morningsong said:

I'd like to add, maybe I missing something, but it seems to me that many who say they embrace logic and rational ideas tend to lead with insults towards the opposing idea. Which only remind me of a more educated form of "the dozens" where its matter of humiliating the opposed into conceding.

I'm one of those people who embraces logic and rational ideas, although in the past I've had debates with atheists who insist otherwise. Really though it has more to do with my being very analytical.

What do you mean by "insults towards the opposing idea"? First of all, you can't insult an idea. You can only insult people ... and since those who embrace logic generally always support said logic with a plethora of real evidence and logic, how can it be called an insult? To me an insult is when someone makes statements to support their stance, while knowing full well that their statements are false. Some people WILL resort to deception and lies while attempting to "win" a disagreement or debate, and that's what is truly insulting.

Pokeno4Money said:

morningsong said:

I'd like to add, maybe I missing something, but it seems to me that many who say they embrace logic and rational ideas tend to lead with insults towards the opposing idea. Which only remind me of a more educated form of "the dozens" where its matter of humiliating the opposed into conceding.

I'm one of those people who embraces logic and rational ideas, although in the past I've had debates with atheists who insist otherwise. Really though it has more to do with my being very analytical.

What do you mean by "insults towards the opposing idea"? First of all, you can't insult an idea. You can only insult people ... and since those who embrace logic generally always support said logic with a plethora of real evidence and logic, how can it be called an insult? To me an insult is when someone makes statements to support their stance, while knowing full well that their statements are false.



Some people WILL resort to deception and lies while attempting to "win" a disagreement or debate, and that's what is truly insulting.

Are these folks evil or is it Judgement is in the eye of the beholder?

I don't know. I know some will adjust the facts, so they can hang on to their own reality.
And foremost their own self esteem.

It's not that easy to admit to yourself that you have been wrong. Maybe it was naivety, but what if you have done things that harmed somebody else? But you did it, because you were convinced you were right?

For example, my ex-husband adjusts or ignores a lot of facts, so he can hang on to his notion that it was understandable what he did. If he would admit to himself what really happened, he would have to adjust his self-image. He rather lies to himself than admit he's not the wonderboy he believes he is.

This is not to talk about my ex, but just an example of why peopel don't want to adjust their opinions, based on information that is served to them.

novabrkr said:

Graycap23 said:

None of these things matter if u have a hidden agenda that u want 2 force feed 2 others.

True. This happens in the academic world all the time. In my experience, it's the people with the hidden political agendas that end up drawing the p's and the q's on the chalkboards in front of people the most often. I've had some incredible bullshit been presented to me by people that have claimed to be "logicians".

Logic is contentless. You can present just about any argument in a logical manner and prove that the consequences result from the premises, but it doesn't really matter if the premises themselves are flawed. One could argue that logic is at its best when pointing out the flaws in the arguments, which is how I've tried to use it here too. With varying results.

Rationality, well, I think just about anything can be presented as a "rational" argument. It just means "reasoned" or "sane", really. However, Irrationality is a problem on a music discussion forum like this one, especially when people want to force their exclusively negative opinions on other people without having anything else to say than "I don't like it". Then they expect everyone else to agree.

Yes.

Science is now an institute that is abused to generate power and money.

Just like Religion, Democratic parliaments, Broadcasting companies have been used to steer the herds in favor of elite power.

The most shocking documentary I watched was 'Scientists under attack' by Denkmal films.

And the BBC made some bullshit program with the same title. But don't distract yourself, the Denkmal series is important to watch.


It still is the responsebility of every individual to know who, what and why decides for you what your norms, values are. And how you judge others and use your talents in every day life.

I dismiss any opinion, except MINE , of course

I only accept empirical info/data/evidence

dJJ said:

Pokeno4Money said:

I'm one of those people who embraces logic and rational ideas, although in the past I've had debates with atheists who insist otherwise. Really though it has more to do with my being very analytical.

What do you mean by "insults towards the opposing idea"? First of all, you can't insult an idea. You can only insult people ... and since those who embrace logic generally always support said logic with a plethora of real evidence and logic, how can it be called an insult? To me an insult is when someone makes statements to support their stance, while knowing full well that their statements are false.



Some people WILL resort to deception and lies while attempting to "win" a disagreement or debate, and that's what is truly insulting.

Are these folks evil or is it Judgement is in the eye of the beholder?

I don't know. I know some will adjust the facts, so they can hang on to their own reality.
And foremost their own self esteem.

It's not that easy to admit to yourself that you have been wrong. Maybe it was naivety, but what if you have done things that harmed somebody else? But you did it, because you were convinced you were right?

