unique said:

This isn't what I was saying. I was just stating that a demo version versus a finished product evolves and gets crafted. No denying that Quincy aided in this process, but also you have to give credit to Michael also for pushing the evolution as well.




agree here for the most part - and you'll find the majority of the discarded Thriller outtakes were written by others and not MJ.




That would seem to prove my point. It was the collaboartion of janet who for the most part hadn't written much on the first two albums but when she worked with J&L she was given the opportunity to push herself. The three of them together produced great songs that neither J solo or J&L could replicate with other artists.

And I respect your opinion that you don't like the J&L tracks with MJ. Each to their own. Personally I love tabloid junkie and 2Bad and think these are amongst Michael's best.




Again your opinion. My statement was that to disregard history and dangerous outright dismisses some really great songs - or moments of brilliance as I stated. Maybe my choice of words should have been that the other tracks were moments of greatness, lol. All in all both albums for me are great, and despite the odd song here or there that aren't to my liking they are still great, solid and consistent albums. In a similar way that most Prince releases have one or two songs that do nothing for me and act more as filler in my opinion, others might love them. Each to their own.



I for one would argue History and Dangerous are up to par for sure, especially with an album like BAD that for me has some weak points (again others will disagree). As for Invincible - I think that the album suffered from a lack of focus and too many songs on it. If it was a 10 track release I think the opinions would have been different. There are songs on there that are as equally compelling to stuff off the three albums you hold so dear.

Each to their own - and nice to see a discussion about the music.

Swa

I would take HIStory and Dangerous over Thriller and Bad any day of the week.

As for Triumph though, that's a whole different story...

eireboy34 said:

Yes! You truly are behind... in many ways! Wow, responding to something I wrote over 3 weeks ago only to insult! Sad! Especially considering that it adds nothing to the discussion at hand... but then again, most of your one liners are pointless and useless!

You are pathetic and dumb... and you are digging your hole deeper and deeper! Everyone can see what a fool you are... only here to annoy people! I feel sorry for you!

Swa said:

i'm really surprised you say that the janet and J&L tracks are so good because of janets input. is that your thoughts, or is there something else to back that up? either way i'd be interested to read more. J&L wrote hearsay themselves and that was a great album with some classic hits, likewise the other classic J&L tracks, so it's strange that janet collabs turned out better than the MJ ones. in saying that, J&L didn't have quite the same success in the 90s as the 80s, all the really classic stuff was from the 80s. so maybe J&L dried up in the 90s and it was them to blame? but then the 90s J&L and janet stuff was still pretty good, so maybe your right and they made a perfect trio

the best MJ 90s work wasn't the J&L stuff either, the worst was the teddy riley stuff. the swingbeat rnb drum machine mid tempo jack swing stuff was just awful. the slower ballad tempo stuff like stranger in moscow, you are not alone, etc was the best by far. if it wasn't for those tracks, the albums would be really awful. that's what makes the albums post bad so patchy, really great tracks mixed in with terrible ones

i agree that bad wasn't as consistent either. when i bought it on day of release, of course expectations were high for the follow up to thriller, and i couldn't be more dissapointed. dangerous was a far bigger dissapointment, but expectations weren't so high that time around, and by history it made me realise that bad wasn't such an awful album after all. invincible had a great lead single that just make the album all the more dissapointing, as nothing else on the album was half as good as that

it's interesting that someone mentioned heartbreak hotel, as that track is about 30 years old now and whilst not the greatest of tracks, it has a charm and style that was lost come the 90s, when real drums and bass had no place in michael studio. part of the problem perhaps was that the 70s and early 80s sound was routed in disco, soul and funk, but those sounds became too dated for the later 80s and for the 90s, and new jack swing and the modern RNB sound became popular instead, so the styles of music that formed the classic MJ sound were disguarded and replaced by a sound that didn't really suit him so well. scream, remember the time, jam, etc are just lame compared to the earlier tracks with real musicians playing on them instead of drum machines and sequencers. by the time of invincible the drum machines and sequencers seemed to have taken over and written the muzak instead of humans. working with will i am isn't going to help him much, not now that BEPs are no longer interesting to the public, he's about 5 or 6 years too late for that. a timbaland album may be interesting, but again 3 or 4 years too late, likewise with the neptunes. probably the only interesting production could come from someone like beck. someone like MJ needs an interesting writer and producer, and a decent band to back him live, and ditch the tired dance routines, lip synching and tasteless stage displays with kids, and just stand still and sing properly, instead of the whoeful vocal performances when he did opt to sing instead of lipsynch. you would have thought after the first tour he would have made an attempt to sing wanna be startin something without sounding like an obese man that's just walked up 10 flights of stairs. and for fucks sake stop the "whoo hoos", "he hees" and other stupid noises. they might have been fine in 1984, but along with the stupid crotch grabbing, they aren't appropriate for a 50 year old

To me Bad had some songs which weren't that great- example Just Good Friends and Speed Demon. Even Leave me Alone wasn't all that great. Although Quincy and MJ accomplished a lot, Michael came out with an even better album after Bad (With Teddy Riley's help).

