musicjunky318 said:

HotGritz said:

That scene always bothered me. Yeah it was an Italian pizzeria but it was in a black/latino neighborhood. Sal opened shop in that neighborhood because there were too many pizzerias in his own area. Consumerism deserves some respect. There should have been at least one brutha on the wall.

LOL Consumerism and respect don't correlate with one another. Never have, never will. It doesn't matter where it was put. It could have been on a side-street in Japan. At the end of the day it's Italian-owned.

And that muthafucca got burned down. Don't tell me consumerism and respect don't correlate with one another. When the customer feels disrespected, he stops giving up his money.

Well this thread is getting interesting. Folks are making valid points, though I may not agree with all, it's making for an interesting conversation. Carry on.

Im sick of Tavis and Dr West. Two arrogant assholes who take their opinions too seriously.

TonyVanDam said:

sextonseven said:

It's a movie about smart, proud black women. Nothing 'Stepin Fetchit' about it.

But every "proud black women" in The Help had to use a separate bathroom that had no fan OR a/c at all.

Well, that was the 'reality' of that era. Should they have pretended it wasn't like that? Isn't it time to stop sugarcoating and show how things really were at that time? This is the reason why these types of stories have to be told, to expose those realities. There were real people living those life experiences. You certainly can't pretend these situations didn't exist.

The movie centered on an era where viewers were able to question the human spirit, and ask themselves why was it fair for one group to be treated with a specific level of respect and dignity, moreso than many others who were part of another group, yet part of the human species as well. The African-American actresses in that movie portrayed the obvious emotions many of the women in that time period felt on a daily basis. They had to hold on to their dignity, while experiencing the disrespect and mistreatment many of them faced, from some of their employers, as demonstrated in the movie. That bathrooom scene exposed the ugliness and brainwashing techniques of racial prejudice, a learned behavior born out of ignorance, which often becomes a conditioned mentality for many, due to their lack of cultural education of the people they tend to mistreat/disrespect.

[Edited 2/15/12 19:27pm]

But Davis' role was a noble role. So, her argument backfires.

I get her point about white actors getting rich, messy roles. Some would argue that's what Denzel's turn in Training Day was -- his chance at a rich, messy character, after the Academy ignored his rich, noble character in Hurricane.

But, Viola's not being asked to play rich and messy in The Help. She's cleaning up the rich's messes and making noble choices.

Maybe she's had roles that are closer to the ideal she describes. I only remember her in The Help and Eat, Pray, Love -- during which she played a noble friend.

I wasn't moved by this film at all. Yes, its plot is historical, but the quality of acting in the movie is not groundbreaking in my opinion.

Plus, realistically, Emma Stone was the actual lead, since she unfairly got most of the lines and camera time. Her name even precedes Viola's on both IMDB and Wikipedia.

TonyVanDam said:

sextonseven said:

It's a movie about smart, proud black women. Nothing 'Stepin Fetchit' about it.

But every "proud black women" in The Help had to use a separate bathroom that had no fan OR a/c at all.

The implication of that statement is not fair at all.

But that was the truth of the time and circumstance, what... we're blaming them now? There was no choice in the matter, Tony.

There are those of us here that have family members that lived through the horrors of life as domestics in the south (TD3 and myself), and I resent the cavalier attitude the younger generations have that these women were somehow "less than" ,or were not proud, dignified women because they were maids in an APARTHEID SYSTEM that they did not create or could not buck at risk of losing their lives. What they were forced to endure until the Civil Rights movement picked up steam an worldwide attention doesn't make these women any less proud. It was their only opportunity for employment, and it kept them from being hanged.

I get both Tavis and Viola's POV (though mostly, I get Timmy84's POV ).

Tavis - discomfort because he's seeing it from the POV of "white people" (I use quotations marks because I know they are not a homogenous group) - he imagines they'll be sitting there feeling good about themselves because they nominated black actors, and because those actors were playing servants, a role that whites feel comfortable with seeing blacks play. And he finds that annoying.

Viola - frustrated because she's seeing it from the POV of an artist who wants to be able to play complex roles, not just role models (not only the "Cosby Show"-type roles, but the whole spectrum of roles - servants being a realistic part of that spectrum for a black actor). And she finds it annoying that she has to be judged by blacks when it's hard enough just being black in Hollywood.

This debate and the revisionism argument remind me of an article in The Atlantic (by a black historian) about the Civil War. Just as the African-American community is uncomfortable with, or fed up with, the portrayal/discussion/image/history of black servants, it also shies away from the portrayal/discussion/image/history of blacks as slaves apart from the "noble" (one-dimensional, or as Viola said, "watered-down") images. But this plays into the whole white revisionism of the Civil War as some sort of "Southern Lost Cause" (the article explains that term) - the revisionist view of the Civil War as something noble on both sides, when in fact it was incredibly messy. The article says that slaves (and many whites in the Northern States) believed the War and events like General Sherman's March to the Sea (incl. burning of Atlanta, total scorched earth policy, take no prisoners) was rightful punishment from God for the South's enslavement of people. Even prominent Southerners (General Lee) called it an evil, tho' they will keep their slaves and leaving it to "Providence" if the evil is meant to be righted. That's what the War was about - the black slaves were at the messy center of it - and their roles were incredibly complex and central. The vast majority did not have "noble" feelings about the "genteel Southern culture" and their masters - they wanted those mf's to burn in mf'ing hell! (that reminds me, I'm really curious how "Django Unchained" will turn out - I hope it's good). Also the vast majority were slaves, not freeman orators and essayists, and many killed and died on the battlefield.

