Nothinbutjoy said:

There was not always a middle class. One was either rich or poor. When the middle class started to thrive, the upper class looked down on them for being new money and the lower class looked down on them for acting above their rank.

I don't know if a middle class exist and if it did, it's getting blown over by the richer and poorer. Me personally I think I'm of lower middle class, not poor. But you have to live someway.

Ottensen said:

Dave1992 said:

I always thought it simply meant bourgeois, because, you know, "bourgie" is a short term for "bourgeois". And that doesn't mean rich or arrogant (like some people suggested), but simply something like a square, boring, lame middle-class citizen...

Generally that's what it used to mean in American English, and naturally here in Europe and the UK it remains the same. However, in the hands of we Americans we've manage to bastardize the term and twist the context into a new colloquialism that has a a host of other socio-economic connotations.

Timmy84 said:

Oh and @ScissorsRockPaper, it was nothing personal. Believe me I ain't like that. Just misunderstanding.

It's not personal at all, but I did find the delivery of the initial post from that person condescending. It was as if one felt we actually needed to be explained to what constitutes an authentic, affluent lifestyle for the educated, gifted, and black. Perhaps they didn't mean it that way, but it certainly came off as both grating and laughable, considering the collective level of intelligence of the people here, and the width and depth of life experience black American orgers have on this forum. Frankly speaking, we are not that obtuse nor sheltered and I felt a great portion of what was posted unnecessary .

Ottensen said:

Timmy84 said:

Oh and @ScissorsRockPaper, it was nothing personal. Believe me I ain't like that. Just misunderstanding.

It's not personal at all, but I did find the delivery of the initial post from that person condescending. It was as if one felt we actually needed to be explained to what constitutes an authentic, affluent lifestyle for the educated, gifted, and black. Perhaps they didn't mean it that way, but it certainly came off as both grating and laughable, considering the collective level of intelligence of the people here, and the width and depth of life experience black American orgers have on this forum. Frankly speaking, we are not that obtuse nor sheltered and I felt a great portion of what was posted unnecessary .

Yeah it blew over into something it shouldn't have.

prodigalfan said:

Timmy84 said:

Let me just clarify, it's great if you do good on the come up just be reminded of who you are and where you came from and I'll respect you. Just don't act like your shit don't stink because you graduate from college. You don't see me bragging about having an associate's degree to a thug, do you?

Hey, I got over that a long time ago. The "thug" don't give a DAMN about a college degree.

you fucken with the wrong thugs...

we admire those who capitalize on a

good education, you are who we need to

manage, hide, maintain, diversify, and

keep our health and happiness intact...

you must be speakin of 'bangers' who

are NOT thugs in any sense of the word...

babynoz said:

The word bougie has less to do with being upwardly mobile and more to do with being pretentious. At least that's the context where I have seen it used.

Exactly.

/thread

ScissorsRockPaper said:

Timmy84 said:

For real. Comments like that are just... what? I'm convinced someone's trolling here... how can anyone wanna be respected like that? Come on...

Don't take this personally - whether you "respect" me or not is not my concern, that's up to you.

Response to some of the comments related to my post:

1. divisive? yes. Yet another "label" we use against one another to separate us. Whose to say whether someone is "bougie" or not? Maybe "they" got it like that and "you" don't? And therefore, "you" don't understand where they're coming from. Doesn't make them bad or "bougie".

2. looking down on someone? how does one "look down on someone?" perhaps it more that, that person is "looking-up" at someone? -- in other workds "projecting" they're feelings of inadequacy on someone else.

3. forgetting where one came from? really what does this mean?

4. yes, it is akin to the don't hate me becaues i'm beautiful statement because its the same hater principle, as a fine woman walks into the room she could be as nice as anyone else, nicer even --what happens? the other women start projecting their insecurities on her and all of a sudden she becomes a "b" and a "h" and she thinks this and that---same story as the bougie statement.

5. and yes, those who are "proper" or educated or even take pride in trying to "better" themselves often get labeled as "bougie"; why is that? what's wrong with that?

