MickyDolenz said:

suga10 said:

He did- I think it started more with Dirty Diana, but I think Dangerous fully highlighted it.

How is that? There's only two songs on Dangerous that could be considered rock at all, and to me only Give In To Me is really rock that might have gotten play on a AOR station. Black Or White is more pop sounding with a C+C Music Factory type dance beat. I guess that's why they did the remixes.

"Black or White" was pop rock but there was too much of a dance influence (and hip-hop and light funk influenced) to be a full-fledged "rock" song. In fact "Give Into Me" was the only rock song in the album. Everything else was either R&B, new jack-influenced dance-pop, or pop in general.

Uhh, isn't The Fame just warmed over Kyle Minouge?

MJJstudent said:

i'm gonna have to respectfully agree to dis-agree, my man... not because it's michael we're talking about either... i think 'dangerous' is the only new-jack era album i could even listen to... he made the genre actually sound decent, even if it had been done prior. that is, to me, teddy riley's best work of all times. for 'bad', very few people of that stature (besides prince) were still merging genres. HIStory was one of the few popular albums to have a strong socio-political stance on the state of corporatism, the government, etc. and invincible proved that he could rock with cats half his age. i appreciat that he was able to open his artistic mind and do these things.

perhaps i'm misinterpreting what you are saying, my brother. i guess i'm not looking at thriller and off the wall at music changers in terms of his own career. i think in terms of marketing they were, but not because of any other albums he subsequently released... but this is coming from someone who actually thinks his albums post-thriller are better, so...

Timmy84 said:

In terms of Michael, only OTW and Thriller can be considered music changers. Bad and Dangerous were albums that had great music but just continued the path of OTW and Thriller

Michael’s my favorite singer but no.. Dangerous is one of my favorite albums from him too but I would even pick Bobby Brown over him in general as far as New Jack Swing.

These are modern-day Gospel music changers.

[Edited 4/9/11 21:59pm]

MickyDolenz said:

Timmy84 said:

^ Dangerous is a great album, don't get me wrong. But as far as new jack swing goes, I can't even give Michael the credit here. That goes to Bobby Brown/Guy/Teddy Riley.

There's also Kyle West & Al B. Sure!. Yeah, by the time Dangerous was released, New Jack Swing was just about dead. Mike didn't make it more popular. Mainly the only people who hype Dangerous were MJ fans (mainly in non-US countries) who weren't exposed to New Jack.

[Edited 4/9/11 14:11pm]

i don't know about others who posted dangerous... i don't think it broke any new ground technically, since new jack had been popularized since the mid to late 1980s. for me, dangerous happens to be the BEST new jack record.

as i stated earlier, i hate the genre with a passion, save a handful of songs. being from new york city, new jack was EVERYWHERE in its infancy and its hype, and it made me wanna throw up every time i heard it. i actually own some of those albums (for the times i used to regularly spin out), and i like playing some of that stuff to get a laugh... but i hate that al b sure! album. i hated when new edition went new jack, when they added johnny gill. i hate bell biv devoe. i hate guy, keith sweat, father mc, most things on uptown records- except for heavy d and mary, hee hee... i hate the fact that music went in that direction.

had riley, bernard belle, etc. done new jack the way it was done on dangerous, i'd actually like the genre. maybe it actually needed to die in order for it to be good. just my opinion. to me, that album had more warmth (in terms of engineering, production, etc.) than anything to come out of the genre. and yeah i'll admit, it helped that it was michael, whose voice carries a lot more warmth than damien hall, johnny kemp, etc.

MickyDolenz said:

Timmy84 said:

Yep. Boy did alright commercially (my first recollection of Boy was through his "Got My Mind on a Trip" song, BET used to play the video the year it came out) but Aretha and James BOMBED. Especially poor Aretha. Arista was really selling her low.

By the way, Aretha's "Never Loved a Man the Way I Love You" definitely needs to be named as a music changer. This album set the path for female artists in R&B/soul music.

The brothers also did New Jack on 2300 Jackson Street (and so did Randy on his album with The Gypsys), which came out 2 years before Dangerous. I think with James is that the balladeer type R&B/pop singing he was known for was dying out, and it was an attempt to get radio play. Old funk groups like Gap Band, Cameo, Midnight Star, and the Bar Kays were also making New Jack Swing during that time. They didn't really fare much better. When people like Celine Dion started releasing New Jack style singles, you know it was worn out.

