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Define the term "re-invention", please. People keep on talking about how they admire Madonna for "reinventing" herself and I never actually understood what that meant.
Is it the constant change of looks? If so, we may also admire Paris Hilton. It is the change of music? Well, she seems to be making pop most of the time and her music changes only as she changes producers. It´s not really a change about HER or that she would make a jazz album all of sudden or a rock album or an album with classical music. The most "different" album she´s ever done seems to be Evita. Is it how she seems to be promoting different ideas at different times? But is this really genuine or is it just her trying to get an attention by touching current "controversial" subjects? Please help me understand what you mean by that and what is there to admire about it? "When Michael Jackson is just singing and dancing, you just think this is an astonishing talent. And he has had this astounding talent all his life, but we want him to be floored as well. We really don´t like the idea that he could have it all." | |
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Reinventing to me, is genuinely adopting new musical ideas without sounding off/out of place.
Example, the drastic change of Stevie Wonder's music after 1971. Prince whole period from 78-88 is a series of reinvention. I wasn't talking about the WHOLE package mind you, because I understand that some folks include "change of image" as part of reinvention,,,what I meant was solely musical. | |
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Harlepolis said: Reinventing to me, is genuinely adopting new musical ideas without sounding off/out of place.
Example, the drastic change of Stevie Wonder's music after 1971. Prince whole period from 78-88 is a series of reinvention. I wasn't talking about the WHOLE package mind you, because I understand that some folks include "change of image" as part of reinvention,,,what I meant was solely musical. OK, then give me an example of someone who hasn´t adopted new musical ideas without sounding out of place. As for Prince and Stevie, I understand because THEY are making the music and you can really find songs of all genres from jazz to rock especially in Prince discography (don´t know about Stevie), but with Madonna, she sounds only as her producers sound, plus it´s all dance music, related. [Edited 12/30/09 6:12am] "When Michael Jackson is just singing and dancing, you just think this is an astonishing talent. And he has had this astounding talent all his life, but we want him to be floored as well. We really don´t like the idea that he could have it all." | |
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dag said: Harlepolis said: Reinventing to me, is genuinely adopting new musical ideas without sounding off/out of place.
Example, the drastic change of Stevie Wonder's music after 1971. Prince whole period from 78-88 is a series of reinvention. I wasn't talking about the WHOLE package mind you, because I understand that some folks include "change of image" as part of reinvention,,,what I meant was solely musical. OK, then give me an example of someone who hasn´t adopted new musical ideas without sounding out of place. As for Prince and Stevie, I understand because THEY are making the music and you can really find songs of all genres from jazz to rock especially in Prince discography (don´t know about Stevie), but with Madonna, she sounds only as her producers sound. Al Green. | |
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Harlepolis said: dag said: OK, then give me an example of someone who hasn´t adopted new musical ideas without sounding out of place. As for Prince and Stevie, I understand because THEY are making the music and you can really find songs of all genres from jazz to rock especially in Prince discography (don´t know about Stevie), but with Madonna, she sounds only as her producers sound. Al Green. Can you please post some songs? I am not sure I know some of his music. "When Michael Jackson is just singing and dancing, you just think this is an astonishing talent. And he has had this astounding talent all his life, but we want him to be floored as well. We really don´t like the idea that he could have it all." | |
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dag said: Harlepolis said: Al Green. Can you please post some songs? I am not sure I know some of his music. Back up train - 1968 Love & Happiness - 1973 Keep on pushing love - 1995 Take Your time - 2008 [Edited 12/30/09 6:18am] | |
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Harlepolis said: dag said: Can you please post some songs? I am not sure I know some of his music. Back up train - 1968 Love & Happiness - 1973 Keep on pushing love - 1995 Take Your time - 2008 [Edited 12/30/09 6:18am] OK, I´ll check them out. Thanks. "When Michael Jackson is just singing and dancing, you just think this is an astonishing talent. And he has had this astounding talent all his life, but we want him to be floored as well. We really don´t like the idea that he could have it all." | |
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dag said: Harlepolis said: Reinventing to me, is genuinely adopting new musical ideas without sounding off/out of place.
