ehuffnsd said:

Fever is just glam slam Europop, the way it's always been.

VoicesCarry said:

Fever and Body Language owe a great deal to the success of Madonna turning electronica into pop.

SassyBritches said:

you haven't listened to Older and Patience closely enough then, if you think that the uptempo songs sound the same production-wise. you too, Voices.

Ray of Light was massively influential to the sound of pop music. It seemed to me that it was the first successful attempt at that hybrid of electronica and pop and its effects still resonate today. Although they definitely forge their own sound and tone, Fever and Body Language do owe a lot of their success (much less in the case of BL) to the blueprint of Ray of Light. Britney wouldn't have a career without Madonna- let's face it, and her brand of pop quickly started to show the evidence of the ROL blueprint as well. I don't know the George Michael albums in question well enough to make an assessment.

Moonbeam said:

i don't know the numbers but i'm fairly sure that u2's POP was a commercial success. i know it was panned by critics and purists alike, but it was electronic europop at its finest and i'm sure it sold millions of copies. how do we know this record didn't influence these artists? how are we coming to a conclusion that it was madonna who did the influencing? george michael is a european artist...i doubt madonna's attempts at europop influenced him anymore than ALL of the music around him. the same goes for kylie minogue. and i still don't here any ray of light influence in britney's in the zone cd.

Tessa said:

you're right.



everyone looks to madonna for production styles. she influences all. nevermind that SHE uses producers (producers who are, eh hem, from the UK - as is george - and part of the whole european sound) to make her sound.

so, just placating you for a second...besides the 3 pop stars you've mentioned (two of which have not had much recent commercial success in the states), who are these supposed artists who copied madge's ray of light style. george and kylie have not been too successful in the US so their copying madonna's sound doesn't support your argument that madonna created a trend. give me some commercially successful artists that followed this trend.

SassyBritches said:

Cher.

GangstaFam said:

one does not a trend make, however.

SassyBritches said:

Ya know, I don't even see any Ray Of Light in Cher's work, 1998 and beyond. She was doing dance pop, which was a craze at the time.

I don't see ROL as trendsetting. Still good though.

"The Velvet Rope [Virgin, 1997]
Why do I believe that this self-made object's mild kink and coyly matter-of-fact bisexuality are functions of flesh pure and simple? That for her sex really is about pleasure rather than power--or even, except as a side issue, love? Because her sex songs are flavorful where her love songs are all cliche, and because her much-berated fluting little-girl timbre whispers innocence even when she's loosening her new friend's pretty French gown. So in the absence of total personal fulfillment, here's hoping she retains her ability to feign delight, to fool herself as well as everyone else. A-"

Robert Christgau.

Ray of light hits you harder on first listen, Its truly original stuff, but you seem to get sick of it quicker, (this could be due to compulsive listens)
Velvet rope is the one that last longer, it seems to sound better with age...

Vote - Velvet Rope

VoicesCarry said:

I think the comparisons are pretty obvious. It's about as daring as Cher's gonna be, which in this case happened to be "Ray of Light" lite.

GangstaFam said:

Cher was only ever daring in a sartorial sense.

VoicesCarry said:

That's what I'm saying.

GangstaFam said:

I know, hence the

VoicesCarry said:

All I know is that she was terrified to make a dance record and that she had to be persuaded that it'd work. Not that the music itself is edgy, but the decision to use that style at all I think was a big move for her personally at age 53.

GangstaFam said:

"Fuck it, may as well give it a shot since nothing else is working."

-Cher

VoicesCarry said:

Is that what she said?

GangstaFam said:

I think she's said that at more than one point in her career. No wonder she's always been so successful.

Velvet Rope. ROL is to artsy spacey. I only listen to it for 3 songs. VR however is a more consistent listening pleasure. It's "warmer" than ROL imo.

Without a Doubt: Velvet Rope!

This is one of Janet's best albums! Full albums, everything flows well & you dont have to skip any tracks! Plus this was really her last honest album! Everything since has been a "blueprint" of the happy janet-filler albums.

It seems Janet really did need Renee! Since he has left she has done personality life growing albums & new artist visual styles.


