angel345 said:

Tremolina said:

For example, at the moment I have a client, singer/songwriter/musician, tied to an exclusive agreement with a major music publisher. He is very talented, makes great music, but they are not promoting him. On the other hand, he doesn't do what he is supposed to be doing either. He wants to get out of it, but they don't want to let him go without them keeping all his copyrights.

What is he supposed to be doing, if I may ask? Touring?

Let's just keep it at that he doesn't do everything he is supposed to do either.

leonche64 said:

Tremolina said:

For example, at the moment I have a client, singer/songwriter/musician, tied to an exclusive agreement with a major music publisher. He is very talented, makes great music, but they are not promoting him. On the other hand, he doesn't do what he is supposed to be doing either. He wants to get out of it, but they don't want to let him go without them keeping all his copyrights.

Once again, information comes out at the end, that would have shone a different light in the beggining. You are such a tease.

haha, well, I do not make a habit out of first telling what I do. many people also kinda expect me to pop up in these sort of threats.

[Edited 11/16/11 5:29am]

leonche64 said:

Tremolina said:

That's interesting. Do you release music there?

I have a band that gigs regionally and as a fill/support musician for international acts. I have played in support of Coco Lee, The Wonder Girls, Beyonce in Shaghai in 2007, Jay Chou, and a few others. Hong Kong and mainland China, where we are based, is night and day. Releasing music here is an entirely different animal. If you were to print a traditional cd, you would be able to find it at a bootleg booth a week before your release date. We sell/give away our original music at live shows in thumb drives.

Exactly. Ask a Chinese person about 'copyright' or 'intellectual property' and they will most likely look at you as if you're speaking Chinese to them! lol

Culturally and economically copyright doesn't mean a thing there. One more war the industry is trying to fight. Did you know that China DOES need to protect IP rights because of WTO treaties?

Tremolina said:

angel345 said:

Worth seeing because the industry is sinking to the lowest denominator.

I can guarantee you that it will be very interesting. Possibly even some true powershifts and positive changes will occur within the industry because of it.

Could you explain what exactly might happen and how that might happen? Which parties should take which steps in order to get where etc?

I hope I'm not sucking you dry, but I'm seriously interested in all this and would be happy if you could share some more information.

^ No problem Dave, this is a topic I have a lot of passion for, so feel free to ask me whatever.

If you are really interested, just google the org on 2013 and copyright and there will pop up many threads that have dealt with that issue already. Recently I talked extensively about it on this thread: http://prince.org/msg/8/3...?&pg=1 Check it out.

What is likely to happen in the US starting in 2013 and then ongoing, is that many songwriters and recording artists will get back the copyrights to their respective songs and recordings post 1977. Especially many famous and established artists will try to do this, which means that the music industry in the US is under serious threat of losing a lot of its bread and butter.

When you add to that the already severe losses in record sales, which are likely to only deepen further in the near future, it is unlikely that the industry would survive such an ordeal.

Companies will start to fall and the industry will be forced to adapt to the internet and the ways of making and releasing music in the 21st century.

How it will start to look exactly and how much time it will all take, is hard to tell. But it is going on already, so it could happen sooner than you think.

[Edited 11/17/11 13:08pm]

weird, when i post that link it goes to a thread about roger sanchez

http://prince.org/msg/8/3...?&pg=1

Tremolina said:

angel345 said:

Worth seeing because the industry is sinking to the lowest denominator.

I can guarantee you that it will be very interesting. Possibly even some true powershifts and positive changes will occur within the industry because of it.

Change is needed

Tremolina said:

angel345 said:

What is he supposed to be doing, if I may ask? Touring?

Let's just keep it at that he doesn't do everything he is supposed to do either.

Ok.

Tremolina said:

leonche64 said:

I have a band that gigs regionally and as a fill/support musician for international acts. I have played in support of Coco Lee, The Wonder Girls, Beyonce in Shaghai in 2007, Jay Chou, and a few others. Hong Kong and mainland China, where we are based, is night and day. Releasing music here is an entirely different animal. If you were to print a traditional cd, you would be able to find it at a bootleg booth a week before your release date. We sell/give away our original music at live shows in thumb drives.

Exactly. Ask a Chinese person about 'copyright' or 'intellectual property' and they will most likely look at you as if you're speaking Chinese to them! lol

Culturally and economically copyright doesn't mean a thing there. One more war the industry is trying to fight. Did you know that China DOES need to protect IP rights because of WTO treaties?

Try that here in America, and you're fined or going to jail It's called piracy, right?

[Edited 11/16/11 9:41am]

Tremolina said:

http://prince.org/msg/8/3...?&pg=1

Well hello Roger

Expect to see new forms of copy protection to arise out of nowhere (until they are cracked).

360 degree deals will be the ONLY record deals given.

More consumers will be sued by companies.

SSDD.

