bboy87 said:

rdhull said:

He left cause he was married to Gordys daughter and loyalty..not cause his head was swole thinking 40 million sold meant he was the second coming

Michael didn't leave the group because of his ego, he left because the decisions the family was making was becoming troublesome along with the infighting.

Michael signed on to Victory before Thriller was even done. He had written songs with Marlon, Jackie, and Randy. It was when Jermaine came back and the whole tour thing started back up was when trouble began and prompted Michael and Marlon to leave

2300 Jackson Street was done by Randy, Jackie, Tito, and Randy. I love the brothers' music but they couldn't get along throughout the sessions, especially Jackie and Jermaine and the album flopped, prompting CBS to drop them the following year

This was missing from the daily drama reported by the media. They made it seem like it was Michael that was the problem when it was really more drama with the older brothers. Jackie was at odds with Jermaine going as far back as the Motown split. I know he was happy he wasn't on the Victory tour (he got injured) lol but I heard they had been arguing over singing lead even during those sessions. The brothers were gonna break up anyway. Jermaine and the other Jacksons were at odds on their reality show.

Timmy84 said:

bboy87 said:

Sony dropped them after 2300 Jackson Street

I wonder how long their Sony/CBS contract was.

Until Michael left I think the brothers knew that. They knew that if Michael left, it was gonna be difficult. Remember when Mrs. Jackson told that story that the label or attorneys called her to tell her to tell the other boys to save their money?

Had the brothers tried to get along long enough to make some songs, the Humanity album would've happened

CANUHELPME said:

PatrickS77 said:

Why should he? Why would he want to do that? There was no real time between his albums anyway. He spent promoting and touring an album for 2,5 years after it's release. Besides he was building his solo career! Building an image of this outerworldly, worldwide, megastar, rising higher than anyone before him. The Jacksons didn't really have a part in that and would have hindered him and worked pretty much against that!

But like I said, after the trial, after recovering, he should have done something with them. Go full circle in a way.

Also I have to say, I do not sense that there was a really big desire in the family anyway! I mean, they released only 1 album without him. Jermaine stopped making music in '91 altogether. Why would/should he drag them along, when they are not willing (or not capable) to try anything on their own (they would be just baggage at that point)??

But again, for the record. I would have loved seeing them getting back together at one point. And their reunion at the 30th anniversary show was the highlight for me.

[Edited 12/29/11 9:15am]

Songs like Lovely One, This Place Hotel, and Be Not Always would not have been included on his solo albums. I think he could have released more creative music through the group.

He did not have to work with the hottest producer. He could have taken chances on a Jacksons album.

I understand you and many others love MJ the megastar. I just wish his die hard fans and Sony would embrace his entire career.

Maybe not Lovely One and Heartbreak Hotel and Be Not Always definitely would've been on his solo albums. Heartbreak Hotel was the song that influenced Billie Jean, Dirty Diana, Wanna Be Startin' Somthin'. Rod Temperton tried to top Heartbreak Hotel and the result was Starlight.....aka Thriller

and Be Not Always was right up his alley

bboy87 said:

Timmy84 said:

I wonder how long their Sony/CBS contract was.

Until Michael left I think the brothers knew that. They knew that if Michael left, it was gonna be difficult. Remember when Mrs. Jackson told that story that the label or attorneys called her to tell her to tell the other boys to save their money?

Had the brothers tried to get along long enough to make some songs, the Humanity album would've happened

That's what they get for not listening to their mamma. They were so convinced that Michael wouldn't bounce but I think once his success happened, they knew he wouldn't kick it.

Timmy84 said:

bboy87 said:

Until Michael left I think the brothers knew that. They knew that if Michael left, it was gonna be difficult. Remember when Mrs. Jackson told that story that the label or attorneys called her to tell her to tell the other boys to save their money?

Had the brothers tried to get along long enough to make some songs, the Humanity album would've happened

That's what they get for not listening to their mamma. They were so convinced that Michael wouldn't bounce but I think once his success happened, they knew he wouldn't kick it.

