Timmy84 said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

State of Shock dates as far back as 1982 when MJ and Freddie were working on music together. It was always a "stop and go" process. They didn't finish the record until 83-84

Interesting how so many songs were for some albums and then were recorded for other albums. Same thing happened with Stevie.

Yep. That's why the songs MJ and Freddie did were never complete due to their schedules. So many songs are written years before just to be put on future releases

ViintageJunkiie said:

Derek1984 said:

We know Buffalo Bill was worked on for Victory but if MJ thought so highly of it, why wasn't it included on Victory? And I have a hunch that it was reworked in the BAD sessions, only to be left off that album as well. All I know was an engineer told me that Buffalo Bill had a "John Barnes influence" type sound.

A lot of songs they recorded didn't make the cut of Victory. MJ said he'd work on one song, then another song comes up and beats out the previous

When you compare MJ's efforts on the previous Jacksons albums, I wonder why MJ wasn't more involved on the Victory album. It seems to me that he would've had a lot of material to provide (Buffalo Bill, Victory, tracks from Thriller that didn't make the final cut, etc...). Instead, we get Be Not Always. I don't think that BNA is a bad song but it certainly wasn't radio friendly or worthy of being a single. I almost get the vibe that between this album and the tour, MJ really didn't want to be involved, but did it for the family. Maybe I am wrong. But the dropoff of in quality between Triumph and Victory is big to me. I almost feel like there has got to be a reason as to why that is...

Derek1984 said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

A lot of songs they recorded didn't make the cut of Victory. MJ said he'd work on one song, then another song comes up and beats out the previous

When you compare MJ's efforts on the previous Jacksons albums, I wonder why MJ wasn't more involved on the Victory album. It seems to me that he would've had a lot of material to provide (Buffalo Bill, Victory, tracks from Thriller that didn't make the final cut, etc...). Instead, we get Be Not Always. I don't think that BNA is a bad song but it certainly wasn't radio friendly or worthy of being a single. I almost get the vibe that between this album and the tour, MJ really didn't want to be involved, but did it for the family. Maybe I am wrong. But the dropoff of in quality between Triumph and Victory is big to me. I almost feel like there has got to be a reason as to why that is...

i take it you're young, maybe born in '84? b/c that is EXACTLY what happened. mj did not want to tour, but his mother came crying to him, saying the family needed the money. after he agreed to do it, there was a huge controversy with the ticket sales in that people were forced to buy four and they were expensive (for '84). the album was thrown together to capitalize on mj's success. mj didn't even bother to show up to shoot video for the lead single, torture; they substituted a mannequin. i kid you not.

[Edited 3/17/11 11:58am]

Derek1984 said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

A lot of songs they recorded didn't make the cut of Victory. MJ said he'd work on one song, then another song comes up and beats out the previous

When you compare MJ's efforts on the previous Jacksons albums, I wonder why MJ wasn't more involved on the Victory album. It seems to me that he would've had a lot of material to provide (Buffalo Bill, Victory, tracks from Thriller that didn't make the final cut, etc...). Instead, we get Be Not Always. I don't think that BNA is a bad song but it certainly wasn't radio friendly or worthy of being a single. I almost get the vibe that between this album and the tour, MJ really didn't want to be involved, but did it for the family. Maybe I am wrong. But the dropoff of in quality between Triumph and Victory is big to me. I almost feel like there has got to be a reason as to why that is...

There was tension between the brothers during the recording of that album. Most of the songs were composed solo records from the brothers.

kibbles said:

Derek1984 said:

When you compare MJ's efforts on the previous Jacksons albums, I wonder why MJ wasn't more involved on the Victory album. It seems to me that he would've had a lot of material to provide (Buffalo Bill, Victory, tracks from Thriller that didn't make the final cut, etc...). Instead, we get Be Not Always. I don't think that BNA is a bad song but it certainly wasn't radio friendly or worthy of being a single. I almost get the vibe that between this album and the tour, MJ really didn't want to be involved, but did it for the family. Maybe I am wrong. But the dropoff of in quality between Triumph and Victory is big to me. I almost feel like there has got to be a reason as to why that is...

i take it you're young, maybe born in '84? b/c that is EXACTLY what happened. mj did not want to tour, but his mother came crying to him, saying the family needed the money. after he agreed to do it, there was a huge controversy with the ticket sales in that people were forced to buy four and they were expensive (for '84). the album was thrown together to capitalize on mj's success. mj didn't even bother to show up to shoot video for the lead single, torture; they substituted a mannequin. i kid you not.