6. i'm of the mindset that bougie is different from saditty. I think the original poster's point is most closely related to that word. Saditty is pretentiousness, bougie is misused and a thin veil for jelousy.

Thanks prodigalfan for seeing the context of my post for what it was.

I just got on, and will be honest and say that I haven't read the responses to this post, but here are mine:

1) Yes, it IS divisive, just as much when the person who "got it" doesn't understand or remember how it feels to "not have it" and act like it's the other person's fault for not... It's still hatin', regardless of the direction.

2) Someone CAN "look down" on someone- very easily, for not having what he or she has... treating people like they're not worth their time or energy for not having what they have.

3) "Forgetting where you came from" is acting like you have no clue what it was like "before you made it"-- around your new friends & acquaintances you act like those from your past are "those people", and around people from your past, you act uncomfortable or that you can't relate.

4) Noooo.... I didn't mean how others "project their insecurities". I'm talking about the person who ASSUMES that people are against her because of her [perceived] looks. Maybe people treat her differently because of that stank-ass attitude that those around her are insecure because she's beautiful (even if it's only in HER mirror).

5) Funny... I take MUCH pride in my education... started a thread about it last year (call me "Dr. Chocolate1 )... Yet, no one refers to me as "bougie"/"bourgie". Why? Because:

• I don't separate myself from others based on education
• I don't "look down on" others
• I didn't forget where I came from (same friends, same neighborhood, same Chocolate1)
• I haven't made myself a projection screen for the "less educated"... I did me, you do you.

6) Okay, I'm willing to concede that bougie & saditty aren't exactly the same...

I agree with the others that it was nothing personal... just conversation.

(And prodigalfan was very gracious in last night's discussion... )

Timmy84 said:

Ottensen said:

It's not personal at all, but I did find the delivery of the initial post from that person condescending. It was as if one felt we actually needed to be explained to what constitutes an authentic, affluent lifestyle for the educated, gifted, and black. Perhaps they didn't mean it that way, but it certainly came off as both grating and laughable, considering the collective level of intelligence of the people here, and the width and depth of life experience black American orgers have on this forum. Frankly speaking, we are not that obtuse nor sheltered and I felt a great portion of what was posted unnecessary .

Yeah it blew over into something it shouldn't have.

@ Timmy:

@ Ottensen: Yes! That's what prompted me to respond... And respond to the response.

(and I forgot to go back and correct my spelling! )

Ottensen said:

Dave1992 said:

I always thought it simply meant bourgeois, because, you know, "bourgie" is a short term for "bourgeois". And that doesn't mean rich or arrogant (like some people suggested), but simply something like a square, boring, lame middle-class citizen...

Generally that's what it used to mean in American English, and naturally here in Europe and the UK it remains the same. However, in the hands of we Americans we've manage to bastardize the term and twist the context into a new colloquialism that has a a host of other socio-economic connotations.

I see; that's very interesting. Thank you!

I have never heard of saditty either... Where are these folk talking like that??

This is why I cant go to the big cities... tourist would be flashing on my forehead!!

tinaz said:

I have never heard of saditty either... Where are these folk talking like that??

This is why I cant go to the big cities... tourist would be flashing on my forehead!!

You can hear Brandy mouthing off about the word "Saditty" in her Afrodisiac album. I think her song is actually spelled "sadiddy" but it's basically her attacking anyone who calls her that.

Ottensen said:

Timmy84 said:

Oh and @ScissorsRockPaper, it was nothing personal. Believe me I ain't like that. Just misunderstanding.

It's not personal at all, but I did find the delivery of the initial post from that person condescending. It was as if one felt we actually needed to be explained to what constitutes an authentic, affluent lifestyle for the educated, gifted, and black. Perhaps they didn't mean it that way, but it certainly came off as both grating and laughable, considering the collective level of intelligence of the people here, and the width and depth of life experience black American orgers have on this forum. Frankly speaking, we are not that obtuse nor sheltered and I felt a great portion of what was posted unnecessary .

