Graycap23 said:

TonyVanDam said:

Hence why the Montana VS. Brady debates are still ongoing even in 2015. Both QBs had better teammates. Both QBs had masterminded head coaches.

Elway was damn near a one man team.

If Elway dons a Niners jersey -- and Walsh reportedly wanted him - we're not having the same conversation about Elway, Montana, Young, or for that matter, Brady.

namepeace said:

Graycap23 said:

Elway was damn near a one man team.

If Elway dons a Niners jersey -- and Walsh reportedly wanted him - we're not having the same conversation about Elway, Montana, Young, or for that matter, Brady.

No doubt about that.

Graycap23 said:

TonyVanDam said:

Hence why the Montana VS. Brady debates are still ongoing even in 2015. Both QBs had better teammates. Both QBs had masterminded head coaches.

Elway was damn near a one man team.

Elway took mediocre teams to Super Bowls, yet he was labeled a "loser" because he lost to the more dominant NFC teams. All the haters shut up once Elway hooked up with Terrell Davis and a real defense.

Now, as far as a pure thrower of the ball, there was no one like Marino, NO ONE.

uPtoWnNY said:

Graycap23 said:

Elway was damn near a one man team.

Elway took mediocre teams to Super Bowls, yet he was labeled a "loser" because he lost to the more dominant NFC teams. All the haters shut up once Elway hooked up with Terrell Davis and a real defense.

Now, as far as a pure thrower of the ball, there was no one like Marino, NO ONE.

Elway could run, throw and block.

namepeace said:

Graycap23 said:

Elway was damn near a one man team.

If Elway dons a Niners jersey -- and Walsh reportedly wanted him - we're not having the same conversation about Elway, Montana, Young, or for that matter, Brady.

No kidding. John Elway would've had 6 SuperBowls rings!

uPtoWnNY said:

Graycap23 said:

Elway was damn near a one man team.

Elway took mediocre teams to Super Bowls, yet he was labeled a "loser" because he lost to the more dominant NFC teams. All the haters shut up once Elway hooked up with Terrell Davis and a real defense.

Now, as far as a pure thrower of the ball, there was no one like Marino, NO ONE.

Of course, we always knew then as well as now that defense wins the championship.

TonyVanDam said:

namepeace said:

If Elway dons a Niners jersey -- and Walsh reportedly wanted him - we're not having the same conversation about Elway, Montana, Young, or for that matter, Brady.

No kidding. John Elway would've had 6 SuperBowls rings!

He got to 5 and won 2. But with Joe's weapons and the defenses the Niners put on the field, no telling how many Elway would have gotten!

Just canvassing the responses, it appears that the Org's football fans would take Elway and Montana at the top, in that order, and Brady would fall somewhere above or between some of the greats of the pre-Super Bowl eras, and Terry Bradshaw.

BobGeorge909 said:

Wilt Chamberlain!

The best I've ever seen is Elway (this is coming from a life-long Raiders fan). Joe Montana is a close second and Aaron Rogers is one who could possibly surpass them all.

Guys like Marino and Peyton Manning were great but weren't as versatile and if I had a game on the line I want Elway or Montana under center.

whodknee said:

The best I've ever seen is Elway (this is coming from a life-long Raiders fan). Joe Montana is a close second and Aaron Rogers is one who could possibly surpass them all.

Guys like Marino and Peyton Manning were great but weren't as versatile and if I had a game on the line I want Elway or Montana under center.

Marino didn't need to be versatile. He just needed a defense. All Marino had to do was

cock and fire that gun. No theatrics needed.

Terry Bradshaw

Ben Roethlisberger

phunkdaddy said:

whodknee said:

The best I've ever seen is Elway (this is coming from a life-long Raiders fan). Joe Montana is a close second and Aaron Rogers is one who could possibly surpass them all.

Guys like Marino and Peyton Manning were great but weren't as versatile and if I had a game on the line I want Elway or Montana under center.

Marino didn't need to be versatile. He just needed a defense. All Marino had to do was

cock and fire that gun. No theatrics needed.

??

Graycap23 said:

phunkdaddy said:

Marino didn't need to be versatile. He just needed a defense. All Marino had to do was

cock and fire that gun. No theatrics needed.

??