[Edited 3/17/11 11:58am]

^ Yes, born in '84. This is what I always kind of figured about Victory. Be Not Always has a nice message and MJ's voice sounds amazing, but to me, the song is a letdown. It would make sense to me that MJ held back good material for this album. If you have MJ (video interview in Encino)and Frank Dileo (Rolling Stone Article) in 1983 saying they have a hit on their hands with Buffalo Bill and it doesn't get released on Victory in 1984, something doesn't add up.

Derek1984 said:

kibbles said:

i take it you're young, maybe born in '84? b/c that is EXACTLY what happened. mj did not want to tour, but his mother came crying to him, saying the family needed the money. after he agreed to do it, there was a huge controversy with the ticket sales in that people were forced to buy four and they were expensive (for '84). the album was thrown together to capitalize on mj's success. mj didn't even bother to show up to shoot video for the lead single, torture; they substituted a mannequin. i kid you not.

[Edited 3/17/11 11:58am]

^ Yes, born in '84. This is what I always kind of figured about Victory. Be Not Always has a nice message and MJ's voice sounds amazing, but to me, the song is a letdown. It would make sense to me that MJ held back good material for this album. If you have MJ (video interview in Encino)and Frank Dileo (Rolling Stone Article) in 1983 saying they have a hit on their hands with Buffalo Bill and it doesn't get released on Victory in 1984, something doesn't add up.

This is what MJ had to say during his 1984 (or is it 85?) Depo about why certain songs aren't released

"I write all the time. I have so many songs, and another song will come along and beat it out; not that those aren't good enough to release because I am going to do those in the future, but it's just I get more excited about the next one and then the next one."

That explains why Buffalo Bill was later re-recorded for Bad, hence the "I am going to do those in the future" line

ViintageJunkiie said:

Derek1984 said:

^ Yes, born in '84. This is what I always kind of figured about Victory. Be Not Always has a nice message and MJ's voice sounds amazing, but to me, the song is a letdown. It would make sense to me that MJ held back good material for this album. If you have MJ (video interview in Encino)and Frank Dileo (Rolling Stone Article) in 1983 saying they have a hit on their hands with Buffalo Bill and it doesn't get released on Victory in 1984, something doesn't add up.

This is what MJ had to say during his 1984 (or is it 85?) Depo about why certain songs aren't released

"I write all the time. I have so many songs, and another song will come along and beat it out; not that those aren't good enough to release because I am going to do those in the future, but it's just I get more excited about the next one and then the next one."

That explains why Buffalo Bill was later re-recorded for Bad, hence the "I am going to do those in the future" line

If MJ got more excited about Be Not Always over Buffalo Bill, well then I just lost some hope thinking Buffalo Bill could be a hidden gem. The way MJ acted in the Encino interview and what Dileo said in Rolling Stone, they both seemed very confident about Buffalo Bill. They also made it seem like it was finished. It will be interesting to hear this song one day, assuming it doesn't get butchered by Johnny.

[Edited 3/17/11 12:44pm]

Derek1984 said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

This is what MJ had to say during his 1984 (or is it 85?) Depo about why certain songs aren't released

"I write all the time. I have so many songs, and another song will come along and beat it out; not that those aren't good enough to release because I am going to do those in the future, but it's just I get more excited about the next one and then the next one."

