TheCrucialExperience said:

Please! I don't think you're giving the people on this website enough credit. There are plenty of people intelligent enough and more than capable of reasoned discussion to talk about race issues. Naturally, people come from different backgrounds having had different experiences, and therefore perhaps some are more informed than others, but again I think there are enough smart people on this site to take all this into consideration and be able to have meaningful discussions about race.

I live on this earth too. How could I not be qualified to talk about race?

Rhondab said:

It all depends on the individual, so rather than doctors trying to keep the ethnicity of a face they're trying to make subtile chances and keep as many of the original features. If a mixed race person steps into their office, what "ethnic" features would a face like that have? Do they have something in their text book saying "these are the features of a mixed race person"?

What you're doing is talking about stereotypes. Think about this, if a white person would assume all black people have big lips, you would say that's ignorant and maybe even racist, but it's okay for you to basically say the same.

Fauxie said:

You're white.

RepoMan said:

Larger lips and a wider nose are stereotypical features of black people. Yes, that's a stereotype, but we're talking about sheer frequency here rendering a stereotype into existence not through ignorance or racism but fact! It's not to say that all black people have these features, and it's not to say that's what Rhondab is saying, I believe.

RepoMan said:

and of course....

Fauxie said:

Thanks Fauxie...that's actually what I was saying. Repo Man is on some odd attack with me for some reason.

And Fauxie, you can speak on this topic just like anyone else.

RepoMan said:

Yes, I'm white. What is it exactly about being white that means I'm unqualified to talk about race? If I concede to your need to segregate people into races then I must assert that I am of a race and surely am therefore entitled and qualified to discuss the issue of race.

Fauxie said:

RepoMan's sarcasm is lost on you, I see.

Rhondab said:

Thanks!

RepoMan said:

Of course it depends on the individual. You're really trying to find some fault with me huh? Keep trying....post after post...you've been on some bs.

sociopath said:

its lost on most of us.

sociopath said:

Yep, he really got me there. I didn't spot where the ignorant argument ended and the sarcastic cop-out began.

Fauxie said:

So a black person should not get a smaller nose through plastic surgery simply because most black people have a wider one? A surgeon does not think in stereotypes when he's drawing the lines on a patient's face before surgery. He's looking at that particular face, not the face of the majoirty of black people.

Rhonda was talking about a doctor trying to keep the ethnicity of a face, I say that's bullshit. Ethnicity is not the issue as not all people from the same race have the same facial features. Also in the case of mixed race people, how would a surgeon decide which features are "allowed" to change to what degree? Which facial features belong to which race? If a patient was half black, half white, would that mean he or she could have a big nose or big lips because they're half black after all, even if that wouldn't suit their face?

For the record, I think it's a shame what Lil Kim has done to herself. I don't consider her a disgrace to anyone, even to humans in general, as I understand that everything she has done to herself has been within the law and therefore she is able to do whatever she wishes with her face and her body. However, as a human being I do find her actions regretable. I really don't think it's my right to take any moral stance about plastic surgery, skin colouring and whatnot, though as her choices are not ones I would make myself, I certainly wouldn't endorse or encourage what she's done. Ultimately, I just wonder what psychological issues might be involved in leading someone to do this.

Rhondab said:

I could care less about you, but you're talking nonsense, so that's what I'm replying to. If you were making sense I'd say I agree and that would be it. Don't make yourself more important in this discussion than you really are. It's not like you are the only person on this thread I replied to.

RepoMan said:

Cuz I am important.



And actually some doctors DO think about ethncity in nose jobs, etc. And yes it is on an individual basis but it does occur. So stop trying imply something I'm not even really saying.

Here's what I want to know...why isn't Kim's slutty and criminal behavior more troublesome to you than any of this? Isn't her immorality more detrimental to youth (if you really believe she is a role model) than her physical appearance?

Rhondab said:

As far as I know they typically do, right? Of course, if the patient says they want three nostrils there will always be some surgeon who'll do it if the money's good. If it's a mixed-race patient? I'm not sure. But what relevance has that here? We're talking specifically about a black woman getting a nose job that some people consider gives her a 'white' nose. Honestly, I'm not so sure that a black woman getting a thinner nose is necessarily an act of trying to be white. Sure, using the assumption that black people have wider noses and white people thinner ones, a black woman getting a thinner nose is getting one more akin to a white person. Still, just a nose operation in this manner in isolation does not go so far as 'trying to be white' in my opinion. Perhaps the majority consider a thin nose to be most desirable, and white people tend to have thinner noses, but I still think it's a stretch. Now changing skin colour is another matter altogether.

Here are a couple of sites that talk about just what I was mentioning. The issue isn't an issue that only black ppl deal with. Asians have this same debate in regards to "westernizing" their eyes...some jewish people wanting to look less "jewish".....


I wasn't just saying this because it sounded right but it occurs. Doctors do consider ethnicity. I don't even know what the argument is really about.