Are you talking about Marino's fake spike touchdown against the Jets??

phunkdaddy said:

whodknee said:

The best I've ever seen is Elway (this is coming from a life-long Raiders fan). Joe Montana is a close second and Aaron Rogers is one who could possibly surpass them all.

Guys like Marino and Peyton Manning were great but weren't as versatile and if I had a game on the line I want Elway or Montana under center.

Marino didn't need to be versatile. He just needed a defense. All Marino had to do was

cock and fire that gun. No theatrics needed.

Sometimes a play breaks down. When that happens the best QBs can buy time. Elway, Rogers and, to a lesser degree, Montana could do that without sacrificing the ability to make good throws.

whodknee said:

PurpleJedi said:

phunkdaddy said:

whodknee said:

Sometimes a play breaks down. When that happens the best QBs can buy time. Elway, Rogers and, to a lesser degree, Montana could do that without sacrificing the ability to make good throws.

I get that but Marino didn't have to roll out and make throws across the field. He had the deadliest arm in the game during his prime. He made the Marks brothers and damn near any receiver he played with. No qb in the game had a deadly arm like Marino. Had he won a Super Bowl or two he may have been on the list of Mt Rushmore qb's .

TRUTH

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phunkdaddy said:

whodknee said:

The best I've ever seen is Elway (this is coming from a life-long Raiders fan). Joe Montana is a close second and Aaron Rogers is one who could possibly surpass them all.

Guys like Marino and Peyton Manning were great but weren't as versatile and if I had a game on the line I want Elway or Montana under center.

Marino didn't need to be versatile. He just needed a defense. All Marino had to do was

cock and fire that gun. No theatrics needed.

Well, for the balance of his career he didn't have a defense, and could have really used a running game.

namepeace said:

phunkdaddy said:

Marino didn't need to be versatile. He just needed a defense. All Marino had to do was

cock and fire that gun. No theatrics needed.

Well, for the balance of his career he didn't have a defense, and could have really used a running game.

Imagine if he had a Terrell Davis like Elway did late in his career.

As a Bills fan I'd love to say Jim Kelly

...but its gotta be Brady...no one I know has been that good for that long a time. Consistently brilliant for the longest time, and still not done yet!

uPtoWnNY said:

namepeace said:

Well, for the balance of his career he didn't have a defense, and could have really used a running game.

Imagine if he had a Terrell Davis like Elway did late in his career.

TD, along with John Lynch and other key figures on defense.

But I wonder whether Marino would have deferred to a running game late in his career. Probably, but still.

DaveT said:

As a Bills fan I'd love to say Jim Kelly

...but its gotta be Brady...no one I know has been that good for that long a time. Consistently brilliant for the longest time, and still not done yet!

Yet another QB who really didn't have a title-caliber defense to get the stops needed to win a Super Bowl.

Brady's longevity makes a good case for him.

The greatest quarterback I've seen is Joe Montana. Brady is second best. Everybody else is an
also-ran. Now, as far as overrated goes, we all know the usual suspects: Joe Namath, Troy Aikman,
Terry Bradshaw.

Contrary to public opinion, John Elway may be one of the most overrated QBs of all time. He never
passed for more than 28 TDs in a year. He averaged 19 TD passes a year against 14 INTs a year
as well (that's not a "great" ratio, in my opinion) during his 16 seasons in the NFL. Elway lead the
league in passing only once - in 1993. His passer rating was beneath 80%. He was disastrous in
three Super Bowls. His completion rate was beneath 60%. Speaking of being a disaster in the
big game, Elway, in five games, had a 50% completion rating, 3 TDs against 8 INTs and a quarter-
back/passer rating at beneath 60% with a 2-3 record.

Sure, dude had a cannon, could scramble, and had some sexy comebacks. But his inclusion as one
of the greatest of all time is certainly debatable at least. And the argument that Terrell Davis was
the reason why Elway won two rings could have some validity.

EDIT: I should add my source:

http://www.pro-football-r...waJo00.htm

[Edited 2/21/15 11:43am]

namepeace said:

Graycap23 said:

Elway was damn near a one man team.

If Elway dons a Niners jersey -- and Walsh reportedly wanted him - we're not having the same conversation about Elway, Montana, Young, or for that matter, Brady.