That explains why Buffalo Bill was later re-recorded for Bad, hence the "I am going to do those in the future" line

If MJ got more excited about Be Not Always over Buffalo Bill, well then I just lost some hope thinking Buffalo Bill could be a hidden gem. The way MJ acted in the Encino interview and what Dileo said in Rolling Stone, they both seemed very confident about Buffalo Bill. They also made it seem like it was finished. It will be interesting to hear this song one day, assuming it doesn't get butchered by Johnny.

[Edited 3/17/11 12:44pm]

I'm sure the song is finished, but just wasn't picked for final selection. Remember, Dirty Diana and Liberian girl were also written around the same time as Buffalo Bill. Most likely Buffalo Bill just didn't fit the direction of Victory

Timmy84 said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

State of Shock dates as far back as 1982 when MJ and Freddie were working on music together. It was always a "stop and go" process. They didn't finish the record until 83-84

Interesting how so many songs were for some albums and then were recorded for other albums. Same thing happened with Stevie.

And let's not forget Prince, lol.

I think many artists come back to songs, rework them etc. Sometimes the missing ingredient doesn't reveal itself, or a melody just won't let go.

ViintageJunkiie said:

Derek1984 said:

When you compare MJ's efforts on the previous Jacksons albums, I wonder why MJ wasn't more involved on the Victory album. It seems to me that he would've had a lot of material to provide (Buffalo Bill, Victory, tracks from Thriller that didn't make the final cut, etc...). Instead, we get Be Not Always. I don't think that BNA is a bad song but it certainly wasn't radio friendly or worthy of being a single. I almost get the vibe that between this album and the tour, MJ really didn't want to be involved, but did it for the family. Maybe I am wrong. But the dropoff of in quality between Triumph and Victory is big to me. I almost feel like there has got to be a reason as to why that is...

There was tension between the brothers during the recording of that album. Most of the songs were composed solo records from the brothers.

That's why I ain't gonna bother with that particular album.

ViintageJunkiie said:

Derek1984 said:

If MJ got more excited about Be Not Always over Buffalo Bill, well then I just lost some hope thinking Buffalo Bill could be a hidden gem. The way MJ acted in the Encino interview and what Dileo said in Rolling Stone, they both seemed very confident about Buffalo Bill. They also made it seem like it was finished. It will be interesting to hear this song one day, assuming it doesn't get butchered by Johnny.

[Edited 3/17/11 12:44pm]

I'm sure the song is finished, but just wasn't picked for final selection. Remember, Dirty Diana and Liberian girl were also written around the same time as Buffalo Bill. Most likely Buffalo Bill just didn't fit the direction of Victory

You also have to remember you have all the brother's potentially thinking it this is "their chance" to launch their own solo album. So the pressure in meetings and each vying to have a track with them singing on it would have been intense.

The smart thing to do would have been to record a true Jacksons album - with MJ on the majority of vocals, and songs written as a collective. But you know with Jermaine back in the fold, Randy potentially feeling threatened, and Marlon thinking "this is my moment" it was going to be a free for all.

I remember getting the album in 84 and being so disappointed in it. There was maybe 2 or 3 good songs on there, but it just felt weak. For my money the best track is actually One More Chance - would have been interesting to hear MJ on that track.

Funny Victory story - When I got the album on vinyl, I just assumed it kicked off with State of Shock, so for years when ever I listened to it the album flow went:

State of Shock

We Can Change the World

The Hurt

Body

Torture

Wait

One More Chance

Be Not Always

It wasn't until I got the album on CD that I realised the error of my ways.

But it did feel like a better flow - starting with the rocker State of Shock and ending with the melancholy Be Not Always.

Swa said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

I'm sure the song is finished, but just wasn't picked for final selection. Remember, Dirty Diana and Liberian girl were also written around the same time as Buffalo Bill. Most likely Buffalo Bill just didn't fit the direction of Victory

You also have to remember you have all the brother's potentially thinking it this is "their chance" to launch their own solo album. So the pressure in meetings and each vying to have a track with them singing on it would have been intense.

The smart thing to do would have been to record a true Jacksons album - with MJ on the majority of vocals, and songs written as a collective. But you know with Jermaine back in the fold, Randy potentially feeling threatened, and Marlon thinking "this is my moment" it was going to be a free for all.

