm]

Prince still had that Prince sound up to 1995. The drop off to me was Emancipation. Everything started to sound the same. Personally I feel that he got into a rut of giving half ass songs to WB to get out his contract and he kept making half ass songs with a gem here or there. The form started to return with Musicology and 3121 was great. Since then, he's been up a down. Just because you get a little older doesn't mean you can't have that same fire! Like Prince said, his only competition is him in the past. Well that past Prince is kicking his ass! [Edited 5/19/14 12:19pm]

Got to disagree, it was a drastic and sudden change statrting in 87. I for one cannot stand any of his 90's records except for a few songs here and there. Overall to me that era has a joyless overtly childish vibe that was lacking in any kind of charm or creativity.

[Edited 5/19/14 22:46pm]

Gustavm said:

jaypotton said:

People often use the "his albums are not consistent anymore" (ie not everyone song on the album is a great track). Well I would argue that every Prince album has at least one weak song - yep even PR (IWD4U), ATWIAD (Tamborine), Parade (Venus De Milo), SOTT (Starfish and Coffee).

Hey now, I like Starfish and Coffee.

Actually all of the songs jaypotton mentioned are damn fucking great!

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't think anyone is saying this is the only great period, because most people who say this period was like off the chart, it's seated within the 1978-1988 great period

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Excluding Purple Rain, 1999, or Black Album from that period though?

Relating it to Women's menstrual periods?

It's all weird.

[Edited 5/19/14 12:54pm]

jaypotton said:

Oh and the excitement stimulated by Prince playing Electric Intercourse on Thursday (among the hardcore) was because of nostalgia not because it is some amazing song. It is a fine nice song but Prince was right to replace it on PR with The Beautiful Ones (far superior). I believe The Dance (from 3121) is actually a far superior song to EI, in every way! Doesn't mean I wasn't excited to hear it on Thursday!

Nice theory, bro.

funkomatic said:

Gustavm said:

Hey now, I like Starfish and Coffee.

Actually all of the songs jaypotton mentioned are damn fucking great!

Exactly!

V10LETBLUES said:

joyinrepetition said:

V10LETBLUES said:

Prince still had that Prince sound up to 1995. The drop off to me was Emancipation. Everything started to sound the same. Personally I feel that he got into a rut of giving half ass songs to WB to get out his contract and he kept making half ass songs with a gem here or there. The form started to return with Musicology and 3121 was great. Since then, he's been up a down. Just because you get a little older doesn't mean you can't have that same fire! Like Prince said, his only competition is him in the past. Well that past Prince is kicking his ass! [Edited 5/19/14 12:19pm]

Got to disagree, it was a drastic and sudden change statrting in 87. I for one cannot stand any of his 90's records except for a few songs here and there. Overall to me that era has a joyless overtly childish vibe that was lacking in any kind of charm or creativity.

[Edited 5/19/14 22:46pm]

Mainstream music in general dropped off in quality after 87. There was some great music, but there was a lot of crap that was hitting the airwaves from 88 to 90. That's why people were gravitating towards hip hop because it was the one of the few genres of music that seemed genuine and exciting. I think Prince looked around and saw the entire scene changed on him. I don't think Wendy and Lisa would have provided any solutions. Just listen to their first two solo albums, they were still stuck in that mid 80s Revolution vibe. Their lack of record sells prove that sound wasn't hot anymore. Prince was either going with the flow to stay relevant and sell records or completely disappear. So many artists from the early 80s got lost in the shuffle because they couldn't keep up.

V10LETBLUES said:

The drop in quality in his music post 87 was so immediate and so drastic that there was something major at play. It may well be a lot of factors coming in to play at once. His age, complacency, band members leaving, drugs.. My guess would be all of the above.

Lets not forget it was a massive exodus, not just the band members, but behind the scenes too. Susan Rogers, David Leonard, Peggy Mac, David Z, his entire management company Cavallo, Ruffalo and Fargnoli, Alan Leeds...everyone jumped ship. Something was going on.

I think that Prince simply reached his creative peak in 1987/88.Happens to every artist after a string of truly great records

lrn36 said:

That's why people were gravitating towards hip hop because it was the one of the few genres of music that seemed genuine and exciting.

