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ozone14 said:[quote] Moonbeam said: HamsterHuey said: 1 bad song: The Lady in My Life 1 horrific song: The Girl Is Mine I sort of agree with The Girls Is Mine but i wouldn't say it's horrific. But The Lady In My Life?  That's his best love song ever. It's also the only love song where he actually comes across kinda convincing as a lover.I don't know why, but that made me laugh. lol But don't forget Rock With You.
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Dance said: Janet has a career because she's Mike's sister, she had the wonder twins behind her when they were hottest, and because of timing.
If you'll notice the chick fell flat on her face since people turned on Wacko, the twins lost their touch, and public tastes changed. All her clones last two seconds. All the Hagdonna clones... When Michael became 'wacko' in the late 80s, thats when Janet's career took off. Janet was still in her prime in 1993 when the allegations broke. Success doesn't come off the back of who you're related to. In that case, what happened to Solange? lol. You know, Beyonce's sister. Tuls101 said: Rodya24 said: He meant songwriting. MJ wrote most of his signature songs alone. Don't Stop Til' You Ge Enough, Billie Jean, Beat It, Wanna Be Startin' Somethin', The Way You Make Me Feel, Smooth Criminal, Dirty Diana. The list goes on. Of course, Rod Temperton wrote Rock With You, Off The Wall, Burn This Disco Out, The Lady in My Life, Baby Be Mine, and Thriller. How about Madonna? Aside from Lucky Star, what songs has she written alone that are considered her signature songs? [Edited 2/11/08 13:39pm] [Edited 2/11/08 13:39pm] You mentioned writing AND producing in an earlier post but, anyways.....So I guess since it took more than 1 Beatle to write many of their classic songs, there artistic merit should be discredited? Yes, Michael composes and writes his own songs. There are several demos available on special edition versions of his albums. lol I can't believe we're having this conversation. Billie Jean Demo http://youtube.com/watch?v=CcyJUg1_0F8 Working Day and Night Demo http://youtube.com/watch?v=BsaAFyr0VFE Don't stop til you get enough Demo http://youtube.com/watch?v=rpj3QYHy3qg Quincy interview - making of Off the Wall http://youtube.com/watch?v=ifpUboP8Gwo Tuls101 said: midnightmover said: The whole song is a hook. Listen to the melody and the drama the tune's got. This song is better than pretty much everything on Ray of Light. It's also worth mentioning that the biggest hits on Ray Of Light (the title track and "Frozen") were mostly written by others. And by the way, you said Jackson had only written four songs alone that you knew of. Right then you exposed yourself as an ignoramus. He wrote MOST of his signature songs alone. He also produced great tracks like "Stranger In Moscow", and "Who Is It?" by himself, as well as writing and producing a great track for Diana Ross called "Muscles".  You really need to give up on these MJ comparisons. You are only digging yourself into an even deeper hole.
When I think of signature MJ songs, Stranger in Moscow and Who Is It aren't what I have in mind. Billie Jean, Don't Stop Til You Get Enough, Thriller, Beat It etc etc. Those are the songs I'm speaking of and did he solely write and produce any of those? BTW I'm not the one who brought up MJ in the first place. Michael wrote and produced all those songs except Thriller, which was Rod Temperton. MICHAEL JACKSON composed the Beat It solo guitar Eddie Van Halen played. Tuls101 said: midnightmover said: It's very obvious Tuls101 knows NOTHING about MJ, and is making himself look ridiculous trying to salvage his already discredited argument. I know enough about MJ to know that he hasn't solely written and produced any of his signature songs. A real diehard music purist may dismiss his talent due to that fact, just the way some do with Madonna because she hasn't solely written or produced any of her songs. Have you been sipping that Jesus Juice? Rodya24 said: Tuls101 said: And none of that has anything to do with the fact that MJ still hasn't solely penned AND produced one of his signature songs. Nor has Madonna. But if you want to bring stuff up..... How about the fact Madonna has pissed off just about every group of people there is to piss off, she's been threatened with ex-communication from the Catholic church, the demise of her career has been imminent in the eyes of many critics since 1985...Paul Grein of Billboard predicted that year "she'll be out of the music industry in six months." Madonna has never been the "America's sweetheart" type. MJ on the other hand in the 80's was hanging with the Reagan's and EVERYBODY loved him (not that he didn't deserve it). Madonna has never had that kind of "universal love" that MJ had at his peak. Yet something is keeping her around....luck? manipulation? Couldn't be her music could it? Actually Madonna did demonstrate talents as a teen, the whole world just didn't see it since her daddy didn't beat her ass and make her go to dance class everyday. She did it on her own and got a scholarship to University Of Michigan, it was her dancing talent that brought her to NYC to begin with. Of course she went on a different path once she had been there a while. Comparing MJ and M's childhood is really pointless in this argument. Who's to say if Madonna had been pushed like MJ that she wouldn't have been famous earlier too? Apples and oranges there. 