I remember getting the album in 84 and being so disappointed in it. There was maybe 2 or 3 good songs on there, but it just felt weak. For my money the best track is actually One More Chance - would have been interesting to hear MJ on that track.

MJ never wanted to do the album in the first place. He just finished Thriller and the album was still riding high, selling millions and breaking records. He wanted a break from the spotlight, but of course his family pressured him into doing the album AND the tour. With that tension, MJ pretty much said "here, I'll give you guys these tracks" and that was that. In MJ's book "Moonwalk" he mentioned that he wanted to name the tour The Final Curtain Call"

There's a 7-page in depth article about the making of "Moonwalker" in the new issue of EMPIRE magazine. Don't know if it's available online, if not I'll scan it up at some point in the next few days when I get a chance. It has interviews with Jerry Kramer and Colin Chilvers amongst others. As a huge fan of the movie (I almost literally watched it every day growing up), I'm real interested to read it, although I don't think it's going to be 100% positive. Which of course, is good as long as the criticism is constructive. Nobody wants a puff piece. I'll let you know some thoughts after I read it, but I snapped a quick pic of the first two pages.

[img:$uid]http://i.imgur..../img:$uid]

So there's a thread of negativity running through the entire article. They never resort to personal attacks, but they basically accuse Michael of having a messiah complex etc. That kind of thing.

I don't agree with all of it.... I think a lot of people attempt to understand Michael in the context of what's considered "normal" human behaviour, but part of the beauty of Michael's life and career was that you simply can't do that, you can only look at him relative to himself and it's hard for a lot of critics to accept that. Overall, an interesting read though.

Swa said:

Funny Victory story - When I got the album on vinyl, I just assumed it kicked off with State of Shock, so for years when ever I listened to it the album flow went:

State of Shock

We Can Change the World

The Hurt

Body

Torture

Wait

One More Chance

Be Not Always

It wasn't until I got the album on CD that I realised the error of my ways.

But it did feel like a better flow - starting with the rocker State of Shock and ending with the melancholy Be Not Always.

I've said before i don't mind Victory at all, the only song i skip is Tito's. The rest is OK, Michael can be heard all over the backing vox enough for my liking. 'Wait' is just pure fucking 80's OTT genius.

Militant said:

There's a 7-page in depth article about the making of "Moonwalker" in the new issue of EMPIRE magazine. Don't know if it's available online, if not I'll scan it up at some point in the next few days when I get a chance. It has interviews with Jerry Kramer and Colin Chilvers amongst others. As a huge fan of the movie (I almost literally watched it every day growing up), I'm real interested to read it, although I don't think it's going to be 100% positive. Which of course, is good as long as the criticism is constructive. Nobody wants a puff piece. I'll let you know some thoughts after I read it, but I snapped a quick pic of the first two pages.

[img:$uid]http://i.imgur..../img:$uid]

Got it. Even-tempered article.

'Moonwalker' is a pretty great stoner movie. So i've heard.

Marrk said:

Militant said:

There's a 7-page in depth article about the making of "Moonwalker" in the new issue of EMPIRE magazine. Don't know if it's available online, if not I'll scan it up at some point in the next few days when I get a chance. It has interviews with Jerry Kramer and Colin Chilvers amongst others. As a huge fan of the movie (I almost literally watched it every day growing up), I'm real interested to read it, although I don't think it's going to be 100% positive. Which of course, is good as long as the criticism is constructive. Nobody wants a puff piece. I'll let you know some thoughts after I read it, but I snapped a quick pic of the first two pages.

[img:$uid]http://i.imgur..../img:$uid]

Got it. Even-tempered article.

'Moonwalker' is a pretty great stoner movie. So i've heard.

I think Empire couldn't gush about it and remain credible to it's readers. Sure some MJ fans may think it's the best movie ever made, but I think most of us can view it for what it is and enjoy it without thinking it ranks up there as one of the best movies ever.