Tremolina said:

leonche64 said:

I have a band that gigs regionally and as a fill/support musician for international acts. I have played in support of Coco Lee, The Wonder Girls, Beyonce in Shaghai in 2007, Jay Chou, and a few others. Hong Kong and mainland China, where we are based, is night and day. Releasing music here is an entirely different animal. If you were to print a traditional cd, you would be able to find it at a bootleg booth a week before your release date. We sell/give away our original music at live shows in thumb drives.

Exactly. Ask a Chinese person about 'copyright' or 'intellectual property' and they will most likely look at you as if you're speaking Chinese to them! lol

Culturally and economically copyright doesn't mean a thing there. One more war the industry is trying to fight. Did you know that China DOES need to protect IP rights because of WTO treaties?

Ha hahahaha.

You hit it right on the head. For the MOST part, these are good people that I live among. But as a society, they have no moral compass. When it comes to business, if they can't think of a reason NOT to screw you over, they will. The govt pays the proper lip service, but does little besides photo op bull-dozing of unsaleable DVD's.

angel345 said:

It's called piracy, right?

Yup. Like those guys from Somalia, who go out on litle boats with weapons to rob trading vessels.

angel345 said:

Tremolina said:

http://prince.org/msg/8/3...?&pg=1

Well hello Roger

I swear the RIAA is behind this

BlaqueKnight said:

Expect to see new forms of copy protection to arise out of nowhere (until they are cracked).

360 degree deals will be the ONLY record deals given.

More consumers will be sued by companies.

SSDD.

Some standard protection measures, not interfering with the users comfort, may be expected. But if it sucks, like it has done so far, people will simply not buy it.

360 degree deals are already the standard and have been for quite some time. It's those deals - in fact - that will have to change.

More consumers getting sued = more revenues lost. Another strategy already proven to have failed. Some exceptions provided, I wouldn't count on it.

leonche64 said:

Tremolina said:

Exactly. Ask a Chinese person about 'copyright' or 'intellectual property' and they will most likely look at you as if you're speaking Chinese to them! lol

Culturally and economically copyright doesn't mean a thing there. One more war the industry is trying to fight. Did you know that China DOES need to protect IP rights because of WTO treaties?

Ha hahahaha.

You hit it right on the head. For the MOST part, these are good people that I live among. But as a society, they have no moral compass. When it comes to business, if they can't think of a reason NOT to screw you over, they will. The govt pays the proper lip service, but does little besides photo op bull-dozing of unsaleable DVD's.

I don't know about screwing you over perse. My impression is more that Chinese people think sort of the opposite as we do. They don't care about copyright and don't understand it either. They see it as an honour when your work is copied en masse and they don't expect to be paid for it.

We on the other hand...

Which is not to say - of course- that the chinese government doesn't realize the importance of intellectual property to western countries.

So, in return of being allowed to join the WTO and profit (massively) from world trade, China promised to uphold IP rights. But what are they going to do when 1,5 billion Chinese do not even know what that means and when more and more of them can download whatever on their computer? Or when they can walk to the corner to any store for counterfeited material? And that does not just concern music; also movies, computer software and games, fashion (trademark and design rights) and technological inventions (patents) etc.

1,5 BILLION people. The perfect excuse really, to copy (or 'steal') everything; any work, trademark or invention, and thereby mess with and profit on a massive scale from western (trade) interests in intellectual property rights.

[Edited 11/17/11 15:08pm]

This begs the questions:

Will globalisation - next to the internet (which is the ultimate form of it) - change the way we perceive intellectual property for good?

And: Will the industry be able to adapt and survive, or will it go down in a global pool of greed, incompetence and piracy?

Or: Will we, including China who knows how, "crack down" on the internet and the billions of people with their computers who make it?

[Edited 11/17/11 15:15pm]

Tremolina said:

angel345 said:

It's called piracy, right?

Yup. Like those guys from Somalia, who go out on litle boats with weapons to rob trading vessels.

Or the Pirates Of The Carribean It does remind you of pirates

Tremolina said:

angel345 said:

Well hello Roger

I swear the RIAA is behind this

I dunno, but I noticed sometimes when I clicked to old links here, it leads me to "Ginuine Talks About Prince"

Tremolina said:

Which is not to say - of course- that the chinese government doesn't realize the importance of intellectual property to western countries.

So, in return of being allowed to join the WTO and profit (massively) from world trade, China promised to uphold IP rights. But what are they going to do when 1,5 billion Chinese do not even know what that means and when more and more of them can download whatever on their computer? Or when they can walk to the corner to any store for counterfeited material? And that does not just concern music; also movies, computer software and games, fashion (trademark and design rights) and technological inventions (patents) etc.

1,5 BILLION people. The perfect excuse really, to copy (or 'steal') everything; any work, trademark or invention, and thereby mess with and profit on a massive scale from western (trade) interests in intellectual property rights.

