databank said:

U really must think low of them to believe they'd just go at the library of congress and say "oh, ok it was copyrighted that say so it must have been recorded that day, that will do, let's go watch a movie now": the info we have is the result of years of work and dozens of interviews.

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What the hell are you blathering about? I was responding to the person that was talking about how Prince has registered his song copyrights as if that was the authorship date. The Vault webstie does in fact referenced the registration date for some songs, but I realize you can't follow a conversation.

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http://www.princevault.com/index.php/By_Alien_Means

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WB isn't going to litigate based on fan sites and leaks of production logs they don't have. Plus contrary to claims here, they don't own every recording from every studio visit Prince made.

treehouse said:

databank said:

U really must think low of them to believe they'd just go at the library of congress and say "oh, ok it was copyrighted that say so it must have been recorded that day, that will do, let's go watch a movie now": the info we have is the result of years of work and dozens of interviews.

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What the hell are you blathering about? I was responding to the person that was talking about how Prince has registered his song copyrights as if that was the authorship date. The Vault webstie does in fact referenced the registration date for some songs, but I realize you can't follow a conversation.

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http://www.princevault.com/index.php/By_Alien_Means

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WB isn't going to litigate based on fan sites and leaks of production logs they don't have. Plus contrary to claims here, they don't own every recording from every studio visit Prince made.

Not trying to argue but that was not what I said

jaypotton said:

Not trying to argue but that was not what I said

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You brought up his registered work. What was the point in that? It doesn't signifiy a creation date, nor is it a acurate list or list of completed works, but you're implying WB use it as a source to litigate over the creation of works by Prince during his contract years? Your reference is a fanzine, a fan site, and an unauthorized biographer. WB couldn't dream of a better roundup of evidence, right?

Have you forgotten what you said? Here....

jaypotton said:

Final point - if you refer to the excellent reference The Vault by the Uptown crew and Per Nilsen you will see that Prince has actively ensured he has registered his song copyrights throughout his career - for both released and unreleased songs.

^ In the end it seems that none of us 3 can follow a conversation (and I'll gladly include myself in that)

My point wasn't so much that WB had detailed logs (they did at least for the fisrt part of the 80's and stuff that at this time wasn't recorded by P at his warehouse, mobile and home studio, after 1985 IDK who got those logs). My point was that if things had had to go legal, and admitting P wouldn't have openly been claiming that the songs dated from the WB years as he did on the liner notes of CB and the NPGMC releases, WB's lawyers could easily have proven that the material dated back to the WB years in front of a court of law. If WE know when the songs were recorded, a team of lawyers wouldn't have had any difficulties providing substantial proof and data to a judge. Ask your lawyer.

databank said:

If WE know when the songs were recorded, a team of lawyers wouldn't have had any difficulties providing substantial proof and data to a judge. Ask your lawyer.

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That's silly. Again, I'll state the obvious - what we think "we know" isn't admissable in a court of law.

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Unless Prince submitted the songs to WB, they have no claim to them.

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We can come to that conclusion because he did release/publish some songs, with dates from the WB years, and that shows that WB has no entitlement, or no desire to enforce their entitlements.

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No idea why you're under some spell which has you thinking WB has logs for all pre-1985 recordings. The very early days probably were in WB contracted studios and more structured, with all songs intended for potential release, or b-sides (like what you see with Michael Jackson, where the unreleased material is limited), but Prince is the kind of artist with home demos, sketches, unfinished/unreleased works, and privately owned recordings he hasn't submitted to the label.

It's like John Lennon's Dakota demos. They are owned by Lennon's estate.

treehouse said:

databank said:

If WE know when the songs were recorded, a team of lawyers wouldn't have had any difficulties providing substantial proof and data to a judge. Ask your lawyer.

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That's silly. Again, I'll state the obvious - what we think "we know" isn't admissable in a court of law.

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Unless Prince submitted the songs to WB, they have no claim to them.

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We can come to that conclusion because he did release/publish some songs, with dates from the WB years, and that shows that WB has no entitlement, or no desire to enforce their entitlements.

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No idea why you're under some spell which has you thinking WB has logs for all pre-1985 recordings. The very early days probably were in WB contracted studios and more structured, with all songs intended for potential release, or b-sides (like what you see with Michael Jackson, where the unreleased material is limited), but Prince is the kind of artist with home demos, sketches, unfinished/unreleased works, and privately owned recordings he hasn't submitted to the label.

