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alphastreet said: Free2BMe said: There were a lot of Wow moments on Invincible. It’s a shame Mottola sabotaged the promotion. Yeah definitely, it was so disappointing to watch some of the songs go by with no credit for how good they were MJ sabotaged the promotion himself (ie the Cry music video, ie the Butterflies music video, ie the Unbreakable music video, etc.) . But it s a shame that neither MJ nor Sony wanted to release Whatever Happens as a single. It s a shame there weren't reasonnable people involved in that project. |
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RODSERLING said: alphastreet said: Yeah definitely, it was so disappointing to watch some of the songs go by with no credit for how good they were MJ sabotaged the promotion himself (ie the Cry music video, ie the Butterflies music video, ie the Unbreakable music video, etc.) . But it s a shame that neither MJ nor Sony wanted to release Whatever Happens as a single. It s a shame there weren't reasonnable people involved in that project. Yeah I can definitely see both sides of the story. I know mj spoke out against Sony, but he himself lost interest in the project too and didn’t want to be controlled by the label as it appeared | |
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This article is kinda dumb, as the albums didn't come out in the same era/at the same timeframe. Prince was onto The Rainbow Children when MJ dropped Invincible and there's a better review/analysis here:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2001/12/10/the-royals
"New Power slide...." |
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alphastreet said: RODSERLING said: MJ sabotaged the promotion himself (ie the Cry music video, ie the Butterflies music video, ie the Unbreakable music video, etc.) . But it s a shame that neither MJ nor Sony wanted to release Whatever Happens as a single. It s a shame there weren't reasonnable people involved in that project. Yeah I can definitely see both sides of the story. I know mj spoke out against Sony, but he himself lost interest in the project too and didn’t want to be controlled by the label as it appeared Mottola says in memoirs that he visited MJ in a Sony studio to see where MJ were on the recording of Invincible, circa 1999/2000. He was terrified to see that MJ wzs paranoid and actually recorded in a truck. He spent a lot of Sony money dedicated to the recording to offer gifts to the studio employees, to excuse him of being late everyday. Bruce Swedien didnt get paid for Invincible, until MJ s death when John Branca settled the matter. MJ owed Swedien more than 100.000 $. . Then Mottola forced MJ to do a listening to the Sony executives. 6 songs were played. They were "good" But not exceptionnal, and Mottola began to have real doubts about the potential of the album. . [Edited 12/7/20 23:29pm] |
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Much of the outtakes are much better than the whole album, songs like Xscape, Blue Gangsta, Hollywood Tonight, more authentic to the Michael Jackson sound. | |
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RODSERLING said: alphastreet said: Yeah I can definitely see both sides of the story. I know mj spoke out against Sony, but he himself lost interest in the project too and didn’t want to be controlled by the label as it appeared Mottola says in memoirs that he visited MJ in a Sony studio to see where MJ were on the recording of Invincible, circa 1999/2000. He was terrified to see that MJ wzs paranoid and actually recorded in a truck. He spent a lot of Sony money dedicated to the recording to offer gifts to the studio employees, to excuse him of being late everyday. Bruce Swedien didnt get paid for Invincible, until MJ s death when John Branca settled the matter. MJ owed Swedien more than 100.000 $. . Then Mottola forced MJ to do a listening to the Sony executives. 6 songs were played. They were "good" But not exceptionnal, and Mottola began to have real doubts about the potential of the album. . [Edited 12/7/20 23:29pm] Oh wow, I never heard that before. Do you think it’s true? | |
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Both albums were terrible | |
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MattyJam said:
They were alright, from Emancipation I do love 2 songs tho, Somebody's Somebody and Soul sanctuary and from History Stranger In Mascow and They Don't Care About Us. But the album's overall were decent 5/10 in my opinion. Great picture by the way [Edited 12/10/20 9:00am] | |
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MattyJam said:
Nah, if you like them you like them. Truth be told I couldn't stick with 90s Prince. Such a bad period for him in my opinion, Gold experience was great and D&P but other than that it was his weakest era. | |
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MattyJam said:
I actually prefer his 00s album's a bit more because he wasn't some desperate trend follower I do love Rainbow Children, One Nite Alone and Musicology. 3121 is meh | |
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Oh i hated it, still do. I'm from an era when Prince was the king of his craft from 1980-1987 afrer that it was painful to watch.
