We've had this discussion a million times on this very board. As far as I'm concerned, it's over - the albums are out and they're great.

Only thing I will say is it still doesn't seem like we got the full story. I agree with all the 'this is a dick move on Prince's part' stuff, but I'm still not satisfied that pure spite is 100% of the reason behind why the bands can't use their original names.

As for the 'Prince IS the band, he wrote all the stuff' - AGAIN, I will say, WE KNOW THAT.

BUT, I still don't understand why some people here are giving one rule for a Prince-produced band, and another rule for everyone else.

Producers create bands and have a huge say in their first few albums, writing and recording all or most of it, then the artists moves on and has a career outside their original creators influence - that's how it is. Should Donna Summer have changed her name because Giorgio Moroder wrote and produced all her stuff? It's the same with Prince's bands, it's just that some fans can't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that Prince is producer/manager/creator in this situation just like any other producer or writing/production team.

Condensate is a fun record, and Gaslight is my album of 2011 and I still listen to regularly, so I'm more than happy - they proved names just aren't that important at the end of the day - it's about the music.

NouveauDance said:

We've had this discussion a million times on this very board. As far as I'm concerned, it's over - the albums are out and they're great.

Only thing I will say is it still doesn't seem like we got the full story. I agree with all the 'this is a dick move on Prince's part' stuff, but I'm still not satisfied that pure spite is 100% of the reason behind why the bands can't use their original names.

As for the 'Prince IS the band, he wrote all the stuff' - AGAIN, I will say, WE KNOW THAT.

BUT, I still don't understand why some people here are giving one rule for a Prince-produced band, and another rule for everyone else.

Producers create bands and have a huge say in their first few albums, writing and recording all or most of it, then the artists moves on and has a career outside their original creators influence - that's how it is. Should Donna Summer have changed her name because Giorgio Moroder wrote and produced all her stuff? It's the same with Prince's bands, it's just that some fans can't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that Prince is producer/manager/creator in this situation just like any other producer or writing/production team.

Condensate is a fun record, and Gaslight is my album of 2011 and I still listen to regularly, so I'm more than happy - they proved names just aren't that important at the end of the day - it's about the music.

I agree with everything you said here. Though I doubt spite is Prince's primary motivation. I think it's mostly religious (they most join the JW's), and then some of it is he doesn't want to see the guys cut deals that tie up the various rights with other labels and managers that he doesn't want to deal with. In some ways, it's like he is protecting them, and himself to some extent, from another bad situation like he felt he had with WB. I bet that is all there really is to it, from Prince's perspecive. Now if you are some of the bandmembers trying to put food on the table, well you might be pissed.

is it me, or was the article kind of "unfinished". it ended abruptly and seeminly in mid thought. it was definitely unbalanced, but at least bring some "closure" to your imbalance.

jonylawson said:

2elijah said:

The author of the article seemed to focus more on any conflict he could find in the past regarding Prince, to make his article more interesting.

There was no mention of Jesse Johnson's announcement on FB where he publically stated he is leaving the Original7, pretty much leaving the former Time members hanging on a string in limbo. Someone needs to inform the author of that article, that he needs to keep up-to-date. Sounds like he just put together "what he heard" rather than doing thorough research.

Blaming Prince for the O7's struggle to gain new members, is a poor excuse. Regardless of the orignal or new name, if the song/music is good, then the fans will come, regardless of how long a musician/artist has been off the scene, and makes a comeback. Maxwell disappeared for a while, and managed to do well with his album. Maxwell could have changed his name to "Max" and he would have succeeded, as long as the music is good..the fans will come.

The original Time members, weren't together as a group, playing on a consistent basis together, and making new music as a band, for more than 20 years. Everyone went their own way working on their solo projects. So even if they were able to keep their original name, they would have had to work overtime anyway, to attract new and younger fans besides the longtime fans who already know who the original members of The Time are, and are familiar with some of theirr well-known 80s classics, much of which Prince wrote.

Thing is, I can't see not being able to use the original name, being an excuse in their struggle to gain new fans. For them to make a comeback, they have to compete with many 'no-name-never-heard-of-no talent" so-called artists today, making one-phrase catchy songs on youtube, gaining first time and new fans, and receiving over 1 million hits on youtube, while becoming an overnight sensation...Rebecca Black is an example.