It's like John Lennon's Dakota demos. They are owned by Lennon's estate.

You *could* very well be correct BUT (you knew that was coming) why would Alan Leeds say what he did AND surely Alan Leeds was extremely well placed to know the "facts"?

jaypotton said:

why would Alan Leeds say what he did AND surely Alan Leeds was extremely well placed to know the "facts"?

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Same reason Leeds continues to claims Prince broke up the Revolution because he creatively outgrew working with them or comments on current Prince matters, as if he's still well placed?

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Leeds isn't Owen Husney.

Speaking of which, does this account sound like someone who would sign away all control over for his unpublished work?

http://www.startribune.com/entertainment/music/51509032.html

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Initial deal was 3 records. Prince had some leverage on reupping, but there's no chance Mo Ostin was letting Prince hold physical possession of the Masters for "I wanna be your lover" where they could end up used as a coffee table during the era when companies were merging, based on the value of their catalogs.

[Edited 4/28/14 14:20pm]

Listen IDK why u guys r that obstinate.

The "notion" I have for WB having recording logs at least before 1985 is the very well known story of We Can Funk, then called We Can Fuck, recorded at Sunset Sound in 1983. Because P feared that WB would make a fuss about paying for so many songs that were not radio-friendly because of their hardcore lyrics, he billed the song with the title of another outtake I forgot the name of (that was home recorded so they wouldn't know it), so we know that at least at that time WB paid the studios directly and had logs. But that wasn't my point anyway. U seem to ignore the whole concept of a trial, where lawyers of both parties try to find proofs, witnesses and testimonies that concur their versions of the story in order to convince a judge who has final say on the matter. If (and I say IF) P's contract with WB said that everything he had recorded, studio or live, during his years with the label, belonged to them and if he would release such material and WB would decide to sue, it wouldn't be too hard for WB's lawyers to find solid elements demonstrating that such song has been recorded such year despite the absence of studio logs in their archives. If u relly think P could claim he'd recorded All My Dreams in 2002 and that WB's lawyers couldn't come up with convincing elements saying that it was recorded in 1985, using bootlges that existed as early as the late 80's, published testimonies and data coming straight from Prince's ex-associates and employees and other similar elements to try and make their claim, then u're clearly obstinate and, honestly, wasting my time. The history of music is full of similar stories: do u think Ingrid Chavez had a video of her writing Justify My Love with Lenny Kravitz? I doubt so, still her lawyers somehow found ways to convince a judge of her contribution to the track.

As for what makes me think that WB owned everything P had recorded during hid years with him, it's because yeah, Alan Leeds said something suggesting this. Before that I thought like u that their ownership concerned only released material but then I changed my mind because I think Alan Leeds knows what he's talking about but obviously u think he doesn't, so if he doesn't no one does and for all we know nothing is true, God created the world in a week and the Earth is flat.

Finally the fact that P released some vault material between 98 and 01 and WB didn't move proves nothing because at the same time P also rereleased some WB material and they didn't move either.

So now I don't KNOW anything, I try to make sense of the info we have by sources that r considered reliable. I may be wrong. They may be wrong. But until someone comes up with more solid elements than their own personal theories to contradict Alan Leeds' claims, I'll stick to what he said.

And actually I do think Prince creatively outgrew The Revolution. Personal reasons were dominant is his decidion but I don't think The Revolution would have been the right band to play what P played on the SOTT tour. The Revolution r great musicians, I respect them a lot, but I don't think they were the right band for Prince in 1987.

databank said:

As for what makes me think that WB owned everything P had recorded during hid years with him, it's because yeah, Alan Leeds said something suggesting this.

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And also because it makes kinda sense. If they didn't have say on what he'd record during his contract with them, what's stopping him from shopping those tracks to other parties? If you wanted to duet with P on your record, you'd needed to get permission from WB (which is something he bitched about later because it prevented him from dueting with hit artists and releasing those songs as singles, e.g. him not being allowed to release "So Far, So Pleased").

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I do think it is remarkable that it is a subject I can't recall any artist ever talking about. I know of a few examples of artist releasing older demos etc. apart from the record company that owns the album they're related to (e.g. Pixies' Purple Tape) but most of the time contemporary outtakes (different mixes, demos, unreleased songs) do tend to end up on special editions of the albums they're related to, so there must be some issue of rights involved. Or is that simply a case of artists figuring "oh well this is rather worthless on its own, but when coupled with a reissue it could bring in some loot"?

