PurpleJedi said:

JoeTyler said:

I still don't get the hate against Columbus / Conquistadores. The conquerors before and after them were just as greedy/expeditive.

World's history until 1945 (and many would say until 1991) is basically full of violence and bloodshed...and don't get me started with the 00s decade...

I'm forty years old. Growing up, I was TAUGHT that Columbus was an "sailor" who wanted to "find a path to trade with India" and "discovered" this "vast, untamed, wilderness" that is America.

- Columbus was an explorer whose imperialistic nature pretty much set the tone for the next 500 years. His accounts to the king & queen of Spain were not of "discovery" but rather conquest. A brutal one at that.

- If trade was his objective, then the shipfuls of armed soldiers that he sailed with on his subsequent trips were poor choices for "trade" if he truly believed he was in "India" as the myth is told.

- There was an estimated 250 million inhabitants in the Americas before the landing of Columbus. It's difficult to truly know because of the plagues that swept the continent after Europe exported Smallpox. There were countelss nations with trade, with agriculture, with literate societies...all reduced to a mere fraction within a few decades.

Yes...the world is chock full of conquests and empires and even genocide...but we do not hold a parade for Genghis Khan do we? We don't celebrate the fall of Byzantium with "Ottoman pride" do we? Hitler may have done wonders for the psyche of Germany and helped plot it's course towards the modern powerhouse that it has become...but the horrors of his genocide clearly tarnish ANY sort of shine to his legacy. Columbus was no better than any other bloodthirsty, gold-mongering, 15th century European "adventurer". Had he truly been a businessman seeking trade, history would have turned out so much differently. Imagine if you could, the Americas not having been raped of their natural resources in order to fund the golden thrones of Europe but rather goods and services traded back & forth between sovereign nations??? Maybe we wouldn't have had to wait 500 years for the world to get to where we are? Perhaps?

Anyway...hope I answered you properly with my rant.

noimageatall said:

PurpleJedi said:

I'm forty years old. Growing up, I was TAUGHT that Columbus was an "sailor" who wanted to "find a path to trade with India" and "discovered" this "vast, untamed, wilderness" that is America.

- Columbus was an explorer whose imperialistic nature pretty much set the tone for the next 500 years. His accounts to the king & queen of Spain were not of "discovery" but rather conquest. A brutal one at that.

- If trade was his objective, then the shipfuls of armed soldiers that he sailed with on his subsequent trips were poor choices for "trade" if he truly believed he was in "India" as the myth is told.

- There was an estimated 250 million inhabitants in the Americas before the landing of Columbus. It's difficult to truly know because of the plagues that swept the continent after Europe exported Smallpox. There were countelss nations with trade, with agriculture, with literate societies...all reduced to a mere fraction within a few decades.

Yes...the world is chock full of conquests and empires and even genocide...but we do not hold a parade for Genghis Khan do we? We don't celebrate the fall of Byzantium with "Ottoman pride" do we? Hitler may have done wonders for the psyche of Germany and helped plot it's course towards the modern powerhouse that it has become...but the horrors of his genocide clearly tarnish ANY sort of shine to his legacy. Columbus was no better than any other bloodthirsty, gold-mongering, 15th century European "adventurer". Had he truly been a businessman seeking trade, history would have turned out so much differently. Imagine if you could, the Americas not having been raped of their natural resources in order to fund the golden thrones of Europe but rather goods and services traded back & forth between sovereign nations??? Maybe we wouldn't have had to wait 500 years for the world to get to where we are? Perhaps?

Anyway...hope I answered you properly with my rant.

Great rant!

PurpleJedi said:

Today we in the USA celebrate COLUMBUS DAY...!

It's a Federal Holiday, there's a parade down Fifth Avenue in NYC and everything.

So even though I don't have the day off from work, I'm thinking that in the spirit of this glorious day, on the way home I'll swing by an old person's home, beat them up, give them a disease, stick any survvivors in a closet, and declare that I've "discovered" the place and declare it mine.

Who's with me?

.... there's an old couple that lives next door...

sextonseven said:

PurpleJedi said:

Huh?

If she told her students what you said about Columbus day, she'd get fired!

Or at least "reprimanded".

PurpleJedi said:

Pokeno4Money said:

I googled "Dia de la Raza"

Yeah, apparently the day has been named and renamed frequently.