Example, the drastic change of Stevie Wonder's music after 1971. Prince whole period from 78-88 is a series of reinvention. I wasn't talking about the WHOLE package mind you, because I understand that some folks include "change of image" as part of reinvention,,,what I meant was solely musical. As for Prince and Stevie, I understand because THEY are making the music and you can really find songs of all genres from jazz to rock especially in Prince discography (don´t know about Stevie), but with Madonna, she sounds only as her producers sound, plus it´s all dance music, related. [Edited 12/30/09 6:12am] Reinventing doesn't always have to be about fusing styles(Prince). You may focus on one specific genre and change it to fit your own voice. Listen to the albums Stevie made from 1966 untill 1976, you'll understand what I meant by his drastic reinvention. As far as Madge, I don't think she's a "producer's artist",,,maybe earlier in her career, but once she entered the 90s, she dictated her ideas into her work,,,,,all the producers she worked with from that point may have added to her music and even helped her get her message across, but the core is straight up Madonna. I guess you also have to listen to her discography to know what I'm talking about. [Edited 12/30/09 6:26am] | |
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Harlepolis said: dag said: As for Prince and Stevie, I understand because THEY are making the music and you can really find songs of all genres from jazz to rock especially in Prince discography (don´t know about Stevie), but with Madonna, she sounds only as her producers sound, plus it´s all dance music, related. [Edited 12/30/09 6:12am] Reinventing doesn't always have to be about fusing styles(Prince). You may focus on one specific genre and change it to fit your own voice. Listen to the albums Stevie made from 1966 untill 1976, you'll understand what I meant by his drastic reinvention. As far as Madge, I don't think she's a "producer's artist",,,maybe earlier in her career, but once she entered the 90s, she dictated her ideas into her work,,,,,all the producers she worked with from that point may have added to her music and even helped her get her message across, but the core is straight up Madonna. I guess you also have to listen to her discography to know what I'm talking about. [Edited 12/30/09 6:26am] See, I do know some of her 90´s album. I do have Bedtime Stories, Erotica and Ray of Light and that collection of ballads which is great actually. I don´t have any other ones cause I didn´t like them, but maybe since I am really not into her, I can´t define that "Madonna core". Is it in the melody or what? You know I love MJ and it´s not that I want to bring him into discussion but he´s the easiest for me to make examples of. When you listen to things he wrote for others, you can tell it´s him, when you listen to Joy by Blackstreet or even "Do the Bartman" by Simpsons, it´s typical MJ, the melody, the harmonies...just something that makes you know it´s MJ. But what is it that makes you feel that "Madonna core". "When Michael Jackson is just singing and dancing, you just think this is an astonishing talent. And he has had this astounding talent all his life, but we want him to be floored as well. We really don´t like the idea that he could have it all." | |
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I guess her use of lyrics. She's not much of a musician(thats where the producers come in), but she's very expressive when it comes to her words.
MJ reinvented himself as well when he came up with the Dangerous album  | |
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It's a bullshit term. Madonna never reinvented herself. She just changed her style, her look, her hair, her shoes. What women DOESN'T want to have a new look or new things to wear or new hair to sport? The woman can blink and people say "Oh wow, she reinvented herself". Did anyone EVER say that about Prince when he cut his hair off for ATWIAD and Parade? Did anyone ever say that when he grew his hair out, straightened it and wore high waist suits for years during the early 90's? Did anyone say he reinvented himself during the :slave: years? Of course not.
Reinvention has a desperation feel to it. Like "Shit, this isn't working, I'm tired and old, and I need to change it up." Same goes for "project". Projects aren't usually thought through ideas, but rather are just ideas thrown together to see a final result. It's temporary feeling. | |
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ernestsewell said: It's a bullshit term. Madonna never reinvented herself. She just changed her style, her look, her hair, her shoes. What women DOESN'T want to have a new look or new things to wear or new hair to sport? The woman can blink and people say "Oh wow, she reinvented herself". Did anyone EVER say that about Prince when he cut his hair off for ATWIAD and Parade? Did anyone ever say that when he grew his hair out, straightened it and wore high waist suits for years during the early 90's? Did anyone say he reinvented himself during the :slave: years? Of course not.