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Let's not forget that there are plenty of examples of companies taking ownership of products "invented" by employees, even if those were arguably done outside of company time. Considering that WB could argue that it financed a lot of the studio time used to record those osngs that never were released, I wouldn't be surprised if that was covered by the recording contract.

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I think it speaks volumes that Prince stopped releasing archive material at one point, and that further editions of CB never materialised despite being voted on at PP during one of the Celebrations.

BartVanHemelen said:

databank said:

As for what makes me think that WB owned everything P had recorded during hid years with him, it's because yeah, Alan Leeds said something suggesting this.

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And also because it makes kinda sense. If they didn't have say on what he'd record during his contract with them, what's stopping him from shopping those tracks to other parties? If you wanted to duet with P on your record, you'd needed to get permission from WB (which is something he bitched about later because it prevented him from dueting with hit artists and releasing those songs as singles, e.g. him not being allowed to release "So Far, So Pleased").

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I do think it is remarkable that it is a subject I can't recall any artist ever talking about. I know of a few examples of artist releasing older demos etc. apart from the record company that owns the album they're related to (e.g. Pixies' Purple Tape) but most of the time contemporary outtakes (different mixes, demos, unreleased songs) do tend to end up on special editions of the albums they're related to, so there must be some issue of rights involved. Or is that simply a case of artists figuring "oh well this is rather worthless on its own, but when coupled with a reissue it could bring in some loot"?

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Let's not forget that there are plenty of examples of companies taking ownership of products "invented" by employees, even if those were arguably done outside of company time. Considering that WB could argue that it financed a lot of the studio time used to record those osngs that never were released, I wouldn't be surprised if that was covered by the recording contract.

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I think it speaks volumes that Prince stopped releasing archive material at one point, and that further editions of CB never materialised despite being voted on at PP during one of the Celebrations.

Surprisingly, considering that it was a low profile (and expensive) album that came at a point when P's career was at its lowest, CB peaked 62 and 59 in the Billboard 200 and Billboard R&B repectively: it's not a hit but it's not every indie album either that reaches those charts, and considering that at this time record sales were at their highest, that must certainly mean he made some respectable money with CB. Also, P released LOADS of WB-years live and studio material during the first year of NPGMC (if u include the Ahdio Shows), + there were the planned then cancelled releases of Roadhouse Garden and CB II, so that tends to indicate that at this point P was slowly starting to open the gates to the vault and planning to keep doing so, and there was obviously cash to make with that at a time when his finances were reportedly very unbalanced. For long I just thought he'd changed his mind about it and favored a fresh new start with the "jazz" albums (2001-2003) then Musicology and so on (he changes his mind about everything all the time so why not about the vault) but yeah, I now think it's very possible that WB sent him a few warnings and his lawyers told him he better cut the crap or he'd lose if WB'd go to court. It's already awesome that he rereleased some WB tracks and they didn't fall on him immediately.

I think in the end we'll get to know the full story behind this, but it may take some time.

databank said:

Listen IDK why u guys r that obstinate.

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You misused that word more than once in your post. And projecting.

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The story about "We Can F***" is a great example of being gullible as a fan. Labels never consider working titles in the studio to be the release title. It's common for bands to use nicknames, inside jokes, and just shorthand that means something to them until they've decided on a title. The Label wouldn't have a concern about a title until Prince submitted it, which he did as "We can Funk". So your story about the logs doesn't check out in the real world, and it's just folklore. If you think that's evidence, you're mistaken. You have no working knowledge of how the business works. Also, an A&R guy checking logs, or paying bills, wouldn't be able to realistically account for over 1000 songs in an archive and since you claim to be big on using logic...try some.

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WB could litigate over anything under the sun, but we're talking desire and ability to litigate (based on the garbage you're claiming would be admissable) which are two different things. Don't name random copyright infringement cases which are irrelevant, tell me what the precedent case would be?