Anyway, I understand that the story of blacks as "the help" may be tiresome and annoying, but it's a story that was reality for many blacks, and it's a positive step that these actresses can bring complexity to this story.

http://www.theatlantic.co...-war/8831/

Here's parts of the article that I find analogous to the artistic debate here:

For that particular community, for my community, the message has long been clear: the Civil War is a story for white people—acted out by white people, on white people’s terms—in which blacks feature strictly as stock characters and props. We are invited to listen, but never to truly join the narrative, for to speak as the slave would, to say that we are as happy for the Civil War as most Americans are for the Revolutionary War, is to rupture the narrative. Having been tendered such a conditional invitation, we have elected—as most sane people would—to decline.

The Lost Cause [revisionist myth] was spread, not merely by academics and Hollywood executives, but by the descendants of Confederate soldiers. Now the country’s battlefields are marked with the enduring evidence of their tireless efforts. But we have stories too, ones that do not hinge on erasing other people, or coloring over disrepute. For the Civil War to become Our War, it will not be enough to, yet again, organize opposition to the latest raising of the Confederate flag. The Civil War confers on us the most terrible burden of all—the burden of moving from protest to production, the burden of summoning our own departed hands, so that they, too, may leave a mark.

Ottensen said:

TonyVanDam said:

But every "proud black women" in The Help had to use a separate bathroom that had no fan OR a/c at all.

The implication of that statement is not fair at all.

But that was the truth of the time and circumstance, what... we're blaming them now? There was no choice in the matter, Tony.

There are those of us here that have family members that lived through the horrors of life as domestics in the south (TD3 and myself), and I resent the cavalier attitude the younger generations have that these women were somehow "less than" ,or were not proud, dignified women because they were maids in an APARTHEID SYSTEM that they did not create or could not buck at risk of losing their lives. What they were forced to endure until the Civil Rights movement picked up steam an worldwide attention doesn't make these women any less proud. It was their only opportunity for employment, and it kept them from being hanged.

Not fair?!? Like hell! Even in the 1950-60's, most of those white racist sons and daughters of bitches were still convince that blacks were not 100% human, hence THE real reason why they force those "proud black women" to use a separate bathroom.

TonyVanDam said:

Ottensen said:

The implication of that statement is not fair at all.

But that was the truth of the time and circumstance, what... we're blaming them now? There was no choice in the matter, Tony.

There are those of us here that have family members that lived through the horrors of life as domestics in the south (TD3 and myself), and I resent the cavalier attitude the younger generations have that these women were somehow "less than" ,or were not proud, dignified women because they were maids in an APARTHEID SYSTEM that they did not create or could not buck at risk of losing their lives. What they were forced to endure until the Civil Rights movement picked up steam an worldwide attention doesn't make these women any less proud. It was their only opportunity for employment, and it kept them from being hanged.

Not fair?!? Like hell! Even in the 1950-60's, most of those white racist sons and daughters of bitches were still convince that blacks were not 100% human, hence THE real reason why they force those "proud black women" to use a separate bathroom.

Tony, it looks like we're having a disconnect here somewhere . It's clear why they had to use separate bathrooms.

My issue was that just because a person was forced to endure the sick cruelty of that, it's not fair to imply that they were not a proud people.

You understand where I'm coming from now, or...?

Great, more Tavis bashing. So last week.

Viola Davis just wants to get work, I don't blame her, but how in the fuck are we ever going to get good roles for blacks if there is never pushback from the actors? You have actual producers who will say that they cannot put two blacks in a role where they are in love! This is 2012? They can have an interracial couple, but not two blacks.

What Davis said about Anthony Hopkins is so idiotic it is almost worth ignoring. Sure, whites have had roles where they play bad people, but the roles are still meaty (get it, meaty?) and whites are allowed to have millions of positive roles, roles that blacks cannot get. This includes behind the scenes, where, because of the unions, blacks have a hard time getting work. Name the amount of top black directors working now? Right.

Spike Lee wants to make a film and has to beg for independent funding because hollywood won't touch it. Even big pockets George Lucas had a hard time getting a film done about the Tuskeegee airmen. Fuck what Davis said.

Great, let's have more films with black people being saved by noble whites. Fuck that. This is 2012, we can do better. Scared, cowardly people like those two don't help. We need more bold motherfuckers like Cornel West to set racist hollywood straight. Burn, Hollywood Burn.

Tell em Chuck;

Yea, fuck Hollywood. Viola, love ya babe, but quit tommin.

Ottensen said:

TonyVanDam said:

But every "proud black women" in The Help had to use a separate bathroom that had no fan OR a/c at all.

The implication of that statement is not fair at all.

But that was the truth of the time and circumstance, what... we're blaming them now? There was no choice in the matter, Tony.