I remember going to see it at the cinema on Boxing Day and loving it but at the same time feeling a little let down that it wasn't really a movie but a collection of short films and clips - it's fun, delivers greatness in Leave Me Alone and Smooth Criminal but you have to admit this was a movie made for the fans. A non-fan of MJ was never going to see it and love it as a film in the same way a movie like 8 mile or Purple Rain might have had people who weren't fans of Eminem and Prince see something new in them via the films.

I love it for what it is, and have bought every release from VHS, to DVD to BluRay and still pull it out every now and then when I want to get a fix of Man In The Mirror or Smooth Criminal.

MJJstudent said:

there are songs michael liked that i think are straight up garbage. he also liked people like chris brown and usher, and i don't like those people at all, musically.

LOL Those two are kinda his disciples. Plus, I don't think MJ was the kinda person to just be "You SUCK" to anyone. I mean I know that there must have been times when he wanted to tell fans to gtfo and leave him alone, but he wasn't going to do that. At least I would think so. I mean this this is the same man that embraced Britney Spears, Beyonce, and Lady Gaga as well as Bjork and Radiohead.His musical tastes seem to be quite vast. Either he had shitty taste in music or he saw something in them and their work. So maybe he recognized that, at least. Though, I would have love to know if MJ was jammin' to Baby, Hit Me One More Time back in the late 90s.

MJJstudent said:

this is why i am not a famous artist, because i would never release things for the sales, or to try to get some award from guiness. thriller would be a solid album if michael listened to his subconscious side and released the material he felt would have been better than what was officially released.

It's not about being a famous artist or whatever. It's just about what your goals are as an artist. His were to sell lots of records while for some it may not be. I think that he managed to reach a lot of people all the while doing what he wanted to do. I think the time he wasn't interested in working in something...you can hear it, because there's a certain disconnect from it. Example: the Victory album. Even if MJ is on the album and has his songs on it, there's something missing, it's his heart. It's just not in there. It feels as if it was just done to be done. I mean...there are some cools songs on it, but at the end of the day...it is what it is.

MJJstudent said:

i don't have the 'michael' album, i don't consider it a michael album, so i don't acknowledge it. i heard it on the sony site and i consider it the worst album i've ever heard in my life,

There's much worse out there. MUCH worse.

MJJstudent said:

and i maintain that 'heartbreak hotel' SHOULD have been on the thriller album, replacing 'thriller'.

=( If you would to take out Thriller then what would I have to look forward to every Halloween?

I don't know...I think that sometimes...music and art...they can be really fun things you know? Obviously, the song isn't going to win any awards, but it's all right. Sometimes...things can be kitschy and novel. Even if Thriller is the most overrated song on the album, I still like it and I still like to hear it. It brings back fond memories. It has a dance to go along with it; a look. It's a great piece of funk. It has, definitely, secured itself into various cultures. It's something that people can get together to do even if they don't know each other. I mean...being able to enjoy something...even if a lot of people like it...isn't that one of the great things about art?

MJJstudent said:

i definitely feel different about the album as you do (i think thriller pales in comparison to ALL of his albums, before and after... i only ultimately like four songs on the album. i also find 'starlight' to have better lyrics),

You should do your own write up. I would love to see your complete thoughts on it.

Overall, I think it's pretty interesting that that most people find Thriller to only have 2-3 really good songs on it and then the rest of it to be crap. While I will listen to the entire album, there's only 2 songs I'm not really fond of too much. I think it really depends on your taste in music which is what I thought was the beauty of the album in the first place and maybe what some people tend to forget. It, literally, has something for everyone.

bboy87 said:

looking at it, Bad did somewhat better on the charts than Thriller did on the R&B chart

I think the irony is that many, especially some critics in particular, consider that to be MJ's least 'black' album.

hhhhdmt said:

I am not really into Mj's personal life but i was wondering what Mj fans generally think are his ten best songs ?