When did MJ take dance class as a child? And his father is the reason why his voice was so phenomenal as a child? I see. Poor Madonna. No wonder she has such a mediocre voice. No father to beat her. It is called natural-born talent. And as for all her controversies, I suggest you take another look at that article Dance posted. Case in point, the Jackson 5 Motown audition. White Americans, what? Nothing better to do? Why don't you kick yourself out? You're an immigrant too. -White Stripes | |
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SoulAlive said: Glindathegood said: I think a lot of the hostility toward Madonna that I hear is not really about her music, but because some people don't like her as a person.Some people have this idea she is a cold unfeeling person because she is so professional and organized.She's not the type to get on tv and cry about all her problems. She deals with her issues more privately.
Some people like artists that they can feel sorry for. Who can feel sorry for Madonna? She has herself together. You totally hit the nail on the head! Alot of the resentment isn't even about her music.Alot of people resent her because she's focused,has her shit together,and shows no sign of slowing down.This is unusual in the pop music world,where most major artists crash and burn after awhile (Michael Jackson being the prime example).Many artists can't handle the fame,the success,the scrutiny,but Madonna handles it like a pro. OK, I am back because I have to respond to this ridiculous thread. You do realize that Michael Jackson joined the Jackson Five when he was five and became its lead singer at the age of seven? That he scored numerous number one and top ten hits with his brothers and as a solo artist before turning sixteen? That his last top ten hit in the United States was with the Invincible project in 2001 and 2002? This means that he has been in show business decades longer than Madonna. When Madonna reaches her fortieth year in show business, we shall see if she keeps producing hit singles and albums. From reading your post, one would think that MJ started achieving fame and success with Thriller.  | |
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Again....WHY IS THIS TURNING INTO A MADONNA VS. MJ THING!!!!!
Everybody knows Michael has more raw, musical talent than Madonna. That's no secret. But Madonna DOES HAVE MUSICAL TALENT. Whether you like or appreciate it is YOUR opinion. But it does exist. Deal with it. In prior posts people stated if Madonna were black she wouldn't be here today because of her lack of raw talent. I love how my post about Diana Ross gets conveniently ignored. Why is it that white singers with much better voices like Dusty Springfield and Marianne Faithful never reached the heights of success and stardom that Diana did? After all, like Madonna Diana doesn't have a strong voice, unlike Madonna, Diana doesn't even CO write or produce her material. Yet she became the biggest and most successful female artist out there UNTIL Madonna came along in the 80's. So the whole thing about if Madonna were black she wouldn't be here is yet more hater bullshit to try to discredit her as an artist. In fact, the fact that she was white in the VERY beginning of her career was seen as a liability by her record label, so they intentionally kept her face off of her first single because they didn't want to confuse people. Because surprise surprise.....many thought she WAS black. | |
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Tuls101 said: Again....WHY IS THIS TURNING INTO A MADONNA VS. MJ THING!!!!!
Everybody knows Michael has more raw, musical talent than Madonna. That's no secret. But Madonna DOES HAVE MUSICAL TALENT. Whether you like or appreciate it is YOUR opinion. But it does exist. Deal with it. In prior posts people stated if Madonna were black she wouldn't be here today because of her lack of raw talent. I love how my post about Diana Ross gets conveniently ignored. Why is it that white singers with much better voices like Dusty Springfield and Marianne Faithful never reached the heights of success and stardom that Diana did? After all, like Madonna Diana doesn't have a strong voice, unlike Madonna, Diana doesn't even CO write or produce her material. Yet she became the biggest and most successful female artist out there UNTIL Madonna came along in the 80's. So the whole thing about if Madonna were black she wouldn't be here is yet more hater bullshit to try to discredit her as an artist. In fact, the fact that she was white in the VERY beginning of her career was seen as a liability by her record label, so they intentionally kept her face off of her first single because they didn't want to confuse people. Because surprise surprise.....many thought she WAS black. I am sure whatsgoingon will respond to your post when she returns. She does not frequent the Org as some of us. And I thought Barbra Streisand was the most successful female recording artist along with Olivia Newton John? Diana Ross was successful as well, but so were these women. | |
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Rodya24 said: Tuls101 said: Again....WHY IS THIS TURNING INTO A MADONNA VS. MJ THING!!!!!