No, they KNEW at some point, he was gonna leave. I'm sure they knew that when he was a kid

There's an interview that Marlon and Michael gave during the Destiny Tour where Marlon said "We always tell this one that the most important thing is the last name" So they knew that the time was coming

CBS/Epic was going to dropped them all back in the late seventies thanks to the success of Off The Wall the label decided to keep the group then triumph happend after. Anyway I don't think fans have a problem with the brothers get together to o their own things the fact that they exploting their brother while he was alive and gone and now his children is why they fact don't support or really respect them anymore , I don't think the big music industry cats want to deal with them hence why they get involved with shady business people for projects. I mean his family forged his name on a contract promising that MJ would do a concert with the family which he didn't know of which resulted in a big lawsuit, Randy almost ran his business affairs in the ground in 2005 with the money mj was using to keep up his neverland ranch he spent it up plus he and his friends was trying to pressure MJ to sell his catalog during a vulenerable time That's why randy got fired as an executive on some record label in the 90's b/c he was stealing money. then he sold mj funeral pictures to radaronline, and the other lesser known siblings nowadays can only get some shine is they do interviews talking about Michael and his kids which is really sad to say how important they were in the 70's and early 80's. Jackie, Tito, and Jackie tour is not based on the albums they did as a group its the songs from all of Michael's adult solo album probably with some popular j5 tunes. Its nice they're trying to do their own thing but the fact that this is tour is called the Michael Jackson Tribute Tour is just refelecting that the brothers must feel that they can't be successful whitout including their brother in some way but hey his name bring in the big bucks so why not

bboy87 said:

Timmy84 said:

That's what they get for not listening to their mamma. They were so convinced that Michael wouldn't bounce but I think once his success happened, they knew he wouldn't kick it.

No, they KNEW at some point, he was gonna leave. I'm sure they knew that when he was a kid

There's an interview that Marlon and Michael gave during the Destiny Tour where Marlon said "We always tell this one that the most important thing is the last name" So they knew that the time was coming

Yeah I can see... Mike probably like "yeah that name won't be of much importance when I leave, trust."

Timmy84 said:

bboy87 said:

No, they KNEW at some point, he was gonna leave. I'm sure they knew that when he was a kid

There's an interview that Marlon and Michael gave during the Destiny Tour where Marlon said "We always tell this one that the most important thing is the last name" So they knew that the time was coming

Yeah I can see... Mike probably like "yeah that name won't be of much importance when I leave, trust."

He was gonna stay even after Victory apparently but the tour was the nail in the coffin

and Humanity didn't happen because Randy refused to be anywhere Jermaine and Jermaine refused to be anywhere Randy was....and this was just the preplanning meetings Just a bunch of infighting and conflict of differences

HAPPYPERSON said:

CBS/Epic was going to dropped them all back in the late seventies thanks to the success of Off The Wall the label decided to keep the group then triumph happend after. Anyway I don't think fans have a problem with the brothers get together to o their own things the fact that they exploting their brother while he was alive and gone and now his children is why they fact don't support or really respect them anymore , I don't think the big music industry cats want to deal with them hence why they get involved with shady business people for projects. I mean his family forged his name on a contract promising that MJ would do a concert with the family which he didn't know of which resulted in a big lawsuit, Randy almost ran his business affairs in the ground in 2005 with the money mj was using to keep up his neverland ranch he spent it up plus he and his friends was trying to pressure MJ to sell his catalog during a vulenerable time That's why randy got fired as an executive on some record label in the 90's b/c he was stealing money. then he sold mj funeral pictures to radaronline, and the other lesser known siblings nowadays can only get some shine is they do interviews talking about Michael and his kids which is really sad to say how important they were in the 70's and early 80's. Jackie, Tito, and Jackie tour is not based on the albums they did as a group its the songs from all of Michael's adult solo album probably with some popular j5 tunes. Its nice they're trying to do their own thing but the fact that this is tour is called the Michael Jackson Tribute Tour is just refelecting that the brothers must feel that they can't be successful whitout including their brother in some way but hey his name bring in the big bucks so why not

Actually, they were gonna drop them in '77-78 but Destiny saved them

bboy87 said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah I can see... Mike probably like "yeah that name won't be of much importance when I leave, trust."