There are those of us here that have family members that lived through the horrors of life as domestics in the south (TD3 and myself), and I resent the cavalier attitude the younger generations have that these women were somehow "less than" ,or were not proud, dignified women because they were maids in an APARTHEID SYSTEM that they did not create or could not buck at risk of losing their lives. What they were forced to endure until the Civil Rights movement picked up steam an worldwide attention doesn't make these women any less proud. It was their only opportunity for employment, and it kept them from being hanged.

Thank you for saying that Ottensen. It was clearly an apartheid system, they certainly was not proud of being a part of nor would they want to be proud to a victim of it either. Keeping their dignity is what gave strength to their spirits in order for them survive the racially-prejudiced ordeals they faced.

The movie was 'about them'. The lead character's role in the movie was to write about the experiences/views of these women workingin a system that was unfair/unjust to them. I agree with Ottensen. My grandmother and great aunts, worked as domestics, and even great-grandfather worked as a farm worker as many men had to during their time, in order to survive back then, with limited education/resources for a better life, and better opportunities that were not 'open' to them during their era, and their experinece was in the Caribbean, where they faced similiar unfairness/injustices like many African-Americans in the States, back in those days.

I just watched an extensive interview, last night with Oprah and Viola, on Oprah's show on the "OWN' channel last night, and I was surprised to hear about Viola's very, poor and humble beginnings, and she discussed the racial prejudice she experienced growing up, but she never allowed anyone's racially, prejudiced attitudes or beliefs to prevent her life's dreams. She is definitely a great role model for many.

2freaky4church1 said:

Great, more Tavis bashing. So last week.

Viola Davis just wants to get work, I don't blame her, but how in the fuck are we ever going to get good roles for blacks if there is never pushback from the actors? You have actual producers who will say that they cannot put two blacks in a role where they are in love! This is 2012? They can have an interracial couple, but not two blacks.

What Davis said about Anthony Hopkins is so idiotic it is almost worth ignoring. Sure, whites have had roles where they play bad people, but the roles are still meaty (get it, meaty?) and whites are allowed to have millions of positive roles, roles that blacks cannot get. This includes behind the scenes, where, because of the unions, blacks have a hard time getting work. Name the amount of top black directors working now? Right.

Spike Lee wants to make a film and has to beg for independent funding because hollywood won't touch it. Even big pockets George Lucas had a hard time getting a film done about the Tuskeegee airmen. Fuck what Davis said.

Great, let's have more films with black people being saved by noble whites. Fuck that. This is 2012, we can do better. Scared, cowardly people like those two don't help. We need more bold motherfuckers like Cornel West to set racist hollywood straight. Burn, Hollywood Burn.

Tell em Chuck;

Yea, fuck Hollywood. Viola, love ya babe, but quit tommin.

You can't blame the racist behavior of some in Hollywood on Viola. That was there long before Viola started acting. Take it out on the Hollywood execs and ask them when are they going to wise up. That is who you should be screaming at. She's not tomming. She's not selling her soul. She's played various roles in movies, prior to "The Help'. I'm glad her character and the other black actresses' characters, exposed the ugliness of racial prejudice. You should be glad that was exposed-an apartheid system-as Ottensen referred to it, that existed in Ameica, that some would feel more comfortable if it was not exposed or revealed at all, and sweep it under the rug, but put the blame on those who take roles where 'real people' actually lived those type of experiences.

It's not easy discussing race in person, on the internet, in classrooms, so this is where movies like that come in to expose what real humans experienced in this country, and to show how a lot of that learned behavior, affected all who practiced it and those who were abused by it. . That's why you have documentaries regarding these types of post-slavery, post-civil war, pre-civlil rights experiences. To let people know these unjust situations/events happened.

You may as well be angry at the black actors/actresses who played in 'Roots' if that's the case, and call them 'Toms', because their roles portrayed the forced 'subservient, true life behaviors/attitudes' that was present during the time of slavery, mainly because of fear, and abuse many endured from their 'owners'. Were those roles in the movie 'Roots' fake or real? It was real, because it stayed true to the time period.

The actors/actresses, portrayed the images/behaviors/personalities of real humans, who lived in those situations on a daily basis. No one wants to be treated like an animal, but those real humans, experienced unjust situations on a daily basis, and by actors/actresses portraying the roles 'as it was' during those times, the audience gets a chance to experience the emotions/pain many experienced during in those situations. It makes no sense to sugarcoat what was real. Would you have felt better if a non-black actor/actress played the role instead? 2freaky, if that happened, you'd be the first one screaming "It's not fair!" all over these forums and raising a sh*t fit, and then some.

[Edited 2/16/12 9:25am]

artist76 said:

I get both Tavis and Viola's POV (though mostly, I get Timmy84's POV ).

Tavis - discomfort because he's seeing it from the POV of "white people" (I use quotations marks because I know they are not a homogenous group) - he imagines they'll be sitting there feeling good about themselves because they nominated black actors, and because those actors were playing servants, a role that whites feel comfortable with seeing blacks play. And he finds that annoying.

Viola - frustrated because she's seeing it from the POV of an artist who wants to be able to play complex roles, not just role models (not only the "Cosby Show"-type roles, but the whole spectrum of roles - servants being a realistic part of that spectrum for a black actor). And she finds it annoying that she has to be judged by blacks when it's hard enough just being black in Hollywood.