Even though, I like these last 2 albums, they are not as personal as RN,Janet,VP

SassyBritches said:

William orbit once said of madonna, and i dont think hes the only producer to say this, that she produced him producing her, which i can actually imagine. no doubt she uses producers to get her where she wants to get at that point, but i think this is what has made her work stand out from those considered her contemporaries. It is varied and very rarely do two records sound the same.

I dont reckon ray of light was that influential in the long term. It was a radical move for madonna, and no one expected it. bringing in william orbit was a brave and confident step by her, and showed she knew exactly where she wanted to take her music, but i can only think of a few minor artists that it influenced.I dont think it influenced george Michael at all, and whilst i think cher and Kylie will have taken inspiration from the way madonnas career was revitalised by a european dance sound, i think they took their music in a different purely pop direction. There is something a little avante garde about ray of light and i hear none of that in their work.

Artists who blatantly tried to rip it off were the likes of All Saints, Mel C and possibly Pink, and they did so by hiring william orbit. Also could i just say that America is not the be all and end all of music. Just because something isnt successful in america doesn't mean it cant me commercially successful or a successful trend. If we were to reverse your logic and say the same about Europe, many american acts in the billboard charts would be deamed complete flops.

I must say, I find Kylie's Dance/Electronic albums far more appealing than Madge's - ha, I even think the title track to The Velvet Rope was inspired by Confide In Me. Her B-Sides and album leftovers are much better too. It's a shame she went back to straight up Pop, but I guess she wouldn't have had the chance to come back if she didn't. I was so happy with Body Language, I couldn't believe it didn't do that well.

Anyway, sorry for going off topic.

CrozzaUK said:

its been almost ten years of madonna records sounding the same. at what point does "very rarely" become "her sound?"

CrozzaUK said:

well, i live in the states. i can't speak too much for music in the uk one way or another. all i can say about it is that the sound on madonna's records was being heard in the uk long before madonna did it. i doubt those acts that used the sound after madonna were copying her. more likely, they were copying the acts that madonna copied.

SassyBritches said:[quote]

its been almost ten years of madonna records sounding the same. at what point does "very rarely" become "her sound?"

[quote]

I never said it was her sound. Who owns a sound? What i am saying is that madonnas records always sound different to the last (perhaps the only exception being American Life which sounded the same as Music to my ears).

I think on the whole i was agreeing with what you were saying, that Ray Of Light didn't really have that great an influence on other artists in terms of its sound. It was more influential in that Madonna was seen to use a typically non-pop form of music to re-launch herself, and many other artists followed suite, not so much in using the same style, but changing their own style. Kylie definitely followed suite, as did Cher, and I seem to recall Gloria Estefan trying it also.

My reason for highlighting your comments about them not being commercially successful because they weren't so in amreica, is that very few artists are as successful on both sides of the atlantic. Using your logic only once an act popular in america starts copying madonna does it become a trend! That doesn't really hold true. Many trends and fashions in music occur with america completely oblivious to them. Similarly many trends occur in america that do not spread to the wider world.

Do I think ROL spurned a trend, yes in the sense that it persuaded certain artists to pursue a rennaissance by shifting their musical styles, but not in the specific kind of music it embraced.

I can't even lisgen to all of "Ray of Light" I think it is a horrid CD.
But I love "Velvet Rope" and think all of the tracks are great.

Sunny mornings: Ray of Light

Dark nights: Velvet Rope

SassyBritches said:

Can you really imagine Britney and Kylie jamming out to Bono though ? I mean c'mon. Madonna obviously influenced these broads. At least give her that much. Britney can't get through an interview without mentioning Madonna.


And you know I'm going with Ray Of Light, though I love The Velvet Rope.

variety1317 said:

well the way i see it is like this. bjork gave madonna "bedtime story" and this was a very different sound for madge. she was obviously influenced by the whole electro euro thing going on at the time and proceeded to hire great producers who could give her new records that sound. if madonna could be influenced by these people why is it so hard to imagine that other people could also be influenced by these people?

i just don't see where madonna becomes the be all and end all of pop music.

and yeah, britney would go all sorts of divine and eat dog shit if madonna said it was cool. i believe that!