This is a "featured" topic! — From here you can jump to the « previous or next » featured topic.
New topic 
Printable I don't know the man so I can't really have an informed view, but based on the lyrics, my take on Prince's attitude to women is that it seems to be based on a patriarchal way of thinking/mentality. | |
- E-mail - orgNote -  Report post to moderator |
Interesting read, well-written... the fact that Prince always included women in his bands from the start was very inspiring to me. Not only as background singers/dancers (like most rock/pop acts), but women playing instruments! When compared to other groups from the 80s and to the present time, he's always been farther ahead in his willingness to feature women, and confront/deal with gender issues in a mostly positive way. we're like two petals from the same flower, baby... | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
ThreadBare said: I don't see how anyone familiar with Prince's music could confuse him with a feminist. The first half of his career was spent objectifying women sexually and dressing them in next to nothing while having them act out his sexual fantasies.
In more recent years, he has still constructed a world in which he exerts control over women -- this time through religious instruction (given, of course, by him). His statement about Solomon exemplifies this. He, in the end, wants to talk to a man who had countless wives and concubines. Not his first reference to Solomon, mind you ("Big Fun"). Again, the reference to Solomon seems less about an attempt to understand women as equals and more about reducing Solomon to a kind of pimp and his ability to "pull" that many women. To be fair, a lot of Prince's lyrics about women do talk about feelings and emotions (though many that do are about how Prince has been victimized somehow). Again, anyone who sees him as a feminist has been viewing Prince's career with one eye open and the other mostly cracked. Oh? bell hooks has spoken at length about Prince and his often female-empowering perspective, calling him "the only man I would ever go on a date with." Similarly, Naomi Wolfe, Kathy Acker, Ani DiFranco and other feminist icons have all expressed admiration towards Prince's slightly feminist attitude. Music is still very much a boys club, and with the exception of Kurt Cobain and the Beastie Boys how many male artists have ever espoused any feminist ideas? The point of the article is NOT to paint Prince as a feminist--which he clearly is not--but to acknowledge that he is quite the possibly the only male musical artist to even come within range of earning the title. Prince is the biggest contradiction in music--misogynistic and female-empowering at the same time. This is what fascinates us...and frustrates us. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
ThreadBare said: I don't see how anyone familiar with Prince's music could confuse him with a feminist. The first half of his career was spent objectifying women sexually and dressing them in next to nothing while having them act out his sexual fantasies.
In more recent years, he has still constructed a world in which he exerts control over women -- this time through religious instruction (given, of course, by him). His statement about Solomon exemplifies this. He, in the end, wants to talk to a man who had countless wives and concubines. Not his first reference to Solomon, mind you ("Big Fun"). Again, the reference to Solomon seems less about an attempt to understand women as equals and more about reducing Solomon to a kind of pimp and his ability to "pull" that many women. To be fair, a lot of Prince's lyrics about women do talk about feelings and emotions (though many that do are about how Prince has been victimized somehow). Again, anyone who sees him as a feminist has been viewing Prince's career with one eye open and the other mostly cracked. Very well said! I think Prince tries to have a better understanding of women through his music and he does champion great female musicians to his credit, but I 100% agree with you. Prince is a very controlling man when it comes to women because deep down he's an very insecure man. "Strange Relationship" says it all "I didn't like the way you were, so I had to make you mine". Even if he is talking religion...in the end the woman has to be what he thinks she should be. He's got that Madonna/ Whore complex Baaaaaddd! I think he totally objectifies women instead of dealing with them for who they really are. Great musician, great performer, he may even be a cool person on certain levels, but I'd never call him a feminist. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
ohmygodohmygod thank you for reminding me!!! i really have to look to see if i can find a copy of this mag here. i want to be able to hold it in my very own hands! but thanks for the scans meow!
 congratulations snakepeel very proud of you   She couldn't stop crying 'cause she knew he was gone to stay | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
SnakePeel said: ThreadBare said: I don't see how anyone familiar with Prince's music could confuse him with a feminist. The first half of his career was spent objectifying women sexually and dressing them in next to nothing while having them act out his sexual fantasies.