She was able to make a one-phrase song, that some would label as 'silly' but the Time was/is also known for one/two phrase catchy, silly songs as well, that became classic hits that many still enjoy today. So I ask, how does an "unknown, so-called artist" on youtube manages to gain over one million plus hits, on youtube in less than a week, and suddenly becomes "popular?" No one knew her name or cared, those who helped her gain over 1 million hits in less than a week, regardless of the age demographic, didn't know who she was, but apparently enjoyed her catchy song, which became a popular one-off hit on youtube. She started receiving interview offers, a thumbsup from many of today's artists, as well as an invitation to appear in a cameo spot, on one of those popular artist's video. All this she gained for the success of her catchy song with the annoying voice. Yet she was an "unknown" to most who heard her song. This is why I feel if a song or music is good from a musician/artist, the fans will come regardless of the musicians/artists' name or a band's name change. At least being an "unknown" with a 'hit' song, worked out for Rebecca Black...for now anyway.

When the former Time members aka Original7, decided to regroup after missing-in-action as a group for more than 20 years. I'm sure like any musician/artist, they were probably hoping their new cd would reach the top of the charts , with their comeback or at least make record-breaking sales, because of who they are and their music talents/history.

Scary isn't it? The way the state of the music industry is today, and what type(s) of music becomes popular and embraced quickly by the public, moreso than music from musicians/artists in the business a long time, who have to struggle to get radio play and attention for their songs/music?

[Edited 12/30/11 18:02pm]

thats a loooong reply

can you post the abridged version??

@ bolded part. Cute.

Let's face it. Prince was, is and always will be his own worst enemy.

i have heard the O7 record and watched the fDeluxe live movie and i can totally see why prince would not want his Time and Family names associated with these projects .. neither are all that good and do not add anything substantial to their respective catalogs .. then again .. i don't think prince should revert to calling himself 'prince' until he writes a song that stands up to his previously named Prince records .. who's to say but one thing is for sure that prince can no longer sing "at least u still got your family name" anymore ..

rdhull said:

jonylawson said:

The Family’s studio output was even more dominated by Prince, and his claim to control of their name may be stronger. Prince created the group by taking three members from The Time, adding two new people, and renaming them The Family. The group’s sole studio album was almost entirely a Prince production. Prince performed all bass, guitar, and keyboards on it, all the drums as well. He recorded demo tracks with his voice, which he also did for The Time’s early albums, and asked co-lead singer St. Paul Peterson to mimic his vocals. The album cover and liner notes are mostly marketing and misdirection that obscures Prince’s role.

Dude, I know and agree to all of this. What gets me is how a few months ago, folks here was all up in arms over Prince refusing names etc to be used in projects of these groups he created as if they didn't know the historical facts of it all lol.

Exactly,

No one mentions the fact the fact that Prince didn't break up these groups back in the day.After he invested time, money and energy, Morris from the Time and Paul from the Family decided to leave those groups. If I was Prince, i wouldn't let them use the names either. Their time to strike was 20 years ago and they let that opportunity pass them by. Lastly, after viewing videos of both groups perform recently and seeing videos of Prince perform recently, you can tell who had the real talent.

A good read, thank you. Plus, it's always nice to see an article critical of Prince that doesn't resort to using terms like 'diminutive' and 'pint-sized'.

2elijah said:

The author of the article seemed to focus more on any conflict he could find in the past regarding Prince, to make his article more interesting.

There was no mention of Jesse Johnson's announcement on FB where he publically stated he is leaving the Original7, pretty much leaving the former Time members hanging on a string in limbo. Someone needs to inform the author of that article, that he needs to keep up-to-date. Sounds like he just put together "what he heard" rather than doing thorough research.

Blaming Prince for the O7's struggle to gain new members, is a poor excuse. Regardless of the orignal or new name, if the song/music is good, then the fans will come, regardless of how long a musician/artist has been off the scene, and makes a comeback. Maxwell disappeared for a while, and managed to do well with his album. Maxwell could have changed his name to "Max" and he would have succeeded, as long as the music is good..the fans will come.