What do you think about his 90s work? | |
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MattyJam said:
Oh makes sense, yeah it was rough for me as a prince fan then. I was happy when he went back to being called Prince and wasn't following trends then. But when I think of Prince's career for me is the 80-87 and 00-09. Amazing stuff he did throughout the 20th century and 21st century. | |
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RODSERLING said: alphastreet said: Yeah definitely, it was so disappointing to watch some of the songs go by with no credit for how good they were MJ sabotaged the promotion himself (ie the Cry music video, ie the Butterflies music video, ie the Unbreakable music video, etc.) . But it s a shame that neither MJ nor Sony wanted to release Whatever Happens as a single. It s a shame there weren't reasonnable people involved in that project. What you are saying is what Mottola spewed to the media. According to insiders, producers, etc. everything that Michael said about Mottola sabotaging Invincible was 100% true. Btw, according to Michael’s nephews, he DID want to release Whatever Happens as a single and they were going to be in the video. Michael had already discussed the concept of the video. Therefore, what Mottola spewed was a lie. Also, Butterflies was a #1 hit with R&B radio because they played the hell out it even when Mottola refused to release it. There was not one commercial promoting that album ON AMERICAN TV. When I went to store to purchase Invincible on the day of release, there were no posters or anything related to Invincible, and that had NEVER happened with an MJ release. Michael didn’t do that, Mottola was behind that. Michael became so frustrated because of Mottola’s devious “devil” actions that he finally had to go straight to the HEAD OF SONY in Japan. When Michael did that Mottola was almost immediately REMOVED from his job. The SPIN was that Mottola wanted to do other ventures. BULLSHIT! Mottola was FIRED!! FTR, Everyone IN THE KNOW didn’t believe the crap that Mottola was spewing to the media and the industry about Michael and Invincincible. WE knew that this SABOTAGE was ORCHESTRATED and CONTRIVED by Mottola and others who wanted to destroy Michael for reasons that benefited them. The bottomline is that Michael didn’t sabotage Invincible, Mottola did and that’s the very reason Michael directly confronted him and subsequently went over Mottola’s head to the REAL HEAD of Sony in Japan. DON’T BELIEVE THE HYPE THAT WAS SPEWED AND LEAKED TO MEDIA AND INDUSTRY. IT WAS A LIE! | |
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Free2BMe said: RODSERLING said: MJ sabotaged the promotion himself (ie the Cry music video, ie the Butterflies music video, ie the Unbreakable music video, etc.) . But it s a shame that neither MJ nor Sony wanted to release Whatever Happens as a single. It s a shame there weren't reasonnable people involved in that project. What you are saying is what Mottola spewed to the media. According to insiders, producers, etc. everything that Michael said about Mottola sabotaging Invincible was 100% true. Btw, according to Michael’s nephews, he DID want to release Whatever Happens as a single and they were going to be in the video. Michael had already discussed the concept of the video. Therefore, what Mottola spewed was a lie. Also, Butterflies was a #1 hit with R&B radio because they played the hell out it even when Mottola refused to release it. There was not one commercial promoting that album ON AMERICAN TV. When I went to store to purchase Invincible on the day of release, there were no posters or anything related to Invincible, and that had NEVER happened with an MJ release. Michael didn’t do that, Mottola was behind that. Michael became so frustrated because of Mottola’s devious “devil” actions that he finally had to go straight to the HEAD OF SONY in Japan. When Michael did that Mottola was almost immediately REMOVED from his job. The SPIN was that Mottola wanted to do other ventures. BULLSHIT! Mottola was FIRED!! FTR, Everyone IN THE KNOW didn’t believe the crap that Mottola was spewing to the media and the industry about Michael and Invincincible. WE knew that this SABOTAGE was ORCHESTRATED and CONTRIVED by Mottola and others who wanted to destroy Michael for reasons that benefited them. The bottomline is that Michael didn’t sabotage Invincible, Mottola did and that’s the very reason Michael directly confronted him and subsequently went over Mottola’s head to the REAL HEAD of Sony in Japan. DON’T BELIEVE THE HYPE THAT WAS SPEWED AND LEAKED TO MEDIA AND INDUSTRY. IT WAS A LIE! not only do i believe this, but i actually listened to Invincible again and its much better than i remember. Im not gonna lie, i got caught up for awhile believing alot of the negative media about Michael and it jaded my opinions of his music. but ive completely changed my feelings on that, since... with that said, is that really Mike's vocals on 2000 Watts?... he sounds different on that joint ...been playing that one on repeat lately [Edited 12/20/20 6:10am] |