Everybody knows Michael has more raw, musical talent than Madonna. That's no secret. But Madonna DOES HAVE MUSICAL TALENT. Whether you like or appreciate it is YOUR opinion. But it does exist. Deal with it. In prior posts people stated if Madonna were black she wouldn't be here today because of her lack of raw talent. I love how my post about Diana Ross gets conveniently ignored. Why is it that white singers with much better voices like Dusty Springfield and Marianne Faithful never reached the heights of success and stardom that Diana did? After all, like Madonna Diana doesn't have a strong voice, unlike Madonna, Diana doesn't even CO write or produce her material. Yet she became the biggest and most successful female artist out there UNTIL Madonna came along in the 80's. So the whole thing about if Madonna were black she wouldn't be here is yet more hater bullshit to try to discredit her as an artist. In fact, the fact that she was white in the VERY beginning of her career was seen as a liability by her record label, so they intentionally kept her face off of her first single because they didn't want to confuse people. Because surprise surprise.....many thought she WAS black. I am sure whatsgoingon will respond to your post when she returns. She does not frequent the Org as some of us. And I thought Barbra Streisand was the most successful female recording artist along with Olivia Newton John? Diana Ross was successful as well, but so were these women. In terms of raw album albums sales it's hard to say because Motown didn't always report the sales of their artists' albums. Plus, the 60's, Diana's peak, was more of a "singles era" as opposed to the 70's when Barbra was at her peak and album sales were bigger and being tabulated more carefully. Actually, to this day Barbra is the highest selling female artist in the US eclipsing even Madonna. In terms of singles though, Diana was the WOMAN! I want to say between her solo stuff and her work with the Supremes she has something like 17 US number ones (you may have to give or take one). ONJ was successful, but not quite as big as Diana or Barbra. Also, from my understanding Diana was a much bigger global star than ONJ or Barbra. Both of whom could sing Diana under the table. [Edited 2/12/08 11:28am] | |
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Tuls101 said: Rodya24 said: I am sure whatsgoingon will respond to your post when she returns. She does not frequent the Org as some of us. And I thought Barbra Streisand was the most successful female recording artist along with Olivia Newton John? Diana Ross was successful as well, but so were these women. In terms of raw album albums sales it's hard to say because Motown didn't always report the sales of their artists' albums. Plus, the 60's, Diana's peak, was more of a "singles era" as opposed to the 70's when Barbra was at her peak and album sales were bigger and being tabulated more carefully. Actually, to this day Barbra is the highest selling female artist in the US eclipsing even Madonna. In terms of singles though, Diana was the WOMAN! I want to say between her solo stuff and her work with the Supremes she has something like 17 US number ones (you may have to give or take one). ONJ was successful, but not quite as big as Diana or Barbra. Also, from my understanding Diana was a much bigger global star than ONJ or Barbra. Both of whom could sing Diana under the table. [Edited 2/12/08 11:28am] I dislike all of the above women, so cannot write for certain who was the most successful artist in commercial terms. All I know is that all were successful, in particular BS and DS. Perhaps other orgers can help us? | |
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Tuls101 said: Again....WHY IS THIS TURNING INTO A MADONNA VS. MJ THING!!!!!
Everybody knows Michael has more raw, musical talent than Madonna. That's no secret. But Madonna DOES HAVE MUSICAL TALENT. Whether you like or appreciate it is YOUR opinion. But it does exist. Deal with it.
It's become this because you took it there and you might want to check out what Bell Hooks has to say about Madonna. Talent has nothing to do with Hagdonna's success or the fact that she's still around stinking things up. How I categorize someone's talents or abilities has nothing to do with whether or not I like their art. | |
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this is not a great article as it is just exploiting the fact that these famous people are turning 50
these 3 are legends, not just pop stars and to pit them against each other is unfair look at the other legends mentioned in the article, at this point in time their legacy is secure and i dare say, prince, madonna and mj are pretty secure too | |
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Dance said: Tuls101 said: Again....WHY IS THIS TURNING INTO A MADONNA VS. MJ THING!!!!!
Everybody knows Michael has more raw, musical talent than Madonna. That's no secret. But Madonna DOES HAVE MUSICAL TALENT. Whether you like or appreciate it is YOUR opinion. But it does exist. Deal with it.
It's become this because you took it there and you might want to check out what Bell Hooks has to say about Madonna. Talent has nothing to do with Hagdonna's success or the fact that she's still around stinking things up. How I categorize someone's talents or abilities has nothing to do with whether or not I like their art. No I didn't take it there. If you look back, I'm not the one who brought up MJ in the discussion that I was having. I know he was mentioned earlier in the thread before I even entered. But what is the point of arguing who has more raw talent? Of course Michael does, but that doesn't mean Madonna has none. And of course talent couldn't POSSIBLY have anything to do with Madonna's success...there is no way. She's fucked the right people, got lucky and has the business mind of a CEO..blah blah blah. In the words of one of Hagdonna's songs "I've heard it all before". I actually read Bell Hooks article and it's biased and inaccurate and reeks of jealousy. | |
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Tuls101 said: Dance said:
It's become this because you took it there and you might want to check out what Bell Hooks has to say about Madonna. Talent has nothing to do with Hagdonna's success or the fact that she's still around stinking things up. How I categorize someone's talents or abilities has nothing to do with whether or not I like their art. No I didn't take it there. If you look back, I'm not the one who brought up MJ in the discussion that I was having. I know he was mentioned earlier in the thread before I even entered. But what is the point of arguing who has more raw talent? Of course Michael does, but that doesn't mean Madonna has none. And of course talent couldn't POSSIBLY have anything to do with Madonna's success...there is no way. She's fucked the right people, got lucky and has the business mind of a CEO..blah blah blah. In the words of one of Hagdonna's songs "I've heard it all before". I actually read Bell Hooks article and it's biased and inaccurate and reeks of jealousy. I would appreciate it if you could post the article and refute the points you think are "biased and inaccurate" and which reflect what you call her "jealousy" of Madonna. | |
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Tuls101 said: Again....WHY IS THIS TURNING INTO A MADONNA VS. MJ THING!!!!!