[Edited 4/9/11 15:09pm]

the thing with that is, they were a major influence on new jack, so why would they even go and try to do that? they were fine the way they were, then they went and messed up with new jack. same with isley brothers (specifically, ronald isley). why did people wanna go the r kelly/teddy riley route, when they both suck?

just my opinion, folks...

MickyDolenz said:

suga10 said:

He brought out this new side of himself never seen before- with the rock image mixed in with his own Pop image.

Didn't he do this with Beat It & Dirty Diana? State Of Shock by the Jacksons was a Rolling Stones type jam. You can even say older songs like All Night Dancin' and I Am Love have sort of a rock vibe.

so does 'destiny'... that was rock-country, if you will, similar to tony joe white, maybe? or even the allman brothers. and 'state of shock' for sure was a stones rip... michael even jacked the 'go'on' from jagger that he used in some songs, like 'D.S.', and of course, 'state of shock'.

sosgemini said:

Whomever posted the Craig David, Dangerous and TTD albums need to be slapped. Despite my love for TTD, he didn't inspire other artist.

Here's my contribution:

We have this one to thank for all the Alanis Morisette angst and the Lilith Fair whiny white girl movement.

oooh, you have a great point there.

MickyDolenz said:

suga10 said:

He did- I think it started more with Dirty Diana, but I think Dangerous fully highlighted it.

How is that? There's only two songs on Dangerous that could be considered rock at all, and to me only Give In To Me is really rock that might have gotten play on a AOR station. Black Or White is more pop sounding with a C+C Music Factory type dance beat. I guess that's why they did the remixes.

where the main riff sounds like mellencamp... HA!

I never understood the concept of "New Jack Swing" . So many genres, and I love such a wide variety, at some point I just write it all off as "music".

minneapolisFunq said:

MJJstudent said:

what about THIS:

that 'believe' song is what popularized it, even though the jamaicans (and a few others) had been using autotune as an effect prior to the mark taylor-production.

[Edited 4/9/11 2:21am]

Just because she was the first to score a mainstream hit with Autotune does not mean that she 'popularized' it.

People had no idea what Autotune was then, and it wasn't until T-Pain that it caught on.

didn't they end up calling it 'the cher effect' though?

PDogz said:

I never understood the concept of "New Jack Swing" . So many genres, and I love such a wide variety, at some point I just write it all off as "music".

Good music at that.

MJJstudent said:

MickyDolenz said:

How is that? There's only two songs on Dangerous that could be considered rock at all, and to me only Give In To Me is really rock that might have gotten play on a AOR station. Black Or White is more pop sounding with a C+C Music Factory type dance beat. I guess that's why they did the remixes.

where the main riff sounds like mellencamp... HA!

EXACTLY! Not to mention, C and C were the hottest production team at the time and had just come off of a HUGE string of hits. Also, they were on the same parent label, so Tommy Matolla may have had some influence in that.

babybugz said:

MJJstudent said:

i'm gonna have to respectfully agree to dis-agree, my man... not because it's michael we're talking about either... i think 'dangerous' is the only new-jack era album i could even listen to... he made the genre actually sound decent, even if it had been done prior. that is, to me, teddy riley's best work of all times. for 'bad', very few people of that stature (besides prince) were still merging genres. HIStory was one of the few popular albums to have a strong socio-political stance on the state of corporatism, the government, etc. and invincible proved that he could rock with cats half his age. i appreciat that he was able to open his artistic mind and do these things.

perhaps i'm misinterpreting what you are saying, my brother. i guess i'm not looking at thriller and off the wall at music changers in terms of his own career. i think in terms of marketing they were, but not because of any other albums he subsequently released... but this is coming from someone who actually thinks his albums post-thriller are better, so...

Michael’s my favorite singer but no.. Dangerous is one of my favorite albums from him too but I would even pick Bobby Brown over him in general as far as New Jack Swing.

i never got into bobby brown post-new edition... and again, i HATE new jack. it's too cold and mechanic for me. michael (in my opinion) made it sound warm. this is teddy's best work.

daPrettyman said:

MJJstudent said:

where the main riff sounds like mellencamp... HA!

