NuPwr319 said:

I'm sayin, they making the whole way through the Native Tongues and Flavor Unit without hailing the Queen!

dseann said:

But GangStarr produced:

A Daily Operation
Step Into The Arena
Hard To Earn
The Moment of Truth
The Ownerz

Over nearly a decade and a half. Naughty didn't even last beyond half that. And Primo, actually, produced a number of tracks on his own, most recently, "Classic."

And as you yourself pointed out, you can't weigh the JB's influence and legacy by number of "hits" (what about "Straight Out The Jungle"?). Their album Done By The Forces of Nature, produced by Kool DJ Red Alert (who deserves consideration as well), is one of the greatest hip-hop LPs of all time!

Cinnie said:

No, the JB's are still waiting.

NuPwr319 said:

If I'm not mistaken, when Latifah was considered to be honored, she requested it not happen citing it would suggest she had achieved all that she could with her career.

Cinnie said:

So I'm not a fan of either Gangstar or The Jungle Brothers. Sue me.

namepeace said:

Where did I say that Naughty By Nature should be recognized ahead of EPMD?

namepeace said:

Classic is a timeless track. Love it to death, mostly because of Rakim and Nas coming together. But, Done By The Forces of Nature, produced by Kool DJ Red Alert (who deserves consideration as well), is one of the greatest hip-hop LPs of all time! ? I don't know about that.

like Willie D. said in 91' YO MAN THE WINNER IS THE GODDAMN GETO BOYS FOR MOST CUSSWORDS IN A SONG!!!!! BEEEYAAATCH!!!!!

dseann said:

That was actually a question. Had you actually said that, the query would have been posed as, "DID you really say that . . ."

dseann said:

Absolutely. In the context of the instant comparison, stack that album up to any of NBN's. I know you're not a fan of either, but have you heard it?

namepeace said:

Not ahead of EPMD... but certainly ahead of Jungle Bros or Gangstarr.

Note I'm coming from a Chi-town perspective and was dancing in all the clubs to hits by Naughty and EPMD. Along with a lot of West Coast rap they got a lot of play in the clubs, house parties and in the rides with the 16" woofers in the trunk.

Ganstar and a lot of other NY groups just didn't cut it here as much.

What I'm saying is basically during the 80'd to the mid 90's where you lived played a large part as to what rap acts you heard and liked most. Chi-town never got into the JBs that much nor Gangstarr. But loved Naughty.

If I had to submit a few acts to be nominated my list would include...

- Digital Underground (2nd fav group of all time)
- Dr. Dre (with track record I'm surprised he hasn;t been honored)
- Ghetto Boys (One of the pioneers of gangsta putting the south on the map)
- Luke and the 2 Live Crew (Miami bass... they did more for the industry and free speech than anyone)
- Doug E. Fresh (With no Doug there would never have been a Slick Rick)
- MC Hammer (If Too Short lyrically inept ass can get honored... Hammer should)
- Twista (No equal to this Chi-Town lyricist)

Other acts are all ready in there or going in this year i would have said... like De La Soul for instance.

MuthaFunka said:

Off the top of my head I count 4 hits: O.P.P, Hip-Hop Hooray, Uptown Anthem (not a big fan of that one), Ghetto Bastard. There's probably a couple of others but I'm drawing a blank. Pioneering doesn't mean a whole lot if you don't make good music-- Jungle Brothers. De La was cool but last time I checked Midnight Marauders was a Tribe album. You and the purists can have your "pioneers". Quite often those that do something first don't do it best. Somebody usually comes along with the benefit of perspective and building on what's already been done, makes it better. It's cool to come up with an idea but those that can put it into practice are the ones deserving of the lionshare of the praise.
[Edited 8/17/08 23:04pm]

I think Naughty is a good choice, they have some classics in they're catalog, OPP, Uptown Anthem, Hip Hop Horay, Everything's Gonna Be Alright(Ghetto Bastard), Craziest, Written On Ya Kitten(remix), Feel Me Flow, It's On.. They got alot of airplay here in Philly, way more then The Jungle Bros when both were on the scene like that.

namepeace said:

You said one of the greatest hip hop albums of all time. I can't agree with that.

I'll compare it to Naughty By Nature. OPP, Ghetto Bastard, Let the Ho's Go, Guard Your Grill and Uptown Anthem.

I'm not saying that Naughty has one of the greatest hip hop albums of all time but it is a hip hop classic. And yes I have heard Gangstar's Forces of Nature.

namepeace said:

The thing is I never said NBN should be recognized above EPMD, in fact I stated the opposite, so why would you pose that question?
We might have a difference of opinion about Gangstar but I'm not fucking crazy. NBN over EPMD? ... Shiiiiit!
[Edited 8/18/08 8:40am]

BigDaddyHQ said:

But you guys are just going off the popularity of their 2 hits.

whodknee said:

Uptown Anthem and Ghetto Bastard weren't hits. Regionally? Maybe. But not like their 2 real hits.

And that's your opinion if you don't think the JBs made good music, or it's your lack of knowledge on either them or Hip Hop in general, which I believe it's in fact the latter. But again, it IS about pioneering, no matter who came after them and blew it up better.

Abdul said:

I'll give you NBN headz "Written on ya Kitten" as a mild hit. But they still deserve to be honored.