Everybody knows Michael has more raw, musical talent than Madonna. That's no secret. But Madonna DOES HAVE MUSICAL TALENT. Whether you like or appreciate it is YOUR opinion. But it does exist. Deal with it. In prior posts people stated if Madonna were black she wouldn't be here today because of her lack of raw talent. I love how my post about Diana Ross gets conveniently ignored. Why is it that white singers with much better voices like Dusty Springfield and Marianne Faithful never reached the heights of success and stardom that Diana did? After all, like Madonna Diana doesn't have a strong voice, unlike Madonna, Diana doesn't even CO write or produce her material. Yet she became the biggest and most successful female artist out there UNTIL Madonna came along in the 80's. So the whole thing about if Madonna were black she wouldn't be here is yet more hater bullshit to try to discredit her as an artist. In fact, the fact that she was white in the VERY beginning of her career was seen as a liability by her record label, so they intentionally kept her face off of her first single because they didn't want to confuse people. Because surprise surprise.....many thought she WAS black. Diana Ross has a better voice than Madonna can ever have. She didn't have the typical gospel sounding voice like an Aretha Franklin but she had and still has a great voice which can be quite versatile. Madonna was a dance major and so what? She still ain't the best dancer out there. And I admire Madonna, she smart, very smart. Unlike Michael her personal life isn't full of nasty gossip. She manages to reinvent herself time after time which is her greatest talent. She is consistently touring and putting out records which reminds people whats she is all about....being an exhibitionist But she ain't got raw talent.
And another thing your knowledge of Michael Jackson is seems limited, the fact that you continue to insist that Michael has NEVER written any of his signature tunes himself so that you can compare him with Madonna who has hardly written any of her own hit songs makes it seem your grabbing at straws. [Edited 2/12/08 12:08pm] | |
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whatsgoingon said: Tuls101 said: Again....WHY IS THIS TURNING INTO A MADONNA VS. MJ THING!!!!!
Everybody knows Michael has more raw, musical talent than Madonna. That's no secret. But Madonna DOES HAVE MUSICAL TALENT. Whether you like or appreciate it is YOUR opinion. But it does exist. Deal with it. In prior posts people stated if Madonna were black she wouldn't be here today because of her lack of raw talent. I love how my post about Diana Ross gets conveniently ignored. Why is it that white singers with much better voices like Dusty Springfield and Marianne Faithful never reached the heights of success and stardom that Diana did? After all, like Madonna Diana doesn't have a strong voice, unlike Madonna, Diana doesn't even CO write or produce her material. Yet she became the biggest and most successful female artist out there UNTIL Madonna came along in the 80's. So the whole thing about if Madonna were black she wouldn't be here is yet more hater bullshit to try to discredit her as an artist. In fact, the fact that she was white in the VERY beginning of her career was seen as a liability by her record label, so they intentionally kept her face off of her first single because they didn't want to confuse people. Because surprise surprise.....many thought she WAS black. Diana Ross has a better voice than Madonna can ever have. She didn't have the typical gospel sounding voice like an Aretha Franklin but she had and still has a great voice which can be quite versatile. Madonna was a dance major and so what? She still ain't the best dancer out there. And I admire Madonna, she smart, very smart. Unlike Michael her personal life isn't full of nasty gossip. She manages to reinvent herself time after time which is her greatest talent. She is consistently touring and putting out records which reminds people whats she is all about....being an exhibitionist But she ain't got raw talent.Madonna's voice is quite versatile and has improved over the years. Diana on the other hand still sounds the same as she did in 1964. Her voice is the equivalent to Janet's in terms of strength. I will say Diana's voice has a "clearer" tone than Janet, but it's no more powerful. I could post clips of Madonna singing and she sounds downright operatic, of course she doesn't sing like that for her pop songs. But she DOES have a voice and unlike most artists the technicality of it has improved as she's aged rather than the other way around. Madonna wasn't just a dance major, she received a dance scholarship and was accepted into Alvin Ailey's dance company. I've never professed her to be the best dancer, singer or anything for that matter. But, she does have talent. Madonna's life isn't full of nasty gossip?? LOL. Not to the extent of being accused of molesting children, no, but Madonna has hardly gotten a "free pass" in the nasty gossip department over the past 25 years. Most recently she's been called a kidnapper and a loony cult member. Not to mention EVERYTHING she does no matter how charitable is seen as being calculating and manipulative. Aren't all famous people exhibitionists in a way?? Otherwise I don't think they would choose the entertainment industry as a career.So why pinpoint Madonna as being exhibitionist. At least she doesn't feel compelled to have giant, golden statues of herself floating down the Thames....talk about a big ego. | |