Reinvention has a desperation feel to it. Like "Shit, this isn't working, I'm tired and old, and I need to change it up." Same goes for "project". Projects aren't usually thought through ideas, but rather are just ideas thrown together to see a final result. It's temporary feeling. I disagree throughout. Every Madonna album till now has been radically different than its predecessor with the exceptions of Madonna/Like A Virgin and Music/American Life. I don't think it has a desperation to it either for having that you should have a previous album which was not successful and that didn't happen with every Madonna album. But you have to hear the albums to understand what I am talking about since it is not that obvious from the singles [Edited 12/30/09 9:16am] [Edited 12/30/09 9:16am] | |
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ernestsewell said: It's a bullshit term. Madonna never reinvented herself. She just changed her style, her look, her hair, her shoes. What women DOESN'T want to have a new look or new things to wear or new hair to sport? The woman can blink and people say "Oh wow, she reinvented herself". Did anyone EVER say that about Prince when he cut his hair off for ATWIAD and Parade? Did anyone ever say that when he grew his hair out, straightened it and wore high waist suits for years during the early 90's? Did anyone say he reinvented himself during the :slave: years? Of course not.
Reinvention has a desperation feel to it. Like "Shit, this isn't working, I'm tired and old, and I need to change it up." Same goes for "project". Projects aren't usually thought through ideas, but rather are just ideas thrown together to see a final result. It's temporary feeling. Yeah, this is how I feel about it, too, but I didn´t wanna be that negative. I mean, look at Sade. She´s always the same, lookwise, musicwise, but we all love her because what she does is DEEP, GENUINE and REAL, therefore it is impossible for her to "re-invent" herself the way Madonna does, whatever that term means. I guess her use of lyrics. She's not much of a musician(thats where the producers come in), but she's very expressive when it comes to her words.
Ok, but that doesn´t make sense to me right now because here you point out her use of lyrics and first you defined it as "adopting new musical ideas without sounding out of place". In that case, her " musical reinvention" would be just right choice in producers, which in other words is just working with the hottest ones out there at that time, but that has nothing to do with her growth as an artist. I´d say it just gives her the ability to adapt to the hottest trends, but then it can´t be real or geniune. I think she has talent in using words, but I have never heard anyone praising her as a great lyricist, nor am I aware of her being known for this. I personally can´t judge how great of a lyricist she is because I´ve never been that much into lyrics in general to compare, nor am I an expert in this field, so I don´t know, but watching her documentaries where she´d make some poems for her co-workers, I just knew I personally wouldn´t be capable of that.  "When Michael Jackson is just singing and dancing, you just think this is an astonishing talent. And he has had this astounding talent all his life, but we want him to be floored as well. We really don´t like the idea that he could have it all." | |
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jiorjios said: ernestsewell said: It's a bullshit term. Madonna never reinvented herself. She just changed her style, her look, her hair, her shoes. What women DOESN'T want to have a new look or new things to wear or new hair to sport? The woman can blink and people say "Oh wow, she reinvented herself". Did anyone EVER say that about Prince when he cut his hair off for ATWIAD and Parade? Did anyone ever say that when he grew his hair out, straightened it and wore high waist suits for years during the early 90's? Did anyone say he reinvented himself during the :slave: years? Of course not.
Reinvention has a desperation feel to it. Like "Shit, this isn't working, I'm tired and old, and I need to change it up." Same goes for "project". Projects aren't usually thought through ideas, but rather are just ideas thrown together to see a final result. It's temporary feeling. I disagree throughout. Every Madonna album till now has been radically different than its predecessor with the exceptions of Madonna/Like A Virgin and Music/American Life. I don't think it has a desperation to it either for having that you should have a previous album which was not successful and that didn't happen with every Madonna album. But you have to hear the albums to understand what I am talking about since it is not that obvious from the singles [Edited 12/30/09 9:16am] [Edited 12/30/09 9:16am] OK, even if her albums are different, my question is how does that make her being able to "re-invent" herself and how much that is just a result of different producers´ work. If you have always different people working on your albums, of course, the albums won´t be the same, cause nobody has the same feeling for music. As for the success, I think she knows that her success comes from her ability to change because that´s what keeps her interesting. If she stayed in one area, like Sade does for example, people would immediatelly loose interest cause it´s not real and deep enough to keep people interested. [Edited 12/30/09 9:35am] "When Michael Jackson is just singing and dancing, you just think this is an astonishing talent. And he has had this astounding talent all his life, but we want him to be floored as well. We really don´t like the idea that he could have it all." | |
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jiorjios said: I disagree throughout. Every Madonna album till now has been radically different than its predecessor with the exceptions of Madonna/Like A Virgin and Music/American Life. I don't think it has a desperation to it either for having that you should have a previous album which was not successful and that didn't happen with every Madonna album. But you have to hear the albums to understand what I am talking about since it is not that obvious from the singles
You sound like the media. 