He was gonna stay even after Victory apparently but the tour was the nail in the coffin

and Humanity didn't happen because Randy refused to be anywhere Jermaine and Jermaine refused to be anywhere Randy was....and this was just the preplanning meetings Just a bunch of infighting and conflict of differences

I often feel like Michael wanted the brothers to get along and when they weren't he just ventured off into his own world, which probably explains why he always kept mum about reunions. I don't think Randy and Jermaine are ever in the same room anymore. But it ain't like that's anything new: to this day Curtis Womack and Cecil Womack are not in the same room because of Mary Wells. And Cecil is living in Africa last I checked lol Jermaine could be back in Dubai for all we know.

Timmy84 said:

bboy87 said:

He was gonna stay even after Victory apparently but the tour was the nail in the coffin

and Humanity didn't happen because Randy refused to be anywhere Jermaine and Jermaine refused to be anywhere Randy was....and this was just the preplanning meetings Just a bunch of infighting and conflict of differences

I often feel like Michael wanted the brothers to get along and when they weren't he just ventured off into his own world, which probably explains why he always kept mum about reunions. I don't think Randy and Jermaine are ever in the same room anymore. But it ain't like that's anything new: to this day Curtis Womack and Cecil Womack are not in the same room because of Mary Wells. And Cecil is living in Africa last I checked lol Jermaine could be back in Dubai for all we know.

That's actually what I was wondering when I read the title of this thread. WHERE'S JERMAINE?

Randy's not doing it so why isn't he involved?

bboy87 said:

Timmy84 said:

I often feel like Michael wanted the brothers to get along and when they weren't he just ventured off into his own world, which probably explains why he always kept mum about reunions. I don't think Randy and Jermaine are ever in the same room anymore. But it ain't like that's anything new: to this day Curtis Womack and Cecil Womack are not in the same room because of Mary Wells. And Cecil is living in Africa last I checked lol Jermaine could be back in Dubai for all we know.

That's actually what I was wondering when I read the title of this thread. WHERE'S JERMAINE?

Randy's not doing it so why isn't he involved?

I don't think Jackie, Tito and Marlon trust Jermaine with anything. They were apparently at odds while making their reality show and don't forget that tribute concert in Wales this year.

Timmy84 said:

but who knows? We don't live with them so how would we know what was supposed to happen?

Exactly. That's why most of the discussions, speculations and accusations, especially on the last page of this thread, are moot and bs, since none of us knows what is really going on in this family behind closed doors.... but everyone is so quick blaming this one or that one.

Mike with his brothers had something special and it would have been great if the group had endured. But the family dynamics in that particular family wasn't gonna let it fly.

Joe said the reason MJ couldn't continue with the brothers was because they weren't as invested, as driven or as hard working as Mike. It wasn't just a matter of talent. But it was that plus the fact that when it came to making decisions concerning the group, Mike had almost no sway. He was always the kid brother. And him being how he was didn't help, if he had the personality like Jermaine's it could have turned out very differently. Mike tried for a bit and decided to give it up.

IMHO, everybody lost.

[Edited 12/29/11 15:47pm]

Timmy84 said:

I often feel like Michael wanted the brothers to get along and when they weren't he just ventured off into his own world

That's how I always felt

[Edited 12/29/11 15:51pm]

bboy87 said:

CANUHELPME said:

Songs like Lovely One, This Place Hotel, and Be Not Always would not have been included on his solo albums. I think he could have released more creative music through the group.

He did not have to work with the hottest producer. He could have taken chances on a Jacksons album.

I understand you and many others love MJ the megastar. I just wish his die hard fans and Sony would embrace his entire career.

Maybe not Lovely One and Heartbreak Hotel and Be Not Always definitely would've been on his solo albums. Heartbreak Hotel was the song that influenced Billie Jean, Dirty Diana, Wanna Be Startin' Somthin'. Rod Temperton tried to top Heartbreak Hotel and the result was Starlight.....aka Thriller

and Be Not Always was right up his alley

I agree with you about Billie Jean and Dirty Diana. I think All Night Dancin' gave him the rock n roll edge to write Beat It. I also think the John Loungo remix of Shake Your Body influenced Don't Stop Til You Get Enough and The Things I Do For You influenced Workin Day And Night.