I find the Dangerous album a lot better than the Bad album, but I don't think History or Invincble is better than Bad. All of the songs from Dangerous were awesome.

[Edited 4/14/09 17:29pm]
[Edited 4/14/09 17:31pm]

unique said:

I'm all for him re-inventing himself, but I personally believe that the hooooos and the heeeees sounds are his trademark. If he can still pull it at 50 years old, fine with me.

I've stated it before but there are certain expectations of MJ - people want to see the dance routines, they want to see the moonwalk, they want the glove and the hat, they want the whoo hoo and hee hees - both for the nostalgia and for the excitement seeing him in his trademark elements bring.

I agree with Unique in that I would love for him to be recording with a live drummer, bass just for that raw energy. Too often these days people bring out the tired and overused 808 (talk about nostalgia) and we end up with dated tracks just months after the release. Part of the thing that makes tracks from OTW and Thriller so timeless is the live band feel, something I hope we get to hear more of in any new release, but it seems these days modern producers don't think beyond a drum machine.

Swa

angel345 said:

i know what you mean, but prince used to have his screams like "iowa" etc, and a whole bunch of other trademarks, but they were perhaps fine at the time, but not so appropriate when you are 40 or 50 years old, instead of a 20 somethine. prince doesn't even swear or talk dirty onstage or in the studio anymore for example, and his 80s and early to mid 90s material and shows were thick of it. there are plenty of artists who did certain things when they were younger, but now they are veteran artists they have an older fanbase and don't do certain things as they aren't appropriate

looking back on some of the live MJ shows for example, he had so many cringeworthy moments in his show, like bringing all the kids on stage, it's no wonder jarvis cocker invaded the stage at the brit awards, he would have had a shit fit if he saw the tank onstage at seoul, speaking of which, how extremely dodgy did it look when he was grabbing onto the young asian boy on the crane? when he interacted with the female fans brought onto the stage at points he wasn't half as "friendly" with them. and whilst prince and madonna seemed to be battling for the most awful outfits in history, the gold lame leotard worn over the top of black half mast trousers showing white sox is probably the worst thing i've ever seen. when he does that move that looks like he's bending down to sit on the toilet with legs apart, and one hand grabbing his crotch whilst he jumps forward wearing that outfit, it's just soooo wrong

whilst certainly a lot of people would be dissapointed if he didn't moonwalk, he only did it about 2 or 3 times during a show. there were maybe another 2 or 3 main choreographed parts during a show, such as thriller and smooth criminal, but frankly when he was the only dancer onstage and doing solo moves, most of them were pretty lame and cringeworthy. he has a few moves that look cool, but he just repeats them too much or goes to far with them. if the moonwalk is such an important part of his live show, it doesn't say much for the overall show does it? prince doing the splits was something many fans loved, but he no longer does that, and he used to burn up the stage with far more interesting and energetic moves than MJ, but no longer does any of it, and does his show suffer from it? not at all, as the show is based around music instead of dancing, and it's the music that you buy that forms the most important part of your interest in an artist, and not the videos and extranous stuff.