If you're suggesting that if you place Elway on the 49ers roster with Coach Walsh then he'd be a
more impactful player than he was (putatively), I think you and Gray are mistaken!

Elway was a superb athlete who played quarterback adequately (going by his stats). Joe Mon-
tana was an adequate athlete who place quarterback superbly. Again, if you look at his stats,
Elway's passer rating is sandwiched between Dan Fouts, Matt Cassel, and Tony Eason.

Yep, Tony fuckin' Eason! I think John Elway's late game heroics make him sexier than he is sta-
tistically and realistically. Now, passer rating isn't the sole indicator of how well a quarterback
plays. But it is a good indicator nonetheless! And remember, Joe Montana's first two Super
Bowls found him passing to dudes like Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon, not Jerry Rice and John
Taylor, and Brent Jones. And as far as a rushing attack goes, Montana's first two Super Bowls,
found him handing off to Wendell Tyler for the first game and and Roger Craig (who was to
become a beast later) for the second one, so it's not like he was stacked with a great running
game either. In other words, Montana basically had the same level of talent for his first two
Super Bowl wins that John Elway had for his first three Super Bowl losses. This is when you also
include coaching system as well, where Montana clearly has an advantage (Walsh) over Elway
(Reeves). Walsh is the only genius in NFL history, if you ask me (and the first de-segregationist
as well, another reason why my family rooted for the 49ers back in the day and still do).

So the argument that you switch quarterbacks and get the same results doesn't hold all the
way!

Source: http://www.pro-football-r...career.htm

namepeace said:

phunkdaddy said:

Marino didn't need to be versatile. He just needed a defense. All Marino had to do was

cock and fire that gun. No theatrics needed.

Well, for the balance of his career he didn't have a defense, and could have really used a running game.

Is this the case, though?

I ask this question because Tom Brady wins despite not having a great running game nor a
legendary defense. For example, in the years that Tom Brady has either ventured to the Super
Bowl or won it, where did his team rank in terms of rushing and defense? I don't think he ever
had a team that had a rushing attack in the top ten while having a defense in the top ten
simultaneously.

This year, the Patriots' defense was ranked 8th. Their running game was ranked 18th. This
information makes me wonder if that historical argument (Marino needed a running game and a
defense) actually holds.


EDIT:

In '84, the season the Dolphins went to the Super Bowl, their running game was ranked 16th
while their defense was ranked 7th, so there goes that argument about what Marino needed
to win in order to grab a ring.

[Edited 2/21/15 12:37pm]

[Edited 2/21/15 13:31pm]

duccichucka said:

namepeace said:

Well, for the balance of his career he didn't have a defense, and could have really used a running game.

Is this the case, though?

I ask this question because Tom Brady wins despite not having a great running game nor a
legendary defense. For example, in the years that Tom Brady has either ventured to the Super
Bowl or won it, where did his team rank in terms of rushing and defense? I don't think he ever
had a team that had a rushing attack in the top ten while having a defense in the top ten
simultaneously.

This year, the Patriots' defense was ranked 8th. Their running game was ranked 18th. This
information makes me wonder if that historical argument (Marino needed a running game and a
defense) actually holds.


EDIT:

In '84, the season the Dolphins went to the Super Bowl, their running game was ranked 16th
while their defense was ranked 7th, so there goes that argument about what Marino needed
to win in order to grab a ring.

[Edited 2/21/15 12:37pm]

[Edited 2/21/15 13:31pm]

Sorry Charlie. You just happened to pick Marino's 2nd year in the league and one Super Bowl

appearance to make a point about Miami's defense. That's the same defense that gave up 28 points to a Steelers team in the AFC title game quarterbacked by fucking Mark Malone. No wonder the 49ers lit them up in the Super Bowl for 38 points. The only reason the Steelers made it that far was because of defense and a running game(despite Tom Selleck) so those ingredients with a good qb usually is a good recipe for success. Miami's defense was mediocre for most of Marino's

tenure. They became good again around 1990-1992 when they lost the 1992 AFC title at home to Buffalo. Defensive numbers can be skewed but anyone that knows football knows the Dolphins defense was mediocre at best throughout much of Marino's career. I have a homie that's a Dolphins fan. He would even tell you. He used to always talk about how weak the Blackwood brothers were in the defensive backfield. They would hit the shit out of you but couldn't cover their

own teammate Jim Jensen's shadow. Look at the Dolphins playoff history during that time that

included a 38-3 loss to Denver, 29-10 to Buffalo and who the hell can ever forget the Jimmy Johnson coached 62-7 loss to Jacksonville.