In more recent years, he has still constructed a world in which he exerts control over women -- this time through religious instruction (given, of course, by him). His statement about Solomon exemplifies this. He, in the end, wants to talk to a man who had countless wives and concubines. Not his first reference to Solomon, mind you ("Big Fun"). Again, the reference to Solomon seems less about an attempt to understand women as equals and more about reducing Solomon to a kind of pimp and his ability to "pull" that many women. To be fair, a lot of Prince's lyrics about women do talk about feelings and emotions (though many that do are about how Prince has been victimized somehow). Again, anyone who sees him as a feminist has been viewing Prince's career with one eye open and the other mostly cracked. Oh? bell hooks has spoken at length about Prince and his often female-empowering perspective, calling him "the only man I would ever go on a date with." Similarly, Naomi Wolfe, Kathy Acker, Ani DiFranco and other feminist icons have all expressed admiration towards Prince's slightly feminist attitude. Music is still very much a boys club, and with the exception of Kurt Cobain and the Beastie Boys how many male artists have ever espoused any feminist ideas? The point of the article is NOT to paint Prince as a feminist--which he clearly is not--but to acknowledge that he is quite the possibly the only male musical artist to even come within range of earning the title. Prince is the biggest contradiction in music--misogynistic and female-empowering at the same time. This is what fascinates us...and frustrates us. He's likely been very supportive to Ani, in that they've much in common as artists and instrumentalists. I think people do a disservice to real feminism when they stretch the label to make him out as a feminist. There's no way you could have such a consistently misogynist artist and make him out to be a feminist. It pays lipservice to the fight for gender equality, IMO, and dismisses all the energy Prince has put into objectifying women throughout his career. Even now, Prince the "feminist" has adopted an "old pimp" image in recent years. Glad he's encouraged female artists... but there's a larger picture. It's like saying Strom Thurmond's black daughter is proof of his long record of fighting for blacks' rights... | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
thanks for posting... 
meow85 said: One of the interesting features of this article to me is that it's written by a man.
Sorry about the quality of some of those scans, but it's the best I can do with my crappy machines. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
And, SnakePeel, congrats on the byline!!!  | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
A really interesting article. It's well thought out and one of the few factually accurate articles that I've read about the man. The only mis-step was the title of the song he did with Eve on the Rave album. That was "Hot with U" not "Undisputed". "Undisputed" was done with Chuck D. Overall however, I think the author researched this article very well. The inclusion of correct song lyrics and dates was a real plus. I think the piece is generally positive. It paints an honest picture of the complicated guy that Prince is. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
I've never heard "Good Pussy" - I'm gonna have to look into that one.  | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
TheJourney4all7 said: Awesome.
Bitch is a great, well-written, ad-free mag, so I'm definitely going to pick this up.Well, it's not quite ad-free. They support smaller businesses and companies. But it's corporate ad-free, and that's good enough. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
planetChar said: Interesting read, well-written... the fact that Prince always included women in his bands from the start was very inspiring to me. Not only as background singers/dancers (like most rock/pop acts), but women playing instruments! When compared to other groups from the 80s and to the present time, he's always been farther ahead in his willingness to feature women, and confront/deal with gender issues in a mostly positive way.
That's a rarity, even now. There are relatively few female musicians, and even fewer of those that there are are taken seriously. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
SnakePeel said: ThreadBare said: I don't see how anyone familiar with Prince's music could confuse him with a feminist. The first half of his career was spent objectifying women sexually and dressing them in next to nothing while having them act out his sexual fantasies.