i think MJ went too far in making videos instead of concentrating on the music. they spent a fortune on captain eo, ghosts and moonwalker, and they are pretty embarrassing to watch now, that's if you can face watching all the way through. they are aimed at kids instead of adults, and aren't really as timeless or charming as other kid movies from say the 80s that you could still rewatch now. making 28 movies really screwed up elvis, with him contractually bound to record a soundtrack for each, with music he personally hated, and he even hated the movies he was making, and i think it's a similar thing with MJ, he sidetracked himself too much from making good music and spent too much time on the videos. likewise with the stage show, it's like a cross between a concert and a "show", but it doesn't work well. there was so much lipsynching going on in the dangerous tour that he may as well just made it a full blown show isntead of a concert, and just lip synched and put on a theatrical production instead. when he sang live during the bad tour it mostly sang awful due to being out of breathe all the time. he's obviously more interested in putting on a show, but he just didn't have the right balance. now he's 50, maybe he can make up for the past by putting on an actual concert and singing live and sounding good, with arrangements that suit the music, instead of the awful sped up arrangements from previous tours. a real band is just what he needs. ironically the 808 is having another round of nostalgia again, but i doubt MJ will go for the electro sound like kayne and common are currently using, which could be interesting, so he's best to go back to the instrumentation he was using when he was popular in the 80s. prince does well by having a proper band, and i think madonna similarly sounds bad during her live performances, for most of the same reasons as MJ, but she manages to pull the whole thing off a bit better, and she's still knocking out hit albums and singles, and after all this time, they are still fairly decent. my view is if madonna can still have hits, then so can MJ, as they both essentially pay other people to create albums and hits for them, and then make the videos, and madonna has even more kids, so if she can do it, why can't MJ?

Well, MJ is who he is, Prince, Madonna and all of the artists out there are who they are. Therefore, I believe the comments are subjective and I don't believe that their lifestyles should be compared. It's like comparing me to you or apples to oranges. Everyone has a uniqueness about them, and you know this . Personally, I believe what Jarvis Crocker did was rude, even if it's not to his taste. He could have addressed his concerns either before or after the show to someone in charge. How would he like it if someone crashed his show? I think that it's better until that day comes when he starts touring to see what he puts out there for the fans, non-fans or even the critics, for we don't know yet.
[Edited 4/15/09 5:58am]

angel345 said:

Totally agree, all the talk of what should, will and won't be on a show or album is totally speculative. Yes I can see the appeal in doing a wishlist of performed tracks (lord knows I've done mine) but as you state until opening night we don't 100% know what to expect.

I just hope, despite the hunger there will be to tear him down, the first night is a fun show for the fans there.

Swa

PatrickS77 said:

Luv U Patsy!!!!

They're still auditioning dancers for the shows. They auditioned female dancers yesterday at the Kodak theatre in L.A

The dancers that we know are:
Lavelle Smith
Travis Payne
The Talauega Brothers

who has auditioned:
The Twinz (yes, "those" twins ) (they auditioned for the shows this week....)
[Edited 4/15/09 15:19pm]

bboy87 said:

Little known fact - The Twinz met Michael back in the History days when he toured Australia.

Swa

It'll be interesting to see what the "Twins" will do for Michael's tour...

They've held male and female dancer auditions for the shows this week in LA. So I think those recent pics of MJ coming out of a studio actually weren't auditions as per http://lesliemjhu.blogspot.com/ but it wasn't far of the mark, since the auditions have been held this week anyways. Let's hope he gets some fresh male & female dancers for the shows!

marnifrances said:

He's been rehearsing for the past 2 or 3 months, but now they're scouting dancers

you gotta have the routines ready before you get the dancers IMO

bboy87 said:

Yes! exactly. You gotta get them together first before bringing in new dancers. So, in theory, he should have them altogether now and once he has the dancers he wants, it will just be a crazy 2 and a half months of rehearsals for everyone.

Surely he'd have all his singers ready by now?

marnifrances said:

From experience, coming up with the routines AFTER you've got the dancers=NIGHTMARE

Just found a few other dancers on twitter who have auditioned for Michael:

http://iamerynnjoi.blogspot.com/ http://twitter.com/ERYNNJOI

http://twitter.com/dannydavalos

http://twitter.com/MrMarkSamuels

http://twitter.com/Islarose87

http://twitter.com/charamonanjaya

http://twitter.com/msvictoria

marnifrances said:

interesting..... I wonder how many dancers are they looking for....

bboy87 said:

They only needed 3 females:

http://victoriaparsons.blogspot.com/

marnifrances said:

Alright cool. I knew they weren't gonna be using the "army of dancers"

It'll be 5 male dancers and 3 female dancers

bboy87 said:

EDIT: According to that blog, it's 6 males with 4 alternates and 2 females with 1 alternate.
[Edited 4/16/09 0:46am]

unique said:

So true. The only outtake of his that was genuinely good was "Someone put your hand out". Otherwise, they are mediocre at best. With Springsteen, Prince or Dylan their outakes and b-sides are frequently ASTONISHING! With MJ they're not really even good. The scarcity of decent outtakes really undermines his claims to greatness as a songwriter because it means his body of good self-written songs is extremely slim. He's possibly the greatest performer of his generation, but as a songwriter he lags far behind at least a hundred other writers.

bboy87 said:

WOW, I just can´t wait for the shows.