Oh yeah, Repoman said I was on some bullshit with my statement and being stereotypical.....

There's more links regarding this...if you want me to post them.

http://www.mynippon.com/b...plasty.htm



http://www.ezinearticles....n&id=65275

- Ethnic rhinoplasty

As with any rhinoplasty the goal is to create something that will work harmoniously with the patients face. With an ethnic rhinoplasty it is important to retain and incorporate that persons ethnicity into the final nose.

Fauxie said:

Actually Fauxie, I think I'm really addressing the entire package, not just a nose job but Lil kim's overall look and behavior even. Ok, if it was just the blonde weave. I wouldn't care. Just even a nose job. I would say...she has issues and keep it moving....but this chick has major issues. First of all, it is insecurity but all insecurities stem from something. That's all I'm saying.

Hell, I'm the one who defended Beyonce's weaved ass and Ciara's ole shemale ass.


~singin'.....you're just ah wanna-be....wanna-be better than me!~


damn....i'mma go rent School Daze
[Edited 9/25/05 13:53pm]

It's interesting that you mention Asians. I suppose it'd be easy to assume that dark-skinned women from S.E. Asia who use skin-lightening products are trying to be white (ie. caucasion). Oddly enough though, in Thailand the goal is to achieve the skin colour of a naturally light-skinned Chinese woman. Such light skinned Asians have very light skin which is lighter than all but the lightest skinned caucasions, meaning it could be erroneous to suggest it's a race issue relating to a desire to look caucasion. Of course, that's not to say that the light skinned Chinese people aren't revered because their skin is similar in colour to caucasions. I'm just not sure that's definitely all it's about.

Could this have relevance to black people lightening their skin? There are black people with very dark skin and some with light skin and then there's everything in between. All are as 'black' as each other. If a black person with darker skin desires to have lighter skin could they not be simply trying to achieve the lighter colour of light-skinned black people simply because they find it attractive? Or is that just about the limitations of how white a black person could typically be (without extreme measures)? Light skinned black people are not born trying to be white, they're just born. Is it really about a complete race change or just an albeit drastic aesthetic change? You have to wonder at the reasons why people would want to do this, but then why get full body tattoos? Why are the governments of Asian countries trying to change the diets of kids in school to make the next generations several inches taller? Are they trying to be Western or is height just a desired attribute? I know it's a slightly different topic, but it came to mind so I brought it up.

...
[Edited 9/25/05 8:18am]

Rhondab said:

I understand, and I agree. I was skipping the blonde weave, even the contacts, because those simple style changes don't equate to 'trying to be white' in my opinion. I was moving on to the nose.

I think the whole package with the temporary changes, the nose job and skin lightening certainly betrays some pretty significant psychological issues. You're really talking about an individual and their own personal issues, I believe, although as she is a role model of sorts you have to wonder at the influence she might have on others. Ultimately I think the most important thing is just on a personal level specific to her trying to understand why she's doing this as I can't see something positive coming out of all this.

sociopath said:

thats not the POINT! i myself have a weave in my hair, have straightened my hair, have had fake nails and would have plastic surgery if i could afford it. does that mean i am unhappy with my race or skin color? NO.
but some of those thing mixed with LIGHTENING ur skin points to something other than wanting to look cute and enhancing urself. all the things u listed are pretty much irrelevant to this convo, cuz the point of this thread is HER SKIN COLOR and HOW ITS CHANGED, first and foremost. the hair, surgery and contacts are SECONDARY and ONLY relevant because of the SKIN CHANGE

RepoMan said:

I ain't going down that road with you. I've said my piece.

VanitySixx said:

As a black woman, I'm so emotionally exhausted by this thread, that I can't even coherently contribute.

But let me just say ... that I loved reading the comments from Repoman, VanitySixx ... and a few from Novabreaker and Sassybritches.

I am so thankful to read someone who can view these changes through another lens besides the "black racial self-hatred" lens.

It is true that traditional Negroid features have been condemned by whites and even strategically so during slavery and afterwards. Then they were condemned by both white and blacks. The residue of that remains today.... but it doesn't motivate every aesthetic action.

Can humans who are black just experminent with different looks just like everybody else? Damn. Even if it's taken to the extreme, does it have to be about rejecting the black race? Can it be about some other psychosis or maybe just a renegade fuck-you-Nature stance?

Black women do not go around pining jealously over white women as the epitome of beauty, even though some black men do and many pedestal-clinging white women love believing this..

Black women seeking enhancements aren't all trying to look white-- even if it's a hair color, texture, nose, lips, or eye color that originated with the white race.. They are creating the look that coaxes and maximizes whatever they were born with into its highest potential. When Madonna does it it's call creative reinvention even down to the English tongue.



I've read lots of studies that praise black woman for high self-esteem, saying they are more comfortable with their bodies then women of other ethnicities.