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Rodya24 said: Tuls101 said: No I didn't take it there. If you look back, I'm not the one who brought up MJ in the discussion that I was having. I know he was mentioned earlier in the thread before I even entered. But what is the point of arguing who has more raw talent? Of course Michael does, but that doesn't mean Madonna has none. And of course talent couldn't POSSIBLY have anything to do with Madonna's success...there is no way. She's fucked the right people, got lucky and has the business mind of a CEO..blah blah blah. In the words of one of Hagdonna's songs "I've heard it all before". I actually read Bell Hooks article and it's biased and inaccurate and reeks of jealousy. I would appreciate it if you could post the article and refute the points you think are "biased and inaccurate" and which reflect what you call her "jealousy" of Madonna. Look, I don't have the patience to sit and dissect every line of that article. I've read it a few times over the years actually. It's quite old. I just think the general tone of it is wrong and I think some of things she accuses Madonna of are just outlandish. One line that really gets me is: "Madonna is not breaking with any white supremacist, patriarchal status quo; she is endorsing and perpetuating it." That's a big exaggeration. Essentially, she is calling Madonna a white supremacist.The whole tone of the article is like this to me; one big fat exaggeration. Madonna (or any white artist that has embraced aspects of African-American culture...Elvis and Eminem come to mind) gets these same accusations thrown at them and it's fucking ridiculous. If she embraces it, she's USING African-American culture for her own gain. If she completely ignores it then she's shunning an entire group of people and is racist. And YES I do think there is some jealousy at hand when discussing why African-American's don't embrace her the way other groups do (women in particular). The way they see it the woman can't sing (because she doesn't have POWERHOUSE vocals) and can't dance (because she doesn't move like Michael or Janet) yet she's become arguably the biggest female entertainer in history on a pop culture and commercial level. Leaving favorites like Patti LaBelle, Aretha Franklin and many others over the years in the dust (COMMERCIALLY and in terms of POP CULTURE...so don't fucking freak out people...I'M NOT SAYING MADONNA CAN OUTSING THESE LADIES *rolls eyes*). That bothers the fuck out of some people. They don't think she's worthy of the success she's achieved is what it boils down to. So of course it's because she is white that she's able to get away with this. Not that she worked her ass off for years before it happened, not because maybe she was born with a little extra "blond ambition" that some just DON'T have no matter how much raw talent they are born with, not because her formative years perhaps shaped her into the strong, defiant woman she is, not because she's a MAJOR workhorse....it's just because she's white so she has the upper hand. How fucking ignorant, easy and predictable! | |
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Tuls101 said: whatsgoingon said: Diana Ross has a better voice than Madonna can ever have. She didn't have the typical gospel sounding voice like an Aretha Franklin but she had and still has a great voice which can be quite versatile. Madonna was a dance major and so what? She still ain't the best dancer out there. And I admire Madonna, she smart, very smart. Unlike Michael her personal life isn't full of nasty gossip. She manages to reinvent herself time after time which is her greatest talent. She is consistently touring and putting out records which reminds people whats she is all about....being an exhibitionist But she ain't got raw talent.Madonna's voice is quite versatile and has improved over the years. Diana on the other hand still sounds the same as she did in 1964. Her voice is the equivalent to Janet's in terms of strength. I will say Diana's voice has a "clearer" tone than Janet, but it's no more powerful. I could post clips of Madonna singing and she sounds downright operatic, of course she doesn't sing like that for her pop songs. But she DOES have a voice and unlike most artists the technicality of it has improved as she's aged rather than the other way around. Madonna wasn't just a dance major, she received a dance scholarship and was accepted into Alvin Ailey's dance company. I've never professed her to be the best dancer, singer or anything for that matter. But, she does have talent. Madonna's life isn't full of nasty gossip?? LOL. Not to the extent of being accused of molesting children, no, but Madonna has hardly gotten a "free pass" in the nasty gossip department over the past 25 years. Most recently she's been called a kidnapper and a loony cult member. Not to mention EVERYTHING she does no matter how charitable is seen as being calculating and manipulative. Aren't all famous people exhibitionists in a way?? Otherwise I don't think they would choose the entertainment industry as a career.So why pinpoint Madonna as being exhibitionist. At least she doesn't feel compelled to have giant, golden statues of herself floating down the Thames....talk about a big ego.
