dJJ said:

I'm interested how orgers perceive me.

I wonder how they think of me, as evil or perfect. Would love to know.

What I think of myself is less interesting than how others experience me.

Neither evil nor perfect, just awesomely HUMAN.

okay here goes my brain again. Perfect is suppose to automatically mean good, but is it really? I mean, thinking about perfect just means doing something with any mistakes, so in my mind you can do some nasty things to people perfectly well and it wouldn't be good, it would be just done well with no mistakes.

As a christian I guess this translates to my understanding of genesis, and it was good, has been automatically been interpeted as it's all perfect, it's all perfect has been automatically translated as perfectly round circle, perfectly straight lines and so forth, but science has shown that isn't so, so of course, that means it wasn't good? To me that created a schism, because who decided perfect just has to mean good or that good just has to mean someone's definition of perfect. What the heck does perfect mean anyway? Sounds like it's the exact same issue with the idea of nothing. There really is no such thing in all our knowledge. Could good just mean it does what it was suppose to do and basically that's enough? The reason why people aren't "good" is because they really don't do what they are "suppose" to do, they tend to get distracted and go off into all kinds of unexpected directions. Is that the true embodiment of evil? Screwing up the plan?

PURplEMaPLeSyrup said:

i wonder what that genesis story was really about. seems like there was a choice between life and knowinggoodandevil. do you think there is such thing as good? i agree evil is an illusion, but i think good is real, and maybe related to life? did god want man to just eat whats real, life, instead of realmixedwithfake? the hebrew 'evil' comes from a root meaning to 'spoil by breaking into pieces'............and its funny how the hebrew words for "crafty" and "naked" have the same spelling. did they hide themselves because they realized they were bucknaked, or because crafty illusions had entered their hearts? i read somewhere that man's heart was designed as a trap for the illusory essence, keeping it confined in the universe to this one planet, until every man chooses to break it down with true forgiveness and reenter the garden........ where is the part about Buying forgiveness? or is that the Snakeoil version of Christ's true teaching? well i guess its time for me to go learn hebrew, or maybe just pray, i suspect those stories are a gorgeous tapestry of poetry to really understand.

Way I see it (and other b4 me), u have a choice between being a nice ignoring fool or a creature that's seen all the shit and overcame it. Fact is that anyway there never was such a thing as garden of eden but as Joe pointed we are all perfect in essence. Buddhism had an interesting take on it: u r perfect but your perfection has been tainted with too many imperfections and you have to get rid of them to find perfection again. Kinda the same than abrahamic religions save that the message seems to be coveyed in a different manner: no original sin to pay for, just escaping pain. Still, I believe the original sin is in fact God's, for the world he created for us living beings is truly awful. I don't owe God shit, for he doesn't owe me shit either, we just speak and bargain.

dJJ said:

PURplEMaPLeSyrup said:

i wonder what that genesis story was really about. seems like there was a choice between life and knowinggoodandevil. do you think there is such thing as good? i agree evil is an illusion, but i think good is real, and maybe related to life? did god want man to just eat whats real, life, instead of realmixedwithfake? the hebrew 'evil' comes from a root meaning to 'spoil by breaking into pieces'............and its funny how the hebrew words for "crafty" and "naked" have the same spelling. did they hide themselves because they realized they were bucknaked, or because crafty illusions had entered their hearts? i read somewhere that man's heart was designed as a trap for the illusory essence, keeping it confined in the universe to this one planet, until every man chooses to break it down with true forgiveness and reenter the garden........ where is the part about Buying forgiveness? or is that the Snakeoil version of Christ's true teaching? well i guess its time for me to go learn hebrew, or maybe just pray, i suspect those stories are a gorgeous tapestry of poetry to really understand.

Well, I can't help you. I did not grow up with the bible, and I have not adopted one sort of religion as an adult.

Despite my atheist upbringing, the 10 commendmants were respected and reffered to in every day life.


I really believe that the 10 commandments are true and just guideluines for every human being.

No matter what you think is right or wrong, if you obey those rules. just like everyody else, the world would be a better place than it is right now.

Buying and forgiveness don't go together in my book.


I truly believe in an universal sense of justice. Atheist, Muslim or Christian, in our hearts we know the difference between right and wrong. It demands personal strenght to not get manipulated into hatred, but to value the miracle of life on earth.