Mine would probably go:

1. Wanna be startin somethin

2. Billie Jean

3. Dont stop till you get enough

4. Beat It

5. Human Nature

6. The Way You Make Me Feel
7. Man in the Mirror

8. Liberian Girl

9. You Rock My World

10. Rock with You

My personnal list (in no particular order)

1. Stranger in Moscow

2. Little Susie

3. Superfly Sister

4. Earth Song

5. Got the Hots

6. Is it Scary

7. Baby Be Mine Demo

8. The Girl is Mine Demo

9.Whatever Happens

10. Do You know Where Your Children are

(bonuses from motown era):

What Goes Around Comes Around

Up Again

Girl Don't Take your Love From Me (omg that 10 and a half second note he hits with ease)

When I Come of Age

One Day In Your Life

^^ I'm actually working on a song by song review of the 101 Greatest Michael Jackson songs. When I'm done I'll publish it here first.

ViintageJunkiie said:

I'm telling you, im THIS close to laying on my back and fucking for a Victory and Bad DVD!

[Edited 3/17/11 17:20pm]

EmeraldSkies said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

I'm telling you, im THIS close to laying on my back and fucking for a Victory and Bad DVD!

[Edited 3/17/11 17:20pm]

It's called FFJV

Fucking for Jackson videos

Thriller and sales.

I've seen a few comments about Michael in a sense selling out with Thriller, and that people feel his creative motivation was just sales. Whilst it might be easy to say based on the huge sales it ended up doing, I don't think this was his primary motivation.

Whilst the story is often bountied about that Michael wanted Thriller to sell 100 million, in truth I think he wanted to be recognised - and he saw sales as irrefutable.

With his artistic heart on the line with OTW Michael saw it as his true solo album. His stepping away from his brothers, doing his music, his way. I think he had high hopes for OTW, and while it was a success it wasn't as big as he had wanted and he was still labelled a "black artist" rather than "an artist." Compound that with what he saw as it being snubbed at Grammy night Michael headed into the studio on his next solo album with an "i'll show you" attitude producing an album that couldn't be denied.

This motivation at it's heart was all about validation. Was all about proving yourself. It's all about doing work that can't be ignored. And with the that focus MJ went to work on Thriller. You can see it in the high hopes he had for the recording, the mix, the selection of songs.

Thriller though was still a risk. It was a genre-hopping album that had it not had solid songs could have easily been passed off as lacking focus and direction or a sense of purpose. When it hit, it sounded unlike anything else out there in the way it so effortlessly went from funk to adult orientated pop to dance to rock to soul.

There is artistry here beyond just a desire to sell.

bboy87 said:

EmeraldSkies said:

[Edited 3/17/11 17:20pm]

It's called FFJV

Fucking for Jackson videos

Swa said:

Thriller and sales.

I've seen a few comments about Michael in a sense selling out with Thriller, and that people feel his creative motivation was just sales. Whilst it might be easy to say based on the huge sales it ended up doing, I don't think this was his primary motivation.

Whilst the story is often bountied about that Michael wanted Thriller to sell 100 million, in truth I think he wanted to be recognised - and he saw sales as irrefutable.

With his artistic heart on the line with OTW Michael saw it as his true solo album. His stepping away from his brothers, doing his music, his way. I think he had high hopes for OTW, and while it was a success it wasn't as big as he had wanted and he was still labelled a "black artist" rather than "an artist." Compound that with what he saw as it being snubbed at Grammy night Michael headed into the studio on his next solo album with an "i'll show you" attitude producing an album that couldn't be denied.

This motivation at it's heart was all about validation. Was all about proving yourself. It's all about doing work that can't be ignored. And with the that focus MJ went to work on Thriller. You can see it in the high hopes he had for the recording, the mix, the selection of songs.

Thriller though was still a risk. It was a genre-hopping album that had it not had solid songs could have easily been passed off as lacking focus and direction or a sense of purpose. When it hit, it sounded unlike anything else out there in the way it so effortlessly went from funk to adult orientated pop to dance to rock to soul.

There is artistry here beyond just a desire to sell.