[...]

I don't think Wendy and Lisa would have provided any solutions. Just listen to their first two solo albums, they were still stuck in that mid 80s Revolution vibe.

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Who could resist the genuiness of Kriss Kross, Another Bad Creation, Candyman, Positive K, or Sir Mixalot? Half kidding.

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I don't think Wendy and Lisa sounded enough like 80's Revolution. The strongest song, was the single that could have been on ATWIAD. I also tend to think fans would have been thrilled if Prince got stuck on When Doves Cry and just kept doing variations of it, with the occasional nod to Controversy/Delirious. He kind of got stuck on Le Grind or She's Always in My Hair, instead...maybe? Which sounds equally as awesome on paper, but maybe not so much in reality. He definitely got stuck along the way.

Considering how stylistically diverse his output was in the 1990s I see no reason to say that he "got stuck".

I didn't mean to imply he didn't have another original idea or change styles. Obviously, I wouldn't generalize like that about a whole era of releases... but it seems like he got stuck and started rehashing (or revisiting) a lot of the breakthrough ideas, and unlike past records, they rarely anchored cohesive projects.

lrn36 said:

V10LETBLUES said:

Mainstream music in general dropped off in quality after 87.

I'm sorry, but that statement is just untenable.

In the '90s, the Dutch Top 40 chart was slowly filled with a lot of house music and other crap. But good (mainstream) music was still being made.

And well-established acts not scoring hits nowadays doesn't mean they're not making good and/or commerical music anymore. Except for Prince, of course. He should just stop and open the vault.

jaypotton said:

Oh and the excitement stimulated by Prince playing Electric Intercourse on Thursday (among the hardcore) was because of nostalgia not because it is some amazing song. It is a fine nice song but Prince was right to replace it on PR with The Beautiful Ones (far superior). I believe The Dance (from 3121) is actually a far superior song to EI, in every way! Doesn't mean I wasn't excited to hear it on Thursday!

how is it nostalgia when most of them weren't there to hear it?

jaypotton said:

Oh and the excitement stimulated by Prince playing Electric Intercourse on Thursday (among the hardcore) was because of nostalgia not because it is some amazing song. It is a fine nice song but Prince was right to replace it on PR with The Beautiful Ones (far superior). I believe The Dance (from 3121) is actually a far superior song to EI, in every way! Doesn't mean I wasn't excited to hear it on Thursday!

First time I heard Electric Intercourse I believe was about 4-5 years ago. What's so great about the song is the desperat emotion in his scream, the gentle touch of piano, the melody of the vocals... but for someone that doesn't appreciate the song, it can sound a bit like it's not going anywhere. If you know how to appreaciate the little things in it, then it's one of his best. I personally think it was right to put The Beautiful Ones in the movie and album instead of electric intercourse because of the story that is told. However electric intercourse could fit other scenes, and it could be on a disck two or deluxe edition of purple rain, which I'm hoping it will. It is a classic to me.

treehouse said:

I didn't mean to imply he didn't have another original idea or change styles. Obviously, I wouldn't generalize like that about a whole era of releases... but it seems like he got stuck and started rehashing (or revisiting) a lot of the breakthrough ideas, and unlike past records, they rarely anchored cohesive projects.

Aren't you contradicting yourself here?

First you stated that he got stuck repeating the type of songs as "Le Grind" and "She's Always In My Hair", but here you state that he's rehashed his "breakthrough" ideas. By that expression I could imagine you referring to songs like WDC.

Sure, at some point Prince started repeating himself, but I wouldn't say it necessarily started until the late-90s. I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that, for example, the symbol album sounds like his 80s output.

novabrkr said:

Aren't you contradicting yourself here?

First you stated that he got stuck repeating the type of songs as "Le Grind" and "She's Always In My Hair", but here you state that he's rehashed his "breakthrough" ideas. By that expression I could imagine you referring to songs like WDC.

Sure, at some point Prince started repeating himself, but I wouldn't say it necessarily started until the late-90s. I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that, for example, the symbol album sounds like his 80s output.

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I'm sure I've contradicted myself somewhere, but how is that one?