This debate and the revisionism argument remind me of an article in The Atlantic (by a black historian) about the Civil War. Just as the African-American community is uncomfortable with, or fed up with, the portrayal/discussion/image/history of black servants, it also shies away from the portrayal/discussion/image/history of blacks as slaves apart from the "noble" (one-dimensional, or as Viola said, "watered-down") images. But this plays into the whole white revisionism of the Civil War as some sort of "Southern Lost Cause" (the article explains that term) - the revisionist view of the Civil War as something noble on both sides, when in fact it was incredibly messy. The article says that slaves (and many whites in the Northern States) believed the War and events like General Sherman's March to the Sea (incl. burning of Atlanta, total scorched earth policy, take no prisoners) was rightful punishment from God for the South's enslavement of people. Even prominent Southerners (General Lee) called it an evil, tho' they will keep their slaves and leaving it to "Providence" if the evil is meant to be righted. That's what the War was about - the black slaves were at the messy center of it - and their roles were incredibly complex and central. The vast majority did not have "noble" feelings about the "genteel Southern culture" and their masters - they wanted those mf's to burn in mf'ing hell! (that reminds me, I'm really curious how "Django Unchained" will turn out - I hope it's good). Also the vast majority were slaves, not freeman orators and essayists, and many killed and died on the battlefield.

Anyway, I understand that the story of blacks as "the help" may be tiresome and annoying, but it's a story that was reality for many blacks, and it's a positive step that these actresses can bring complexity to this story.

http://www.theatlantic.co...-war/8831/

Here's parts of the article that I find analogous to the artistic debate here:

For that particular community, for my community, the message has long been clear: the Civil War is a story for white people—acted out by white people, on white people’s terms—in which blacks feature strictly as stock characters and props. We are invited to listen, but never to truly join the narrative, for to speak as the slave would, to say that we are as happy for the Civil War as most Americans are for the Revolutionary War, is to rupture the narrative. Having been tendered such a conditional invitation, we have elected—as most sane people would—to decline.

The Lost Cause [revisionist myth] was spread, not merely by academics and Hollywood executives, but by the descendants of Confederate soldiers. Now the country’s battlefields are marked with the enduring evidence of their tireless efforts. But we have stories too, ones that do not hinge on erasing other people, or coloring over disrepute. For the Civil War to become Our War, it will not be enough to, yet again, organize opposition to the latest raising of the Confederate flag. The Civil War confers on us the most terrible burden of all—the burden of moving from protest to production, the burden of summoning our own departed hands, so that they, too, may leave a mark.

I will state up front that I have not seen The Help or read the book mainly because of the reasons that Tavis S. and a few on this thread have listed. I'm just tired of Hollywood shoveling these types of movies where the black characters are servants or somehow downtrodden in some way. While I think these stories should not be sugar coated I just wish there was more of a balance in the type of movies that feature black actors and actresses. Just once in a while I'd like to see, for example a movie along the lines of say, "Presumed Innocent" where the leads are black actors/actresses made. Very "messy" characters that werent't hookers, drug dealers, or servants/slaves. And Training Day doesn't really cut it for obvious reasons.

I get Tavis's point but I see Viola's too.

Do you know what I don't get?

It is not a crime to be a maid!

It is a job and a necessary one. Think of what your hotel stay would be like if there were no maids? For every mansion there is a maid. It is not a law breaking activity to be a maid. It is not a sign of character weakness.

Many people open up there own cleaning services and make a boat load of money from people who are not so good at cleaning up after themselves.

All this bitching about Viola playing a maid is an insult to maids.

If Tavis has a maid I hope she quits. Does he think she is ignorant?

Being a "Godfather" is a crime. Nearly every Italian actor has played a crime family member at one time or other. There is some belly aching about that but not a lot.

Why should the lives of only rich or middle class people be told in movies or books? Are the stories of the lower classes lives not worthy?

What ever happen to "we are all equal in the eyes of God"?

Obviously not if many seem ashamed of their working class ancestors.

Deadflow3r said:

Do you know what I don't get?

It is not a crime to be a maid!

It is a job and a necessary one. Think of what your hotel stay would be like if there were no maids? For every mansion there is a maid. It is not a law breaking activity to be a maid. It is not a sign of character weakness.

Many people open up there own cleaning services and make a boat load of money from people who are not so good at cleaning up after themselves.

All this bitching about Viola playing a maid is an insult to maids.

If Tavis has a maid I hope she quits. Does he think she is ignorant?

Being a "Godfather" is a crime. Nearly every Italian actor has played a crime family member at one time or other. There is some belly aching about that but not a lot.

Why should the lives of only rich or middle class people be told in movies or books? Are the stories of the lower classes lives not worthy?

What ever happen to "we are all equal in the eyes of God"?

Obviously not if many seem ashamed of their working class ancestors.

Actually, the movie wasn't about how proud or not it is to be a maid though. Tavis' point is that Hollywood or shall I say those involved in the nomination process for Oscars, tend to recognize black actors/actresses for stereotypical roles, some choose to perform in, that on a societal scale or maybe I should say in the 'real world', are often negatively, associated with members of their racial group, based on racially-prejudiced, ignorant ssumptions of some within society.