No, nothing personal here. I understand the response(s). However, keep in mind that post are viewed by a wider audience than what you've described ^ here.

My point here is the labels we use to minimize each other are useless and often time just plain wrong.

I thought about the term yesterday and I recall hearing it in the 1980s. I wondered if it was a replacement for the word "uppidty"?

chocolate1 said:

ScissorsRockPaper said:

Don't take this personally - whether you "respect" me or not is not my concern, that's up to you.

Response to some of the comments related to my post:

1. divisive? yes. Yet another "label" we use against one another to separate us. Whose to say whether someone is "bougie" or not? Maybe "they" got it like that and "you" don't? And therefore, "you" don't understand where they're coming from. Doesn't make them bad or "bougie".

2. looking down on someone? how does one "look down on someone?" perhaps it more that, that person is "looking-up" at someone? -- in other workds "projecting" they're feelings of inadequacy on someone else.

3. forgetting where one came from? really what does this mean?

4. yes, it is akin to the don't hate me becaues i'm beautiful statement because its the same hater principle, as a fine woman walks into the room she could be as nice as anyone else, nicer even --what happens? the other women start projecting their insecurities on her and all of a sudden she becomes a "b" and a "h" and she thinks this and that---same story as the bougie statement.

5. and yes, those who are "proper" or educated or even take pride in trying to "better" themselves often get labeled as "bougie"; why is that? what's wrong with that?

6. i'm of the mindset that bougie is different from saditty. I think the original poster's point is most closely related to that word. Saditty is pretentiousness, bougie is misused and a thin veil for jelousy.

Thanks prodigalfan for seeing the context of my post for what it was.

I just got on, and will be honest and say that I haven't read the responses to this post, but here are mine:

1) Yes, it IS divisive, just as much when the person who "got it" doesn't understand or remember how it feels to "not have it" and act like it's the other person's fault for not... It's still hatin', regardless of the direction.

How can one determine this? How can someone judge whether another has "fogotten" what it took to get there? I would guess that with the struggles one endures, one does not "forget" what it took to get where they got, they just may not place such an emphasis or dwell on it because its "past history" in their life, that's pragmatic and why apologize for that?

2) Someone CAN "look down" on someone- very easily, for not having what he or she has... treating people like they're not worth their time or energy for not having what they have.

Perhaps once someone attains they no longer share the same value system. Once someone attains, their priorities change; they may not have time to devote to what they used to do. Whose to say this means they're looking down at someone else? They just are not with that program any longer. And maybe they really cannot relate anymore, perhaps in their struggle to accomplish, their opinion or perspective changes.

Example: hanging in the neighborhood with friends you grew up with. "Pookie" sells/does drugs. "RayRay" goes off to school and returns four years later with a bachelors and gets a job with PriceWaterhouse. Pookie tells the boys that RayRay looks down at them, he thinks he's better than us because RayRay keeps declining invitations to hang out at the club when in fact, RayRay still loves his boys, but he isn't hanging out because he's got to go to work and/or he knows how his boys are and he isn't interested in getting caught up in some ish.

3) "before you made it"-- around your new friends & acquaintances you act like those from your past are "those people", and around people from your past, you act uncomfortable or that you can't relate.

Again, this is very subjective from the perspective of the "less fortunte", its about their interpretation. See #2 above.

4) Noooo.... I didn't mean how others "project their insecurities". I'm talking about the person who ASSUMES that people are against her because of her [perceived] looks. Maybe people treat her differently because of that stank-ass attitude that those around her are insecure because she's beautiful (even if it's only in HER mirror).

Come on, we've all been in this situation and it happens. The statement is don't hate me because I'm beautiful--this has nothing to do with an "attitude" we're talking looks exclusively.

Anyway, who wrote and where can I find the manual of how we're all supposed to "act". Everyone is not the same and if a woman presents herself as "the sh*t" why should that bother anyone else?