Every artist wants to do something different on an album. No artist, singer, or whatever wants to just do the same thing over and over again. It's not reinvention, it's called GROWTH, pushing one's self to bigger and better things. You act as if Madonna is some new artist and I've never heard of her before. Buddy I'm 41 years old. She's only 10 years older than me. I have been on the Madge train since the beginning of her career. I have every single thing she's released. I've seen her in concert. I've bought regular and special editions of her albums. I've bought those 2-disk CD singles, for the sake of collection and being a completest. I've been with her through the glory years of Like A Prayer, the sexy years of Erotica, the introspective years of Bedtime Stories and Ray of Light, her iffy movie career, her angry/bad music time of American Life, and beyond. I'm not alone in this. I'm not unique when I say I know the changes, I've seen the growth. Even Madonna says she hated the term "reinvention". She said what I reflected in my previous reply, when she said, "What girl doesn't want to change her look, have new shoes, or wear a new dress? People act like it's some big plan. It's not. It's just me being a girl." She's right. The fact that she used the term "ReInvention" on a tour was a total play to the media saying that about her for years. Let's look at the Wikipedia page about the tour: The main intention of the tour was to transform Madonna's old hits musically and display her capacity for transformation and self-reflection.[4] The tour was initially known as the Whore of Babylon World Tour.....it was later changed to the Re-Invention World Tour, to make it a self-confident dig at all the critics and people who have expressed their views about Madonna re-inventing her image over the years
And with that I state again, the term "ReInvention" is a bullshit term. | |
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dag said: OK, even if her albums are different, my question is how does that make her being able to "re-invent" herself and how much that is just a result of different producers´ work. If you have always different people working on your albums, of course, the albums won´t be the same, cause nobody has the same feeling for music.
And it's just about trying new things. We can't expect her to have a "Holiday" or "Borderline" on every damn album, no more than we can expect Prince to have a "Let's Go Crazy" or "1999" on every album. MJ was just as known for not wanting to do anything remotely like the album before. Janet was the same way. Did she reinvent herself from military 1814 to sexy janet.? Of course not, it's just where she was in her life. | |
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ernestsewell said: dag said: OK, even if her albums are different, my question is how does that make her being able to "re-invent" herself and how much that is just a result of different producers´ work. If you have always different people working on your albums, of course, the albums won´t be the same, cause nobody has the same feeling for music.
And it's just about trying new things. We can't expect her to have a "Holiday" or "Borderline" on every damn album, no more than we can expect Prince to have a "Let's Go Crazy" or "1999" on every album. MJ was just as known for not wanting to do anything remotely like the album before. Janet was the same way. Did she reinvent herself from military 1814 to sexy janet.? Of course not, it's just where she was in her life. Yeah, exactly. It´s interesting that Madonna is praised and respected mainly for her "re-invention" so I am wondering what is so different about her "re-invention" from others. I am not sure I got it yet. "When Michael Jackson is just singing and dancing, you just think this is an astonishing talent. And he has had this astounding talent all his life, but we want him to be floored as well. We really don´t like the idea that he could have it all." | |
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dag said: Ok, but that doesn´t make sense to me right now because here you point out her use of lyrics and first you defined it as "adopting new musical ideas without sounding out of place". In that case, her " musical reinvention" would be just right choice in producers, which in other words is just working with the hottest ones out there at that time, but that has nothing to do with her growth as an artist. I´d say it just gives her the ability to adapt to the hottest trends, but then it can´t be real or geniune.
I think she has talent in using words, but I have never heard anyone praising her as a great lyricist, nor am I aware of her being known for this. I personally can´t judge how great of a lyricist she is because I´ve never been that much into lyrics in general to compare, nor am I an expert in this field, so I don´t know, but watching her documentaries where she´d make some poems for her co-workers, I just knew I personally wouldn´t be capable of that. I personally resonate with her lyrics, never mind the difference whether she get publicly praised for it or not
And words have as much to do to influence the mood of music as any melody you strike from the keyboard or any other instrument,,,,,so yes, in that sense lyrics can be considered instruments as well. As for her following trends  who doesn't? The key here is to preserve one's individuality,,,,she worked with a vast set of producers; Dallas austin, Reggie Lucas, Williams Orbit, Babyface, Neptunes, etc etc,,,,but all the songs you heard from those producers didn't overshadow her style/singing(for somebody who has limited singing as well, she knew how to put her voice in the forefront) and in result, you know a MADONNA song when you hear it no matter who produces it.