The original Time members, weren't together as a group, playing on a consistent basis together, and making new music as a band, for more than 20 years. Everyone went their own way working on their solo projects. So even if they were able to keep their original name, they would have had to work overtime anyway, to attract new and younger fans besides the longtime fans who already know who the original members of The Time are, and are familiar with some of theirr well-known 80s classics, much of which Prince wrote.

Thing is, I can't see not being able to use the original name, being an excuse in their struggle to gain new fans. For them to make a comeback, they have to compete with many 'no-name-never-heard-of-no talent" so-called artists today, making one-phrase catchy songs on youtube, gaining first time and new fans, and receiving over 1 million hits on youtube, while becoming an overnight sensation...Rebecca Black is an example.

She was able to make a one-phrase song, that some would label as 'silly' but the Time was/is also known for one/two phrase catchy, silly songs as well, that became classic hits that many still enjoy today. So I ask, how does an "unknown, so-called artist" on youtube manages to gain over one million plus hits, on youtube in less than a week, and suddenly becomes "popular?" No one knew her name or cared, those who helped her gain over 1 million hits in less than a week, regardless of the age demographic, didn't know who she was, but apparently enjoyed her catchy song, which became a popular one-off hit on youtube. She started receiving interview offers, a thumbsup from many of today's artists, as well as an invitation to appear in a cameo spot, on one of those popular artist's video. All this she gained for the success of her catchy song with the annoying voice. Yet she was an "unknown" to most who heard her song. This is why I feel if a song or music is good from a musician/artist, the fans will come regardless of the musicians/artists' name or a band's name change. At least being an "unknown" with a 'hit' song, worked out for Rebecca Black...for now anyway.

When the former Time members aka Original7, decided to regroup after missing-in-action as a group for more than 20 years. I'm sure like any musician/artist, they were probably hoping their new cd would reach the top of the charts , with their comeback or at least make record-breaking sales, because of who they are and their music talents/history.

Scary isn't it? The way the state of the music industry is today, and what type(s) of music becomes popular and embraced quickly by the public, moreso than music from musicians/artists in the business a long time, who have to struggle to get radio play and attention for their songs/music?

[Edited 12/30/11 18:02pm]

You just summarize things so careful and thought out! I enjoyed this read, and I agree with everything you said! No need of adding any input! Thanks for the work!

I agree with the vast majority of the post on this thread.

Although talented in their own rights, The Time and The Family were just vehicles to release more Prince music. It's well known that the man had a stockpile of material that for various reasons weren't allowed to be released under the "Prince" name. That's where Vanity/Apollonia 6, The Time, The Family, and possibly all of his other acts come in. I'm guessing that he would simply "give" these groups finished songs to "perform". I'm not surprised that he would deny them use of the names. Like him, they probably didn't think that the right to use their names was under contract too.

SchlomoThaHomo said:

I understand Prince "was" The Time and The Family in terms of the albums/songwriting. But I still think he's a dick for not letting them use their band names so they can get out there and make some money. It's not like he's doing shit with either of those names anyway. It seems more like a power play on his part. And the whole BS about them diluting his legacy? Please! If anything, the bands would be diluting their OWN legacy. Prince's is solidified.

I agree.Unless Prince has future plans to do something with those names (such as creating a "young" version of the Time,with all new members),there's no reason to deny them the right to use it.And yes,I understand that this is "business",but these guys are/were his friends too.At one time,anyway.

SchlomoThaHomo said:

In the case of The Family or fDeluxe, I don't think people give a shit either way. It's not like anybody besides the diehards even know who they are.

But the Time have been touring for years under that name with no involvement or objection from Prince and now that they want to release an album without him, they can't? What good reason could he possibly have for saying no? Old grudges from the 80s? If so, then he's one rancorous motherfucker.

The majority of the record buying public don't even know Prince was The Time. So if the album sucks, it's not like it would reflect poorly on him. And don't forget that they wrote a large chunk of the Pandemonium album. A natural progression would be that they would take an even more active role in writing the material, which is what they did on Condensate.