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Here's a report at the time of the contract. Note, Leeds didn't negotiate it. He's not Gary Stiffleman or even the bodyguards Prince hired to handle business affairs. He wasn't in charge at Paisley Park. Note, the terms were a JOINT VENTURE, and note, Prince retained PUBLISHING CONTROL. If there was any question of ownership of ideas and sketches, it would have been settled by 1992. He retained control over unreleased material, just not released masters, and submitted material.

http://articles.latimes.com/1992-09-04/business/fi-6479_1_warner-bros

treehouse said:

Here's a report at the time of the contract. Note, Leeds didn't negotiate it. He's not Gary Stiffleman or even the bodyguards Prince hired to handle business affairs. He wasn't in charge at Paisley Park.

Learn the difference between PPE and PPR, please. PPE = Davison; PPR = Leeds.

Note, the terms were a JOINT VENTURE

PPR became a joint venture. From http://prince.org/wiki/1992_Contract:

$20 million was used to make Paisley Park Records a joint venture with Warner Bros., which would force Prince to become more involved in the running of the label. Whereas previously PPR would simply supply the master recordings to WB who would then manufacture, distribute and promote the releases, now the label would decide on what to invest in videos and promotional efforts. Warners and Prince would share investments and profits.

That was the plan. The reality:

The partnership between WB and Paisley Park Records was ended in early 1994, after Warners had spent about $5 million on it. PPR itself never made any money, and the only profitable releases on the label were Prince's own. The label was closed.

Continuing with your post:

and note, Prince retained PUBLISHING CONTROL.

Which has got nothing to do with ownership of master recordings. Prince's publishing has always been clear: handled for years by Warner Chappell, then by Universal (a switch that he was advised against, since WC did an excellent job).

If there was any question of ownership of ideas and sketches, it would have been settled by 1992. He retained control over unreleased material, just not released masters, and submitted material.

The article mentions nothing like that. The reality is that P sold WB-era material for a while (on CB and via NPGMC), both released and unreleased, and then suddenly stopped doing so. CBII was cancelled, and NPGMC ceased to exist. Note how Lotusflow3r.com also featured no WB-era material, except for a handful of official videos and two live videos: http://www.princevault.co...flow3r.com while the site could have easily been used to sell outtakes etc.

BartVanHemelen said:

Learn the difference between PPE and PPR, please. PPE = Davison; PPR = Leeds.

Which has got nothing to do with ownership of master recordings. Prince's publishing has always been clear: handled for years by Warner Chappell, then by Universal (a switch that he was advised against, since WC did an excellent job).

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You don't realize how silly you sound.

1) Nobody is confusing PPE with PPR.... Leeds wasn't involved in those contractual arrangements. Admit it.

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2) The Label announced joint ventures with Prince...it suggests a shared ownership and puts a rest to the idea that WB owns the Vault pre-97. That combined with publishing control, stated in the article, means Prince could always use his unreleased music. Which is what we're discussing. As for the Masters - he doesn't own them - very few artists have, and it's always news, and a central part of the story when they do. For now on, Prince gaining control of his Masters will be a big part of his biography.

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3) Prince didn't stop using WB era vault material "suddenly", he used it to dwindling degree through Musicology in 2004. It doesn't imply WB randomely picking that year to send a cease and desist, and legal action, it implies that by 2003 he was more interested in developing and releasing as much current material as possible using a more immediate pipeline, and new models of distribution. He returned to recording unreleased Vault material in 2011 while working with WB's competitor, UMG. That means your theory is wrong. He always had access to unreleased songs at his discretion.

BartVanHemelen said:

I think it speaks volumes that Prince stopped releasing archive material at one point, and that further editions of CB never materialised despite being voted on at PP during one of the Celebrations.

I'm still pissed about this. Pissed as fuck. I spent like 30 minutes at that first PP Celebration voting carefully about which songs I wanted on that collection. It felt more important than a political election (not always a surprise). There were some killer songs on that list. I nearly shit myself (not really) seeing the titles.

But I'm also mad I never got my cassette of The War that was supposed to come with my hockey puck Crystal Ball.

It's shit like this that makes me nervous about these remasters/reissues being anywhere as good as they could/should be.

treehouse said:

He returned to recording unreleased Vault material in 2011 while working with WB's competitor, UMG. That means your theory is wrong. He always had access to unreleased songs at his discretion.

He didn't release any vault material in 2011. If you're talking about Extraloveable, that wasn't vault material. That was clearly not the same recording as the outtake...

djThunderfunk said:

treehouse said:

He returned to recording unreleased Vault material in 2011 while working with WB's competitor, UMG. That means your theory is wrong. He always had access to unreleased songs at his discretion.