This is what I got;

Argentina = Day of Respect to Cultural Diversity (changed from Day of the Race in 2007)

Bahamas = Discovery Day

Belize = Pan-American Day

Chile = Day of the Discovery of Two Worlds (changed from Day of the Race in 2000)

Colombia = Day of the Race ()

Costa Rica = Day of Cultures (changed from Day of Discovery & Race)

Honduras = Day of the Race

Mexico = Day of the Race

El Salvador = Day of the Race

Uruguay = Day of the Americas

Venezuela = Day of Indigenous Resistance (thank you Hugo Chavez! )

Spain = Festival of Hispanic Culture(?)

España: celebró esta fecha como Fiesta de la Raza entre 1918 (mediante una ley de 15 de junio de 1918^[2] , declarada por el gobierno de Antonio Maura durante el reinado de Alfonso XIII) y 1958, año en que mediante un decreto^[6] se cambia su denominación oficial por la de Fiesta de la Hispanidad, confirmada en 1981 (en 1940, una orden ministerial^[13] había cambiado la denominación a Día de la Raza). En la actualidad es la fiesta nacional española, con la denominación de Fiesta Nacional de España.^[14] En la ciudad de Zaragoza, la festividad coincide con la Fiesta del Pilar, en honor a la Virgen del Pilar, patrona de la ciudad.

Spain most definitely still celebrates Columbus Day, on October 12 of each year.

It's under the name Fiesta Nacional de Espana.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...spa%C3%B1a

PurpleJedi said:

JoeTyler said:

I still don't get the hate against Columbus / Conquistadores. The conquerors before and after them were just as greedy/expeditive.

World's history until 1945 (and many would say until 1991) is basically full of violence and bloodshed...and don't get me started with the 00s decade...

I'm forty years old. Growing up, I was TAUGHT that Columbus was an "sailor" who wanted to "find a path to trade with India" and "discovered" this "vast, untamed, wilderness" that is America.

- Columbus was an explorer whose imperialistic nature pretty much set the tone for the next 500 years. His accounts to the king & queen of Spain were not of "discovery" but rather conquest. A brutal one at that.

- If trade was his objective, then the shipfuls of armed soldiers that he sailed with on his subsequent trips were poor choices for "trade" if he truly believed he was in "India" as the myth is told.

- There was an estimated 250 million inhabitants in the Americas before the landing of Columbus. It's difficult to truly know because of the plagues that swept the continent after Europe exported Smallpox. There were countelss nations with trade, with agriculture, with literate societies...all reduced to a mere fraction within a few decades.

Yes...the world is chock full of conquests and empires and even genocide...but we do not hold a parade for Genghis Khan do we? We don't celebrate the fall of Byzantium with "Ottoman pride" do we? Hitler may have done wonders for the psyche of Germany and helped plot it's course towards the modern powerhouse that it has become...but the horrors of his genocide clearly tarnish ANY sort of shine to his legacy. Columbus was no better than any other bloodthirsty, gold-mongering, 15th century European "adventurer". Had he truly been a businessman seeking trade, history would have turned out so much differently. Imagine if you could, the Americas not having been raped of their natural resources in order to fund the golden thrones of Europe but rather goods and services traded back & forth between sovereign nations??? Maybe we wouldn't have had to wait 500 years for the world to get to where we are? Perhaps?

Anyway...hope I answered you properly with my rant.

The bigger problem is there was no census and no one was counting plagues or no plagues.

There were no 'sovereign' nations in the Americas. There were tribes and empires.

Indians in the Americas were just as imperialistic.

No one chatises the Indians for their conquest of fellow Indian tribes, subjugation, human sacrifice, cannibalism and other practices they inflicted on one another.

Stop acting as if war, conquest and inhumane treatment of fellow human beings are European inventions or practices.

PurpleJedi said:

NDRU said:

No I'm 39, but most people I talk to were not taught the same things I was taught in school about Columbus

I thought everyone knew!!

[Edited 10/10/11 13:32pm]

That's awesome.

You must've had hippie teachers in your area!

Growing up in California, in ther 1970's we discussed in elementary school the error of attributing the discovery to Columbus.

Nothing to celebrate per se, but I have no problem with recognizing his act that changed world history.

PurpleJedi said:

Yes...the world is chock full of conquests and empires and even genocide...but we do not hold a parade for Genghis Khan do we? We don't celebrate the fall of Byzantium with "Ottoman pride" do we?