I haven't said he never recorded another breakthrough again, I'm saying he tended to get stuck on these formulas. All artists do this to some extent, it's just wether they get trapped, or stuck as I put it. Can you really say le grind, sexy mf'er, pheremone, pussy control, come are all really different ideas? I might even throw in cream and peach in there though those borrow from other places too. So yes, the Symbol album borrows ideas he used in the 80's.

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I guess you could also say the same of Let's Work, Partyup, All the Critics, and those songs, but then that's the cusp of his breakout into the period we're discussing as his greatest one, and he was able to shake it off and evolve. You can still say "Oh, well Ronnie , Talk to Russia got rehashed in Let's Go Crazy if you're using that criteria" or something like that, but at least he improved on it and created a more realized song with it. He evolved. I don't think he did that with the 90's output. Sexy M'fer doesn't show any evolution over Le Grind unless you count the heavy tribute to James Brown, which he also had some relapses of.

treehouse said:

lrn36 said:

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Who could resist the genuiness of Kriss Kross, Another Bad Creation, Candyman, Positive K, or Sir Mixalot? Half kidding.

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I don't think Wendy and Lisa sounded enough like 80's Revolution. The strongest song, was the single that could have been on ATWIAD. I also tend to think fans would have been thrilled if Prince got stuck on When Doves Cry and just kept doing variations of it, with the occasional nod to Controversy/Delirious. He kind of got stuck on Le Grind or She's Always in My Hair, instead...maybe? Which sounds equally as awesome on paper, but maybe not so much in reality. He definitely got stuck along the way.

Ha Ha. Well, I was thinking more like EPMD, Eric B and Rakim, Big Daddy Kane, KRS-1, Public Enemy, NWA, De La Soul, Beastie Boys, LL Cool J, Mc Lyte, and the Native Tongue crew. Late 80s hip hop was like 1950s rock and roll.

You dont think Waterfall, Honeymoon Express and Side Show could have easily fit into the Parade or Dream Factory era?

[Edited 5/20/14 11:31am]

treehouse said:

novabrkr said:

Aren't you contradicting yourself here?

First you stated that he got stuck repeating the type of songs as "Le Grind" and "She's Always In My Hair", but here you state that he's rehashed his "breakthrough" ideas. By that expression I could imagine you referring to songs like WDC.

Sure, at some point Prince started repeating himself, but I wouldn't say it necessarily started until the late-90s. I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that, for example, the symbol album sounds like his 80s output.

.

I'm sure I've contradicted myself somewhere, but how is that one?

I haven't said he never recorded another breakthrough again, I'm saying he tended to get stuck on these formulas. All artists do this to some extent, it's just wether they get trapped, or stuck as I put it. Can you really say le grind, sexy mf'er, pheremone, pussy control, come are all really different ideas? I might even throw in cream and peach in there though those borrow from other places too. So yes, the Symbol album borrows ideas he used in the 80's.

.

I guess you could also say the same of Let's Work, Partyup, All the Critics, and those songs, but then that's the cusp of his breakout into the period we're discussing as his greatest one, and he was able to shake it off and evolve. You can still say "Oh, well Ronnie , Talk to Russia got rehashed in Let's Go Crazy if you're using that criteria" or something like that, but at least he improved on it and created a more realized song with it. He evolved. I don't think he did that with the 90's output. Sexy M'fer doesn't show any evolution over Le Grind unless you count the heavy tribute to James Brown, which he also had some relapses of.

You seem to be contradicting yourself, because you originally stated that

1. Most fans would have preferred him to do "variations" of songs like "When Doves Cry", "Controversy" or "Delirious".
2. He "got stuck" on doing songs that were similar to "Le Grind" and "She's Always In My Hair" instead.

Then in the next comment you state that

3. It seems that he "got stuck and started rehashing (or revisiting) a lot of the breakthrough ideas".

So "3" doesn't seem to convey the same idea as "2" does. Instead you are criticizing him for what you would have apparently preferred him to do with "1". I understood that by the expression "breakthrough" you are referring to songs like "When Doves Cry" and not "Le Grind". So the only way there wouldn't be a logical / semantic contradiction would be if you were referring to a track like "Le Grind" being a "breakthrough" track, which I doubt was your intention.

Correct me if I've misunderstood you really badly here.