If she was under the producers thumbs,,,,I wouldn't think she would survive in the music industry at all because in order to maintain longevity, you have to possesse ALOT of substance, depth and individuality in your work. | |
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Harlepolis said: dag said: Ok, but that doesn´t make sense to me right now because here you point out her use of lyrics and first you defined it as "adopting new musical ideas without sounding out of place". In that case, her " musical reinvention" would be just right choice in producers, which in other words is just working with the hottest ones out there at that time, but that has nothing to do with her growth as an artist. I´d say it just gives her the ability to adapt to the hottest trends, but then it can´t be real or geniune.
I think she has talent in using words, but I have never heard anyone praising her as a great lyricist, nor am I aware of her being known for this. I personally can´t judge how great of a lyricist she is because I´ve never been that much into lyrics in general to compare, nor am I an expert in this field, so I don´t know, but watching her documentaries where she´d make some poems for her co-workers, I just knew I personally wouldn´t be capable of that. I personally resonate with her lyrics, never mind the difference whether she get publicly praised for it or not
And words have as much to do to influence the mood of music as any melody you strike from the keyboard or any other instrument,,,,,so yes, in that sense lyrics can be considered instruments as well. As for her following trends who doesn't? The key here is to preserve one's individuality,,,,she worked with a vast set of producers; Dallas austin, Reggie Lucas, Williams Orbit, Babyface, Neptunes, etc etc,,,,but all the songs you heard from those producers didn't overshadow her style/singing(for somebody who has limited singing as well, she knew how to put her voice in the forefront) and in result, you know a MADONNA song when you hear it no matter who produces it.
If she was under the producers thumbs,,,,I wouldn't think she would survive in the music industry at all because in order to maintain longevity, you have to possesse ALOT of substance, depth and individuality in your work. I think Madonna possesses a lot of "self-esteem" to maintain longevity.
That is why she cannot be under the producers thumbs. No, I don´t think she is or that anyone´s controlling her. I don´t think she´s that type, I think she´s quite the oppossite, but she knows how to get the hottest producers and make them work for her. But in the end, it´s their work. Like Take a Bow, Breath Again, Why, End of the Road are all Babyface´ songs, not Madonna´s, Tony Braxton´s, MJ´s or Boys II Men´s songs. Yeah, their singing made those songs special as well, but they´re all typical Babyface songs. As for the lyrics, I know you said it´s for you, but I am looking for something general and it cannot be that general because not everyone speaks English to see that as her "mark". English sounds all the same to non-native speakers. As for the singing, yeah, it´s everyone´s trademark. Mariah´s always whispering no matter who produces her songs, Christina´s always yelling no matter who produces her songs.
[Edited 12/30/09 12:08pm] [Edited 12/30/09 12:14pm] "When Michael Jackson is just singing and dancing, you just think this is an astonishing talent. And he has had this astounding talent all his life, but we want him to be floored as well. We really don´t like the idea that he could have it all." | |
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dag said: As for the lyrics, I know you said it´s for you, but I am looking for something general and it cannot be that general because not everyone speaks English to see that as her "mark". English sounds to non-native speakers all the same.
[Edited 12/30/09 12:08pm] In that case, then all the points I raised earlier are not valid, because they're personal not general. And I don't know whats the general definition either,,,,I tried though | |
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Harlepolis said: dag said: As for the lyrics, I know you said it´s for you, but I am looking for something general and it cannot be that general because not everyone speaks English to see that as her "mark". English sounds to non-native speakers all the same.
[Edited 12/30/09 12:08pm] In that case, then all the points I raised earlier are not valid, because they're personal not general. And I don't know whats the general definition either,,,,I tried though Yeah, I know and I appreciate it, but this term is so generally used that I think it should have a general definition. Well, maybe somebody else will explain. [Edited 12/30/09 12:13pm] "When Michael Jackson is just singing and dancing, you just think this is an astonishing talent. And he has had this astounding talent all his life, but we want him to be floored as well. We really don´t like the idea that he could have it all." | |
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ernestsewell said: jiorjios said: I disagree throughout. Every Madonna album till now has been radically different than its predecessor with the exceptions of Madonna/Like A Virgin and Music/American Life. I don't think it has a desperation to it either for having that you should have a previous album which was not successful and that didn't happen with every Madonna album. But you have to hear the albums to understand what I am talking about since it is not that obvious from the singles
You sound like the media.