BigDaddyHQ said:

I agree with you. Thehe funny thing is that I grew up in New York and in the early 90's lived in Illinois. I hung out on Green Street in Champagne a lot in those days (the U district) and like you said, Jungle Brothers and Gangstar weren't the featured hip hop acts at that time. I remembered when Jungle Brothers started doing their thing, I was living in Queens, New York at the time and neither me nor my friends got into them that much. We just didn't think what they were doing was that special. De La Soul, on the other hand we got right into back in early 88 with their first single "Pluck Tuning". For those who don't know, it came out around the same time with Keith Sweat's "I Want Her" and Al B. Sure's "Night And Day".
[Edited 8/18/08 10:11am]

dseann said:

No, you never said it. But you were touting NBN to begin with, and the question was asked in the context of assessing their place in hip-hop history vis-a-vis other notable artists of the time. Which is a fairly routine question one asks in honors of this type. I asked the question precisely because you didn't address it. I asked it rhetorically, but I don't think the gist or the context is that difficult to understand.

For the record, Done By the Forces of Nature is a JB's album, not a Gang Starr album..

dseann said:

If the standard is personal preference and what was hittin' on the streets, then any argument could be made for any act. Not to say that NBN doesn't deserve some type or recognition, but as MuthaFunka said, the overriding standard is legacy and impact in honors of this type.

You mentioned the JB's music not being played in the clubs, or people not being "into" them around the time they dropped. My recollection is a little different. During that time, I was living in the south, and attending college in the north, and I heard "Girl, I'll House You" in the clubs. I heard "Buddy" as well. The JBs were among the first rockin' the black medallions, and on the consciouness tip. They helped pave the way for Brand Nubian, KMD, and yes, Da La and A Tribe Called Quest.

As for Gang Starr, well, they had a following at that time, too. Granted, they dropped around the time PE, De La and others were at their peak, and NWA and others were coming along on the West Coast. But I used to hear "Mass Appeal," "Dwyck," "Just To Get A Rep," et al. in the clubs, on the yard, in the streets, etc. Hip-hop heads back then knew who they were and gave them love.


[Edited 8/18/08 11:34am]

MuthaFunka said:

Naughty made several hip-hop classics, but if we're judging hip-hop legacies on the basis of popularity in the early 90's, era, Hammer and Vanilla Ice should get in before NBN!

namepeace said:

And on the real, I only count 2 true Hip Hop classics of theirs. But yeah, Hammmer should get in before NBN, that's REAL.

i understand naughty by nature.they had opp which was one of hip hops 1st huge sellers.ghetto bastard.feel me flow.hip hop hurray.jamboree..but no latifah.and i love missy.but her before latifah or roxanne shante or da brat(1st female to go platinum..lp and single) or even lil kim(she WAS the 1st one to go multi platinum and the 1st one to number 1 on the pop charts)

where's dre?
n.w.a.?
rick rueben?
def jam,cold chillin,and suger hill record labels?

khemseraph said:

Damn, good one. Rick Rueben should be in as well.

MuthaFunka said:

No.... I'm going off of what was being played everywhere. Thier 'hits' were for sure played on radio... but thier entire albums were bumping in the rides at the beach, parks, etc. Thier hits got them noticed... but Treach's mic skills got them famous. But as I said... hip hop was at the time growing into a very regional thing... and Chicago being a 'dance music' city... was more into hip hop acts which were very danceable and/or had a beat which sounded good in thier cars.

I'm not going to say we didn't play 'any' JBs or Gangstarr... but they just weren't that special. Our local house music DJs and 'hip-house' acts (like Fast Eddie) were more important to us than most acts which came out of 'East Coast' hip-hop. In fact.. the biggest song in these parts by the JBs was thier Chicago 'hip-house' inspired, 'I'll House You'.

I gaurantee you as you head to the west coast... they would list a dozen or so acts ahead of them with out hesitation. NWA, DJ Quick, Digital Underground, Hammer, Sir Mix-a-lot, Tone Loc, etc

Only the most die-hard of hip-hop purist who feels that the roots of hip-hop began and ended in NYC would dis-agree. But to a large portion of the country... those acts and a few more were more important to hip hop as they diversified the sound and gave identity to other areas of the country.

One last note on the JBs is that I believe nationally a lot of thier thunder was stolen by De La Soul and Tribe. Of the three groups... he JBs were the least known.

MuthaFunka said:

Vanilla Ice..... no.

But yeah Hammer I agree with and did list him amoung those I felt was worthy of honors.

Popularity does not have to be a qualifier for establishing a hip hop legacy or an artist impact on the genre... but it has to be considered. Vanilla Ice was nothing more than a marketed 'white' version of Hammer. Hammer on the other hand built his nitch from scratch. For better or for wrst he had a major impact on hip hop/rap music.

namepeace said:

How To Roll A Blunt was the standout song from Gangstar. Thought it was hilarious. I first got into Jungle Brothers in 87 if memory serves me correctly. The song was Jimbrowski, which was basically the blueprint for My Buddy. I didn't say other people weren't into them at the time, what I said was that me and my crew didn't think they were special then, I don't think they are now. It's funny though that they did launch the career of A Tribe Called Quest who couldn't stand the concept of mixing hip hop with other genres which Jungle Brothers loved doing.

BigDaddyHQ said:

Not to mention Cypress Hill, Paris, Souls of Mischief, E-40, the D.O.C., and other West Coast greats.



No one's disputing that, I was into Eazy-E, Ice-T and Too Short before I got into PE, BDP, De La, et al. Hell, I had heard Swass before Yo! Bum Rush The Show! And I'd take Chi-Town's finest, Common, over a majority of the MC's anywhere. Don't forget Philly with The Roots. They deserve their place at the table.

But NYC was the nerve center for hip-hop from the 70's to the early-to-mid 90's. The West Coast was it in the 90's, and today, it's the South.




No doubt about it.