You mean like, for instance, Portugal Day which honors Camões, the poet who glorified Portugal's conquests by writing The Lusiads?

You know, that whole thing in 1415 when Portugal invaded northern Africa and conquered Ceuta and became the first global empire. But unlike Columbus, the Portuguese weren't just interested in expanding trade. Their other goal was to continue the Christian crusade against Islam.

And it was that first European attempt to find a sea route to Asia, by Portugal in the early 1400's, that convinced other European nations to sponsor similar voyages ... including that of Columbus.

Pokeno4Money said:

jone70 said:

While many other nationalities have parades to celebrate, none of them get a Federal Holiday.

You honestly think Columbus Day was established as a Federal Holiday in the States to celebrate Italian heritage? For real?

The holiday was established to celebrate Columbus landing in the New World. It's not just an American holiday, it's also celebrated in Spain & Uruguay & the Bahamas & many other countries in Latin America - since the 1700's, long before it became a US Federal Holiday in 1937.

Italians simply chose to have their heritage day coincide with the Columbus holiday, can't blame them since both Columbus & Amerigo Vespucci were Italian and the long weekend makes it convenient. It would not be very convenient to have the celebration on St Josephs Day, since that is always just two days after St Patricks Day.

No, of course I don't think it was established to celebrate Italian heritage. That's my point. Now, at least in New York, it's all "ooh celebrate Italian heritage and the greatness of Italians - Galileo, Columbus, etc." I think somehow it's morphed into Italian Pride day because, let's face it, Columbus didn't do such great things once he got to North America. It's less offensive to try to pretend it's a day about Italian pride.

My point was that if it's about Columbus, then keep it about Columbus and his "discovery" (yeah, right) of the "New World." If you want to celebrate Italian pride, then do it on a regular day like all the other nationalities have to - not a Federal Holiday. Otherwise, all the nationalities should be able to petition for their parade days to be Federal Holidays.

.

[Edited 10/10/11 17:13pm]

i never heard of this until now!!! this has been such an educational thread

.... i am only looking at the positive side of it, a celebration of ppl getting together

over emotion edit

[Edited 10/10/11 18:14pm]

jone70 said:

If you want to celebrate Italian pride, then do it on a regular day like all the other nationalities have to - not a Federal Holiday. Otherwise, all the nationalities should be able to petition for their parade days to be Federal Holidays.

I understand what you are saying, but I think the Italians have a right to pick a day that has meaning to them. Like I said, St Joseph's Day is far too close to St. Patrick's Day. What other day has meaning to them? Would you expect the Irish to pick a different day than March 17? Would you expect Mexicans to pick a different day than Cinco De Mayo? I just don't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

Now that we have President's Day, the only non-religious Federal Holiday in honor of a single person is Martin Luther King Day. Are you against that holiday as well because you believe that either every great American should be honored with a federal holiday, or none should be? Where does it end?

Pokeno4Money said:

jone70 said:

If you want to celebrate Italian pride, then do it on a regular day like all the other nationalities have to - not a Federal Holiday. Otherwise, all the nationalities should be able to petition for their parade days to be Federal Holidays.

I understand what you are saying, but I think the Italians have a right to pick a day that has meaning to them. Like I said, St Joseph's Day is far too close to St. Patrick's Day. What other day has meaning to them? Would you expect the Irish to pick a different day than March 17? Would you expect Mexicans to pick a different day than Cinco De Mayo? I just don't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

Now that we have President's Day, the only non-religious Federal Holiday in honor of a single person is Martin Luther King Day. Are you against that holiday as well because you believe that either every great American should be honored with a federal holiday, or none should be? Where does it end?

You're missing my point. I just think it's silly to pretend that this holiday is now somehow about Italian pride. The Italians didn't even want to help Columbus. He had to beg the Spanish King & Queen to finance him. But now, since it's not PC to celebrate Columbus the colonizer, it becomes about Italian pride? It's very transparent, especially when the other countries listed in this thread as examples celebrate it as Discovery Day or something, not Italian Pride. (BTW, yes, I'd expect Mexicans to choose their independence day, not May 5th. ) I just think it's super phoney to pretend that it's about something (Italian heritage) that it's really not and didn't start as. Holidays are only good for getting a day off of work, anyway; that was the whole reason Columbus Day even became a holiday - so Federal workers could have an extra day off.