--------------------

M

True, the truth lies in one's heart and the 10 commandments make lots of sense, but no book or commendments can force u to be good if u won't (see History). Religions have tried and still try to force people, that was their biggest mistake. I still believe there is a lot of truth and values to be found in religions but they need to get rid of all their most radical/extremist elements if they want to survive the 21st century, for the Singularity is coming. But the Singularity is part of God's plans, too, so all is fine.

morningsong said:

okay here goes my brain again. Perfect is suppose to automatically mean good, but is it really? I mean, thinking about perfect just means doing something with any mistakes, so in my mind you can do some nasty things to people perfectly well and it wouldn't be good, it would be just done well with no mistakes.

As a christian I guess this translates to my understanding of genesis, and it was good, has been automatically been interpeted as it's all perfect, it's all perfect has been automatically translated as perfectly round circle, perfectly straight lines and so forth, but science has shown that isn't so, so of course, that means it wasn't good? To me that created a schism, because who decided perfect just has to mean good or that good just has to mean someone's definition of perfect. What the heck does perfect mean anyway? Sounds like it's the exact same issue with the idea of nothing. There really is no such thing in all our knowledge. Could good just mean it does what it was suppose to do and basically that's enough? The reason why people aren't "good" is because they really don't do what they are "suppose" to do, they tend to get distracted and go off into all kinds of unexpected directions. Is that the true embodiment of evil? Screwing up the plan?

Thing is objectively there are no such science facts as good or evil.

Though, a science fact is that all living creatures tend to avoid pain and seek pleasure.

Therefore evil is pain and good is pleasure or at least the absence of pain.

When you extend that to living in a societal group then of course one should tend to avoiding giving pâin to others and to try and give others pleasure.

When I said earlier that I'd met a very few truly evil people I meant people who really had a genuine ball inflicting pain to others, knew it and did it on purpose.

It really is as simple as that but practically it, of course, isn't not THAT simple but it's a good start. Personally I think the abrahamic traditioon, despite containing deep truth, is often misleading. I found many more keys in the hindu-buddhist tradistion. But that's just me.

databank said:

morningsong said:

okay here goes my brain again. Perfect is suppose to automatically mean good, but is it really? I mean, thinking about perfect just means doing something with any mistakes, so in my mind you can do some nasty things to people perfectly well and it wouldn't be good, it would be just done well with no mistakes.

As a christian I guess this translates to my understanding of genesis, and it was good, has been automatically been interpeted as it's all perfect, it's all perfect has been automatically translated as perfectly round circle, perfectly straight lines and so forth, but science has shown that isn't so, so of course, that means it wasn't good? To me that created a schism, because who decided perfect just has to mean good or that good just has to mean someone's definition of perfect. What the heck does perfect mean anyway? Sounds like it's the exact same issue with the idea of nothing. There really is no such thing in all our knowledge. Could good just mean it does what it was suppose to do and basically that's enough? The reason why people aren't "good" is because they really don't do what they are "suppose" to do, they tend to get distracted and go off into all kinds of unexpected directions. Is that the true embodiment of evil? Screwing up the plan?

Thing is objectively there are no such science facts as good or evil.

Though, a science fact is that all living creatures tend to avoid pain and seek pleasure.

Therefore evil is pain and good is pleasure or at least the absence of pain.

When you extend that to living in a societal group then of course one should tend to avoiding giving pâin to others and to try and give others pleasure.

When I said earlier that I'd met a very few truly evil people I meant people who really had a genuine ball inflicting pain to others, knew it and did it on purpose.

It really is as simple as that but practically it, of course, isn't not THAT simple but it's a good start. Personally I think the abrahamic traditioon, despite containing deep truth, is often misleading. I found many more keys in the hindu-buddhist tradistion. But that's just me.

I would say that the Sun is good, but it can inflict a great deal of pain, it can be deadly, granted it doesn't make a decision to do anything. The way it accomplishes its function is aggressive, violent even, but it is necessary for anything to exist. It does as it was designed or whatever the laws of physics allow it to do and it does its efficiently and effectively, nothing more nothing less.

I know human beings are differently, they decide what to do. Funny question, if a person derives pleasure from giving others pain we would say that is evil, but if a person is in pain in giving pleasure to others, is that good? And why? You've read about those kind of people.

Both.