[Edited 11/17/11 15:08pm]

Boy, you must of read my mind because I was just thinking about infringement issues in the fashion industry. Upscale labels like Gucci, Chanel, or Louis Vuitton are suing auction sites like Ebay for allowing customers to sell knock-off goods on their sites. Most of them are from China. Some sites turn the blind eye because they're profiting through their ridiculous fees.

I meant to say sellers of such sites as Ebay. You can even go to Chinatown, especially in NYC for knockoffs, yet if a street vendor is caught selling them, they are fined or jailed. Same goes for tapes and CD's.

angel345 said:

I meant to say sellers of such sites as Ebay. You can even go to Chinatown, especially in NYC for knockoffs, yet if a street vendor is caught selling them, they are fined or jailed. Same goes for tapes and CD's.

Indeed. In som european countries you see a lot of street vendors with counterfeit material. Whenever the police is chasing them, you can see them running with their stuff through the streets. It's all a silly game.

Tremolina said:

angel345 said:

I meant to say sellers of such sites as Ebay. You can even go to Chinatown, especially in NYC for knockoffs, yet if a street vendor is caught selling them, they are fined or jailed. Same goes for tapes and CD's.

Indeed. In som european countries you see a lot of street vendors with counterfeit material. Whenever the police is chasing them, you can see them running with their stuff through the streets. It's all a silly game.

It sure is a silly game

Tremolina said:

angel345 said:

I meant to say sellers of such sites as Ebay. You can even go to Chinatown, especially in NYC for knockoffs, yet if a street vendor is caught selling them, they are fined or jailed. Same goes for tapes and CD's.

Indeed. In som european countries you see a lot of street vendors with counterfeit material. Whenever the police is chasing them, you can see them running with their stuff through the streets. It's all a silly game.

check this out

By Associated Press, Published: November 12

HONOLULU — A small group of executives from some of the largest U.S. companies met privately with Chinese President Hu Jintao on the sidelines of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation CEO Summit to discuss trade, protecting intellectual property rights and challenges facing the world’s two largest economies.

The United States last year sold $92 billion worth of goods and services to China, making it the U.S.’s third biggest export market. However, China has struggled to deal with a culture of a rampant piracy and the widespread production of bogus goods. Trade groups say illegal Chinese copying of music, designer clothing and other goods costs legitimate producers billions every year in lost potential sales.

http://www.bloomberg.com/...-back.html

Tremolina said:

check this out

By Associated Press, Published: November 12

HONOLULU — A small group of executives from some of the largest U.S. companies met privately with Chinese President Hu Jintao on the sidelines of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation CEO Summit to discuss trade, protecting intellectual property rights and challenges facing the world’s two largest economies.

The United States last year sold $92 billion worth of goods and services to China, making it the U.S.’s third biggest export market. However, China has struggled to deal with a culture of a rampant piracy and the widespread production of bogus goods. Trade groups say illegal Chinese copying of music, designer clothing and other goods costs legitimate producers billions every year in lost potential sales.

http://www.bloomberg.com/...-back.html

Well, it looks like the US is making an attempt to discuss this worldwide issue with China, concerning piracy. The article also states that it's going to be a slow progress. While it benefits the Chinese, the US businesses are taking a loss, but so are the creators.

^

Actually, the US has been "discussing" the piracy issue with China for more than a decade already. In fact, since they joined the WTO is not so much "discussing", but more like telling them to take more action against it. But like I said: what is China really going to do against an army of 1,5 billion Chinese ignorant about copyright and raised with the idea that you should pay little to nothing for music, movies, games, fashion etc.

Moreover, US (or other) businesses are not really taking any losses. What they are talking about are "billions in lost potential sales". This refers to some fuzzy math and estimates they made about how much they would make when all these chinese would not buy counterfeit, but the original material (10-100 times worth more). This of course is not reasonable because even when the chinese would put an end to all the counterfeiteing (which is not possible but suppose) then that still doesn't mean all these chinese would buy the original.

It's simply not their culture to do that, except for the 'nouveau riche' perhabs, but not the 1,5 billion ordinary chinese.

Tremolina said:

^

Actually, the US has been "discussing" the piracy issue with China for more than a decade already. In fact, since they joined the WTO is not so much "discussing", but more like telling them to take more action against it. But like I said: what is China really going to do against an army of 1,5 billion Chinese ignorant about copyright and raised with the idea that you should pay little to nothing for music, movies, games, fashion etc.

Moreover, US (or other) businesses are not really taking any losses. What they are talking about are "billions in lost potential sales". This refers to some fuzzy math and estimates they made about how much they would make when all these chinese would not buy counterfeit, but the original material (10-100 times worth more). This of course is not reasonable because even when the chinese would put an end to all the counterfeiteing (which is not possible but suppose) then that still doesn't mean all these chinese would buy the original.

It's simply not their culture to do that, except for the 'nouveau riche' perhabs, but not the 1,5 billion ordinary chinese.

I see. They just want more profit than what they're getting. I thought these were actual losses. So, even if the Chinese don't buy the original products, there's still a potential lost. Looks like an two-edge sword.