SUPRMAN said:

PurpleJedi said:

I'm forty years old. Growing up, I was TAUGHT that Columbus was an "sailor" who wanted to "find a path to trade with India" and "discovered" this "vast, untamed, wilderness" that is America.

- Columbus was an explorer whose imperialistic nature pretty much set the tone for the next 500 years. His accounts to the king & queen of Spain were not of "discovery" but rather conquest. A brutal one at that.

- If trade was his objective, then the shipfuls of armed soldiers that he sailed with on his subsequent trips were poor choices for "trade" if he truly believed he was in "India" as the myth is told.

- There was an estimated 250 million inhabitants in the Americas before the landing of Columbus. It's difficult to truly know because of the plagues that swept the continent after Europe exported Smallpox. There were countelss nations with trade, with agriculture, with literate societies...all reduced to a mere fraction within a few decades.

Yes...the world is chock full of conquests and empires and even genocide...but we do not hold a parade for Genghis Khan do we? We don't celebrate the fall of Byzantium with "Ottoman pride" do we? Hitler may have done wonders for the psyche of Germany and helped plot it's course towards the modern powerhouse that it has become...but the horrors of his genocide clearly tarnish ANY sort of shine to his legacy. Columbus was no better than any other bloodthirsty, gold-mongering, 15th century European "adventurer". Had he truly been a businessman seeking trade, history would have turned out so much differently. Imagine if you could, the Americas not having been raped of their natural resources in order to fund the golden thrones of Europe but rather goods and services traded back & forth between sovereign nations??? Maybe we wouldn't have had to wait 500 years for the world to get to where we are? Perhaps?

Anyway...hope I answered you properly with my rant.

The bigger problem is there was no census and no one was counting plagues or no plagues.

There were no 'sovereign' nations in the Americas. There were tribes and empires.

Indians in the Americas were just as imperialistic.

No one chatises the Indians for their conquest of fellow Indian tribes, subjugation, human sacrifice, cannibalism and other practices they inflicted on one another.

Stop acting as if war, conquest and inhumane treatment of fellow human beings are European inventions or practices.

What's with the wordplay dude?

The Tinglit were a sovereign nation. The Hopi were a sovereign nation. The Lenca were a sovereign nation. The Yanomama were and theoretically still are a sovereign nation. Etc., etc., etc.

Can you point out where exactly I mentioned anything about war & conquest being "European inventions"???
The point of this thread is that Columbus Day isn't really something that should be celebrated with balloons and a parade. The point of my specific post had to do with the fallacy of what I (and countless other Americans) have been taught through the years about this "benign Columbus" myth.

If you and others such as NDRU were not subjected to this mindfuck, then congratulations. But with my own kids, I had to lead them away from the rosy picture that they were being fed in school about the whole "discovery" bit.

But I will tell you what bugs the hell out of me, now that you mention "cannibalism" and "human sacrifice"...

...since my first introduction to Pre-columbian Mesoamerican history, I've heard of the horrors of the human sacrifices conducted by the Aztecs, Mayans, etc. The hearts being ripped out of the victims' chests while still beating, the chidlren being flayed to satisfy the rain god, the virgins being tossed into cenotes...yadda, yadda, yadda. All these horrific acts committed by heathens to their false gods.

YET what about the christians? What about the countless indigenous "heathens" that fell to the Spanish sword or their bonfires in the name of THEIR God? There are documented accounts of their penchant to gather a dozen "savages" and light them on fire in honor of the twelve apostles of Christ. And let's not leave out the horrors of the Inquisition...how many thousands of innocent men, women and children where tortured and killed in the name of God?

I don't know about you, but if I were to fall victim to a religious sacrifice, I would much rather have my heart yanked out and die quickly, then to be slowly and sadistically be roasted alive like a suckling pig.

End of rant.

Pokeno4Money said:

PurpleJedi said:

Yes...the world is chock full of conquests and empires and even genocide...but we do not hold a parade for Genghis Khan do we? We don't celebrate the fall of Byzantium with "Ottoman pride" do we?

You mean like, for instance, Portugal Day which honors Camões, the poet who glorified Portugal's conquests by writing The Lusiads?

You know, that whole thing in 1415 when Portugal invaded northern Africa and conquered Ceuta and became the first global empire. But unlike Columbus, the Portuguese weren't just interested in expanding trade. Their other goal was to continue the Christian crusade against Islam.