CANUHELPME said:

bboy87 said:

Maybe not Lovely One and Heartbreak Hotel and Be Not Always definitely would've been on his solo albums. Heartbreak Hotel was the song that influenced Billie Jean, Dirty Diana, Wanna Be Startin' Somthin'. Rod Temperton tried to top Heartbreak Hotel and the result was Starlight.....aka Thriller

and Be Not Always was right up his alley

I agree with you about Billie Jean and Dirty Diana. I think All Night Dancin' gave him the rock n roll edge to write Beat It. I also think the John Loungo remix of Shake Your Body influenced Don't Stop Til You Get Enough and The Things I Do For You influenced Workin Day And Night.

Michael actually wrote Workin' Day And Night for Destiny but held it off so there's definitely similarities

bboy87 said:

CANUHELPME said:

I agree with you about Billie Jean and Dirty Diana. I think All Night Dancin' gave him the rock n roll edge to write Beat It. I also think the John Loungo remix of Shake Your Body influenced Don't Stop Til You Get Enough and The Things I Do For You influenced Workin Day And Night.

Michael actually wrote Workin' Day And Night for Destiny but held it off so there's definitely similarities

HAPPYPERSON said:

CBS/Epic was going to dropped them all back in the late seventies thanks to the success of Off The Wall the label decided to keep the group then triumph happend after. Anyway I don't think fans have a problem with the brothers get together to o their own things the fact that they exploting their brother while he was alive and gone and now his children is why they fact don't support or really respect them anymore , I don't think the big music industry cats want to deal with them hence why they get involved with shady business people for projects. I mean his family forged his name on a contract promising that MJ would do a concert with the family which he didn't know of which resulted in a big lawsuit, Randy almost ran his business affairs in the ground in 2005 with the money mj was using to keep up his neverland ranch he spent it up plus he and his friends was trying to pressure MJ to sell his catalog during a vulenerable time That's why randy got fired as an executive on some record label in the 90's b/c he was stealing money. then he sold mj funeral pictures to radaronline, and the other lesser known siblings nowadays can only get some shine is they do interviews talking about Michael and his kids which is really sad to say how important they were in the 70's and early 80's. Jackie, Tito, and Jackie tour is not based on the albums they did as a group its the songs from all of Michael's adult solo album probably with some popular j5 tunes. Its nice they're trying to do their own thing but the fact that this is tour is called the Michael Jackson Tribute Tour is just refelecting that the brothers must feel that they can't be successful whitout including their brother in some way but hey his name bring in the big bucks so why not

in a nutshell, exactly. did mj have a god-complex? maybe. do some people like him better when he was with his brothers than a solo artist? i guess; i've only ever been interested in mj so even when he was with his brothers it was always about him, for me.

however, mj didn't need, and more to the point, didn't WANT to deal with his brothers anymore. he did a medley of j5 hits at his concerts to keep the j5/jackson fans happy but remember: even as thriller was climbing the charts, he told berry gordy that he would only appear on motown 25 IF he could perform 'billie jean'. just before he began to perform, he said something like, 'i like the old songs, but i prefer the new ones.'

mj knew his future was in front of him, not behind him. family or not, no one should have to tether themselves to people that they've outgrown. mj outgrew his brothers, full stop. some will argue that they didn't like his music as much, which is their right, but mj followed his own path, which was his right. i think it's silly to argue that if only he'd stayed with his family, he wouldn't have had the problems that he had. it's clear mj had problems with his family, that's why he left, that's why he didn't want to deal with them, that's why he shut them out, etc. you can't blame what eventually happened to him on the fact that he left his family. two entirely different things. judging by the way he was treated by his own family, which happyperson alludes to above, i don't know why people think 'outside' folks were mj's problem. everyone was going to be a problem for him at some point b/c greed and envy are powerful forces that don't respect blood or family 'loyalty', trust.

i've always felt that mj's problem was that he WAS related to his former group members. mary wilson couldn't pull the "but we're your family" bullshit with diana to guilt her back into the supremes. mj was made to feel guilty for being better than his brothers and leaving. that's why he allowed his mother to shake him down every month to feed and clothe kids that weren't his, and put a roof over the heads of grown ass men. still, he preferred to pay that blood money rather than tour with his brothers and give them 'jobs', which should tell you how much he didn't want to be bothered with them.