Operatic? | |
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Tuls101 said: Rodya24 said: I would appreciate it if you could post the article and refute the points you think are "biased and inaccurate" and which reflect what you call her "jealousy" of Madonna. Look, I don't have the patience to sit and dissect every line of that article. I've read it a few times over the years actually. It's quite old. I just think the general tone of it is wrong and I think some of things she accuses Madonna of are just outlandish. One line that really gets me is: "Madonna is not breaking with any white supremacist, patriarchal status quo; she is endorsing and perpetuating it." That's a big exaggeration. Essentially, she is calling Madonna a white supremacist.The whole tone of the article is like this to me; one big fat exaggeration. Madonna (or any white artist that has embraced aspects of African-American culture...Elvis and Eminem come to mind) gets these same accusations thrown at them and it's fucking ridiculous. If she embraces it, she's USING African-American culture for her own gain. If she completely ignores it then she's shunning an entire group of people and is racist. And YES I do think there is some jealousy at hand when discussing why African-American's don't embrace her the way other groups do (women in particular). The way they see it the woman can't sing (because she doesn't have POWERHOUSE vocals) and can't dance (because she doesn't move like Michael or Janet) yet she's become arguably the biggest female entertainer in history on a pop culture and commercial level. Leaving favorites like Patti LaBelle, Aretha Franklin and many others over the years in the dust (COMMERCIALLY and in terms of POP CULTURE...so don't fucking freak out people...I'M NOT SAYING MADONNA CAN OUTSING THESE LADIES *rolls eyes*). That bothers the fuck out of some people. They don't think she's worthy of the success she's achieved is what it boils down to. So of course it's because she is white that she's able to get away with this. Not that she worked her ass off for years before it happened, not because maybe she was born with a little extra "blond ambition" that some just DON'T have no matter how much raw talent they are born with, not because her formative years perhaps shaped her into the strong, defiant woman she is, not because she's a MAJOR workhorse....it's just because she's white so she has the upper hand. How fucking ignorant, easy and predictable! You missed the thesis of the article as well its major points. | |
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Rodya24 said: Tuls101 said: Look, I don't have the patience to sit and dissect every line of that article. I've read it a few times over the years actually. It's quite old. I just think the general tone of it is wrong and I think some of things she accuses Madonna of are just outlandish. One line that really gets me is: "Madonna is not breaking with any white supremacist, patriarchal status quo; she is endorsing and perpetuating it." That's a big exaggeration. Essentially, she is calling Madonna a white supremacist.The whole tone of the article is like this to me; one big fat exaggeration. Madonna (or any white artist that has embraced aspects of African-American culture...Elvis and Eminem come to mind) gets these same accusations thrown at them and it's fucking ridiculous. If she embraces it, she's USING African-American culture for her own gain. If she completely ignores it then she's shunning an entire group of people and is racist. And YES I do think there is some jealousy at hand when discussing why African-American's don't embrace her the way other groups do (women in particular). The way they see it the woman can't sing (because she doesn't have POWERHOUSE vocals) and can't dance (because she doesn't move like Michael or Janet) yet she's become arguably the biggest female entertainer in history on a pop culture and commercial level. Leaving favorites like Patti LaBelle, Aretha Franklin and many others over the years in the dust (COMMERCIALLY and in terms of POP CULTURE...so don't fucking freak out people...I'M NOT SAYING MADONNA CAN OUTSING THESE LADIES *rolls eyes*). That bothers the fuck out of some people. They don't think she's worthy of the success she's achieved is what it boils down to. So of course it's because she is white that she's able to get away with this. Not that she worked her ass off for years before it happened, not because maybe she was born with a little extra "blond ambition" that some just DON'T have no matter how much raw talent they are born with, not because her formative years perhaps shaped her into the strong, defiant woman she is, not because she's a MAJOR workhorse....it's just because she's white so she has the upper hand. How fucking ignorant, easy and predictable! You missed the thesis of the article as well its major points. No I didn't. I just don't agree with it. Come on.....she compared Madonna to a white supremacist, not much needs to be said after that. This "article" is a complete exaggeration. | |
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Rodya24 said: Tuls101 said: Madonna's voice is quite versatile and has improved over the years. Diana on the other hand still sounds the same as she did in 1964. Her voice is the equivalent to Janet's in terms of strength. I will say Diana's voice has a "clearer" tone than Janet, but it's no more powerful. I could post clips of Madonna singing and she sounds downright operatic, of course she doesn't sing like that for her pop songs. But she DOES have a voice and unlike most artists the technicality of it has improved as she's aged rather than the other way around. Madonna wasn't just a dance major, she received a dance scholarship and was accepted into Alvin Ailey's dance company. I've never professed her to be the best dancer, singer or anything for that matter. But, she does have talent. Madonna's life isn't full of nasty gossip?? LOL. Not to the extent of being accused of molesting children, no, but Madonna has hardly gotten a "free pass" in the nasty gossip department over the past 25 years. Most recently she's been called a kidnapper and a loony cult member. Not to mention EVERYTHING she does no matter how charitable is seen as being calculating and manipulative. Aren't all famous people exhibitionists in a way?? Otherwise I don't think they would choose the entertainment industry as a career.So why pinpoint Madonna as being exhibitionist. At least she doesn't feel compelled to have giant, golden statues of herself floating down the Thames....talk about a big ego.