In more recent years, he has still constructed a world in which he exerts control over women -- this time through religious instruction (given, of course, by him). His statement about Solomon exemplifies this. He, in the end, wants to talk to a man who had countless wives and concubines. Not his first reference to Solomon, mind you ("Big Fun"). Again, the reference to Solomon seems less about an attempt to understand women as equals and more about reducing Solomon to a kind of pimp and his ability to "pull" that many women. To be fair, a lot of Prince's lyrics about women do talk about feelings and emotions (though many that do are about how Prince has been victimized somehow). Again, anyone who sees him as a feminist has been viewing Prince's career with one eye open and the other mostly cracked. Oh? bell hooks has spoken at length about Prince and his often female-empowering perspective, calling him "the only man I would ever go on a date with." Similarly, Naomi Wolfe, Kathy Acker, Ani DiFranco and other feminist icons have all expressed admiration towards Prince's slightly feminist attitude. Music is still very much a boys club, and with the exception of Kurt Cobain and the Beastie Boys how many male artists have ever espoused any feminist ideas? The point of the article is NOT to paint Prince as a feminist--which he clearly is not--but to acknowledge that he is quite the possibly the only male musical artist to even come within range of earning the title. Prince is the biggest contradiction in music--misogynistic and female-empowering at the same time. This is what fascinates us...and frustrates us. 
Can any of us imagine what Prince would be like without his contradictions and hypocrisies? It wouldn't just be his persona that would be different, his music wouldn't be the same either. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
steelyd said: ThreadBare said: I don't see how anyone familiar with Prince's music could confuse him with a feminist. The first half of his career was spent objectifying women sexually and dressing them in next to nothing while having them act out his sexual fantasies.
In more recent years, he has still constructed a world in which he exerts control over women -- this time through religious instruction (given, of course, by him). His statement about Solomon exemplifies this. He, in the end, wants to talk to a man who had countless wives and concubines. Not his first reference to Solomon, mind you ("Big Fun"). Again, the reference to Solomon seems less about an attempt to understand women as equals and more about reducing Solomon to a kind of pimp and his ability to "pull" that many women. To be fair, a lot of Prince's lyrics about women do talk about feelings and emotions (though many that do are about how Prince has been victimized somehow). Again, anyone who sees him as a feminist has been viewing Prince's career with one eye open and the other mostly cracked. Very well said! I think Prince tries to have a better understanding of women through his music and he does champion great female musicians to his credit, but I 100% agree with you. Prince is a very controlling man when it comes to women because deep down he's an very insecure man. "Strange Relationship" says it all "I didn't like the way you were, so I had to make you mine". Even if he is talking religion...in the end the woman has to be what he thinks she should be. He's got that Madonna/ Whore complex Baaaaaddd! I think he totally objectifies women instead of dealing with them for who they really are. Great musician, great performer, he may even be a cool person on certain levels, but I'd never call him a feminist. He definitely does that, but I don't think hsi controlling behaviour is limited to women. Various men he's worked or associated with say the exact same things about him that the women have -that he picks and controls your music, your clothes, your appearance, your public persona, even your name. He definitely does strike me as controlling to mask his insecurity, but it'd be a mistake IMO to suggest he's only treating women this way. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
When Beyonce came to Moscow last October she had an all-female band - a refreshing change...
meow85 said: planetChar said: Interesting read, well-written... the fact that Prince always included women in his bands from the start was very inspiring to me. Not only as background singers/dancers (like most rock/pop acts), but women playing instruments! When compared to other groups from the 80s and to the present time, he's always been farther ahead in his willingness to feature women, and confront/deal with gender issues in a mostly positive way.