For example, my ex-husband adjusts or ignores a lot of facts, so he can hang on to his notion that it was understandable what he did. If he would admit to himself what really happened, he would have to adjust his self-image. He rather lies to himself than admit he's not the wonderboy he believes he is.

This is not to talk about my ex, but just an example of why peopel don't want to adjust their opinions, based on information that is served to them.

I wouldn't say those folks are evil, I think it's more a case of an automatic win-at-all-cost defense mechanism. They pick a stance, and they refuse to acknowledge when they are proven wrong because they think it's a negative reflection on them, so they say and do whatever they feel is necessary to try and support their stance.

Sounds like your ex was more in denial than intentionally doing evil, but maybe that's just my tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt. Anyone who ignores facts would best be described as irrational, which is part of being in denial. It's like the parent who thinks their child is an angel, because they think only about the child's good deeds while ignoring their bad deeds. To use the words of the immortal George Costanza, "It's not a lie if you believe it".

people have core beliefs .. these come from either, their own experiences, or being programmed by society eg. parents doctors churches scientists fast food comercials news schools friends etc ...

when you say something that directly contradicts core beliefs, most people will NOT even listen .. they become so wrapped up in ego and self esteem and denial that nothing will get through ...

for example .. you could say that soda is poison that causes cancer .. but an avid soda addict who has been programmed that sugar equals love will recoil and refuse to even think about these facts ..

did i mention that people are also programmed to be stupid .. as if a pharmacutical pusher would know better than you how to care for your own body .. as if you cant do your own research and know more than any doctor or scientist .. we are programmed not to believe in our own intelligence and to give authority over our intelligence to others, whom are often only repeating propaganda and have no actual knowledge themselves .. such as a health teacher who encourages dairy and animal flesh .. or a md who encourages narcotic drug use .. or an army recruiter who insists war is neccessary

there is also an effort to demonize any alternate knowledge provided by anyone other than the systems spokespersons .. as if alternative health or diet or lifestyle is some how CRAZY

heck .. even prince fans cant handle someone noting how shitty the mastering of the breakdown is .. they are all like "it was intentional" insteady of just admitting "it sounds like shit"

a culture of stupidity can be easily manipulated and controlled by those with the most wealth and power .. this is played out in society constantly, from the actions of our president, military, police, courts, wall street, bank bail outs, fda and even in the dumbing down of our musical and artistic culture

it is no wonder people choose to be ignorant, however, understanding the cause does not excuse the choice by many to be dumb ignorant and spoiled rotten as a result .. there are even people content to be labeled stupid just to avoid taking ANY responsibility for the lives they live or the world at large .. people should strive to be smarter and more well rounded intillectually .. maybe its the flouride in their water that makes them so content to die in a cubical staring at an ap doing nothing with their lives .. shouldn't people want more?

Pokeno4Money said:

dJJ said:

Are these folks evil or is it Judgement is in the eye of the beholder?

I don't know. I know some will adjust the facts, so they can hang on to their own reality.
And foremost their own self esteem.

It's not that easy to admit to yourself that you have been wrong. Maybe it was naivety, but what if you have done things that harmed somebody else? But you did it, because you were convinced you were right?

For example, my ex-husband adjusts or ignores a lot of facts, so he can hang on to his notion that it was understandable what he did. If he would admit to himself what really happened, he would have to adjust his self-image. He rather lies to himself than admit he's not the wonderboy he believes he is.

This is not to talk about my ex, but just an example of why peopel don't want to adjust their opinions, based on information that is served to them.

I wouldn't say those folks are evil, I think it's more a case of an automatic win-at-all-cost defense mechanism. They pick a stance, and they refuse to acknowledge when they are proven wrong because they think it's a negative reflection on them, so they say and do whatever they feel is necessary to try and support their stance.

Sounds like your ex was more in denial than intentionally doing evil, but maybe that's just my tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt. Anyone who ignores facts would best be described as irrational, which is part of being in denial. It's like the parent who thinks their child is an angel, because they think only about the child's good deeds while ignoring their bad deeds. To use the words of the immortal George Costanza, "It's not a lie if you believe it".

I agree with you that the automatic win-at-all-cost might be a common defense mechanism.

I probably adhered to it myself oftentimes. Admitting that I was wrong is something I had to learn. Stubborn proud gene is very prevalent in my family's DNA

Ironically, I'm less mild about my ex.

Ex consciously ignored the facts. And yes, he totally agrees with George Costanza. All the time.