The 07 shit is just embarrassing. They're the Time. Always will be, with or without Prince, despite the fact that he groomed them and made them stars. I feel like them making their own album without him was too much for his control-freak self to handle and he took away the name as a kind of "fuck you."

I agree.This whole thing brings back ugly memories of the past,when Prince appeared very insecure at times.I would have hoped that,after all the drama he went through with Warners in the 90s,he'd be a little more understanding and supportive of these guys.If he had let them use the name,what harm could it have done to his own life,career and finances? None whatsoever.

SchlomoThaHomo said:

V10LETBLUES said:

I think that is such BS

First off the man puts the Time project together, makes it happen, records the music, hires them, makes the project a big hit, and when The Time is successful, Jimmy and Terry care more about doing their own thing missing concerts. Their own thing is more important. Morris is also telling everyone in the band that the gig wont last and to make sure they have something else lined up. Once Purple Rain is filmed he takes off to become a big solo star. Left the entire project hanging. Who's the dick? I am not saying Prince is still pissed off, but I wouldn't blame him.

He then takes the remaining personnel, comes up with another project, makes it happen, records the music, grooms them, prepares them for stardom and as soon as the album is out, the lead singer up and decides he wants to be a famous solo star. Who's the Dick? I am am not saying Prince is still pissed off, but I wouldn't blame.

Recently it was quoted that Mr. Paul sheepishly asked Susannah in his most whining-est little girl voice, "Do you think Prince is still mad at me.?" "OHH NOES" Susannah comforted him, rolling her eyes.

They are all now successful musicians. Jimmy and Terry are world renown writers and producers, Morris is as famous as anyone. Jesse is a great guitarist and made some great records. Everyone Prince has worked with took the experience as a springboard and took it as far as it would take them. Wendy and Lisa are acclaimed musicians, and film and television composers, Andre Cymone became a top writer and producer, Carmen Electra is a great B-movie star, Appolonia Kotero is a great double D star. They all left on their own terms and made it on their own.

Is Prince a dick for not allowing them to use the names all of these year later? I think the bigger dicks are the ones with the balls to even think of coming back to ask. More so the ones who took to the internetz famz site, mangers in tow bawling for sympathy.

The end.

[Edited 1/1/12 4:44am]

In the case of The Family or fDeluxe, I don't think people give a shit either way. It's not like anybody besides the diehards even know who they are.

But the Time have been touring for years under that name with no involvement or objection from Prince and now that they want to release an album without him, they can't? What good reason could he possibly have for saying no? Old grudges from the 80s? If so, then he's one rancorous motherfucker.

The majority of the record buying public don't even know Prince was The Time. So if the album sucks, it's not like it would reflect poorly on him. And don't forget that they wrote a large chunk of the Pandemonium album. A natural progression would be that they would take an even more active role in writing the material, which is what they did on Condensate.

The 07 shit is just embarrassing. They're the Time. Always will be, with or without Prince, despite the fact that he groomed them and made them stars. I feel like them making their own album without him was too much for his control-freak self to handle and he took away the name as a kind of "fuck you."

Dude, where have you been???

Prince could have offered them a deal.

Or they could have all just said nothing.

Either way, it's sad on both parts.

then again .. should sheila E start spelling her full name? .. how about carmen electra? .. should dave navarro be forced to remove her name tattooed on his chest? .. oh wait .. he already did .. damn that prince is on it .. lets face it .. IMAGE is a lot of the sales factor .. yup the songs were good but just look at milli vanilli or any other boy band that sucks but sells records .. prince was selling sex, style, funk .. the whole package .. just look at vanity or appalonia .. i am pretty sure less records would have moved had prince SUNG nasty girl or had some not so pretty ladies on the cover .. andy warhol had others mass produce his work but just stamped his name on it .. other groups have everything written for them and only sing and look good on the cover .. aesthetically it would be nice if the BRAND was not tarnished .. but that is not a logical arguement with prince mind set .. he has already ruined a lot of his own music .. why not let those guys do the same if they want to?

I know people don't like criticizing Prince on here and they are all lucky that Prince picked them up, but there still isnt a single reason for them not to be able to use the original names