5) Funny... I take MUCH pride in my education... started a thread about it last year (call me "Dr. Chocolate1 )... Yet, no one refers to me as "bougie"/"bourgie". Why? Because:

• I don't separate myself from others based on education
• I don't "look down on" others
• I didn't forget where I came from (same friends, same neighborhood, same Chocolate1)
• I haven't made myself a projection screen for the "less educated"... I did me, you do you.

Congratulations on your accomplishment. How do you know that someone hasn't (behind your back) called you bougie? When you get in your ride and go to work/school each day, there's most likely someone in the recess of your world who's looking at you saying...umhn she thinks she's all that--I guarantee it because its become fashion in our community.

6) Okay, I'm willing to concede that bougie & saditty aren't exactly the same...

jeez, thank you.

I agree with the others that it was nothing personal... just conversation. Nothing personal taken.

(And prodigalfan was very gracious in last night's discussion... )

tried to respond to each point...still a little blurry from last night. i might have to revise, so go easy on me....lol.

No need to revise...

We obviously don't see things the same way, and probably never will.

It's really not worth going around in circles.

Hope you enjoyed your weekend...

KingBAD said:

prodigalfan said:

Hey, I got over that a long time ago. The "thug" don't give a DAMN about a college degree.

you fucken with the wrong thugs...

we admire those who capitalize on a

good education, you are who we need to

manage, hide, maintain, diversify, and

keep our health and happiness intact...

you must be speakin of 'bangers' who

are NOT thugs in any sense of the word...

oh Lawd, I can't help but ask... difference please between "bangers" and "thugs".

Man communication or miscommunication can be a tricky thing. What means one thing to one person can mean something very different to the next.

ScissorsRockPaper said:

Ottensen said:

It's not personal at all, but I did find the delivery of the initial post from that person condescending. It was as if one felt we actually needed to be explained to what constitutes an authentic, affluent lifestyle for the educated, gifted, and black. Perhaps they didn't mean it that way, but it certainly came off as both grating and laughable, considering the collective level of intelligence of the people here, and the width and depth of life experience black American orgers have on this forum. Frankly speaking, we are not that obtuse nor sheltered and I felt a great portion of what was posted unnecessary .

No, nothing personal here. I understand the response(s). However, keep in mind that post are viewed by a wider audience than what you've described ^ here.

My point here is the labels we use to minimize each other are useless and often time just plain wrong.

I thought about the term yesterday and I recall hearing it in the 1980s. I wondered if it was a replacement for the word "uppidty"?

Yeah, I think of the words "uppitty" and "sadditty" being synomonous

babynoz said:

The word bougie has less to do with being upwardly mobile and more to do with being pretentious. At least that's the context where I have seen it used.

Yep Yep

Timmy84 said:

prodigalfan said:

But there is some truth to parts of this post. Truly.

Since when is it wrong to speak grammatically correct English?

I was teased relentlessly as a kid for "talkin' white" because of the way I talked.

Also, teased and called "square" by kids in my neighborhood because I went to Catholic school.

And then I overheard an adult talking about "bourgie" N-word and surmised that he was talking about Blacks who sent their kids to private schools... in other words me and mine.

Nothing pretentious about it. My mom wanted her kids to go to a school with a better education curriculum, and could not afford to move to the better neighborhoods with the better schools so she sent us to Catholic schools.

I think what the Paperscissors was saying that not all people who are accused of being bourgie are in fact bourgie. That maybe the person who has labeled the person is really covering for jealousy or low self esteemed. <---- not sure the reason why they do this.... but I assure you my mom was called bourgie by some "friends" becasue she went to college to become a professional in the 60s and wanted her kids to have a better education and not stand for the "status quo".

No one said it was nothing wrong with speaking correct English. It was the pretentious part that is why I said what I said.

And you have been saying it the whole damn thread. What part of it they aren't

getting?

prodigalfan said:

KingBAD said:

you fucken with the wrong thugs...

we admire those who capitalize on a

good education, you are who we need to

manage, hide, maintain, diversify, and

keep our health and happiness intact...

you must be speakin of 'bangers' who

are NOT thugs in any sense of the word...

oh Lawd, I can't help but ask... difference please between "bangers" and "thugs".