He didn't release any vault material in 2011. If you're talking about Extraloveable, that wasn't vault material. That was clearly not the same recording as the outtake...

Treehouse u're so determined to make sense out of nonsense twisting things to make them fit ur POV that I'm gonna stop this conversation now. One can't win with u nor talk any sense into u and ur behavior is not far from what could be considered trolling. Bart and Thunderfunk I suggest u stop arguing with this guy, too: someone who says Alan Leeds doesn't have a clue, Per Nilsen's research is "garbage" and Extraloveable 2011 is WB vault material is obviously trollin' anyway so why waste our time?

Peace.

databank said:

and Extraloveable 2011 is WB vault material is obviously trollin' anyway so why waste our time?

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You are the troll.

Extraloveable 2011 is based off a track from the Vault....Here's what the fan site you think a court of law would recognize has to say about it:

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"In 1988, engineer Chuck Zwicky pulled the track out from the vault and remixed it, telling Prince it should be released. During Prince: A Celebration in June, 2000, computer screens at Paisley Park Studios offered names of a selection of tracks which users could vote on for inclusion on Crystal Ball Volume II, and while the track (now known as Xtralovable) was chosen by fans, the project was ultimately abandoned. It is not known whether this version was the same as an earlier version, or an alternate recording." http://www.princevault.co...raloveable

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So that's inconvenient for you and your trollish ridiculing. Prince went to the Vault for an old track and reworked it. Exactly what we're talking about - Prince using/reworking/rerecording unreleased material first created while he was under contract with WB, despite your claims otherwise.

[Edited 4/30/14 0:05am]

[Edited 4/30/14 0:07am]

treehouse said:

databank said:

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You are the troll.

Extraloveable 2011 is based off a track from the Vault....Here's what the fan site you think a court of law would recognize has to say about it:

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"In 1988, engineer Chuck Zwicky pulled the track out from the vault and remixed it, telling Prince it should be released. During Prince: A Celebration in June, 2000, computer screens at Paisley Park Studios offered names of a selection of tracks which users could vote on for inclusion on Crystal Ball Volume II, and while the track (now known as Xtralovable) was chosen by fans, the project was ultimately abandoned. It is not known whether this version was the same as an earlier version, or an alternate recording." http://www.princevault.co...raloveable

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So that's inconvenient for you and your trollish ridiculing. Prince went to the Vault for an old track and reworked it. Exactly what we're talking about - Prince using/reworking/rerecording unreleased material first created while he was under contract with WB, despite your claims otherwise.

[Edited 4/30/14 0:05am]

[Edited 4/30/14 0:07am]

Unless u're insane, u're a troll, and I don't think u're insane. And unless u're deaf u perfectly know that Extraloveable has not been reworked in any manner from the original recording but rerecorded from scratch

U perfectly know the legal difference between reusing/reworking a track whose masters belong to a label and rerecording it from scratch. If u don't then it shows how confused u r about the whole legal aspects we been discussing since the beginning of this ridiculous conversation we're having.

OK, I'm outta here now, I shouldn't even have answered that, shame on me for doing so.

[Edited 4/30/14 0:21am]

databank said:

Unless u're insane, u're a troll, and I don't think u're insane.

U perfectly know the legal difference between reusing/reworking a track whose masters belong to a label and rerecording it from scratch. If u don't then it shows how confused u r about the whole legal aspects we been discussing since the beginning of this ridiculous conversation we're having.

OK, I'm outta here now, I shouldn't even have answered that, shame on me for doing so.

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Once again, you can't follow a discussion to save your life.

Frankly, I don't think you do know the legal difference between reusing/reworking an UNPUBLISHED track, and rerecording it. There's a legal difference. Next time ask. It's not the same as Prince covering a released song, and he did alter the words, so it would be a breach.

That is unless he never submitted the song to WB, and retained control, which is my theory.

Apparently you also didn't catch that people were arguing that Prince didn't have control over any intellectual property from the Vault...and couldn't revisited that material.

[Edited 4/30/14 0:47am]

Just an FYI: Prince has always had physical possession of the multitrack masters, WB just owned the rights to them on paper, hence Prince was able to create his sampler sets for use in other songs and use parts for his "re-recording" of the "New Masters"...
Does anyone who claims otherwise really think Prince, for example, had someone break into the WB vault to steal his masters to create the WB halted $700 7 CD Sampler set that consisted of samples TAKEN FROM THE MASTER TAPES?! Seriously people...