And it was that first European attempt to find a sea route to Asia, by Portugal in the early 1400's, that convinced other European nations to sponsor similar voyages ... including that of Columbus.

I had not heard of Portugal Day...

sunflower7 said:

PurpleJedi said:

Today we in the USA celebrate COLUMBUS DAY...!

It's a Federal Holiday, there's a parade down Fifth Avenue in NYC and everything.

So even though I don't have the day off from work, I'm thinking that in the spirit of this glorious day, on the way home I'll swing by an old person's home, beat them up, give them a disease, stick any survvivors in a closet, and declare that I've "discovered" the place and declare it mine.

Who's with me?

.... there's an old couple that lives next door...

We'll bring some hard candy with us to gain their trust...then WHAM-! It's all ours for the taking!

Screw Columbus Day! But Happy Thanksgiving to all you Canadian Orgers.

Pokeno4Money said:

Spain most definitely still celebrates Columbus Day, on October 12 of each year.

It's under the name Fiesta Nacional de Espana.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...spa%C3%B1a

That's so confusing...so in 1981 it was changed to Dia de la Hispanidad (Day of Hispanic-ness), and in 1987 it was changed to a more generic Fiesta Nacional (National Holiday), although it's celebrated in conjunction with Armed Forces day and in certain areas with saints.

Not much mentioning of Cristobal Colon in there, huh?

728huey said:

Screw Columbus Day! But Happy Thanksgiving to all you Canadian Orgers.

PurpleJedi said:

JoeTyler said:

I still don't get the hate against Columbus / Conquistadores. The conquerors before and after them were just as greedy/expeditive.

World's history until 1945 (and many would say until 1991) is basically full of violence and bloodshed...and don't get me started with the 00s decade...

I'm forty years old. Growing up, I was TAUGHT that Columbus was an "sailor" who wanted to "find a path to trade with India" and "discovered" this "vast, untamed, wilderness" that is America.

- Columbus was an explorer whose imperialistic nature pretty much set the tone for the next 500 years. His accounts to the king & queen of Spain were not of "discovery" but rather conquest. A brutal one at that.

- If trade was his objective, then the shipfuls of armed soldiers that he sailed with on his subsequent trips were poor choices for "trade" if he truly believed he was in "India" as the myth is told.

- There was an estimated 250 million inhabitants in the Americas before the landing of Columbus. It's difficult to truly know because of the plagues that swept the continent after Europe exported Smallpox. There were countelss nations with trade, with agriculture, with literate societies...all reduced to a mere fraction within a few decades.

Yes...the world is chock full of conquests and empires and even genocide...but we do not hold a parade for Genghis Khan do we? We don't celebrate the fall of Byzantium with "Ottoman pride" do we? Hitler may have done wonders for the psyche of Germany and helped plot it's course towards the modern powerhouse that it has become...but the horrors of his genocide clearly tarnish ANY sort of shine to his legacy. Columbus was no better than any other bloodthirsty, gold-mongering, 15th century European "adventurer". Had he truly been a businessman seeking trade, history would have turned out so much differently. Imagine if you could, the Americas not having been raped of their natural resources in order to fund the golden thrones of Europe but rather goods and services traded back & forth between sovereign nations??? Maybe we wouldn't have had to wait 500 years for the world to get to where we are? Perhaps?

Anyway...hope I answered you properly with my rant.

I feel you

but I've always thought that Cortes (the Killer) is the one who gets the bad rap.

People celebrate the "Columbus Day" day as the day the planet finally got together (at least by sea), at least that's what I think...

it's like the 4th of July...when people celebrate the genius of Washington as a "modern" politician (democratic), but not the genocide of the 19th Century...

with the "Columbus Day" people celebrate the remarkable trip of the three Spanish ships, not the conquest of Cortes or Pizarro...

but as I've said, I think your point is also valid...

PurpleJedi said:

sunflower7 said:

.... there's an old couple that lives next door...

We'll bring some hard candy with us to gain their trust...then WHAM-! It's all ours for the taking!

In one ear and out the other. It took me a moment to figure out why my mail didn't come yesterday. Well trash day will be the same since the City doesn't take it as a day off either so back on schedule.

So what do Canadians do on their Thanksgiving Day, what's the tradition?