For example, prostitutes, drug dealers, maids, janitors, poor, criminals, uneducated etc. You have many in society who associate those type of lifestyles with Blacks as a whole. Thing is, many Black actors/actresses, well-known ones at that, have played better, more upstanding roles as actors/actresses in movies, they have not recognized for on an Oscar-level scale, but where many could have been, outside of the stereotypical ones, they seem to get more recognition for by Hollywood execs. That's saying that it's time for Hollywood to look beyond those, type roles some Black actors/actresses choose to perform, and recognize roles outside of that, worty of being recognized for an oscar.

So I see Tavis' point on one end, but see Viola's as well, because that is not the only, type role she's ever performed, and maybe Tavis should have done some research first. I believe his questions/concerns should be directed to some Hollywood execs, not Viola. Viola performed a real life role, that displayed the struggles of women back in that time period who experienced mistreatment, and were limited to specific employjment opportunities, especially those who did not have the resources to pay for further education, training skills for better employment opportunites, and also lived in a time period where many employment opportunities were not open to them. Thing is, Viola is not 'limited' or has to take the role of a maid today, she has and can perform different roles, but it depends on what doors Hollywood opens to her and other Black actors/actresse or what roles she chooses to perform on Broadway as well. Her options are open. I also do believe she was nominated either last year or the prior year for a movie she performed in with Meryl Streep, and it is my understanding she was only in tha movie for about 11 minutes.

Viola!

musicjunky318 said:

“The black artist cannot live in a revisionist place,” she added. “The black artist can only tell the truth about humanity, and humanity is messy. People are messy.”

Totally agree with this. As long as Denzel and Will can play progessive and positive roles, then there is nothing wrong with trying to portray some of the more uncomfortable aspects of the past as well.

It's real, why shouldn't it be acknowledged?

Ottensen said:

TonyVanDam said:

Not fair?!? Like hell! Even in the 1950-60's, most of those white racist sons and daughters of bitches were still convince that blacks were not 100% human, hence THE real reason why they force those "proud black women" to use a separate bathroom.

Tony, it looks like we're having a disconnect here somewhere . It's clear why they had to use separate bathrooms.

My issue was that just because a person was forced to endure the sick cruelty of that, it's not fair to imply that they were not a proud people.

You understand where I'm coming from now, or...?

I got it. No harm done.

missfee said:

Well this thread is getting interesting. Folks are making valid points, though I may not agree with all, it's making for an interesting conversation. Carry on.

Have a .

2freaky4church1 said:

Great, more Tavis bashing. So last week.

Viola Davis just wants to get work, I don't blame her, but how in the fuck are we ever going to get good roles for blacks if there is never pushback from the actors? You have actual producers who will say that they cannot put two blacks in a role where they are in love! This is 2012? They can have an interracial couple, but not two blacks.

What Davis said about Anthony Hopkins is so idiotic it is almost worth ignoring. Sure, whites have had roles where they play bad people, but the roles are still meaty (get it, meaty?) and whites are allowed to have millions of positive roles, roles that blacks cannot get. This includes behind the scenes, where, because of the unions, blacks have a hard time getting work. Name the amount of top black directors working now? Right.

Spike Lee wants to make a film and has to beg for independent funding because hollywood won't touch it. Even big pockets George Lucas had a hard time getting a film done about the Tuskeegee airmen. Fuck what Davis said.

Great, let's have more films with black people being saved by noble whites. Fuck that. This is 2012, we can do better. Scared, cowardly people like those two don't help. We need more bold motherfuckers like Cornel West to set racist hollywood straight. Burn, Hollywood Burn.

Tell em Chuck;

Yea, fuck Hollywood. Viola, love ya babe, but quit tommin.

So how come Spike Lee didn't make his peace with Tyler Perry and get the independent funding from him?

Oops, I had to go there!

Oh lord lets not talk about Tyler and Spike.

I'd like to think that there is enough room in Holllyweird for both of them.

Tavis Smiley can kiss mine, Viola Davis and Octavia Spencer's Black asses...all day...every day!

Where is that full of shit self-righteous indignation of his, when he was talking to Denzel Washington?

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

Tavis Smiley can kiss mine, Viola Davis and Octavia Spencer's Black asses...all day...every day!

Where is that full of shit self-righteous indignation of his, when he was talking to Denzel Washington?

On his nose, because it was so far up Denzel's ass.

Ottensen said:

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

Tavis Smiley can kiss mine, Viola Davis and Octavia Spencer's Black asses...all day...every day!

Where is that full of shit self-righteous indignation of his, when he was talking to Denzel Washington?

On his nose, because it was so far up Denzel's ass.

2elijah said:

Deadflow3r said:

Do you know what I don't get?

It is not a crime to be a maid!

It is a job and a necessary one. Think of what your hotel stay would be like if there were no maids? For every mansion there is a maid. It is not a law breaking activity to be a maid. It is not a sign of character weakness.

Many people open up there own cleaning services and make a boat load of money from people who are not so good at cleaning up after themselves.

All this bitching about Viola playing a maid is an insult to maids.

If Tavis has a maid I hope she quits. Does he think she is ignorant?

Being a "Godfather" is a crime. Nearly every Italian actor has played a crime family member at one time or other. There is some belly aching about that but not a lot.

Why should the lives of only rich or middle class people be told in movies or books? Are the stories of the lower classes lives not worthy?

What ever happen to "we are all equal in the eyes of God"?

Obviously not if many seem ashamed of their working class ancestors.

