namepeace said:

RodeoSchro said:

The Bulls WITH Michael Jordan had a losing record against the Rockets for the entirety of Jordan's career. The Bulls WITHOUT Jordan would not have stood a scintilla of a chance beating the Rockets for the NBA title.

I know you're a homer, RS, but here's where stats are tricky things. You rightly qualified the first part of your post. The next post isn't supported if you look at the head to head matchup data I found, which you yourself cite.

In Jordan's early career (84-86) the Rockets were 5-1 v. the Bulls, including the year (1985) where Jordan missed most of the season.

In the next several years after (87-90), after Pip and Ho Grant joined the team, the Bulls went 4-4 v. HOU.

During the 1st title run (91-93), HOU was an impressive 5-1 against the champs, including 2 sweeps in 1991 and 1993.

WITHOUT MJ (94-95), the Bulls played HOU even -- 2-2 (Jordan may have played one of those games).

During the 2d title run (96-98), including a nearly back-to-back 70-win run in 96-97?
went 5-1 against the once-back-to-back champs in Houston.

What does that tell you (assuming data is accurate)?

- The Rockets were a really good team that whole time.

- The Rockets dominated the Bulls when MJ had little or no help.

- The Rockets proved their abilities against the Jordans prior to and during the first run (strengthening your arguments).

- Between the first and second threepeat runs, the Bulls played the Rockets EVEN (undercutting your "scintilla" argument).

- The Rockets COULDN'T SEE THE BEST BULLS TEAMS, during the second run (undercutting your "losing record" argument).

(Stats from interbasket.com)

I guess to narrow it down, you could see which team the Rockets would have played in the '94 championship, and the '95 championship. Would it have been the team the Rockets used up in '91 - '93? Or would it have been the later '96 - '98 team that had a better record against the Rockets?

Regardless, I don't think anyone in the world would make an argument that the Bulls were a better team without Michael Jordan.

RodeoSchro said:

Regardless, I don't think anyone in the world would make an argument that the Bulls were a better team without Michael Jordan.

...but nobody in this thread is making that crazily uninformed and untenable argument.
Uptown said Pippen's Bulls may have defeated the Rockets, not that the Pippens were a
better team without Jordan.

Anyways, I'm not sure I agree with Uptown - Pippen could be pouty and wasn't a great leader.
Remember when he sat out the last play because Jackson asked Kukoc to take the last shot in
a playoff game?

duccichucka said:

RodeoSchro said:

Regardless, I don't think anyone in the world would make an argument that the Bulls were a better team without Michael Jordan.

...but nobody in this thread is making that crazily uninformed and untenable argument.
Uptown said Pippen's Bulls may have defeated the Rockets, not that the Pippens were a
better team without Jordan.

Anyways, I'm not sure I agree with Uptown - Pippen could be pouty and wasn't a great leader.
Remember when he sat out the last play because Jackson asked Kukoc to take the last shot in
a playoff game?

I sure do. Pippen is a quitter. When times got tough, and he didn't get his way, he quit on his team.

That's his true character right there.

RodeoSchro said:

duccichucka said:

...but nobody in this thread is making that crazily uninformed and untenable argument.
Uptown said Pippen's Bulls may have defeated the Rockets, not that the Pippens were a
better team without Jordan.

Anyways, I'm not sure I agree with Uptown - Pippen could be pouty and wasn't a great leader.
Remember when he sat out the last play because Jackson asked Kukoc to take the last shot in
a playoff game?

I sure do. Pippen is a quitter. When times got tough, and he didn't get his way, he quit on his team.

That's his true character right there.

I don't know if I'd be that rough on him, but yeah, I guess playing with Jordan made Pippen
a much better player. But again: Jordan does not win a single ring without the aid of Pippen.

RodeoSchro said:

namepeace said:

I know you're a homer, RS, but here's where stats are tricky things. You rightly qualified the first part of your post. The next post isn't supported if you look at the head to head matchup data I found, which you yourself cite.

In Jordan's early career (84-86) the Rockets were 5-1 v. the Bulls, including the year (1985) where Jordan missed most of the season.

In the next several years after (87-90), after Pip and Ho Grant joined the team, the Bulls went 4-4 v. HOU.

During the 1st title run (91-93), HOU was an impressive 5-1 against the champs, including 2 sweeps in 1991 and 1993.