That's a rarity, even now. There are relatively few female musicians, and even fewer of those that there are are taken seriously. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
meow85 said: steelyd said: Very well said! I think Prince tries to have a better understanding of women through his music and he does champion great female musicians to his credit, but I 100% agree with you. Prince is a very controlling man when it comes to women because deep down he's an very insecure man. "Strange Relationship" says it all "I didn't like the way you were, so I had to make you mine". Even if he is talking religion...in the end the woman has to be what he thinks she should be. He's got that Madonna/ Whore complex Baaaaaddd! I think he totally objectifies women instead of dealing with them for who they really are. Great musician, great performer, he may even be a cool person on certain levels, but I'd never call him a feminist. He definitely does that, but I don't think hsi controlling behaviour is limited to women. Various men he's worked or associated with say the exact same things about him that the women have -that he picks and controls your music, your clothes, your appearance, your public persona, even your name. He definitely does strike me as controlling to mask his insecurity, but it'd be a mistake IMO to suggest he's only treating women this way. I agree with that, he definitely exhibits that controlling aspect of his personality when your in his employ. I know stories of how he's mistreated various band members. People were turning to Jesus after they left him. He let's his women get closer though. There is a whole other level to his control when intimacy is involved. Prince never married a man, got him pregnant, had a baby with a man with birth defects, has the baby die, then forces the man to go on national television in front of millions of people, make the man tell the world that everything is fine, then essentially dump the man for not being perfect. Prince never got engaged to a man, then paraded 3 or 4 other men in front of him and expected him NOT to say anything.....I'm being silly, but catch my drift. I do agree with you though. You have to be tough to deal with him. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
steelyd said: meow85 said: He definitely does that, but I don't think hsi controlling behaviour is limited to women. Various men he's worked or associated with say the exact same things about him that the women have -that he picks and controls your music, your clothes, your appearance, your public persona, even your name. He definitely does strike me as controlling to mask his insecurity, but it'd be a mistake IMO to suggest he's only treating women this way. I agree with that, he definitely exhibits that controlling aspect of his personality when your in his employ. I know stories of how he's mistreated various band members. People were turning to Jesus after they left him. He let's his women get closer though. There is a whole other level to his control when intimacy is involved. Prince never married a man, got him pregnant, had a baby with a man with birth defects, has the baby die, then forces the man to go on national television in front of millions of people, make the man tell the world that everything is fine, then essentially dump the man for not being perfect. Prince never got engaged to a man, then paraded 3 or 4 other men in front of him and expected him NOT to say anything.....I'm being silly, but catch my drift. I do agree with you though. You have to be tough to deal with him. Prince just strikes me as someone best kept at a distance; a person who, while interesting, not someone to tangle yourself with. He does however, strike me as having a genuine respect and admiration for women -it's just that his more unpleasant personality traits take over and he unleashes his inner control freak. The difference between his treatment of men and women as far as I can see, is dependent on the level of intimacy. We don't see exactly the same behaviour with men because he's never, as you said, been in a relationship with a man -publicly, anyway. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Fantastic article, Snakepeel. It was good to see Prince's more feminine-friendly side being praised.
Yes, Prince has a "mysoginist" side, but as others have stated, he is controlling with everyone who works with him in any level beyond casual friends. In many ways, Prince's music always shows his inner-struggle. His Spiritual vs. Sexual theme ran throughout his early work, finding a sort of reconciliation in his late-80's, early 90's albums. Similarly, his desire to understand women on their level is often at odds with his desire to be the pimp of the year.For a musician like Prince, he expresses everything he feels through his music, and this can lead to some clashing viewpoints in his body of work. Even the film, Purple Rain, shows this. He is a controlling dick to women, who eventually hits his woman in the same way that his abusive father hit his mother. He frequently is a total ass to Wendy and Lisa, putting the lid on their creative endeavours. Of course, his father's suicide attempt winds up being an epiphany of sorts, with him realizing that the path he is on is a destructive one. The film ends with him playing his female bandmates songs, with lyrics that are genuinly heartfelt in their apology towards his girlfriend. I think Prince is an artist who is constantly struggling with himself,with two incredibly contradictory natures constantly clashing internally. It would be easy to just dismiss him as a hypocrit, but it is much more complex than that. His inner-battles are displayed through his musical output, leaving us with baffling contradictions. 
Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones. (Ecclesiastes 7:9) | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
i am just getting around to reading that and it is AMAZING. Great article!
Well said Jedi - I agree! | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
This is one of the many reasons why Prince is such an interesting artist and person to me. I've written an essay dealing with this issue, among other things. It's not nearly as good as this article though. Thanks for posting it!
And I agree with Jedi, good post! [Edited 8/2/08 15:37pm] | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
I enjoyed that article, thanks! | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
steelyd said: ThreadBare said: I don't see how anyone familiar with Prince's music could confuse him with a feminist. The first half of his career was spent objectifying women sexually and dressing them in next to nothing while having them act out his sexual fantasies.
In more recent years, he has still constructed a world in which he exerts control over women -- this time through religious instruction (given, of course, by him). His statement about Solomon exemplifies this. He, in the end, wants to talk to a man who had countless wives and concubines. Not his first reference to Solomon, mind you ("Big Fun"). Again, the reference to Solomon seems less about an attempt to understand women as equals and more about reducing Solomon to a kind of pimp and his ability to "pull" that many women. To be fair, a lot of Prince's lyrics about women do talk about feelings and emotions (though many that do are about how Prince has been victimized somehow). Again, anyone who sees him as a feminist has been viewing Prince's career with one eye open and the other mostly cracked. Very well said! I think Prince tries to have a better understanding of women through his music and he does champion great female musicians to his credit, but I 100% agree with you. Prince is a very controlling man when it comes to women because deep down he's an very insecure man. "Strange Relationship" says it all "I didn't like the way you were, so I had to make you mine". Even if he is talking religion...in the end the woman has to be what he thinks she should be. He's got that Madonna/ Whore complex Baaaaaddd! I think he totally objectifies women instead of dealing with them for who they really are. Great musician, great performer, he may even be a cool person on certain levels, but I'd never call him a feminist. Goog Swap here guys. To add to it, no matter your opinion on this article perspective, Prince as a mysogonist/feminist or men in general, let's not 4get that women play a large role in how they are perceived and treated by men particulary a man like Prince and this so called music industry. The majority of Prince's fans have and will always will be women because he brings the raw sensuality in such a way that we appreciate and get off on it. Prince is the only male artist that can make the term Bitch seem like a compliment (irrisistible definitely). All the women who've left his entourage to forge their own careers carried on the sexual aura proudly. Heck Wendy and Lisa showed just as much skin when they left Prince as when they were by his side! I've never found his music demeaning to women or an admission to controlling women and he has always struck me as someone dealing with his inner caveman. He plays tit for tat with the whole putting women on a pedastel and viewing them as equals. None of the women he's worked with have ever insinuated that he mistreated them or viewed them simply as objects or arm candy and if anything his musics suggests that women have a lot of control over him which he digs! As for that madonna/whore complex. Shit women invented that! Men just gave it name. The same women shouting Aretha's respect are the very ones trying to get backstage or on the tour bus, trying to assess the man's net worth and subsequent worthiness, wear skimpy ass clothes and complain about being objectified, and cry preggers so their men won't leave them. We got the power but often misuse it. We hate the players when we should hate the game! Nobody plays look but don't touch better than we.  [Edited 8/3/08 0:08am] | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
meow85 said: Sorry about the quality of some of those scans, but it's the best I can do with my crappy machines.
Actually I really appreciate that you did that. I don't know where I would be able to track down a copy of Bitch magazine. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Prince has a song called "Good Pussy"? 
That's what page one of this article says. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
BITCH magazine? What a funny article!   wish U were here baby, on me--
Stuck like glue!  | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
|
i really enjoyed reading that. loved the illustration too! I thought u liked eggs. I thought u liked me. |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
New topic Printable This is a "featured" topic! — From here you can jump to the « previous or next » featured topic.