Man communication or miscommunication can be a tricky thing. What means one thing to one person can mean something very different to the next.

you don't usually see 'bangers' solo.

you don't usually see thugs in a crowd.

you tell a 'banger' about your PHD you may get your life took.

tell a thug you get took out for a celibration and maybe pick

out a nice ride for yourself. NOT a whole lot of education minded

'bangers' out there, their goal is turf, a thugs goal is property.

whut a 'banger' owns belongs to his gang. a thug owns his/her shit

and ain't beholden to nobody they don't wanna be beholden to...

tinaz said:

I have never in my life heard someone say this!! maybe I should get out more..

me either! and me too I guess.

what I don't get is why some people even give a shit at all about what others are acting like?

live and let live.

ScissorsRockPaper said:

Ottensen said:

It's not personal at all, but I did find the delivery of the initial post from that person condescending. It was as if one felt we actually needed to be explained to what constitutes an authentic, affluent lifestyle for the educated, gifted, and black. Perhaps they didn't mean it that way, but it certainly came off as both grating and laughable, considering the collective level of intelligence of the people here, and the width and depth of life experience black American orgers have on this forum. Frankly speaking, we are not that obtuse nor sheltered and I felt a great portion of what was posted unnecessary .

No, nothing personal here. I understand the response(s). However, keep in mind that post are viewed by a wider audience than what you've described ^ here.

My point here is the labels we use to minimize each other are useless and often time just plain wrong.

I thought about the term yesterday and I recall hearing it in the 1980s. I wondered if it was a replacement for the word "uppidty"?

If you read what I wrote then you will see that there is no need for me to keep anything of the sort in mind. Being a member of this site for many years, I'm well aware of the width of the audience that views this board and I said as much in my reply.

In any event it's not worth re-hashing further. I just wanted to make it abundantly clear that it's pretty damned likely that no black American person here needs to be educated on the attributes of what constitutes a middle class or traditionally African American bourgeois lifestyle by you or anyone else. A great portion of this board has been there and lived that already, but thank you for your post anyway.

As for uppity? I would say given the context in which bougie is used now the two words are pretty much interchangeable.

I don't wanna shift the course of the conversation, but it kinda reminded me of this film,,,,

[img:$uid]http://s3.amazonaws.com/criterion-production/release_images/1079/326_box_348x490.jpg[/img:$uid]

Is anybody else familiar with it?

Watched it in a screening in the IFC theatre with a girlfriend. It was a pleasant surprise. I really thought I would hate this film. I have no desire to sympathetize with preppies, yuppies, or other over-priveleged Americans.

But the director loves his characters so much, without being afraid to show their hypocrisies and frailties, that he wins you over.

Loved his other two films as well.

ScissorsRockPaper said:

Truth is, however, that not all blacks have the same life experiences or economic advantages and some blacks are raised in manners consistent with higher economic lifestyles, though no fault of their own, with (tennis courts in the backyard, brand new BMW for 16th birthday, private schools, suburban living, yearly vacations, etc.), and therefore do not identify with what has unfortunately been stereotyped as "black culture" - innercity living, loud-talking, cussing with every-other-word, thug/hoochie-dressing, cutting your boyfriend/girlfriend, etc.

Black people need to give each other a break and just get real with it.

My suburban ass WISHES.

KingBAD said:

prodigalfan said:

oh Lawd, I can't help but ask... difference please between "bangers" and "thugs".

Man communication or miscommunication can be a tricky thing. What means one thing to one person can mean something very different to the next.

you don't usually see 'bangers' solo.

you don't usually see thugs in a crowd.

you tell a 'banger' about your PHD you may get your life took.

tell a thug you get took out for a celibration and maybe pick

out a nice ride for yourself. NOT a whole lot of education minded

'bangers' out there, their goal is turf, a thugs goal is property.

whut a 'banger' owns belongs to his gang. a thug owns his/her shit

and ain't beholden to nobody they don't wanna be beholden to...