I don't. Always been more drawn to Cosmo. I thing one can be hold accountable for ignorance. Especially when it's explained to you.

It's that tiny difference of being conscious about your mind twists or not.

That makes George guilty and Cosmo adorable.

TrevorAyer said:

people have core beliefs .. these come from either, their own experiences, or being programmed by society eg. parents doctors churches scientists fast food comercials news schools friends etc ...

when you say something that directly contradicts core beliefs, most people will NOT even listen .. they become so wrapped up in ego and self esteem and denial that nothing will get through ...

for example .. you could say that soda is poison that causes cancer .. but an avid soda addict who has been programmed that sugar equals love will recoil and refuse to even think about these facts ..

did i mention that people are also programmed to be stupid .. as if a pharmacutical pusher would know better than you how to care for your own body .. as if you cant do your own research and know more than any doctor or scientist .. we are programmed not to believe in our own intelligence and to give authority over our intelligence to others, whom are often only repeating propaganda and have no actual knowledge themselves .. such as a health teacher who encourages dairy and animal flesh .. or a md who encourages narcotic drug use .. or an army recruiter who insists war is neccessary

there is also an effort to demonize any alternate knowledge provided by anyone other than the systems spokespersons .. as if alternative health or diet or lifestyle is some how CRAZY

heck .. even prince fans cant handle someone noting how shitty the mastering of the breakdown is .. they are all like "it was intentional" insteady of just admitting "it sounds like shit"

a culture of stupidity can be easily manipulated and controlled by those with the most wealth and power .. this is played out in society constantly, from the actions of our president, military, police, courts, wall street, bank bail outs, fda and even in the dumbing down of our musical and artistic culture

it is no wonder people choose to be ignorant, however, understanding the cause does not excuse the choice by many to be dumb ignorant and spoiled rotten as a result .. there are even people content to be labeled stupid just to avoid taking ANY responsibility for the lives they live or the world at large .. people should strive to be smarter and more well rounded intillectually .. maybe its the flouride in their water that makes them so content to die in a cubical staring at an ap doing nothing with their lives .. shouldn't people want more?

Yes, they play the game and survive.

I agree with you. I don't understand why people consume goods that harm people and nature.

But that is what it is. As long as folks hold on to materialism as their measure for succes, this will continue.

Humankind will go extinct due to their own behavior. What comes around goes around.

Pokeno4Money said:

morningsong said:

I'd like to add, maybe I missing something, but it seems to me that many who say they embrace logic and rational ideas tend to lead with insults towards the opposing idea. Which only remind me of a more educated form of "the dozens" where its matter of humiliating the opposed into conceding.

I'm one of those people who embraces logic and rational ideas, although in the past I've had debates with atheists who insist otherwise. Really though it has more to do with my being very analytical.

What do you mean by "insults towards the opposing idea"? First of all, you can't insult an idea. You can only insult people ... and since those who embrace logic generally always support said logic with a plethora of real evidence and logic, how can it be called an insult? To me an insult is when someone makes statements to support their stance, while knowing full well that their statements are false. Some people WILL resort to deception and lies while attempting to "win" a disagreement or debate, and that's what is truly insulting.

I confess, I get leery when people self-profess themselves as being rational and logical, yet before they can finish a paragraph, they use words like, stupid, dumb, ignorant, to any opposing side. In my opinion, it's an epidemic on the internet, as though the fact that using those words automatically makes them intelligent. To be blunt, a lot of "12 year olds" (literally and/or emotionally) on the internet do it to make themselves look "wiser than their years" because that's the only thing in a lot of "intellectual" debates the average ones seem to latch on to. A putdown must mean intellectual superiority. We're all human, we're not computers we all get emotional and irrational on occasion, but it seems to standard of all average debates, it's kind of sad. Luckily, there are a ton of intellectual debates taking place all over the internet that'll give one an illuminating prespective that tend to purposely control "the dozens" playing that's so common. I probably wouldn't have noticed if I hadn't encountered a few and been completely blown away by how ideas and thoughts were presented.

it is funny I have been called out by people for being Conservative! That I am voting against my own best interest!

But I say "I do not let some promise of some short term gain sway me" I also do not let some hot button topic sway me. Some people vote based on what that party says it will give them...that is sick stuff.

I am all for any single consenting adult getting marries to any other single consenting adult...but I am not going to change my vote just because that person is opposed to some forms of marriage.

To me if that is a deal maker or breaker then you have proritiy issues.

I am super opposed to obama's heathcare plans... (which IS single payer) oh yeah it may help me some...but it hurt many others. Sorry but my support is NOT for sale.