Actually, the movie wasn't about how proud or not it is to be a maid though. Tavis' point is that Hollywood or shall I say those involved in the nomination process for Oscars, tend to recognize black actors/actresses for stereotypical roles, some choose to perform in, that on a societal scale or maybe I should say in the 'real world', are often negatively, associated with members of their racial group, based on racially-prejudiced, ignorant ssumptions of some within society.

For example, prostitutes, drug dealers, maids, janitors, poor, criminals, uneducated etc. You have many in society who associate those type of lifestyles with Blacks as a whole. Thing is, many Black actors/actresses, well-known ones at that, have played better, more upstanding roles as actors/actresses in movies, they have not recognized for on an Oscar-level scale, but where many could have been, outside of the stereotypical ones, they seem to get more recognition for by Hollywood execs. That's saying that it's time for Hollywood to look beyond those, type roles some Black actors/actresses choose to perform, and recognize roles outside of that, worty of being recognized for an oscar.

So I see Tavis' point on one end, but see Viola's as well, because that is not the only, type role she's ever performed, and maybe Tavis should have done some research first. I believe his questions/concerns should be directed to some Hollywood execs, not Viola. Viola performed a real life role, that displayed the struggles of women back in that time period who experienced mistreatment, and were limited to specific employjment opportunities, especially those who did not have the resources to pay for further education, training skills for better employment opportunites, and also lived in a time period where many employment opportunities were not open to them. Thing is, Viola is not 'limited' or has to take the role of a maid today, she has and can perform different roles, but it depends on what doors Hollywood opens to her and other Black actors/actresse or what roles she chooses to perform on Broadway as well. Her options are open. I also do believe she was nominated either last year or the prior year for a movie she performed in with Meryl Streep, and it is my understanding she was only in tha movie for about 11 minutes.

You are so right about ignorant assumptions.

I own the book and did not see the movie.

The whole point of the book seems to be that the upper class white folks were the ignorant ones full of assumptions.

To put janitors and maids in the same catagory as prostitutes and pimps to me is equal to putting homosexuals in the same category as pedifiles.

It is becoming very clear to me that wealthy blacks have the ability to be just as ignorant and full of their own importance as wealthy whites.

At the end of a chess game the pond and the King go back into the same box.

As I said before, I think it is time for the working class to show the upper class what life would be like without them.

Maybe when restaurants are closed because their aren't people who are willing to wash dishes or wait tables or other things that put them in the same category as pimps and prostetutes people might learn to respect those who may not make big money but are WORKING.

Deadflow3r said:

2elijah said:

Actually, the movie wasn't about how proud or not it is to be a maid though. Tavis' point is that Hollywood or shall I say those involved in the nomination process for Oscars, tend to recognize black actors/actresses for stereotypical roles, some choose to perform in, that on a societal scale or maybe I should say in the 'real world', are often negatively, associated with members of their racial group, based on racially-prejudiced, ignorant ssumptions of some within society.

For example, prostitutes, drug dealers, maids, janitors, poor, criminals, uneducated etc. You have many in society who associate those type of lifestyles with Blacks as a whole. Thing is, many Black actors/actresses, well-known ones at that, have played better, more upstanding roles as actors/actresses in movies, they have not recognized for on an Oscar-level scale, but where many could have been, outside of the stereotypical ones, they seem to get more recognition for by Hollywood execs. That's saying that it's time for Hollywood to look beyond those, type roles some Black actors/actresses choose to perform, and recognize roles outside of that, worty of being recognized for an oscar.

So I see Tavis' point on one end, but see Viola's as well, because that is not the only, type role she's ever performed, and maybe Tavis should have done some research first. I believe his questions/concerns should be directed to some Hollywood execs, not Viola. Viola performed a real life role, that displayed the struggles of women back in that time period who experienced mistreatment, and were limited to specific employjment opportunities, especially those who did not have the resources to pay for further education, training skills for better employment opportunites, and also lived in a time period where many employment opportunities were not open to them. Thing is, Viola is not 'limited' or has to take the role of a maid today, she has and can perform different roles, but it depends on what doors Hollywood opens to her and other Black actors/actresse or what roles she chooses to perform on Broadway as well. Her options are open. I also do believe she was nominated either last year or the prior year for a movie she performed in with Meryl Streep, and it is my understanding she was only in tha movie for about 11 minutes.

You are so right about ignorant assumptions.

I own the book and did not see the movie.

The whole point of the book seems to be that the upper class white folks were the ignorant ones full of assumptions.

To put janitors and maids in the same catagory as prostitutes and pimps to me is equal to putting homosexuals in the same category as pedifiles.

It is becoming very clear to me that wealthy blacks have the ability to be just as ignorant and full of their own importance as wealthy whites.

At the end of a chess game the pond and the King go back into the same box.

As I said before, I think it is time for the working class to show the upper class what life would be like without them.

Maybe when restaurants are closed because their aren't people who are willing to wash dishes or wait tables or other things that put them in the same category as pimps and prostetutes people might learn to respect those who may not make big money but are WORKING.

You have 'some' movie execs in Hollywood assuming the maid, pimp, drug dealer, criminal, poor, abuser, etc., roles are the only roles Blacks could play well, because they associate those roles with the presumptions they already have of Blacks.