As for Brady his offense never revolved around having a great rb for success. He did have

productive backs before Corey Dillon(no slouch), Antowain Smith, Laurence Maroney, and

the probably the best all purpose back in team history with Kevin Faulk.

Namath may have been overrated but I can't even dignify with an appropriate response that

Bradshaw and Troy Aikman were overrated. Their numbers in the big games prove otherwise.

Elway was definitely one of the best ever too.

phunkdaddy said:

Sorry Charlie. You just happened to pick Marino's 2nd year in the league and one Super Bowl

appearance to make a point about Miami's defense. That's the same defense that gave up 28 points to a Steelers team in the AFC title game quarterbacked by fucking Mark Malone. No wonder the 49ers lit them up in the Super Bowl for 38 points. The only reason the Steelers made it that far was because of defense and a running game(despite Tom Selleck) so those ingredients with a good qb usually is a good recipe for success. Miami's defense was mediocre for most of Marino's

tenure. They became good again around 1990-1992 when they lost the 1992 AFC title at home to Buffalo. Defensive numbers can be skewed but anyone that knows football knows the Dolphins defense was mediocre at best throughout much of Marino's career. I have a homie that's a Dolphins fan. He would even tell you. He used to always talk about how weak the Blackwood brothers were in the defensive backfield. They would hit the shit out of you but couldn't cover their

own teammate Jim Jensen's shadow. Look at the Dolphins playoff history during that time that

included a 38-3 loss to Denver, 29-10 to Buffalo and who the hell can ever forget the Jimmy Johnson coached 62-7 loss to Jacksonville.

As for Brady his offense never revolved around having a great rb for success. He did have

productive backs before Corey Dillon(no slouch), Antowain Smith, Laurence Maroney, and

the probably the best all purpose back in team history with Kevin Faulk.

Namath may have been overrated but I can't even dignify with an appropriate response that

Bradshaw and Troy Aikman were overrated. Their numbers in the big games prove otherwise.

Elway was definitely one of the best ever too.

I certainly didn't choose one of Marino's best years, arguably the year he went to the Super
Bowl as indicative of the average standing of his team defense for every year he played. If you
read my post carefully, you'll see that the point I was making was that Tom Brady won the Super
Bowl this year with a top ten defense (which Marino had in 1984) and a mediocre running game
(which Marino also had in 1984). Just comparing these two years, it seems that the entire argu-
ment that Marino never had a defense to win a championship game is false and that he NEEDED
a running game to win a championship game is unsound because the Patriots won this year with
a sucky-kinda rushing attack. The Miami Dolphins 1984 team defense was ranked 7th! This
means that he had a supporting cast around him defensively that was superior. The sole year
that Marino went to the Super Bowl, his team offense was ranked numero uno. Top ten defense
and top ten offense and he still lost? This means that "All Marino needed was a great defense
and a running game to go along with his offensive attack to win the Super Bowl" is unsound. He
had ALL of those things in 1984 and still didn't win! So, I don't need to assess every single year
that Marino went to the playoffs. I only need to assess the one year he had a top one ranked
offense and a top ten ranked defense with a decent running game while still losing the Super
Bowl to show that the argument that all he needed was a great defense and a running game
to win is false. The 1984 Miami Dolphins prove this.

I agree with your point about the Patriots not being founded upon a rushing offense, but your
point is superflous because I never claimed the Patriots was such an offense. My point in
bringing up the Pats' rushing offense was to make a point against the argument that Marino
needed a rushing game to win Super Bowls: "Well, if the Patriots don't need a running game to
win the Super Bowl, why did Marino/the Dolphins?" So your list of effective Pats' running backs is
kinda unnecessary, including your other references, even though it shows us you know your
stuff! And if you think about it, this part of your post strengthens my argument: you say that
Brady's offense never revolved around him having a great RB. This means that the offense did
revolve arounding a great QB. If Brady can win multiple Super Bowls with never having a great
rushing attack while being a great QB, why couldn't Marino do the same? And the answer is not
because of defense as it is a fact that Marino's 1984 team defense was ranked 7th; Brady's 2014
team defense was ranked 8th!