If he remained with his brothers he would not have went on the way he did. As was mentioned, I see hims doing the Phil Collins route, by doing a solo and then a group things. His family, though with some normal drama, would have kept him grounded. They would have also fed off each other so the material would be solid as well. (I mean look at the revisionist history of the then maligned Victory and how its been given higher status here over the past decade...yeah Ive read those posts). Ego swole head symdrome will make you do some stupid shit. And I aint even talking about the sharing your bed with kids steelo. Continued work with his brothers would have changed a lot of the ridiculous outlier bs. Hell, he knew it too.

Thats my opinion and I believe in it lol.

Is anyone going to see this... honestly? Haha

rdhull said:

If he remained with his brothers he would not have went on the way he did. As was mentioned, I see hims doing the Phil Collins route, by doing a solo and then a group things. His family, though with some normal drama, would have kept him grounded. They would have also fed off each other so the material would be solid as well. (I mean look at the revisionist history of the then maligned Victory and how its been given higher status here over the past decade...yeah Ive read those posts). Ego swole head symdrome will make you do some stupid shit. And I aint even talking about the sharing your bed with kids steelo. Continued work with his brothers would have changed a lot of the ridiculous outlier bs. Hell, he knew it too.

Thats my opinion and I believe in it lol.

I respect your opinion but at the same time, that's just how it was supposed to be, by the time the Victory Tour came along, the atmosphere was different. Michael's, as you call it "ego swole head syndrome" wasn't the problem, but also Jermaine, Randy, Marlon, and Tito's (Jackie wasn't on the tour after Enid hit him with the car) ego were factors and then bad decisions come into play, and the tour was a mess. Let's not forget Joe Jackson in general

I too would've loved to see him work with the brothers after '84 but for various reasons, he and Marlon threw up the dueces and left

Bad decisions and the brothers' constant beef is the reason why everytime they were slated to reunite, the project fell apart shortly after they planned it

-2300 Jackson Street: Michael and Marlon weren't apart of it. Randy was involved but Jackie and Jermaine couldn't get along and Tito was busy doing other stuff

-the Humanity album: Michael agreed to do the album and possible tour but Jermaine and Randy were beefing and refused to have anything to do with each other, plus it was slated to be released on A&M THEN Randy's label.....and just fell apart

-The brothers were supposed to do a reunion around the time Michael was going through the second allegations, but with THAT going on AND the brothers (Randy, Jackie, and Jermaine) beefing, it fell apart AGAIN

and not to mention the times they signed contracts for reunion tours without Michael's consent....

-

^ That's it in a nutshell. I can understand what rd and some folks are saying but it ain't that simple as bboy put it... the family has always been in a sea of chaos, it wasn't just Michael, you had 10 other parties too (the siblings, the parents, etc.).

The family is at toxic as anything else MJ dealt with after Thriller. Always looking and expecting money cause he was family. Bunch of damn gold diggers who now are gleefully putting their talons into those 3 kids.

Timmy84 said:

^ That's it in a nutshell. I can understand what rd and some folks are saying but it ain't that simple as bboy put it... the family has always been in a sea of chaos, it wasn't just Michael, you had 10 other parties too (the siblings, the parents, etc.).

yep. how can anyone talk about the brothers keeping mj 'grounded' when hardly any of them were? hello ... jermaine! talk about ego. please ... who's ever been able to keep him grounded? yet mj was supposed to stay and deal with all that crap? whatever.

kibbles said:

Timmy84 said:

^ That's it in a nutshell. I can understand what rd and some folks are saying but it ain't that simple as bboy put it... the family has always been in a sea of chaos, it wasn't just Michael, you had 10 other parties too (the siblings, the parents, etc.).

yep. how can anyone talk about the brothers keeping mj 'grounded' when hardly any of them were? hello ... jermaine! talk about ego. please ... who's ever been able to keep him grounded? yet mj was supposed to stay and deal with all that crap? whatever.