Although, I have to comment still that I seriously can't understand how you can make the claim that a piece like "Le Grind" is very similar to something like "Pheromone" and I doubt too many people here can either. They're stylistically entirely different.

[Edited 5/20/14 12:04pm]

databank said:

BartVanHemelen said:

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I don't doubt that, and I can understand WB expecting P to have learned his lesson and hoping he'd apply the same work ethic to future projects, but P seemed to have immediately forgotten what actually went into D&P.

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And the price for that "huge sale" is an album that I found to be a huge disappointment at the time, one which has aged badly. An era that P dismissed mere years later (remember the article that ended up being reprinted in the liner notes of TGE).

I think D&P was a disappointment to everyone back then. I mean I like it and I liked it back then but it's nowhere as mindblowing as anything from 82 to 88 or even a year later.

Strangely enough, Michael Kopplemann said once that the original mixes were brilliant and that P ruined them with too much overdubs. I'm not convinced when I listen to the D&P demos, though, but maybe I'd need to have them with a pristine sound quality to really compare.

Of course, the "original mixes" Koppelmann referred to might not be the circulating things we've heard. We get outtakes at some point in their development, not necessarily at their best point, or even at an artistically significant point in their development.

lrn36 said:

Ha Ha. Well, I was thinking more like EPMD, Eric B and Rakim, Big Daddy Kane, KRS-1, Public Enemy, NWA, De La Soul, Beastie Boys, LL Cool J, Mc Lyte, and the Native Tongue crew. Late 80s hip hop was like 1950s rock and roll.

You dont think Waterfall, Honeymoon Express and Side Show could have easily fit into the Parade or Dream Factory era?

[Edited 5/20/14 11:31am]

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Ha. What's called the Golden Era of hip hop still was rooted in the idea of players, ballers, party rockers and a lot of that stuff Prince personafied, don't you think?

.

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Definintely agree some of the W&L stuff sounded Princely, but not enough of it to keep a lot of Revolution fans interested. I wasn't interested in them getting their own identity, I wanted 9 songs that sounded like Waterfall.

V10LETBLUES said:

The drop in quality in his music post 87 was so immediate and so drastic that there was something major at play. It may well be a lot of factors coming in to play at once. His age, complacency, band members leaving, drugs.. My guess would be all of the above.

Lets not forget it was a massive exodus, not just the band members, but behind the scenes too. Susan Rogers, David Leonard, Peggy Mac, David Z, his entire management company Cavallo, Ruffalo and Fargnoli, Alan Leeds...everyone jumped ship. Something was going on.

[Edited 5/19/14 12:07pm]

Really good post, in my opinion.

I mean, it's pretty obvious.

novabrkr said:

So the only way there wouldn't be a logical / semantic contradiction would be if you were referring to a track like "Le Grind" being a "breakthrough" track, which I doubt was your intention.

Correct me if I've misunderstood you really badly here.

Although, I have to comment still that I seriously can't understand how you can make the claim that a piece like "Le Grind" is very similar to something like "Pheromone" and I doubt too many people here can either. They're stylistically entirely different.

[Edited 5/20/14 12:04pm]

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Wow, yeah I don't think my posts are reaching you. Maybe you're overthinking this because the overall statement I'm making is something you want to disagree with from a gut response, not so much that there's a semantic issue, or contradictions? Sorry to say.

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I do consider Le Grind a breakthrough for Prince's own catalog...for the reasons I've stated. If he needs a song he can default back into that formula....and I guess we can discuss what that formula is, but I'm sure a lot of people aren't going to hear the similarities I'm hearing even if they are pointed out. It'll be like I'm talking about fake hands in Los Angeles.

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I can't stress enough that this isn't unique to Prince. Some of it's how they write, some of it's due to the persona they've created (think Kraftwerk...those poor bastards will never be able to get away from the robot stuff). They get stuck.

Gustavm said:

Of course I am assuming most fans think this but I do think that most of us think alot of great music was made during this time. Why do you guys think that is?

Drum machines

mrsquirrel said:

Gustavm said:

Of course I am assuming most fans think this but I do think that most of us think alot of great music was made during this time. Why do you guys think that is?

Drum machines

Because he wanted to build Paisley Park so he did and the rest is history?