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RJOrion said: Free2BMe said: What you are saying is what Mottola spewed to the media. According to insiders, producers, etc. everything that Michael said about Mottola sabotaging Invincible was 100% true. Btw, according to Michael’s nephews, he DID want to release Whatever Happens as a single and they were going to be in the video. Michael had already discussed the concept of the video. Therefore, what Mottola spewed was a lie. Also, Butterflies was a #1 hit with R&B radio because they played the hell out it even when Mottola refused to release it. There was not one commercial promoting that album ON AMERICAN TV. When I went to store to purchase Invincible on the day of release, there were no posters or anything related to Invincible, and that had NEVER happened with an MJ release. Michael didn’t do that, Mottola was behind that. Michael became so frustrated because of Mottola’s devious “devil” actions that he finally had to go straight to the HEAD OF SONY in Japan. When Michael did that Mottola was almost immediately REMOVED from his job. The SPIN was that Mottola wanted to do other ventures. BULLSHIT! Mottola was FIRED!! FTR, Everyone IN THE KNOW didn’t believe the crap that Mottola was spewing to the media and the industry about Michael and Invincincible. WE knew that this SABOTAGE was ORCHESTRATED and CONTRIVED by Mottola and others who wanted to destroy Michael for reasons that benefited them. The bottomline is that Michael didn’t sabotage Invincible, Mottola did and that’s the very reason Michael directly confronted him and subsequently went over Mottola’s head to the REAL HEAD of Sony in Japan. DON’T BELIEVE THE HYPE THAT WAS SPEWED AND LEAKED TO MEDIA AND INDUSTRY. IT WAS A LIE! not only do i believe this, but i actually listened to Invincible again and its much better than i remember. Im not gonna lie, i got caught up for awhile believing alot of the negative media about Michael and it jaded my opinions of his music. but ive completely changed my feelings on that, since... with that said, is that really Mike's vocals on 2000 Watts?... he sounds different on that joint ...been playing that one on repeat lately [Edited 12/20/20 6:10am] Glad you are giving Invincible another chance. This album is STILL on repeat for me. Yes,that’s Michael’s voice on 2000 Watts. Every time that I think of what could hsve been with Invincible, WITHOUT THE SABOTAGE, I get sick to the stomach. Even without the sabotage, the album was top selling album of that year, I think. Can you imagine the videos and promotion of that album that Michael had planned? Btw, I know LOTS and LOTS of people who became fans BECAUSE of Invincible. People were buying that album because of WORD OF MOUTH and because R&B radio played the hell out of Butterflies, YRMW, Break of Dawn, and Heaven Can Wait. In fact, R&B radio IGNORED Mottola and Sony and played those songs anyway. Invincible also brought back MANY R&B fans who thought that MJ was sounding too “pop”. This is the album that brought that LOVE back. The reaction among R&B fans was phenomenal. Most didn’t fall for the fake reviews from the so-called “critics” and purchased the album because of what was heard on radio and from what was heard from friends and family. | |
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Better late than never. | |
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Good article and although peppered with some subjective musings, it paints a somewhat accurate narrative of where both artists were at that juncture in their careers. On the topic of the original subject of this post, as much as I love Prince, MJ had the stronger album. Both meandered in some spots, but Invincible was more accessible. If memory serves correctly, Prince was trying to capture the success with Clive Davis in a way that Santana had with the Supernatural album, hence the partnership. The end result was sub par.
On a side note, I always find it fascinating that they are always a packaged deal in critiques of their art. They were pop, but occupied two different stratospheres.
Prince was always driven by musical auteurism and his DNA is in a majority of his work, regardless of the era. His attempts at hip hop and jazz were still uniquely Prince. He operated in a bit of a silo and his preferences post Purple Rain (changing sounds, bands, etc) caused a lot of the PR fans to jump ship, so his music was mostly following whatever his spirit wanted to produce (Rave seemed forced).
MJ, having been part of success at a very young age, mastered his craft early, studied the business, and made art that was in tune with sound/visionof the time designed to reach the masses (he hit homeruns more often than not). Having some excellent videos also drove his art to a different level.
Miss them both tremendously. "Old man's gotta be the old man. Fish has got to be the fish." | |
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COMPUTERBLUE1984 said:
Good article and although peppered with some subjective musings, it paints a somewhat accurate narrative of where both artists were at that juncture in their careers. On the topic of the original subject of this post, as much as I love Prince, MJ had the stronger album. Both meandered in some spots, but Invincible was more accessible. If memory serves correctly, Prince was trying to capture the success with Clive Davis in a way that Santana had with the Supernatural album, hence the partnership. The end result was sub par.