Yet, threads like this suggest black women with embellishments are insecure and self-hating. There are white teens who get mutliple surgeries as graduation gifts. There are people who dust on skin bronzers everyday. Stop pushing the image of black woman as a tragic, unwanted figure forced to morph into another race to be happy. This is damaging. Should black women just wear cornrows, braids, dreads, afros -- all in black or dark brown hue, of course -- and stick with whatever features they were born with despite the fact that man has created surgical ways to transcend the restrictions of nature and evolution. One can argue tightly curled hair patterns and extreme melanin are no longer urgent for survival in this climate and so are optional to keep or alter.

In the future, tranformations like Lil' Kims may be as commonplace as people straightening their hair. And it may have nothing to do with hating blackness but about harnessing Nature/evolution by the mighty hand of Man.

Defying Nature's imposed rules/aesthetics has always been a pursuit of Man ... even devilishly so with eugenics and designer babies. If humans could control future beauty from the zygote, they would. And with cloning possible, that may be the future reality... This is a human obsession, not a black one.

sociopath said:

There is something called ethnic rhinoplasty, I personally know people who had rhinoplasty to look more caucasian. I would like one so my nose would look less severe as I get older, but I don't mind so much that I don't have the little cute perky button nose, I just see it as purely cosmetic not something with which to change my identity.

SynthiaRose said:

All of this is well said and I would completely agree if we where talking about black women in general. The topic is about a woman who has even said she wants to look like Pamela Anderson and in my opinion, has issues with herself. So it is really less about the act itself but the movitation behind it. We all seek out a standard of beauty that we are comfortable with but that doesn't negate the fact that there are issues in regards to self-hatred that some do have. I don't think its a narrow point of view to say that in this case there seems to be something going. Not just cosmetic but something else.

I think there have been some very relevant arguments for and against. I just think that when you can still have a dark skinned black girl think she would be more pretty if she was lighter, you can't just blow this issue off. And that black girl is my teenage cousin who has issues with being dark. Maybe I'll tell her to get some bleaching cream and go for it. Its just a cosmetic thing, right.
[Edited 9/25/05 16:06pm]

Rhondab said:

When I was a teacher in a urban school. I was privy to an interesting comment about me. Two teens were passing by and one said to the other ..."She's fine." And the other replied "Naw, she's too dark."

If I had a dollar for everytime someone has suggested I was dark BUT cute (as if it's a contradiction) or some other shit like that, I'd be rich.

Thankfully, I do not have low self-esteem. Because all through my life, I would just say 'fuck them,' Next! When I was in elementary school I would pray to be lighter (I can't even believe I'm saying this). Lightskin was used as a synonym for pretty. If I guy were describing a girl he liked for instance, he'd say 'She's light-skinned with long hair" and it would be understood that she was 'pretty' (if you look at the various 'race-mixing creates the most beautiful babies' threads on this site, it's clear that mentality still exists) or the girls in the 80s would rave over the light skinned boy with the Jherri curl like el debarge. By the time I got to middle school, I was over that obsession. I was in love with myself.

The distaste for all things Negro is so ingrained with some people that I can't deny racial/color prejudice exists when it comes to beauty. And that of course can breed a resistance to embracing your ethnicity.

I'm not saying it's always just cosmetic. I guess each case has to be evaluated on its own merits.

I feel for girls like your cousin.... I'd give her Wallace Thurman's "The Blacker the Berry." I cried all through that book. But if that didn't help her and she bleached (like the girl in the book tried to do and fucked up her beautiful skin)...well, it would be prerogative to get rid of what she perhaps viewed as the one undesirable feature she was born with. Just like people getting rid of their noses, lips, etc. If would be sad, nonetheless.


I just bristle about black women being described as pursuing white beauty. It's insulting to me. Black women might be pursing another version of blackness, I mean African American features are pretty diverse. I guess some say what they are not born with, they'll create.
[Edited 9/25/05 16:24pm]

Omg.....if I had a dollar for everytime I heard "you're cute to be so dark" I'd be hella rich. OR, you'd be cute if you get a relaxer...cut your locs.


It just sucks that in 2005 all this is still happening. Another interesting situation happens with my daugther who is light skinned. Because her dad lives in another state, most have only seen me (he's dark brown too though). When ppl first meet her, they assume she's bi-racial. She tells them that both her parents are black. At one point, she was so pissed at the question, she told this one girl, who didn't believe her, "you know its ok just to be just black, right". I thought that was so interesting for her to say. I'd asked her why was she so upset by the question. She said ppl ask the question as if means she is something specialif she's bi-racial and she's something special with just being good ol black Sydney. She said that they must have some issues to even ask her the question.




I definitely agree with your last post.

synthiarose i understand where ur comming from in ur two posts and agree with many of the points made and yes i (and probly everyone who responded to this thread)

knows that

. everyone knows that black people come in every shade of the rainbow,
my thing is, ok she might not be trying to be white, but like u said pursuing another version a blackness, a LIGHTER version of blackness. think about what kind of message that sends out. thats my point and i think the point of many. she might not be trying to be white, but its seems she aint pleased with being dark either