WITHOUT MJ (94-95), the Bulls played HOU even -- 2-2 (Jordan may have played one of those games).

During the 2d title run (96-98), including a nearly back-to-back 70-win run in 96-97?
went 5-1 against the once-back-to-back champs in Houston.

- The Rockets proved their abilities against the Jordans prior to and during the first run (strengthening your arguments).

- Between the first and second threepeat runs, the Bulls played the Rockets EVEN (undercutting your "scintilla" argument).

- The Rockets COULDN'T SEE THE BEST BULLS TEAMS, during the second run (undercutting your "losing record" argument).

(Stats from interbasket.com)

I guess to narrow it down, you could see which team the Rockets would have played in the '94 championship, and the '95 championship. Would it have been the team the Rockets used up in '91 - '93? Or would it have been the later '96 - '98 team that had a better record against the Rockets?

that's what I did -- the 1994 and 1995 teams were the Jordan-less teams (well, in 95 MJ came back like in March or April and wasn't in form and ORL beat them). The Rockets and Bulls played 4 times in that time and each team won 2. At least 3 of those games were without MJ. If the NY took HOU to 7 in 94, I think CHI would have too. I would have loved to see Horry and Pip go at it.

But matching the Rockets' best team (IMO, the 1994 team) against the Bulls' best team (the 1996 team), CHI wins.


Regardless, I don't think anyone in the world would make an argument that the Bulls were a better team without Michael Jordan.


But as said above, no one's made that argument.

namepeace said:

But matching the Rockets' best team (IMO, the 1994 team) against the Bulls' best team (the 1996 team), CHI wins.

What makes you think so? Can Longley or Wennington match up with Olajuwon? But I just
wanna throw this name into the mix as an X-factor involving this particular match up:

Dennis Rodman.

And I count 8 bona fide scrubs on that '94 Rockets team; 5 or 6 on the Bulls. This doesn't
mean much, but just sayin' I'd like your or anyone's take on this.

duccichucka said:

namepeace said:

What makes you think so? Can Longley or Wennington match up with Olajuwon?

They had Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. Olus sufficient outside shooting and defense from the supporting cast to neutralize or negate teams with size. They beat numerous teams with strong pivots during both title runs, but in 1996 the Bulls beat Ewing's Knicks and Shaq's Magic en route to the Finals. They'd have a tougher time with HOU.
But I just wanna throw this name into the mix as an X-factor involving this particular match up:

Dennis Rodman.

One of the best low post defenders and rebounders in history. That's why I take 96 CHI over 94 HOU every day, all day.

And I count 8 bona fide scrubs on that '94 Rockets team; 5 or 6 on the Bulls. This doesn't mean much, but just sayin' I'd like your or anyone's take on this.

I could see that. The supporting casts strengths and weaknesses cancel each other out to a degree. Both had shooters (Kerr, Cassell, Jet), both had some muscle (Longley, Thorpe), both had an athletic wingman with range (Pippen, Horry). But HOU didn't really have a guy like Rodman who could defend up to 3 positions on the floor, and HOU didn't have Michael Jordan.

namepeace said:

duccichucka said:

What makes you think so? Can Longley or Wennington match up with Olajuwon?

They had Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. Olus sufficient outside shooting and defense from the supporting cast to neutralize or negate teams with size. They beat numerous teams with strong pivots during both title runs, but in 1996 the Bulls beat Ewing's Knicks and Shaq's Magic en route to the Finals. They'd have a tougher time with HOU.
But I just wanna throw this name into the mix as an X-factor involving this particular match up:

Dennis Rodman.

One of the best low post defenders and rebounders in history. That's why I take 96 CHI over 94 HOU every day, all day.

And I count 8 bona fide scrubs on that '94 Rockets team; 5 or 6 on the Bulls. This doesn't mean much, but just sayin' I'd like your or anyone's take on this.

I could see that. The supporting casts strengths and weaknesses cancel each other out to a degree. Both had shooters (Kerr, Cassell, Jet), both had some muscle (Longley, Thorpe), both had an athletic wingman with range (Pippen, Horry). But HOU didn't really have a guy like Rodman who could defend up to 3 positions on the floor, and HOU didn't have Michael Jordan.

No mention of Toni Kukoc and Ron Harper.

The Bulls would have run Houston out of the gym.

Graycap23 said:

namepeace said:

No mention of Toni Kukoc and Ron Harper.