Im not saying the brothers were all mentally sound with no imperfections of their own. And Im not talking about Jermaine being part of it. And when they all would flip, each could check each other.But MJ leaving also left a void for them to act a fool etc. And if MJ stayed, things would have been dramatic behind the scenes still but they would have been possibly intact instead of each individual really escalating into extreme inappropriate behavior imo. And as I initally meant MJ in my posts, he damn sure wouldn't have pulled that hyperbaric(sp?) chamber, Dumbo-mans bones, etc that kept leading him to such instability.

rdhull said:

If he remained with his brothers he would not have went on the way he did. As was mentioned, I see hims doing the Phil Collins route, by doing a solo and then a group things. His family, though with some normal drama, would have kept him grounded. They would have also fed off each other so the material would be solid as well. (I mean look at the revisionist history of the then maligned Victory and how its been given higher status here over the past decade...yeah Ive read those posts). Ego swole head symdrome will make you do some stupid shit. And I aint even talking about the sharing your bed with kids steelo. Continued work with his brothers would have changed a lot of the ridiculous outlier bs. Hell, he knew it too.

Thats my opinion and I believe in it lol.

1. there is nothing normal about their drama. brothers sleeping with the same ho and having kids with her is not normal drama. bringing said ho to your mama's house in the first place and proceeding to lay up there with her is not normal, either. would you want to be around that shit or have your kids around that shit just b/c they're your brothers? where do you draw the line?

2. from what i understand from the reality show, the brothers couldn't even work together in the studio, erasing tapes and arguing over who was going to sing lead. they would have been fighting over whose song got made, who got credit, etc., and they would have become increasingly jealous of mj b/c as soul alive said, anyone coming to any jackson concert after otw or thriller would have been coming to see mj, and mj only. the brothers became glorified back up singers, not partners. it's not the same as phil collins and genesis. no one thinks of the other members of genesis as backup singers. whether you or the brothers want to admit it, that's what they are.

3. i've not seen anyone giving big ups to the victory tour except to say they want to see certain mj-centric performances, b/c as i alluded to above, people going to that tour were going to see mj, NOT his brothers. anyone giving ups for any other reason apparently didn't live through that crap. speaking of ego 'swole', the brothers wouldn't even ride together in cars on the way to the stadiums during the victory tour. are you going to put all of that solely on mj's shoulders or do the other brothers have some responsibility for the lack of 'groundedness' as well?

4. mj was already dealing with ridiculous outlier bs - WITHIN HIS FAMILY. right after his death, a reporter with san jose mercury news (i believe) wrote about how his damn sis-in-law, enid, jackie's wife, was stealing mj's things out of hayvenhurst to give to him so that he could write a tell-all about mj back in the late 80s. she even snuck him into the jacksons' grandfather's funeral. that was his "family", his brother's wife who had known him since he was a teenager. and what about the way randy tried to screw him only a few years before he died? so again, the so-called outlier bs was always inside mj's own house.

rdhull said:

kibbles said:

yep. how can anyone talk about the brothers keeping mj 'grounded' when hardly any of them were? hello ... jermaine! talk about ego. please ... who's ever been able to keep him grounded? yet mj was supposed to stay and deal with all that crap? whatever.

Im not saying the brothers were all mentally sound with no imperfections of their own. And Im not talking about Jermaine being part of it. And when they all would flip, each could check each other.But MJ leaving also left a void for them to act a fool etc. And if MJ stayed, things would have been dramatic behind the scenes still but they would have been possibly intact instead of each individual really escalating into extreme inappropriate behavior imo. And as I initally meant MJ in my posts, he damn sure wouldn't have pulled that hyperbaric(sp?) chamber, Dumbo-mans bones, etc that kept leading him to such instability.

I get what you're saying. I think Michael leaving caused the dynamics to crumble. It got worse and worse....and BAM! they're refusing to work with each other, one brother is talking about the other in a song, and another brother goes and fucks his other brother's baby momma...just a series of shit

bboy87 said:

rdhull said:

Im not saying the brothers were all mentally sound with no imperfections of their own. And Im not talking about Jermaine being part of it. And when they all would flip, each could check each other.But MJ leaving also left a void for them to act a fool etc. And if MJ stayed, things would have been dramatic behind the scenes still but they would have been possibly intact instead of each individual really escalating into extreme inappropriate behavior imo. And as I initally meant MJ in my posts, he damn sure wouldn't have pulled that hyperbaric(sp?) chamber, Dumbo-mans bones, etc that kept leading him to such instability.

I get what you're saying. I think Michael leaving caused the dynamics to crumble. It got worse and worse....and BAM! they're refusing to work with each other, one brother is talking about the other in a song, and another brother goes and fucks his other brother's baby momma...just a series of shit

You are a good person.