Neversin.

Neversin said:

Just an FYI: Prince has always had physical possession of the multitrack masters, WB just owned the rights to them on paper, hence Prince was able to create his sampler sets for use in other songs and use parts for his "re-recording" of the "New Masters"...
Does anyone who claims otherwise really think Prince, for example, had someone break into the WB vault to steal his masters to create the WB halted $700 7 CD Sampler set that consisted of samples TAKEN FROM THE MASTER TAPES?! Seriously people...

Neversin.

Of course.

This whole back and forth "discussion" about rights 'n' such is really very interesting, but,

noone mentioned niether the "Purple Medley", nor "Versace Mix (2006)" where Prince re-recorded past hits for these tracks?!

"Purple Medley" was under WB.

The Versace thing was just for a certain fashion show (and the one from 1995, too!)

But, my silly point is:

a freebie of said re-recordings would be alot of fun! But, trying to sell something like that would, imho, be a disaster.

I bought the '1999 New Master' because i can't resist a Prince release. It's fun for one listen. That is all!

Prost!

nayroo2002 said:

This whole back and forth "discussion" about rights 'n' such is really very interesting, but,

noone mentioned niether the "Purple Medley", nor "Versace Mix (2006)" where Prince re-recorded past hits for these tracks?!

"Purple Medley" was under WB.

The Versace thing was just for a certain fashion show (and the one from 1995, too!)

But, my silly point is:

a freebie of said re-recordings would be alot of fun! But, trying to sell something like that would, imho, be a disaster.

I bought the '1999 New Master' because i can't resist a Prince release. It's fun for one listen. That is all!

Prost!

Not much 2 say, as u mention PM was for WB and the 2006 Versace Experience wasn't even released (but even if it had been it was all rerecorded so no issue here).

Maybe one day we'll get those rerecorded albums that r sleeping in the vault but I doubt it'll ever happen at least as long as P is alive.

databank said:

nayroo2002 said:

This whole back and forth "discussion" about rights 'n' such is really very interesting, but,

noone mentioned niether the "Purple Medley", nor "Versace Mix (2006)" where Prince re-recorded past hits for these tracks?!

"Purple Medley" was under WB.

The Versace thing was just for a certain fashion show (and the one from 1995, too!)

But, my silly point is:

a freebie of said re-recordings would be alot of fun! But, trying to sell something like that would, imho, be a disaster.

I bought the '1999 New Master' because i can't resist a Prince release. It's fun for one listen. That is all!

Prost!

Not much 2 say, as u mention PM was for WB and the 2006 Versace Experience wasn't even released (but even if it had been it was all rerecorded so no issue here).

Maybe one day we'll get those rerecorded albums that r sleeping in the vault but I doubt it'll ever happen at least as long as P is alive.

Yes, that was my (maybe left field!) opinion that i don't think anyone (in the general public) would really be interested in such a release. For fans like us (what was the demographic put forth? 20,000?), maybe a third of that base would put cash up for such a thing!

I would file the re-recordings under "shits'n'giggles".

personally having been around studios etc .. i can't imagine an artist of prince caliber .. even at the beginning .. not being meticulously catalogued .. most studios keep good track of everything and if wb is footing the bill then the studio and wb certainly work together to catalog everything as accurately as possible .. wb was paying the studios so whatever prince did .. they knew about .. prince had a lot of stuff going thru wb that was side project esque .. time .. vanity .. bsides .. remixes .. think of the beatles archives that have been opened over the years .. releasing different takes than what ended up on the original records .. take 3 .. take 27 .. somebody was listening to all of that a cataloguing it so 30 years later someone like paul could go back and issue the beatles anthology .. i am sure wb is aware of most everything prince has in the vault that is studio quality .. and likely a large amount of the live stuff to considering the numerous live vhs concerts they released

I agree with databank that it is likely some sort of wb let prince slide kinda thing that happened around CB .. remember when prince released TMBGITW as an unpronounceable symbol in an effort to get out from under the wb contract .. then wb got wind of it .. cuz it was a number one hit .. and all of a sudden prince is on letterman with the gold exp saying its not being released etc .. prince was quite the rebel and wb let him slide a bit before laying the smacketh down on prince candy ass and pulling the gold exp back to wb before prince could release it independently .. seems like a similar thing is plausable with crystal ball being released with no follow up .. splash was a tasty treat on npgmusicclub but that was about it for old wb vault material as the rest became his plastic era new age elevator jams .. and we never got roadhouse garden