This is very nicely put. I know that I said that sales was his motivation in my last post, but you are actually correct. I also believe that it was more of a thing of being recognized as an individual...as Michael Jackson. To make a name out for himself rather than to be forever linked to/controlled by his family. In the music industry sales = recognition. The more sales you acquire, the more recognition you usually get from everyone. It could be or not be from one's inability to recognize one's self, but either way the album went on to sell more than a just a lot of copies and become a pretty big historical event and culturally defining moment.

Unholyalliance said:

Swa said:

Thriller and sales.

I've seen a few comments about Michael in a sense selling out with Thriller, and that people feel his creative motivation was just sales. Whilst it might be easy to say based on the huge sales it ended up doing, I don't think this was his primary motivation.

Whilst the story is often bountied about that Michael wanted Thriller to sell 100 million, in truth I think he wanted to be recognised - and he saw sales as irrefutable.

With his artistic heart on the line with OTW Michael saw it as his true solo album. His stepping away from his brothers, doing his music, his way. I think he had high hopes for OTW, and while it was a success it wasn't as big as he had wanted and he was still labelled a "black artist" rather than "an artist." Compound that with what he saw as it being snubbed at Grammy night Michael headed into the studio on his next solo album with an "i'll show you" attitude producing an album that couldn't be denied.

This motivation at it's heart was all about validation. Was all about proving yourself. It's all about doing work that can't be ignored. And with the that focus MJ went to work on Thriller. You can see it in the high hopes he had for the recording, the mix, the selection of songs.

Thriller though was still a risk. It was a genre-hopping album that had it not had solid songs could have easily been passed off as lacking focus and direction or a sense of purpose. When it hit, it sounded unlike anything else out there in the way it so effortlessly went from funk to adult orientated pop to dance to rock to soul.

There is artistry here beyond just a desire to sell.

This is very nicely put. I know that I said that sales was his motivation in my last post, but you are actually correct. I also believe that it was more of a thing of being recognized as an individual...as Michael Jackson. To make a name out for himself rather than to be forever linked to/controlled by his family. In the music industry sales = recognition. The more sales you acquire, the more recognition you usually get from everyone. It could be or not be from one's inability to recognize one's self, but either way the album went on to sell more than a just a lot of copies and become a pretty big historical event and culturally defining moment.

Spot on Unholy, and also let's not forget from 7 years old Michael was taught (or inferred) that to be of worth, to be valued, was to be the best, to be the winner of the talent shows, to have the number one album, to have the most number one singles, to be the biggest etc etc.

With this kind of ingrained and warped sense of value and self-worth you can almost see why Michael almost felt the need to constantly remind everyone how good he was.

I think it's silly how Bad was called his "least black" album. Look at the first two videos, songs like Liberian Girl and Just Good Friends, and even the pop stuff sounding like the music other black artists were doing at the time or before him. I can hear Stevie Wonder influences on some of those songs too.

Swa said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

Most def! Cheater is one of my favorites! Didn't quite fit the direction of Bad, but would have made a nice b-side to something like "Smooth Criminal" or "Bad". Only thing I know about Buffalo Bill is the hook goes "Who shot Buffalo Bill? They said he shot a lot, did he ever get killed?" He spoke so highly of the record, along with Frank DiLeo

Cheater to me sounded like a poor man's The Way You Make Me Feel - and not just the intro which he repurposed for Heartbreak Hotel live and then later TWYMMF.

the intro he reused for both songs was from 'streetwalker'.

SherryJackson said:

Oh MJJStudent gonna whoop mah ass for this...but I always liked this performance of TWYMMF

I think he coulda gotten a better lookin' girl...but whatever...

I miss this Mike. His body looked healthy, he wasn't too skinny. Just right.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!

yeah, he looked really healthy during the HIStory/blood on the dance floor period... he didn't look like you wanted to strap him down and stuff food in his mouth. but YEAH! i'm not too into the performances of the song, or the video. we've discussed that before...

SHERRY, WE IS TAKIN' THIS OUTSIDE! SHAMON! HA!