Swa said:

midnightmover said:

whatever theres been like what maybe 20-25 songs leaked from his back catalouge. out of the hundreds he wrote and you undermine his writing abilities on thoses few songs? whatever you will belive what you what so i see no reason to argue with you however i would like to leave you with this you shoud read it and then examine yourself.

http://www.articlesbase.c...99543.html

cdcgold said:

who the fuck would be jealous of michael jackson? the dude was abused as a child by his father and went on to abuse other children, and twice narrowly escape being locked up for it. he's been forced to near bankruptcy, had two failed marraiges, and appears to live an unfortunate life due to his repressed homosexuality preventing him from being himself

even his most hardcore fans wouldn't want to be in his shoes

i'm not sure if you are familiar with his back catalogue, but if you have a listen through the entire catalogue from the early days onwards, including the rare and unreleased tracks that are circulating, you will note that whilst there are a couple of dozen or so fantastic tracks, out of the couple of hundred or so, the remaining majority aren't a patch on those stand out tracks, and concentrating on the unreleased material you will clearly see that material is of very poor quality compared to his better known work

if you want to put his writing under the microcope, you will find that it's far from a work of great art. take his biggest most well know hit, billie jean for example, hardly the work of a genuis is it? and other hits like we are the world, heal the world, etc all follow the same cheesey smaltzy lyrical style that you would expect of a 9 year old child. he had hits with tracks he had some involvement in writing, but don't kid yourself into thinking his lyrics are a work of intelligent art. google up the lyrics to some of your favourite michael jackson songs and just read them out loud. it's pop music with disposable lyrics, not advanced literature

http://www.vegasdeluxe.co...special-e/


While at The Joint ribbon-cutting ceremony in the Hard Rock Hotel on Tuesday, I took the opportunity to talk with AEG Live/Concerts West President John Meglen about AEG’s concert-run plans with King of Pop Michael Jackson at their 02 Arena in London starting July 8.

John told me: “Michael is at the very beginning stage with Kenny Ortega, who is creating the staging. They are finishing up with the musical director and starting to talk about what musicians they want. Michael is working on a lot of dance stuff at home. The work at the studio right now is more about planning meetings: the initial stages of production, then the rehearsals, all get going in L.A.

“Once everybody is set, we will ship everything to London in the beginning of June and continue over there. It’s not far out now, just six weeks. It comes up fast. It seemed much farther away, but July8 is now right around the corner.

“There will be special effects, explosions and definitely magic. I can’t say who he’s worked with. Michael and Kenny came here to Vegas. They went to Le Reve at the Wynn, and Kenny went to see the Criss Angel show. There will definitely be magical elements in the show.”

I learned that Michael would perform from an end stage and not in the round as Prince did at the 02 Arena. John, who will be attending the premiere of Peepshow on Saturday at Planet Hollywood and returns here for his Britney Spears tour stop at the MGM Grand on April25, added: “We are very fortunate as the economy is not impacting our tours and ticket sales.

“It’s holding very nicely at the high end, and even with Bette Midler now doing 100 shows a year at the Caesars Palace Colosseum, we rarely dip below 80 percent occupancy, and that’s just great!”

Michael Jackson Selects Dancers

[Musicgoss THIS IS IT update]

Michael Jackson has reportedly selected the dancers he wishes to use on his upcoming “This Is It” Tour.

A number of the dancers present at the auditions have revealed details via social networking and blogs.

It is understood that Jackson has booked 6 men (with 4 understudies) and 2 women (with 2 understudies) on a 2-year contract to perform “national” and “international” venues on the “This Is It” tour. Some of the female dancers can be quoted as saying the booking was worth $80,000 per dancer.

The auditions were held in an elimination format. There were originally hundreds of the world’s finest dancers (guys on Monday and girls on Tuesday) audition for the tour. Dancers had to be specially invited to take part, with the exception of a lucky few who’s agent pushed hard enough to get them in.

A final “call back” was held on Wednesday in LA to determine who would book the gig, where dancers performed hours of choreography for the man himself. Michael, along with his choreographers and creative director Kenny Ortega sat and viewed the auditions to come to their decision.

All of the dancers involved, those who made it and those who didn’t, are buzzing with excitement just to have been considered for the role. This audition for most was the opportunity of a lifetime. Michael Jackson is one of the most influencial dancers of ALL time.

The lucky ones have already been told of their booking but no “official” announement has been made as to who the dancers that made it are.

More to come. Stay tuned!

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