Harlepolis said:

I don't wanna shift the course of the conversation, but it kinda reminded me of this film,,,,

[img:$uid]http://s3.amazonaws.com/criterion-production/release_images/1079/326_box_348x490.jpg[/img:$uid]

Is anybody else familiar with it?

Watched it in a screening in the IFC theatre with a girlfriend. It was a pleasant surprise. I really thought I would hate this film. I have no desire to sympathetize with preppies, yuppies, or other over-priveleged Americans.

But the director loves his characters so much, without being afraid to show their hypocrisies and frailties, that he wins you over.

Loved his other two films as well.

Looks like a PBS movie that you think is awful but turns out to be pretty good. I will have to check this out.

chocolate1 said:

ScissorsRockPaper said:

Don't take this personally - whether you "respect" me or not is not my concern, that's up to you.

Response to some of the comments related to my post:

1. divisive? yes. Yet another "label" we use against one another to separate us. Whose to say whether someone is "bougie" or not? Maybe "they" got it like that and "you" don't? And therefore, "you" don't understand where they're coming from. Doesn't make them bad or "bougie".

2. looking down on someone? how does one "look down on someone?" perhaps it more that, that person is "looking-up" at someone? -- in other workds "projecting" they're feelings of inadequacy on someone else.

3. forgetting where one came from? really what does this mean?

4. yes, it is akin to the don't hate me becaues i'm beautiful statement because its the same hater principle, as a fine woman walks into the room she could be as nice as anyone else, nicer even --what happens? the other women start projecting their insecurities on her and all of a sudden she becomes a "b" and a "h" and she thinks this and that---same story as the bougie statement.

5. and yes, those who are "proper" or educated or even take pride in trying to "better" themselves often get labeled as "bougie"; why is that? what's wrong with that?

6. i'm of the mindset that bougie is different from saditty. I think the original poster's point is most closely related to that word. Saditty is pretentiousness, bougie is misused and a thin veil for jelousy.

Thanks prodigalfan for seeing the context of my post for what it was.

I just got on, and will be honest and say that I haven't read the responses to this post, but here are mine:

1) Yes, it IS divisive, just as much when the person who "got it" doesn't understand or remember how it feels to "not have it" and act like it's the other person's fault for not... It's still hatin', regardless of the direction.

2) Someone CAN "look down" on someone- very easily, for not having what he or she has... treating people like they're not worth their time or energy for not having what they have.

3) "Forgetting where you came from" is acting like you have no clue what it was like "before you made it"-- around your new friends & acquaintances you act like those from your past are "those people", and around people from your past, you act uncomfortable or that you can't relate.

4) Noooo.... I didn't mean how others "project their insecurities". I'm talking about the person who ASSUMES that people are against her because of her [perceived] looks. Maybe people treat her differently because of that stank-ass attitude that those around her are insecure because she's beautiful (even if it's only in HER mirror).

5) Funny... I take MUCH pride in my education... started a thread about it last year (call me "Dr. Chocolate1 )... Yet, no one refers to me as "bougie"/"bourgie". Why? Because:

• I don't separate myself from others based on education
• I don't "look down on" others
• I didn't forget where I came from (same friends, same neighborhood, same Chocolate1)
• I haven't made myself a projection screen for the "less educated"... I did me, you do you.

6) Okay, I'm willing to concede that bougie & saditty aren't exactly the same...

I agree with the others that it was nothing personal... just conversation.

(And prodigalfan was very gracious in last night's discussion... )

I've never even heard of the word. At first I thought you were mispelling the word "boogie" until I read some of the comments.

vainandy said:

I've never even heard of the word. At first I thought you were mispelling the word "boogie" until I read some of the comments.

Really Andy? I thought if you had heard of hot souse and crackers, you definitely heard the word bougie or bourgoise

damn....bougie is serious bidness!!!!