Every artist wants to do something different on an album. No artist, singer, or whatever wants to just do the same thing over and over again. It's not reinvention, it's called GROWTH, pushing one's self to bigger and better things. You act as if Madonna is some new artist and I've never heard of her before. Buddy I'm 41 years old. She's only 10 years older than me. I have been on the Madge train since the beginning of her career. I have every single thing she's released. I've seen her in concert. I've bought regular and special editions of her albums. I've bought those 2-disk CD singles, for the sake of collection and being a completest. I've been with her through the glory years of Like A Prayer, the sexy years of Erotica, the introspective years of Bedtime Stories and Ray of Light, her iffy movie career, her angry/bad music time of American Life, and beyond. I'm not alone in this. I'm not unique when I say I know the changes, I've seen the growth. Even Madonna says she hated the term "reinvention". She said what I reflected in my previous reply, when she said, "What girl doesn't want to change her look, have new shoes, or wear a new dress? People act like it's some big plan. It's not. It's just me being a girl." She's right. The fact that she used the term "ReInvention" on a tour was a total play to the media saying that about her for years. Let's look at the Wikipedia page about the tour: The main intention of the tour was to transform Madonna's old hits musically and display her capacity for transformation and self-reflection.[4] The tour was initially known as the Whore of Babylon World Tour.....it was later changed to the Re-Invention World Tour, to make it a self-confident dig at all the critics and people who have expressed their views about Madonna re-inventing her image over the years
And with that I state again, the term "ReInvention" is a bullshit term. Well I don't know to what exactly you are answering to, I was not refering to her tour name,nor do I recall making any judgments on anyone's knowledge of Madonna's discography I just stated my opinion. Surely the media are not refering to her music when they are talking about reinvention, they refer to her hairstyle, they didn't even notice her music till 1998. So I don't know why u think I am talking like the media And no it's not the same as growth... Growth comes gradually album to album and in a limited number of directions. Growth is what Prince did most of his career. Madonna up to 2000 wasn't just growing, she was trying new things. That's the difference. If it is so usual as in 'every artist does it' why Mariah, Janet. Celine, Whitney all failed to do it? Why Beyonce and Britney and Rihanna don't do it? Out of the relatively new divas only Christina Aguilera seems to be going for new sounds in each album. And no I don't think that switching musical styles is better or worse than simply growing. It is just another way and one which most stars simply do not follow (for obvious reasons) [Edited 12/30/09 12:39pm] | |
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jiorjios said: Well I don't know to what exactly you are answering to, I was not refering to her tour name,nor do I recall making any judgments on anyone's knowledge of Madonna's discography I just stated my opinion. Surely the media are not refering to her music when they are talking about reinvention, they refer to her hairstyle, they didn't even notice her music till 1998. So I don't know why u think I am talking like the media
And no it's not the same as growth... Growth comes gradually album to album and in a limited number of directions. Growth is what Prince did most of his career. Madonna up to 2000 wasn't just growing, she was trying new things. That's the difference. If it is so usual as in 'every artist does it' why Mariah, Janet. Celine, Whitney all failed to do it? Why Beyonce and Britney and Rihanna don't do it? Out of the relatively new divas only Christina Aguilera seems to be going for new sounds in each album. And no I don't think that switching musical styles is better or worse than simply growing. It is just another way and one which most stars simply do not follow (for obvious reasons) My points stand as truth. | |
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ernestsewell said: jiorjios said: Well I don't know to what exactly you are answering to, I was not refering to her tour name,nor do I recall making any judgments on anyone's knowledge of Madonna's discography I just stated my opinion. Surely the media are not refering to her music when they are talking about reinvention, they refer to her hairstyle, they didn't even notice her music till 1998. So I don't know why u think I am talking like the media
And no it's not the same as growth... Growth comes gradually album to album and in a limited number of directions. Growth is what Prince did most of his career. Madonna up to 2000 wasn't just growing, she was trying new things. That's the difference. If it is so usual as in 'every artist does it' why Mariah, Janet. Celine, Whitney all failed to do it? Why Beyonce and Britney and Rihanna don't do it? Out of the relatively new divas only Christina Aguilera seems to be going for new sounds in each album. And no I don't think that switching musical styles is better or worse than simply growing. It is just another way and one which most stars simply do not follow (for obvious reasons) My points stand as truth. Whatever | |