I would like to hear the re recorded versions .. for fun .. I wonder if he stayed true or rearranged them or put horns on or .. ugh .. rapped over them .. I would also be curious if prince releases Crystal Ball in its original form instead of Sign O The Times .. it is oft said to be the moment prince stopped caring and trying since wb cut his tripple record down to 2 .. I wonder how strongly prince still feels wb butchered his 'masterpiece' and if he would want to present it properly .. I also would love dnp and symbol records sans tony .. would u be happy with a no tony m remaster if it meant a the christ revision as well? if prince changes the cross to the christ on this remaster and leaves tony m IN .. i will be pissed

TrevorAyer said:

.. I also would love dnp and symbol records sans tony .. would u be happy with a no tony m remaster if it meant a the christ revision as well? if prince changes the cross to the christ on this remaster and leaves tony m IN .. i will be pissed

...there would be absolutely NO "Sexy MF", "MNIP", "Live 4 Love", "Love 2 the 9s", "Gett Off", etc. without the grand lyricist Tony Mosley

I say leave everything as is, but if he wants to ADD more... then i'm all for it!

treehouse said:

databank said:

Yeah of course we know exactly what DAY he released most of the songs in the 80's and WB doesn't... makes a lot of sense 4 sure

Live shows would be limited so they don't compete... where that comes from now? It's either yes or no, what's this "limited" theory?

Listen I totally thought WB had no claim on non-released material until Alan Leeds said so... He mau have been mistaken but c'mon man, we talking Alan Leeds here!

You mean you think you know the dates he recorded his songs? All incomplete, all heresy.

We're talking about unreleased material. WB aren't out buying bootlegs, reading fan websites.

Unless Prince submitted it to the A&R guy (Like say, the Dream Factory material earmarked for relase) they wouldn't normally have ownership.

WB did not have a 360 deal over Prince. Those didn't exist then. There are situations where labels own every creative output, but then they would have owned Paisley Park (instead of just the LA offices) if that was the case. They would also have owned 5 more of Prince's non-WB releases AND the Vault, if so. On the contrary, we know Prince offered music to his own musical, and some Hollywood films, to get around the WB contract.

Not sure what Leeds' said, but I think he's kind of a quack who gets more respect than he deserves, because he seems to talk, and he's one of the only named sources who does. Prince got into trouble under his watch...and before that, he was just a tour manager.

Labels don't get automatic control over live recordings. All the live recordings coming from the Bill Graham Archives, for example... the various Labels have no control over those. Prince released concert videos, and performance films, and it's standard for labels to require exclusivity.

I get where you are coming from, but I'm not sure how WB structured their contracts. The reason I say that is because they just recently released a box set of Rod Stewart live material that covered his duration at WB. That leads me to wonder if Prince's contract didn't have the same type of clause that says they own the master recordings of live material also?

Think about it, Rhino/WB has released lots of good material of outtakes and live material from other artists as well and the material was released long after the artist has left their company.

Neversin said:

Does anyone who claims otherwise really think Prince, for example, had someone break into the WB vault to steal his masters to create the WB halted $700 7 CD Sampler set that consisted of samples TAKEN FROM THE MASTER TAPES?! Seriously people...

Neversin.

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Uh. You mean the set that never came out?

You wouldn't need released master tapes to create a sample library anyway.

TrevorAyer said:

personally having been around studios etc .. i can't imagine an artist of prince caliber .. even at the beginning .. not being meticulously catalogued .. most studios keep good track of everything and if wb is footing the bill then the studio and wb certainly work together to catalog everything as accurately as possible .. wb was paying the studios so whatever prince did .. they knew about .. prince had a lot of stuff going thru wb that was side project esque .. time .. vanity .. bsides .. remixes .. think of the beatles archives that have been opened over the years .. releasing different takes than what ended up on the original records .. take 3 .. take 27 .. somebody was listening to all of that a cataloguing it so 30 years later someone like paul could go back and issue the beatles anthology .. i am sure wb is aware of most everything prince has in the vault that is studio quality .. and likely a large amount of the live stuff to considering the numerous live vhs concerts they released