EXACTLY! Not to mention, C and C were the hottest production team at the time and had just come off of a HUGE string of hits. Also, they were on the same parent label, so Tommy Matolla may have had some influence in that.

C&C did a 'black or white' official remix... martha wash also has a one degree of separation between michael and cliviles and cole too... people need to give her more respect!

MickyDolenz said:

Although "smooth jazz" existed before this album, it was pretty much the first one that really caught on with mainstream listeners.

Ohhh my gosh, YESSSSSS!

MJJstudent said:

daPrettyman said:

EXACTLY! Not to mention, C and C were the hottest production team at the time and had just come off of a HUGE string of hits. Also, they were on the same parent label, so Tommy Matolla may have had some influence in that.

C&C did a 'black or white' official remix... martha wash also has a one degree of separation between michael and cliviles and cole too... people need to give her more respect!

I remember the C&C mix very well. They played it on the radio the same time Word to the Crap leaked.

That's the only rock thing about BOW - the riff from Slash. Don't make it a rock record.

I love Michael to death but come on if we're gonna call a spade a spade, we might as well just say BOW is just a mixture of a lot of sounds. It's got rock elements sure but it's not fully one.

MJJstudent said:

MickyDolenz said:

The brothers also did New Jack on 2300 Jackson Street (and so did Randy on his album with The Gypsys), which came out 2 years before Dangerous. I think with James is that the balladeer type R&B/pop singing he was known for was dying out, and it was an attempt to get radio play. Old funk groups like Gap Band, Cameo, Midnight Star, and the Bar Kays were also making New Jack Swing during that time. They didn't really fare much better. When people like Celine Dion started releasing New Jack style singles, you know it was worn out.

[Edited 4/9/11 15:09pm]

the thing with that is, they were a major influence on new jack, so why would they even go and try to do that? they were fine the way they were, then they went and messed up with new jack. same with isley brothers (specifically, ronald isley). why did people wanna go the r kelly/teddy riley route, when they both suck?

just my opinion, folks...

Why? Because they're not satisfied with who they WERE.

daPrettyman said:

These are modern-day Gospel music changers.

[Edited 4/9/11 21:59pm]

[img:$uid]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d9/The_Clark_Sisters_-_You_Brought_The_Sunshine.png[/img:$uid]

Timmy84 said:

MJJstudent said:

the thing with that is, they were a major influence on new jack, so why would they even go and try to do that? they were fine the way they were, then they went and messed up with new jack. same with isley brothers (specifically, ronald isley). why did people wanna go the r kelly/teddy riley route, when they both suck?

just my opinion, folks...

Why? Because they're not satisfied with who they WERE.

sad... so sad...

Timmy84 said:

MJJstudent said:

C&C did a 'black or white' official remix... martha wash also has a one degree of separation between michael and cliviles and cole too... people need to give her more respect!

I remember the C&C mix very well. They played it on the radio the same time Word to the Crap leaked.

That's the only rock thing about BOW - the riff from Slash. Don't make it a rock record.

I love Michael to death but come on if we're gonna call a spade a spade, we might as well just say BOW is just a mixture of a lot of sounds. It's got rock elements sure but it's not fully one.

i agree.

MJJstudent said:

Timmy84 said:

Why? Because they're not satisfied with who they WERE.

sad... so sad...

But see think about it...

Something's worked for you for a long time. Suddenly a new sound takes over and suddenly you're old hat. Some could choose to stay real and true.

But it's ALL ABOUT MONEY. You have to understand how the industry has always been. If the industry gets behind a new sound, the artist either chooses not to chase the record sales or they do.

Timmy84 said:

MJJstudent said:

sad... so sad...

But see think about it...

Something's worked for you for a long time. Suddenly a new sound takes over and suddenly you're old hat. Some could choose to stay real and true.