The Bulls would have run Houston out of the gym.

I was thinking that Maxwell would cancel out Harper and that Kukoc could be canceled out
by Thorpe. I may be wrong on the latter, but I'm sure Harper and Maxwell were probably
the same type of player with the same skill sets (strong defense, above average offensively).

namepeace said:

duccichucka said:

What makes you think so? Can Longley or Wennington match up with Olajuwon?

They had Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. Olus sufficient outside shooting and defense from the supporting cast to neutralize or negate teams with size. They beat numerous teams with strong pivots during both title runs, but in 1996 the Bulls beat Ewing's Knicks and Shaq's Magic en route to the Finals. They'd have a tougher time with HOU.
But I just wanna throw this name into the mix as an X-factor involving this particular match up:

Dennis Rodman.

One of the best low post defenders and rebounders in history. That's why I take 96 CHI over 94 HOU every day, all day.

And I count 8 bona fide scrubs on that '94 Rockets team; 5 or 6 on the Bulls. This doesn't mean much, but just sayin' I'd like your or anyone's take on this.

I could see that. The supporting casts strengths and weaknesses cancel each other out to a degree. Both had shooters (Kerr, Cassell, Jet), both had some muscle (Longley, Thorpe), both had an athletic wingman with range (Pippen, Horry). But HOU didn't really have a guy like Rodman who could defend up to 3 positions on the floor, and HOU didn't have Michael Jordan.

Yes. With Rodman (and obviously Jordan whose mental toughness, although impossible to
quantify, but so evident), Houston would get beat in a series between the two super teams.

Is there anybody who defended Shaq better than Rodman, or am I mistaken that Rodman
handled Shaq admirably?

duccichucka said:

Graycap23 said:

No mention of Toni Kukoc and Ron Harper.

The Bulls would have run Houston out of the gym.

I was thinking that Maxwell would cancel out Harper and that Kukoc could be canceled out
by Thorpe. I may be wrong on the latter, but I'm sure Harper and Maxwell were probably
the same type of player with the same skill sets (strong defense, above average offensively).

But they had no one who could cancel Mj.........look what Mj did to Drexler when they played Portland.

Graycap23 said:

duccichucka said:

I was thinking that Maxwell would cancel out Harper and that Kukoc could be canceled out
by Thorpe. I may be wrong on the latter, but I'm sure Harper and Maxwell were probably
the same type of player with the same skill sets (strong defense, above average offensively).

But they had no one who could cancel Mj.........look what Mj did to Drexler when they played Portland.

Oh, most definitely! There's no argument there. I said as much to Namepeace just a second
ago. With Rodman, and definitely with Jordan, that '94 Houston team loses a seven game
series against the '96 Bulls - I'm thinking 4-1 or 4-2. Without Rodman, I think it could be really,
really difficult for the Bulls to pull it out, but eventually I believe they could, 4-3.

Graycap23 said

No mention of Toni Kukoc and Ron Harper.

The Bulls would have run Houston out of the gym.

until now . . .

as to ducci's point . . . I don't think Thorpe had the quickness to run with Kukoc, who could actually handle the ball, run the floor, and defend okay.

namepeace said:

Graycap23 said

No mention of Toni Kukoc and Ron Harper.

The Bulls would have run Houston out of the gym.

until now . . .

as to ducci's point . . . I don't think Thorpe had the quickness to run with Kukoc, who could actually handle the ball, run the floor, and defend okay.

Yes sir.

duccichucka said:

Is there anybody who defended Shaq better than Rodman, or am I mistaken that Rodman handled Shaq admirably?

Barkley held his own.

Yao couldn't do much with Shaq but IIRC his length was an issue.

Olajuwon's best D against Shaq was a good offense.

Sabonis, who could have been an All-Star had he played in his prime here, defended Shaq better than many if not most.

But Rodman is the first to come to mind for best Shaq defender in the post (the 96 Bulls beat Shaq's last Orlando team decisively in the playoffs)..

namepeace said:

duccichucka said:

Is there anybody who defended Shaq better than Rodman, or am I mistaken that Rodman handled Shaq admirably?

Barkley held his own.

. . . and that was probably on sheer mental toughness and a "fuck you, Shaq" attitude alone as
Barkley wasn't taller than 6'5, maybe 6'6 in sneaks while O'Neal was a true 7' footer.