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Example of re-invention:
Everlast-starts off as a pretty boy rapper with Ice-T House of Pain-Everlast goes rough hanging with Cypress Hill Whitey Ford-Someone told him he could sing so he grabs an acoustic and sings the blues... | |
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jiorjios said: ernestsewell said: And with that I state again, the term "ReInvention" is a bullshit term. Well I don't know to what exactly you are answering to, I was not refering to her tour name,nor do I recall making any judgments on anyone's knowledge of Madonna's discography I just stated my opinion. Surely the media are not refering to her music when they are talking about reinvention, they refer to her hairstyle, they didn't even notice her music till 1998. So I don't know why u think I am talking like the media And no it's not the same as growth... Growth comes gradually album to album and in a limited number of directions. Growth is what Prince did most of his career. Madonna up to 2000 wasn't just growing, she was trying new things. That's the difference. If it is so usual as in 'every artist does it' why Mariah, Janet. Celine, Whitney all failed to do it? Why Beyonce and Britney and Rihanna don't do it? Out of the relatively new divas only Christina Aguilera seems to be going for new sounds in each album. And no I don't think that switching musical styles is better or worse than simply growing. It is just another way and one which most stars simply do not follow (for obvious reasons) [Edited 12/30/09 12:39pm] Exactly | |
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Re-invention means to completely make something over.
Basically, to make over your whole image and music style. I can't speak for Madonna's music but she did re-invent her image a lot. I know Janet reinvented up to AFY (both music and image). | |
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Harlepolis said: dag said: Ok, but that doesn´t make sense to me right now because here you point out her use of lyrics and first you defined it as "adopting new musical ideas without sounding out of place". In that case, her " musical reinvention" would be just right choice in producers, which in other words is just working with the hottest ones out there at that time, but that has nothing to do with her growth as an artist. I´d say it just gives her the ability to adapt to the hottest trends, but then it can´t be real or geniune.
I think she has talent in using words, but I have never heard anyone praising her as a great lyricist, nor am I aware of her being known for this. I personally can´t judge how great of a lyricist she is because I´ve never been that much into lyrics in general to compare, nor am I an expert in this field, so I don´t know, but watching her documentaries where she´d make some poems for her co-workers, I just knew I personally wouldn´t be capable of that. I personally resonate with her lyrics, never mind the difference whether she get publicly praised for it or not
And words have as much to do to influence the mood of music as any melody you strike from the keyboard or any other instrument,,,,,so yes, in that sense lyrics can be considered instruments as well. As for her following trends who doesn't? The key here is to preserve one's individuality,,,,she worked with a vast set of producers; Dallas austin, Reggie Lucas, Williams Orbit, Babyface, Neptunes, etc etc,,,,but all the songs you heard from those producers didn't overshadow her style/singing(for somebody who has limited singing as well, she knew how to put her voice in the forefront) and in result, you know a MADONNA song when you hear it no matter who produces it.
If she was under the producers thumbs,,,,I wouldn't think she would survive in the music industry at all because in order to maintain longevity, you have to possesse ALOT of substance, depth and individuality in your work. though Madge may not be a musican per say she knows what she wants her albums to sound like and has not problem telling them to change it until it meets her expectations. everyone that has worked with her has stated that. nothing gets on her album until it meets her approval. You CANNOT use the name of God, or religion, to justify acts of violence, to hurt, to hate, to discriminate- Madonna
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I think the only true reinvention Madonna had was with the Ray of Light era. She started changing with Evita and then Ray Of Light was the final presentation of the new Madonna. The thing with Madonna is, she can pull off basically any look/attitude. I understand why people label every period as a reinvention even though I dont agree with it. I mean the person she portrayed for the True Blue era is quite different to early 80's Madonna. She entered a more classic, reserved phase for True Blue and Like A Prayer, and then portrayed a different character for Erotica/Bedtime Stories. And then came the true reinvention with Ray of Light. And even though shes had image changes since Ray Of Light, she still seems basically the same so I dont think theres been another reinvention since. | |
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