Also, as far as the attitudes of many African-Americans about actors/actresses playing some of these roles, for me, it's more about what the movie's purpose is. 'The Help" focused on a reality of a time period, where those were they only types of jobs they were able to get, if they didn't have the funds/education to do better, and even those who lived on a higher, economic level, they were still 'type cast' or assumeed to be 'the maid, janitor,' etc.

I remember this happened to my mother when she had her house built in Florida in the late 80s. Well during the early 90s, when she was living in North Florida at the time, I believe it was the mailperson that came to the door, and when she opened it, she was asked if she was the maid. She was shocked and not happy being mistaken for being a 'maid'. She answered' No, I'm the homeowner', so you see, depending on where you live (in the U.S.), you still have some people who assume Blacks are 'supposed to be' or 'assumed' to be employed in specific, 'service' type positions.

On the Upper East Side of Manhattan, there are a lot, and I mean a lot of nannies from various, Black ethnic groups. From the Caribbean to Africa, and those born in the U.S. They're not the only ones, I see many of South/Central American or Hispanic descent as well.

Now this is not back in the days of 'The Help'. These are positions these women choose on their own today, obvious for survival reasons or some just make it a career.. If you're walking down one of those blocks in the city, it's almost like being back in the mid 50s to late 60s. It reminds me of a scene in the "Malcolm X" movie where some of the muslims approached the African-American domestic workers telling them they, they don't have to work in those type jobs and can do better.

Well, truth be told, sometimes I feel like walking up to some of those 'nannies' and telling them the same thing, but you know what, this is 2012, and there are many career options today, and I have to look at it, as me not knowing their financial situation, and why they chose those type jobs. I'm sure many of them are taking those jobs because either they may be new to living stateside, lack sufficient funds/resources to find better employment/career/education; some are retirees seeking extra employment;students temporarily take jobs as nannies while going to school, just to name a few reasons. Many of them are anywhere from 21 - through late 50s.

Nothing wrong with being a nanny of course, but I guess I start getting that same 'Tavis' feeling every now and then, and have to catch myself, and understand that it is not my place to make a choice for them. I look at it this way. This is 2012, not the civil rights era. Back then many of those womens' choices were limited, whereas in present day, there's more freedom of choice and Black women are able to compete with the rest of the population for better employment, career choices and better, economic lifestyles. One thing I can say, is that I never allowed anyone, and never will, to limit my capabilities, dreams or goals.

[Edited 2/17/12 10:03am]

2elijah said:

Deadflow3r said:

You are so right about ignorant assumptions.

I own the book and did not see the movie.

The whole point of the book seems to be that the upper class white folks were the ignorant ones full of assumptions.

To put janitors and maids in the same catagory as prostitutes and pimps to me is equal to putting homosexuals in the same category as pedifiles.

It is becoming very clear to me that wealthy blacks have the ability to be just as ignorant and full of their own importance as wealthy whites.

At the end of a chess game the pond and the King go back into the same box.

As I said before, I think it is time for the working class to show the upper class what life would be like without them.

Maybe when restaurants are closed because their aren't people who are willing to wash dishes or wait tables or other things that put them in the same category as pimps and prostetutes people might learn to respect those who may not make big money but are WORKING.

You have 'some' movie execs in Hollywood assuming the maid, pimp, drug dealer, criminal, poor, abuser, etc., roles are the only roles Blacks could play well, because they associate those roles with the presumptions they already have of Blacks.

Also, as far as the attitudes of many African-Americans about actors/actresses playing some of these roles, for me, it's more about what the movie's purpose is. 'The Help" focused on a reality of a time period, where those were they only types of jobs they were able to get, if they didn't have the funds/education to do better, and even those who lived on a higher, economic level, they were still 'type cast' or assumeed to be 'the maid, janitor,' etc.

I remember this happened to my mother when she had her house built in Florida in the late 80s. Well during the early 90s, when she was living in North Florida at the time, I believe it was the mailperson that came to the door, and when she opened it, she was asked if she was the maid. She was shocked and not happy being mistaken for being a 'maid'. She answered' No, I'm the homeowner', so you see, depending on where you live (in the U.S.), you still have some people who assume Blacks are 'supposed to be' or 'assumed' to be employed in specific, 'service' type positions.

On the Upper East Side of Manhattan, there are a lot, and I mean a lot of nannies from various, Black ethnic groups. From the Caribbean to Africa, and those born in the U.S. They're not the only ones, I see many of South/Central American or Hispanic descent as well.

Now this is not back in the days of 'The Help'. These are positions these women choose on their own today, obvious for survival reasons or some just make it a career.. If you're walking down one of those blocks in the city, it's almost like being back in the mid 50s to late 60s. It reminds me of a scene in the "Malcolm X" movie where some of the muslims approached the African-American domestic workers telling them they, they don't have to work in those type jobs and can do better.

Well, truth be told, sometimes I feel like walking up to some of those 'nannies' and telling them the same thing, but you know what, this is 2012, and there are many career options today, and I have to look at it, as me not knowing their financial situation, and why they chose those type jobs. I'm sure many of them are taking those jobs because either they may be new to living stateside, lack sufficient funds/resources to find better employment/career/education; some are retirees seeking extra employment;students temporarily take jobs as nannies while going to school, just to name a few reasons. Many of them are anywhere from 21 - through late 50s.