Operatic? http://www.youtube.com/wa...V34FOaenbw Before someone exaggerates something I say again. I'm not saying she's fucking Pavarotti, but she can sing. She has a voice. Go figure!!? | |
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Tuls101 said: Rodya24 said: I would appreciate it if you could post the article and refute the points you think are "biased and inaccurate" and which reflect what you call her "jealousy" of Madonna. Look, I don't have the patience to sit and dissect every line of that article. I've read it a few times over the years actually. It's quite old. I just think the general tone of it is wrong and I think some of things she accuses Madonna of are just outlandish. One line that really gets me is: "Madonna is not breaking with any white supremacist, patriarchal status quo; she is endorsing and perpetuating it." That's a big exaggeration. Essentially, she is calling Madonna a white supremacist.The whole tone of the article is like this to me; one big fat exaggeration. Madonna (or any white artist that has embraced aspects of African-American culture...Elvis and Eminem come to mind) gets these same accusations thrown at them and it's fucking ridiculous. If she embraces it, she's USING African-American culture for her own gain. If she completely ignores it then she's shunning an entire group of people and is racist. And YES I do think there is some jealousy at hand when discussing why African-American's don't embrace her the way other groups do (women in particular). The way they see it the woman can't sing (because she doesn't have POWERHOUSE vocals) and can't dance (because she doesn't move like Michael or Janet) yet she's become arguably the biggest female entertainer in history on a pop culture and commercial level. Leaving favorites like Patti LaBelle, Aretha Franklin and many others over the years in the dust (COMMERCIALLY and in terms of POP CULTURE...so don't fucking freak out people...I'M NOT SAYING MADONNA CAN OUTSING THESE LADIES *rolls eyes*). That bothers the fuck out of some people. They don't think she's worthy of the success she's achieved is what it boils down to. So of course it's because she is white that she's able to get away with this. Not that she worked her ass off for years before it happened, not because maybe she was born with a little extra "blond ambition" that some just DON'T have no matter how much raw talent they are born with, not because her formative years perhaps shaped her into the strong, defiant woman she is, not because she's a MAJOR workhorse....it's just because she's white so she has the upper hand. How fucking ignorant, easy and predictable! I agree she is hard working and ambitious, more so than most. But I am also sure if she were a black woman no matter how attractive, ambitious or hard-working she is, she would have been dismissed years ago, because if your black and you ain't got much raw talent your definetly wouldn't be revered in the same way Madonna is and seen as an icon in the same way. Eve | |
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whatsgoingon said: Tuls101 said: Look, I don't have the patience to sit and dissect every line of that article. I've read it a few times over the years actually. It's quite old. I just think the general tone of it is wrong and I think some of things she accuses Madonna of are just outlandish. One line that really gets me is: "Madonna is not breaking with any white supremacist, patriarchal status quo; she is endorsing and perpetuating it." That's a big exaggeration. Essentially, she is calling Madonna a white supremacist.The whole tone of the article is like this to me; one big fat exaggeration. Madonna (or any white artist that has embraced aspects of African-American culture...Elvis and Eminem come to mind) gets these same accusations thrown at them and it's fucking ridiculous. If she embraces it, she's USING African-American culture for her own gain. If she completely ignores it then she's shunning an entire group of people and is racist. And YES I do think there is some jealousy at hand when discussing why African-American's don't embrace her the way other groups do (women in particular). The way they see it the woman can't sing (because she doesn't have POWERHOUSE vocals) and can't dance (because she doesn't move like Michael or Janet) yet she's become arguably the biggest female entertainer in history on a pop culture and commercial level. Leaving favorites like Patti LaBelle, Aretha Franklin and many others over the years in the dust (COMMERCIALLY and in terms of POP CULTURE...so don't fucking freak out people...I'M NOT SAYING MADONNA CAN OUTSING THESE LADIES *rolls eyes*). That bothers the fuck out of some people. They don't think she's worthy of the success she's achieved is what it boils down to. So of course it's because she is white that she's able to get away with this. Not that she worked her ass off for years before it happened, not because maybe she was born with a little extra "blond ambition" that some just DON'T have no matter how much raw talent they are born with, not because her formative years perhaps shaped her into the strong, defiant woman she is, not because she's a MAJOR workhorse....it's just because she's white so she has the upper hand. How fucking ignorant, easy and predictable! I agree she is hard working and ambitious, more so than most. But I am also sure if she were a black woman no matter how attractive, ambitious or hard-working she is, she would have been dismissed years ago, because if your black and you ain't got much raw talent your definetly wouldn't be revered in the same way Madonna is and seen as an icon in the same way. Eve Again, I have to bring up Diana Ross. The woman DOES NOT have a powerhouse voice. She has a pretty voice that can carry a tune yes. But she cannot do vocal acrobats, nor can Madonna. On top of that, Diana doesn't even co write nor co produce her own material yet she became a pop culture icon in her own right. The difference is, Diana was safe. She didn't push boundaries and she didn't offend people. She recorded the songs that were written for her, starred in her movies and went on her way. She wasn't trying to convey any messages through her work or image like Madonna. Since we are playing devil's advocate and assuming that IF Madonna were black she wouldn't be as revered as she is. And let's face it we can what if all day long...so I'll join. What if Madonna were a man and accomplished all the things she's accomplished? Do you think the article would relegate her to a "cabaret act"? Do you think she would've caught all the flak she caught in the 80's and 90's for pushing boundaries? Prince was essentially doing the same things with his sexed up routines and yes he got SOME flak but nowhere near the criticisms Madonna received. Also, it's not uncommon for people to refer to Madonna as a conniving, manipulative, calculating BITCH. If she were a man she would be seen as brilliant. Even when she tries to do something good by adopting a dying child it's seen as a publicity stunt and she's called a kidnapper. Even when she got pregnant with her daughter back in '96 people accused her of doing it just for publicity. Did they say that about MJ when he chose to have children? Or Prince when he had his child around the same time when his career wasn't at it's peak? I think not. | |
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On the subject of the cowed media overlooking Madonna's dreadfulness, I present.....