I agree with databank that it is likely some sort of wb let prince slide kinda thing that happened around CB .. remember when prince released TMBGITW as an unpronounceable symbol in an effort to get out from under the wb contract .. then wb got wind of it .. cuz it was a number one hit .. and all of a sudden prince is on letterman with the gold exp saying its not being released etc .. prince was quite the rebel and wb let him slide a bit before laying the smacketh down on prince candy ass and pulling the gold exp back to wb before prince could release it independently .. seems like a similar thing is plausable with crystal ball being released with no follow up .. splash was a tasty treat on npgmusicclub but that was about it for old wb vault material as the rest became his plastic era new age elevator jams .. and we never got roadhouse garden

I would like to hear the re recorded versions .. for fun .. I wonder if he stayed true or rearranged them or put horns on or .. ugh .. rapped over them .. I would also be curious if prince releases Crystal Ball in its original form instead of Sign O The Times .. it is oft said to be the moment prince stopped caring and trying since wb cut his tripple record down to 2 .. I wonder how strongly prince still feels wb butchered his 'masterpiece' and if he would want to present it properly .. I also would love dnp and symbol records sans tony .. would u be happy with a no tony m remaster if it meant a the christ revision as well? if prince changes the cross to the christ on this remaster and leaves tony m IN .. i will be pissed

Prince obtained WB's permission ("courtesy of" on the back cover) for TMBGITW and when they refused to let him release Love Sign and The Undetaker he complied but back then he was all tied to them, unlike 98 when he had a bigger margin to try and play games with them and their properties. But we definitely agree on what happened with CB and NPGMC (and maybe why Roadhouse Garden and CB II didn't happen).

I would love to listen to the rerecordings as well but the reason why I think P will not release them is because he knew the albums (which most likely have the "plastic" sound of the late 90's) would be compared to the original material and BURCHERED by fans and critics alike. That's probably why he didn't even release his Very Best Of in the first place: the reaction to 1999: The New Master was bad enough.

Editing Tony M. out of the songs would be betraying the original material just as much as altering lyrics as far as I'm concerned. I mean IDK: I think Children Of The Sun and Rythm Of Ur Heart are absolute pieces of crap, as well as Go Go Dancer and Fantasia Erotica, but in the end if Child Of The Sun and Carmen Electra were ever to be remastered I'd like to have them intact, but as u know I'm a very hardcore purist when it comes to preservation of original material.

A limited edition (or digital only edition) of Crystal Ball 86 would make a LOT of sense alongside a remaster of SOTT: after all Prince was forced to edit the album down to 2 records, it wasn't his artistic wish, so CB 86 is more than an early config of SOTT, it's the album P wanted to release (and in my opinion a magnum opus that deserves to be heard as intended with top notch sound quality).

One good hint of whether the songs will be remastered or not is that story from a employee of WB France from a few years back: P entered negociations with WB about 5/6 years ago, about rereleasing deluxe editions of his WB catalogue with unreleased tracks (but without reversal of the masters' rights) and it failed because P was asking a scandalous amount of money but it was to happen without any censorship of cursing and sexual content. I think the story had been reported on the Org back the, I'm not sure. The guy who told the story on the French forum is known among the French fans community (a small circle) so it can be considered legit.

None of us really know what kind of contract WB and Prince signed back then. But from my POV it seems likely that WB do own anything that Prince recorded during the period of the contract with them. Whether it was released or not. Many companies offer employee contracts where the company owns any intellectual property created by the employee during company time, and in some cases, during the entire period of employment. Maybe thats why Prince has never given us much vault material over the years.

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Anyway, whatever the truth is, Prince is now back in bed with WB. So lets see what they come up with. "Met her in a hotel lobby browsing through a magazine" just aint gonna cut it! But I highly doubt anything will be censored like that.

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I doubt Prince really cares that much about the language contained in his past work, or the sexual content. He still makes songs about fucking he just doesnt say "fuck" on record anymore. Im sure when he stubs his toe he still shouts "fuck!". And Ive no doubt he still likes to fuck. But I do worry a bit about the religious stuff. It will be interesting to see, if it happens, what will happen to the song "The Cross" on SOTT. That's not a case of simply censoring bad language. It is more fundamental to the nonsense JW belief system.