However, you're the typical sport fan for when you get evidence and stats that go against your
preconceived notions, you'll cling to your preconceived notions. You maintain that John Elway
was still one of the best QBs but you make no mention of how the information I provided about
his overratedness doesn't apply. How do you reconcile your notion that Elway is one of the best
with his career statistics? I see this all the time with my sport fan friends - they get it stuck in
their head about how legendary a certain player was because he was hyped in the media but
when you actually look at his numbers, he was mediocre or above average at best. If Elway's
passer rating is lower than Matt Cassel, that suggests he's more hype than anything else. If
anything, Elway is legendary because of his great fourth quarter comebacks. I remember
watching "The Drive" as a kid and being wowed the entire time. But if John Elway doesn't get his
hands on Terrell Davis, he NEVER wins a Super Bowl! Look at his Super Bowl numbers - they
suck! The fact that Elway does play with Davis, who peaked at the right moment, we include him
in the pantheon of great quarterbacks. But again, this inclusion is debatable as his 79% passer
rating suggests.

As for claiming that Aikman and Bradshaw are overrated passers, look at their numbers and stats
compared to Joe Montana and Tom Brady; comparatively, they just don't stack up. When I de-
bate sports, I use facts; that's why include sources in my posts. It looks like nobody here
in this thread have any facts to back up their opinion other than anecdotal evidence and fond
memories of nostalgia. So, show me why Aikman, Bradshaw, and Elway aren't overrated; let's
see the numbers, which never lie.

A quick look at Bradshaw's stats reveal that the overrated argument can be made:

52% completion rate (this is mediocre as a great completion rate is in the 60 percentile)

212 TDs to 210 INTs (this means that for every TD he threw, he threw a pick. This is an awful
TD to INT ratio, where we see the greats go 2:1)

He never lead the league in total passing (TDs thrown, most yards, etc.)

His passer rating is 71, which really, really sucks.

He did win one MVP.

He won two Super Bowl MVPs.

His Super Bowl stats are pretty good.

He threw for about 28, 000 yards. This isn't a knock against him because Bradshaw was the
typical "game manager" which meant he handed the ball off to Harris and the Steel Curtain would
shut it down defensively. In fourteen seasons, my source has Bradshaw's numbers ranked with
Donovan McNabb, Bob Griese, Jim Kelly, Drew Bledsoe, Boomer Esiason, Steve McNair, Mark
Brunell, Eli Manning, and Ben Roethlisberger. The only QB in that list who I would want starting
for my championship team would be "Big" Ben.

Finally, I glanced at Aikman's numbers too, and while I'm too lazy to compile them here to support
my argument that he's overrated, rest assured, the case can be made!

duccichucka said:

namepeace said:

Well, for the balance of his career he didn't have a defense, and could have really used a running game.

Is this the case, though?

I ask this question because Tom Brady wins despite not having a great running game nor a
legendary defense. For example, in the years that Tom Brady has either ventured to the Super
Bowl or won it, where did his team rank in terms of rushing and defense? I don't think he ever
had a team that had a rushing attack in the top ten while having a defense in the top ten
simultaneously.

This year, the Patriots' defense was ranked 8th. Their running game was ranked 18th. This
information makes me wonder if that historical argument (Marino needed a running game and a
defense) actually holds.


EDIT:

In '84, the season the Dolphins went to the Super Bowl, their running game was ranked 16th
while their defense was ranked 7th, so there goes that argument about what Marino needed
to win in order to grab a ring.

[Edited 2/21/15 12:37pm]

[Edited 2/21/15 13:31pm]

You know good and well you can't take one year to defuse the argument.

The Fish Defense was ranked 1st and 7th his first 2 years. After that? 12, 26, 16, 24, 22, 4, 24, 11, 24, 17, 10, 17, 16, 19.

By comparison, the Niners defensive rankings during Joe's SB runs from 81-90? 2, 23, 4, 1, 2, 3, 3, 8, 3, 2.