Nothing wrong with being a nanny of course, but I guess I start getting that same 'Tavis' feeling every now and then, and have to catch myself, and understand that it is not my place to make a choice for them. I look at it this way. This is 2012, not the civil rights era. Back then many of those womens' choices were limited, whereas in present day, there's more freedom of choice and Black women are able to compete with the rest of the population for better employment, career choices and better, economic lifestyles.

[Edited 2/17/12 9:56am]

When I see a fellow white women taking a job as a nanny I think "she must like kids".

I assume she has to pay for her own apartment and education and food therefor she is working.

I assume that she had to interview for the job and has to be a trustworthy person or no one would have left their kids with her.

No one but someone with money can afford a nanny or a maid. Believe you me they don't want ill spoken rejects from society around their children and possesions.

I have so many issues with classism.

I worked in 3 different places with the same white girl. Her father was a banker and she was often told she looked like Brooke Shields.

She would show up at interviews wearing Banana Republic clothing and expensive shoes.

The interviewer could not wait to give her the job!!!

SHE GOT FIRED FROM ALL 3 PLACES.

She whined about everything.

She left her work for other people to finish.

She talked on the phone endlessly.

She treated her bosses as if they were lucky to have her; as if knowing her was a priveledge. I assumed that "she had to work" because Daddy finally figured out what a spoilt brat he had created and wanted her to get a taste of reality.

Most people that have never taken a minimum wage job have not done so because they had a support system that had their back while they went to school. How wealthy your parents are is not something you can take credit for.

Some have more rungs on their ladder to the top then others. Just life.

Deadflow3r said:

2elijah said:

You have 'some' movie execs in Hollywood assuming the maid, pimp, drug dealer, criminal, poor, abuser, etc., roles are the only roles Blacks could play well, because they associate those roles with the presumptions they already have of Blacks.

Also, as far as the attitudes of many African-Americans about actors/actresses playing some of these roles, for me, it's more about what the movie's purpose is. 'The Help" focused on a reality of a time period, where those were they only types of jobs they were able to get, if they didn't have the funds/education to do better, and even those who lived on a higher, economic level, they were still 'type cast' or assumeed to be 'the maid, janitor,' etc.

I remember this happened to my mother when she had her house built in Florida in the late 80s. Well during the early 90s, when she was living in North Florida at the time, I believe it was the mailperson that came to the door, and when she opened it, she was asked if she was the maid. She was shocked and not happy being mistaken for being a 'maid'. She answered' No, I'm the homeowner', so you see, depending on where you live (in the U.S.), you still have some people who assume Blacks are 'supposed to be' or 'assumed' to be employed in specific, 'service' type positions.

On the Upper East Side of Manhattan, there are a lot, and I mean a lot of nannies from various, Black ethnic groups. From the Caribbean to Africa, and those born in the U.S. They're not the only ones, I see many of South/Central American or Hispanic descent as well.

Now this is not back in the days of 'The Help'. These are positions these women choose on their own today, obvious for survival reasons or some just make it a career.. If you're walking down one of those blocks in the city, it's almost like being back in the mid 50s to late 60s. It reminds me of a scene in the "Malcolm X" movie where some of the muslims approached the African-American domestic workers telling them they, they don't have to work in those type jobs and can do better.

Well, truth be told, sometimes I feel like walking up to some of those 'nannies' and telling them the same thing, but you know what, this is 2012, and there are many career options today, and I have to look at it, as me not knowing their financial situation, and why they chose those type jobs. I'm sure many of them are taking those jobs because either they may be new to living stateside, lack sufficient funds/resources to find better employment/career/education; some are retirees seeking extra employment;students temporarily take jobs as nannies while going to school, just to name a few reasons. Many of them are anywhere from 21 - through late 50s.

Nothing wrong with being a nanny of course, but I guess I start getting that same 'Tavis' feeling every now and then, and have to catch myself, and understand that it is not my place to make a choice for them. I look at it this way. This is 2012, not the civil rights era. Back then many of those womens' choices were limited, whereas in present day, there's more freedom of choice and Black women are able to compete with the rest of the population for better employment, career choices and better, economic lifestyles.

[Edited 2/17/12 9:56am]

When I see a fellow white women taking a job as a nanny I think "she must like kids".

I assume she has to pay for her own apartment and education and food therefor she is working.

I assume that she had to interview for the job and has to be a trustworthy person or no one would have left their kids with her.

No one but someone with money can afford a nanny or a maid. Believe you me they don't want ill spoken rejects from society around their children and possesions.

Well, I think it depends on what the duties entails, i.e., age of the child;how many children;what duties are expected, etc. Many lower to middle-class, single and two-parent families at various income levels, hire babysitters, which in my opinion, Ihave less responsibilities than a nanny and usually are not live-ins, like some nannies are. I also noticed, that many of them are very young, i.e, anywhere from 19 - 21 but younger than 30, these days. at the end of the day, and in these economic times, the job pays the bills. Certainly no shame in that.

[Edited 2/17/12 11:07am]

dreamfactory313 said:

Im sick of Tavis and Dr West. Two arrogant assholes who take their opinions too seriously.

I've been sick of them buffoons.

Anyways, I saw Viola in her Oprah interview, she looks so beautiful and dignified.