http://prince.org/msg/8/261099 “The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
- Thomas Jefferson | |
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midnightmover said: On the subject of the cowed media overlooking Madonna's dreadfulness, I present.....
http://prince.org/msg/8/261099 According to her detractors she has little to nothing to do with the creation of her music so why blame her for her oh so awful lyrics? | |
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Tuls101 said: midnightmover said: On the subject of the cowed media overlooking Madonna's dreadfulness, I present.....
http://prince.org/msg/8/261099 According to her detractors she has little to nothing to do with the creation of her music so why blame her for her oh so awful lyrics? There is no doubt Madonna has been writing her own lyrics for some time now. No-one else could come up with anything that bad.  “The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
- Thomas Jefferson | |
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midnightmover said: Tuls101 said: According to her detractors she has little to nothing to do with the creation of her music so why blame her for her oh so awful lyrics? There is no doubt Madonna has been writing her own lyrics for some time now. No-one else could come up with anything that bad. I think I'm clear now. She had nothing to do with her great song lyrics but she was sole creator of the songs where her lyrics weren't so strong. I got it!  | |
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Tuls101 said: midnightmover said: There is no doubt Madonna has been writing her own lyrics for some time now. No-one else could come up with anything that bad. I think I'm clear now. She had nothing to do with her great song lyrics but she was sole creator of the songs where her lyrics weren't so strong. I got it! Madonna's lyrics have almost all been awful now for years. One exception was "Tell Me" which was largely written by her brother in law. “The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
- Thomas Jefferson | |
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midnightmover said: Tuls101 said: I think I'm clear now. She had nothing to do with her great song lyrics but she was sole creator of the songs where her lyrics weren't so strong. I got it! Madonna's lyrics have almost all been awful now for years. One exception was "Tell Me" which was largely written by her brother in law. It's called "Don't Tell Me" actually but of course she had little to do with that as it's one of her good songs. I'm very clear now on how Madonna operates as a songwriter now...thanks for your insight! After 18 years of Madonna fandom I've seen the light on what a sham she is. Everything that has been good was due to her collaborators and everything bad has been because of her...even if she was co writer/producer on those tracks too. Again...thanks for your clarification on things. | |
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Tuls101 said: midnightmover said: Madonna's lyrics have almost all been awful now for years. One exception was "Tell Me" which was largely written by her brother in law. It's called "Don't Tell Me" actually but of course she had little to do with that as it's one of her good songs. I'm very clear now on how Madonna operates as a songwriter now...thanks for your insight! After 18 years of Madonna fandom I've seen the light on what a sham she is. Everything that has been good was due to her collaborators and everything bad has been because of her...even if she was co writer/producer on those tracks too. Again...thanks for your clarification on things.I'm glad you got there eventually.  “The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
- Thomas Jefferson | |
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midnightmover said: Tuls101 said: It's called "Don't Tell Me" actually but of course she had little to do with that as it's one of her good songs. I'm very clear now on how Madonna operates as a songwriter now...thanks for your insight! After 18 years of Madonna fandom I've seen the light on what a sham she is. Everything that has been good was due to her collaborators and everything bad has been because of her...even if she was co writer/producer on those tracks too. Again...thanks for your clarification on things.I'm glad you got there eventually. Better late than never huh? Shall we organize a Madonna CD burning while chanting "MADONNA SUCKS!!!" | |
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Tuls101 said: midnightmover said: I'm glad you got there eventually. Shall we organize a Madonna CD burning while chanting "MADONNA SUCKS!!!" I'd love to. Only problem is I threw out most of my Madonna CDs years ago. “The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
- Thomas Jefferson | |
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