But it's ALL ABOUT MONEY. You have to understand how the industry has always been. If the industry gets behind a new sound, the artist either chooses not to chase the record sales or they do.

oh tim, i grasp what you say completely. this is why i do non-commercial radio, and why i don't spin out in public too much anymore. this is why i never wanna be famous. i don't want people demanding crap i would never play.

i respect people like petey greene, who played music of the people, as well as doing important sociual commentary. this is why STEVIE lasted as long as he has, or even michael... teena marie... because whehter or not we agree on the state of their music, their intent has always been there, for positivity. even with multi-million dollar deals, there's a higher force (if you will) at play. if you're doing something just for money it's going to eventually show itself as such.

MJJstudent said:

Timmy84 said:

But see think about it...

Something's worked for you for a long time. Suddenly a new sound takes over and suddenly you're old hat. Some could choose to stay real and true.

But it's ALL ABOUT MONEY. You have to understand how the industry has always been. If the industry gets behind a new sound, the artist either chooses not to chase the record sales or they do.

oh tim, i grasp what you say completely. this is why i do non-commercial radio, and why i don't spin out in public too much anymore. this is why i never wanna be famous. i don't want people demanding crap i would never play.

i respect people like petey greene, who played music of the people, as well as doing important sociual commentary. this is why STEVIE lasted as long as he has, or even michael... teena marie... because whehter or not we agree on the state of their music, their intent has always been there, for positivity. even with multi-million dollar deals, there's a higher force (if you will) at play. if you're doing something just for money it's going to eventually show itself as such.

Right. Money definitely plays into the factor of how an artist's music degenerates.

MJJstudent said:

MickyDolenz said:

The brothers also did New Jack on 2300 Jackson Street (and so did Randy on his album with The Gypsys), which came out 2 years before Dangerous. I think with James is that the balladeer type R&B/pop singing he was known for was dying out, and it was an attempt to get radio play. Old funk groups like Gap Band, Cameo, Midnight Star, and the Bar Kays were also making New Jack Swing during that time. They didn't really fare much better. When people like Celine Dion started releasing New Jack style singles, you know it was worn out.

[Edited 4/9/11 15:09pm]

the thing with that is, they were a major influence on new jack, so why would they even go and try to do that? they were fine the way they were, then they went and messed up with new jack. same with isley brothers (specifically, ronald isley). why did people wanna go the r kelly/teddy riley route, when they both suck?

just my opinion, folks...

James Brown did some New Jack with Full Force "and I ain't takin' no lip!". I don't really remember the Isley's doing it, maybe Chris Jasper did. The Isley's (or Mr. Biggs) were mostly doing slow jams. But then again, I didn't really pay much attention to them after the 6 member version broke up. I remember Kool & The Gang releasing a New Jack remix of Ladies Night though. Technically, one of the first NJS tunes was The Show by Doug E Fresh.

MickyDolenz said:

MJJstudent said:

the thing with that is, they were a major influence on new jack, so why would they even go and try to do that? they were fine the way they were, then they went and messed up with new jack. same with isley brothers (specifically, ronald isley). why did people wanna go the r kelly/teddy riley route, when they both suck?

just my opinion, folks...

James Brown did some New Jack with Full Force "and I ain't takin' no lip!". I don't really remember the Isley's doing it, maybe Chris Jasper did. The Isley's (or Mr. Biggs) were mostly doing slow jams. But then again, I didn't really pay much attention to them after the 6 member version broke up. I remember Kool & The Gang releasing a New Jack remix of Ladies Night though. Technically, one of the first NJS tunes was The Show by Doug E Fresh.

Now I'm really confused. So WHAT then is the identifying signature of New Jack Swing?

NDRU said:

Alej said:

MickyDolenz said:

MJJstudent said:

the thing with that is, they were a major influence on new jack, so why would they even go and try to do that? they were fine the way they were, then they went and messed up with new jack. same with isley brothers (specifically, ronald isley). why did people wanna go the r kelly/teddy riley route, when they both suck?

just my opinion, folks...

James Brown did some New Jack with Full Force "and I ain't takin' no lip!". I don't really remember the Isley's doing it, maybe Chris Jasper did. The Isley's (or Mr. Biggs) were mostly doing slow jams. But then again, I didn't really pay much attention to them after the 6 member version broke up. I remember Kool & The Gang releasing a New Jack remix of Ladies Night though. Technically, one of the first NJS tunes was The Show by Doug E Fresh.

Would "Gett Off" be considered "New Jack?"