On a side note, I always find it fascinating that they are always a packaged deal in critiques of their art. They were pop, but occupied two different stratospheres.
Prince was always driven by musical auteurism and his DNA is in a majority of his work, regardless of the era. His attempts at hip hop and jazz were still uniquely Prince. He operated in a bit of a silo and his preferences post Purple Rain (changing sounds, bands, etc) caused a lot of the PR fans to jump ship, so his music was mostly following whatever his spirit wanted to produce (Rave seemed forced).
MJ, having been part of success at a very young age, mastered his craft early, studied the business, and made art that was in tune with sound/visionof the time designed to reach the masses (he hit homeruns more often than not). Having some excellent videos also drove his art to a different level.
Miss them both tremendously.  | |
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Oh my God, both were one of the worst albums of both artists' careers. With Michael, I had already praised him with "History" for being one of the only mainstream R&B artists left that still put several uptempo, danceable, funky tracks on an album during an era when damn never everyone else had sold out to the slow to midtempo, Fisher Price drum machine sounding shit hop sound. There were some things I didn't like on "History" but he still had some jams on it, which is more than I can say about most of the other people during that era, other than Prince or some of the underground house artists. When I saw the video and heard "You Rock My World" on VH1, I said hell naw! I didn't write him off just yet because I was living in desperate times for some jams back then. I wasn't as rigid as I am now. I could tolerate a little bullshit on the albums back then but when the 1990s ended, I decided I wasn't going to tolerate bullshit anymore because the 2000s was a new decade and that whole Fisher Price sound of the 1990s should have died when that decade died. I decided to wait for something else from the album to surface but it never did so I just continued to hold out on buying the album. Years later with the internet, I went to youtube and listened to a little of each song. With each song, I said....next, next, next, next,next. Total sellout. Fisher Price all over the place and I don't think there was one damn fast track at all. As I did with sister Janet years earlier....or more like Miss Jackson...because I'm nasty..... I dropped his ass. . With Prince was another story. I was already pissed with that little bitch the year before for selling out with "New Power Soul" so I was skeptical about if his next album was going to be good or not. I also heard that he was going to be on Arista and I wasn't happy about that either because the Queen of Sellouts came from that label and I didn't want any of her people around Prince trying to influence him. When I listened to the title track, "Rave", I loved it. I said, OK, this sounds like something off of "Batman". Prince is back. And then I heard the rest of the tracks and I was like, hell naw! Very weak. The slow songs weren't the sexy slow style of "Do Me, Baby", Adore", or even more recent ones like "I Hate U" or "Dark", they were generic current R&B sound like they were trying to get them to fit in with the format of what was on the radio at that time......hell, and still on the radio at this present time. Stuff like "Pretty Man" and "Baby Knows" was simply decent but nothing great. I also hated that he had guest artists on the album. It's like they were trying to give him the Michael Jackson formula of having guest artists on the album to try to get him back on top. . Actually, I could have tolerated the "Rave" album if it were a Michael Jackson album. It's way better than "Invincible" which is totally Fisher Price sounding and completely full of slow to midtempo stuff. If "Rave" had been a Michael Jackson album, guest stars wouldn't have disappointed me because Michael is known for having them on his albums. Not liking some of the slow tracks wouldn't have disappointed me because I didn't like some of the slow tracks on "History" either. I would have called it Michael Jackson's worst album but I could have tolerated it coming from him. But with Prince, I expect better and tolerate a lot less from him than I do from other artists. . . . [Edited 12/21/20 3:06am] Andy is a four letter word. | |
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Invincible is very underrated. It's better than Dangerous and on the same level as HIStory imho. | |
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Smokey80 said: Invincible is very underrated. It's better than Dangerous and on the same level as HIStory imho. whoa... slow down... NO Michael Jackson lp is better than Dangerous... only Off The Wall is even comparable... and Rave is still better than Invincible, but i fuck with 2000 Watts heavy... 2000 Watts & Prettyman is a close call IMO as the best song on either lp |
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2000 Watts reminds me of X's Face... ALOT |
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Smokey80 said: Invincible is very underrated. It's better than Dangerous and on the same level as HIStory imho. Oh come on, it is not better than Dangerous though it’s still good | |
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Great songs on Invincible: YRMW, Unbreakable, Whatever Happens, Speechless, Butterflies, Heaven Can Wait, 2000 Watts and Threatened
Great songs on Dangerous: Jam, In The Closet, Remember The Time, Who Is It, Dangerous and Give Into Me | |
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